quote Originally posted by KeithGT: very complicated, but not dipped in anything.

Yippee...I own page 10 !!

If anyone wants their windows dipped, I will be offering the service for $50 per pair plus shipping. Once you get your windows from Lori, just ship them off to me and I'll dip each window in the "secret fluid" and ship them back within 5 days.



Randy


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Everyone thinks I'm psychotic,
except for my friends deep inside the earth.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-10-2007).]

Once you get your windows from Lori,
Then i'll think of it

Maybe we could all get together and get a 1,000 sets ordered. Then again it might just be wishfull thinking on my part!

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: i didn't bother to ask, seeing as how even if it were $50 - $100 a window that would be between $100,000 - $200,000 for 1000 sets...or were you planning on chipping in for those....

MsLori,

Had been following the thread but lost track of the latest status. Could you provide an up date? I'm interested in acquiring a set. I'll follow up with an email to get my name on the list.

Thanks for your effort and hard work in getting this product to the masses.

Mike

I know everyone wants an update, and deserves one. The truth is the molding shop messed up my whole order. They acknowledged they did and the person responsible for that has been removed from this project. The owner has called in the mold maker to try and understand why, and he felt the molds needed a little modification. I have been waiting for that and they are supposed to run a couple sets next week for me to inspect, hopefully everything will be fine at that time. I have several thousand dollars into this project, and would never consider scamming anyone, but I also won't except windows that are less than I promised. I know this has taken way to long, and I appreciate everyone's patience, although I do know this is very frustrating, and I am probably frustrated more than anyone, but I am in to deep to cancel it, I would loose a lot of money, on top of keeping my word,and my reputation, which is very important to me. I have been keeping a low profile and have been trying to give the molding shop the time they asked for to produce the windows they promised. Also since some people insist the factory windows were dipped, (they were not) and I don't know what dipping them will do to them and the graphics, I will not warranty any windows have are dipped or modified in any way once you receive them from me.

Lori

Lori I wouldn't warranty plastic windows in the first place. GM didn't.

quote Originally posted by MsLoriFiero: Also since some people insist the factory windows were dipped, (they were not) and I don't know what dipping them will do to them and the graphics, I will not warranty any windows have are dipped or modified in any way once you receive them from me. Lori

I hope everyone realizes that my offer to dip windows was a joke.
One would have thought that my mentioning the "secret fluid" would have been a giant tip-off.

There is no practical, functional or rational reason that I, as an engineer that deals with polymers almost every day, can think of that dipping in some sort of mystery liquid would in any way enhance acrylic / polycarbonate windows in any way.

If someone can tell me precisely *what* the original windows were supposedly dipped in, I'll be happy to reconsider, but at this point I find the notion of such a process highly suspicious.

Randy

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-10-2007).]

quote Originally posted by randye: If anyone wants their windows dipped, I will be offering the service for $50 per pair plus shipping. Once you get your windows from Lori, just ship them off to me and I'll dip each window in the "secret fluid" and ship them back within 5 days.

I know once lori gets my set out and I open them up in awe, I hope I dont get secret fluid on them

quote Originally posted by randye: I hope everyone realizes that my offer to dip windows was a joke. One would have thought that my mentioning the "secret fluid" would have been a giant tip-off.

I guess I read though your post to quickly to realize you were joking, my apologies.

Lori

quote Originally posted by MsLoriFiero: I guess I read though your post to quickly to realize you were joking, my apologies. Lori

No apologies necessary Lori.

You have you hands full and attention focused on a huge project and I for one respect the hell out of your determination.

I was simply attempting to apply a little humor to this "dipping" nonsense.

Randy

quote Originally posted by randye: I was simply attempting to apply a little humor to this "dipping" nonsense. Randy

Which we (at least myself) could use.

Lori

MsLori your update sounds extremely promising, I can imagine the frustration you have, being as deep into this as you are. With all your stubborn will to make this shop get it right I have no doubt these windows will be the nothing short of show quality, and I look forward to sending you a payment when they are ready.

Thank you for the Update!

edit: what the heck is with this dipping business anyway?! I for one want to know what the "Secret Fluid" is

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 02-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: I for one want to know what the "Secret Fluid" is

Then it wouldn't be secret anymore would it?

Randy

------------------
Everyone thinks I'm psychotic,
except for my friends deep inside the earth.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-11-2007).]

I think the secret fluid would be spelled g -a- -r- -a- -g- e

10 pages....at this rate I might have money to consider a set when they are ready. Currently, my money is going towards bringing my girlfriend here from South America. Since she wants a pink car....is pink a tint choice

Brian

Hey Randy, do you think dipping my old cracked windows will make them look new again or should I get in line for new ones. Cmon, be honest now, I know ya wanta dip em.
Dave

When I first read the "Secret Formula" post by Randye I was a little uncertain if he was serious or not. Here's the ingredient list for this magic fluid:

5 gallons tap water
1 tablespoon alum
eye of knute
tuft of cats hair
1 drop of log cabin maple syrup

$50.00 plus shipping.

OK, I'm back in my office today and accesed some of my reference materials and it seems that..

There actually IS a dipping process for acrylic or polycarbonate polymer products.

I ran across reference to a process called "LIQUA-TEMP"
From what I can discern, I believe it consists of basically a hot glycerine bath to ANNEAL COLD WORKED ACRYLIC
That would be stress relieving the part after it has been machined, cold formed or punched. The temp of the bath is just below the Tg of the material and after "dipping" for a certain period of time the part is then cooled slowly, (approx. 2 hours or more back down to ambient)

NOW...since MsLori's windows are, I assume, being thermoformed and since the Tg of the (let's just presume Lexan material), is of course being exceeded, then such a process as "LIQUA-TEMP" would be pointless. (Thermoforming is not a cold work process)

Before it comes up, let me say that simply trimming some excess material from the periphery of the windows is NOT enough to induce any appreciable stress into the windows.

I believe that Lori is on exactly the right path with her project from what I can tell. The quarter windows should be well worth the wait.

If anyone still insists on having their windows dipped, I'll keep an extra drum of secret fluid on hand for you

Randy

MsLori, Kudos to you for the integrity you have displayed during this process.

Actually, trimming any excess is exactly what causes the cracks. Well some of them anyway.
Most rigid plastics suffer from a phenomenon known as "crack propagation", in crude terms it's the plastic equivalent of metal fatigue. Minute cracks on the edges, (or on the surface), 'grow' over time as the material is stressed. The stress is heating/cooling, flexing, vibration, impact, etc, the perfect environment to experience all of those is being bonded onto a vehicle.
To reduce CP, any trimmed plastic should be polished to minimise surface imperfections. That's quite a time consuming process to do it properly. Even then there will always be microscopic cracks ready to spring to life. It'll just take a bit longer.
Some of the posters to this thread are right, the fact the panel is bonded on circumferentially is a contributory factor to it cracking. The thermal coefficient of expansion on the chassis, body and panel are all different, they all expand and contract at different rates. This is one of the reasons a lot of the cracks are concentrated in the mid section of the panel, it's subjected to the most stress. Plastic expands much more than metal at the temps it's subjected to, and at a significantly faster rate, the panel will bow outwards fractionally under that stress, compressive stress. On cooling, or severely low temps, it's likely to flatten slightly, tension, or tensile stress. As the chassis twists on the road, (and yes it does twist/flex, anyone who maintains it doesn't is deluded), or as it (the chassis) contracts/expands unevenly due to heating/cooling, it'll be subjected to a mixture of shear/compressive/tensile stress. It's actually a wonder the panels hold up as well as some of them do.
If you're thinking "wait a minute how does that create cracks that aren't right out to the edges?" then it's simple, there's been a tiny crack on the surface somewhere. It's not unlike the crack on a windscreen that grows as you drive. That's also why the drivers side is more affected, when you park, the drivers side is exposed to passing traffic, the debris bouncing off the side of the car causes the damage. As I say, the crack or imperfection can/does start from the microscopic level, so there's not a lot you can do unless you want to spend all your time lokking at plastic under a microscope. And by polishing, I mean the same sort of lathe used for polishing metal, though with different abrasives/compounds obviously, so once the sidepanel is on the car you're kinda stuffed.

And that's before we get into age related cross-linking, leaching of plasticisers, inbuilt stress due to a cold former/fractionally insufficient heating, etc.


iain

quote Originally posted by Iain: Actually, trimming any excess is exactly what causes the cracks. Well some of them anyway. Most rigid plastics suffer from a phenomenon known as "crack propagation", in crude terms it's the plastic equivalent of metal fatigue. Minute cracks on the edges, (or on the surface), 'grow' over time as the material is stressed. The stress is heating/cooling, flexing, vibration, impact, etc, the perfect environment to experience all of those is being bonded onto a vehicle. To reduce CP, any trimmed plastic should be polished to minimise surface imperfections. That's quite a time consuming process to do it properly. Even then there will always be microscopic cracks ready to spring to life. It'll just take a bit longer. Some of the posters to this thread are right, the fact the panel is bonded on circumferentially is a contributory factor to it cracking. The thermal coefficient of expansion on the chassis, body and panel are all different, they all expand and contract at different rates. This is one of the reasons a lot of the cracks are concentrated in the mid section of the panel, it's subjected to the most stress. Plastic expands much more than metal at the temps it's subjected to, and at a significantly faster rate, the panel will bow outwards fractionally under that stress, compressive stress. On cooling, or severely low temps, it's likely to flatten slightly, tension, or tensile stress. As the chassis twists on the road, (and yes it does twist/flex, anyone who maintains it doesn't is deluded), or as it (the chassis) contracts/expands unevenly due to heating/cooling, it'll be subjected to a mixture of shear/compressive/tensile stress. It's actually a wonder the panels hold up as well as some of them do. If you're thinking "wait a minute how does that create cracks that aren't right out to the edges?" then it's simple, there's been a tiny crack on the surface somewhere. It's not unlike the crack on a windscreen that grows as you drive. That's also why the drivers side is more affected, when you park, the drivers side is exposed to passing traffic, the debris bouncing off the side of the car causes the damage. As I say, the crack or imperfection can/does start from the microscopic level, so there's not a lot you can do unless you want to spend all your time lokking at plastic under a microscope. And by polishing, I mean the same sort of lathe used for polishing metal, though with different abrasives/compounds obviously, so once the sidepanel is on the car you're kinda stuffed. And that's before we get into age related cross-linking, leaching of plasticisers, inbuilt stress due to a cold former/fractionally insufficient heating, etc. iain

But then the quarter windows are mounted to the car with FLEXIBLE FOAM TAPE which negates much of these tremendous stress forces you speak of.
By the way, this "CP", (crack propagation) you refer to is induced from a stress riser, and I'll stick by the contention that simple edge trimming is insufficient to create any appreciable residual stress or signifigant stress risers....unless of course you trimmed the windows with a fire axe......

Rather than let this devolve into an engineering pissing contest, I'll not respond further to this sort of discussion.

I take it you'll be wanting *your* windows "dipped" eh?

If you dip my Fiero in secret fluid will it be protected from impacts do to bird strikes and old ladys ???

nm

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 02-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by crazyhorse: If you dip my Fiero in secret fluid will it be protected from impacts do to bird strikes and old ladys ???

Just where the hell are you driving???!!
I had no idea that low altitude bird strikes were a big problem in TN, but then it is only in TN that I see 100 foot tall billboards along the highway advertising "COLD BEER & FIREWORKS"
(a real "party combo" if I ever saw one), so I suppose anything's possible.

I thought Old Ladies and poop birds were a common thing in florida?

quote Originally posted by Back On Holiday: I thought Old Ladies and poop birds were a common thing in florida?

Yes indeed they are, however they tend to congregate around bingo halls and tourists on the beach respectively.

quote Originally posted by randye: But then the quarter windows are mounted to the car with FLEXIBLE FOAM TAPE which negates much of these tremendous stress forces you speak of. By the way, this "CP", (crack propagation) you refer to is induced from a stress riser, and I'll stick by the contention that simple edge trimming is insufficient to create any appreciable residual stress or signifigant stress risers....unless of course you trimmed the windows with a fire axe...... Rather than let this devolve into an engineering pissing contest, I'll not respond further to this sort of discussion. I take it you'll be wanting *your* windows "dipped" eh?

LOL, Hilarious, don't know about a pissing contest, more of a piss take.

Since you're trying to sell a service I really would make good your promise and desist from any further posts on this particular discussion, they'll only make you look foolish.

Urine a class of one with your latter contention, as it goes against all accepted teaching, and every standard text/article I've ever read in over 25 yrs of working with plastics.

As for "tremendous" forces? really, you either didn't read or didn't understand what I wrote. The forces involved are tiny, but they are long term, multi event forces, the perfect stressors to damage a plastic material over time, and we are talking years here, the youngest Fiero are 19 yrs old for goodness sake.. Your further contention that the stressors involved are negated by foam tape are also spurious. It's applied circumferentially. It's yet another material, with yet another coefficient of expansion. Better yet it's partially elastic. Do I really have to spell it out as If I'm talking to one of my slowest students? The fact that the foam is an elastic material, with a slight memory effect no less, means that when the plastic expands/contracts at a different rate to the foam, then the foam will exert a tiny elastic force relative to the plastic. Especially when whatever is mounted on the the other side side of the foam expands/contracts.

I could go on, but I can't be arsed.

And no, I wouldn't have them dipped in anything, I would smooth and polish any areas that required it and leave it at that.

iain

quote Originally posted by Iain: Since you're trying to sell a service I really would make good your promise and desist from any further posts on this particular discussion, they'll only make you look foolish.

He said he was kidding about the dipping thing.

Josh

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"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Adam Savage

quote Originally posted by Iain: LOL, Hilarious, don't know about a pissing contest, more of a piss take. Since you're trying to sell a service I really would make good your promise and desist from any further posts on this particular discussion, they'll only make you look foolish. iain

I guess you did not read the part where he stated that it was a joke.
It's funny how some people are quick to jump in on something when they
don't read the whole post. Guess this went from Piss-to-Poop

quote I hope everyone realizes that my offer to dip windows was a joke. One would have thought that my mentioning the "secret fluid" would have been a giant tip-off.

And it doesn't give us any info of how thigs are going with the fab of these quarter windows

quote Originally posted by Iain: LOL, Hilarious, don't know about a pissing contest, more of a piss take. Since you're trying to sell a service I really would make good your promise and desist from any further posts on this particular discussion, they'll only make you look foolish. Urine a class of one with your latter contention, as it goes against all accepted teaching, and every standard text/article I've ever read in over 25 yrs of working with plastics. As for "tremendous" forces? really, you either didn't read or didn't understand what I wrote. The forces involved are tiny, but they are long term, multi event forces, the perfect stressors to damage a plastic material over time, and we are talking years here, the youngest Fiero are 19 yrs old for goodness sake.. Your further contention that the stressors involved are negated by foam tape are also spurious. It's applied circumferentially. It's yet another material, with yet another coefficient of expansion. Better yet it's partially elastic. Do I really have to spell it out as If I'm talking to one of my slowest students? The fact that the foam is an elastic material, with a slight memory effect no less, means that when the plastic expands/contracts at a different rate to the foam, then the foam will exert a tiny elastic force relative to the plastic. Especially when whatever is mounted on the the other side side of the foam expands/contracts. I could go on, but I can't be arsed. And no, I wouldn't have them dipped in anything, I would smooth and polish any areas that required it and leave it at that. iain

Who the hell is this guy...anyways, made me laugh a bit

quote "Urine" a class of one with your latter contention

Urine...pissing contest..such a clever pun, too bad it was misguided tho
I for one want the dipping procedure being offered, all this hype has got me wanting it!!!

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 02-14-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Iain: LOL, Hilarious, don't know about a pissing contest, more of a piss take. desist from any further posts on this particular discussion, they'll only make you look foolish. Urine a class of one Do I really have to spell it out as If I'm talking to one of my slowest students? I could go on, but I can't be arsed. iain

One of the clearest signs that someones argument is not based on firm footing is when they begin to engage in ad hominem attacks.

Were you really an experienced engineer, you would have immediately realized your injection of such logic fallacies into the discussion and constrained yourself to technical rhetoric.

Your continuing to pick at the nits of structural failure analysis of polymers does absolutely NOTHING to assist in the ultimate goal, which is Lori's successful completion and marketing of a much needed and desired product.

All that I can see that you have contributed thus far has been to create doubt and confusion about the eventual qualitty and performance of her product.
You stated that it is precisely the trimming which eventually leads to cracking of the windows. Perhaps with your astonishing insight you could also enlighten us as to exactly *how* Lori is having the windows trimmed?

I only initially posted, (in jest), about the "dipping" issue because I thought it was creating some irrational doubt and distraction about Lori's windows. I even went so far as to investigate the "dipping" matter and published what I discovered here.

Although I said I wouldn't engage in this type of discussion further, your personal assault forced me to respond this one and final time. I'll be happy to compare CVs and engineering knowledge and accomplishments with you OFF this thread and in PM with you, but my suspicion is that you are not an engineer and your claimed "25 years" of working with plastics probably consists of assembling Airfix models . Within 2 posts you've managed to turn this into what I feared would result. Nice work Jock.


From what I know about the windows Ms Lori is working so diligently to complete, I am certain that they will be a fne product and I am content to wait until she has them ready.

My apologies for the distraction in YOUR thread Lori.

Randy

Well spoken randye. For the sake of the progressive direction of this thread I am hoping Mr. Iain just drops it at that and does not drag this thread into the argumentative direction. For as you said, since there is no trimming in the process of Lori's windows, arguing this point further is not just ego flexing, but quite pointless as well.

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: Well spoken randye. For the sake of the progressive direction of this thread I am hoping Mr. Iain just drops it at that and does not drag this thread into the argumentative direction. For as you said, since there is no trimming in the process of Lori's windows, arguing this point further is not just ego flexing, but quite pointless as well.

None of all this dipping , chipping, cracking, trimming, coefficient of thermal expansion SPECULATION is helping Lori to get these windows done and sold.
I need them, We all need them.

My hope was that interjecting a little humor about the dipping would kill some time on this thread without all the bumping for progress reports,
(Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet?), as well as maybe doing my small part in helping to quash some unfounded concerns before they took root.

FieroMonkey you have a PM

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 02-14-2007).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: For as you said, since there is no trimming in the process of Lori's windows,

OK, time out

Actually, there is trimming involved in these windows,that was the problem at the molding shop, they trimmed off too much. The factory windows were cast into a mold, and didn't require trimming except the 2 tabs on the top edge. Anyone that has a factory window, look on the top edge, and you will see where the 2 tabs are cut off. (they all have it) Since I didn't have an extra $100,000. laying around to duplicate the same process that the factory windows were made with,we had to make them the best way available and these are thermoformed and then trimmed to fit.

I want to Thank everyone for their support and their input.

Ok, now ya'll can go back to whatever kind of contest you are having and in the meantime, I will go down to the molding shop tomorrow and see what the hold up is.

Lori

Lori
If i can help my offer stands .
As for the Dipping I was trapped in between two cars in a parking lot and from the left side a large Buick rear bumper tried to take my drivers door and for the bird strikes going home on a back road I had a Turkey tangle with the antenna and left a rather large Deposit on the windshield

quote Originally posted by crazyhorse: Lori If i can help my offer stands . As for the Dipping I was trapped in between two cars in a parking lot and from the left side a large Buick rear bumper tried to take my drivers door and for the bird strikes going home on a back road I had a Turkey tangle with the antenna and left a rather large Deposit on the windshield

Thanks Wayne, not sure if there is anything you could do right now, but if I find there is, I will be sure to let you know.
How is your car running?

Lori