quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Having an OEM Sail panel scanned dimensionally now into a computer format. Once we have and accurate 3D image for exact curvatures to original then we can start to see how many pieces can be made out of different size sheets. That is when I will actually be able to crunch some numbers. I don't see any problems yet and I have spoken to both the formers and the printers. They are excited about the project and since talking to them I have started another project not having to do with cars. This one will actually make money so even if these sailpanels are not worth doing I am really happy I looked into it. One thing is the originals seem to have a green tint (gives it a glass look) to them and to reproduce that it may need to be done in 30/30 Acrylic. Acrylic is hard and doesn't scratch like polycarb but it also can't take the impact polycarb can. Also found out that we should never use an alcohol based cleaner like windex to clean them. It enters the porous surface and causing the crazing or cracking we get.

green tint or not. if you can get the curves and the grafix right you have a winner and a bunch of frustrated ppl in this thread ready to buy. Please keep us posted and good luck. You may want to start a thread on this project of yours. Only thing i can recommend is dont take a single persons money until they are ready to go, as i am sure you saw it didnt work too well here.

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 02-18-2008).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: green tint or not. if you can get the curves and the grafix right you have a winner and a bunch of frustrated ppl in this thread ready to buy. Please keep us posted and good luck. You may want to start a thread on this project of yours. Only thing i can recommend is dont take a single persons money until they are ready to go, as i am sure you saw it didnt work to well her.

Well I am not starting a thread or promising anything. I am seriously figuring out what it takes and how much it costs. When I have that info I will either present a finished product that I think can sustain itself or not. No preorders, no promises, no money. I want these made as much as anyone here. I wish Lori would just get it together and get hers done. I have seen them and they are great. I don't stand to make any significant money that would make any difference to me. I just want them done and I should have started much sooner but I didn't out of respect.

I don't understand why everyone is having a hard time finding someone to silkscreen these.

I used to screen skateboards yrs ago for a big time skateboard company and they had as much curvature as the windows do.

I also have a friend who used to own his own silkscreen company. I don't think he would have a problem with these either.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Well I am not starting a thread or promising anything. I am seriously figuring out what it takes and how much it costs. When I have that info I will either present a finished product that I think can sustain itself or not. No preorders, no promises, no money. I want these made as much as anyone here. I wish Lori would just get it together and get hers done. I have seen them and they are great. I don't stand to make any significant money that would make any difference to me. I just want them done and I should have started much sooner but I didn't out of respect.

Pokeyfiero, That would be great !!

Regarding a basic product to come for a final sale, every issue should be dealt before any money, orders, etc, are taken. I think this was a big mistake that Lori did.I'm not saying it was bad, but this is why people are mad and trying to get a refund. Its nice to have news that someone is trying to reproduce / remanufacter these windows. But its seems that many people were just to excited to see it be made. And after this is what happends.

Before any product hits the market for sale, it should be ready & finalized. Maybe some samples for some "serious intended" buyers for some R&D. Then its time to advertize, take orders, and so on...

As for those who tested them can comment on the quality / appearance.

Just my 3 cents on marketing...

fierogt28

quote Originally posted by slickrick2000: I don't understand why everyone is having a hard time finding someone to silkscreen these. I used to screen skateboards yrs ago for a big time skateboard company and they had as much curvature as the windows do. I also have a friend who used to own his own silkscreen company. I don't think he would have a problem with these either.

Everyone is only Lori and someone is only two screen shops in AL. If you know a shop, do not keep it to your self, put your friend in contact with Lori (assuming she is indeed alive) and pokeyfiero. Thanks

[This message has been edited by SEGT-86 (edited 02-17-2008).]

We are making molds now. So far everthing is perfect and easy.

Total cost so far is zero. There are three stages to this and all people involved refuse to take any money until they produce their part to perfection and my approval.

After there is a pefect set of working molds it will move to the Thermomoulder for a test production set. Once this is acomplished the printer will print a few sheets out flat and have them sent back to be formed for another set of test production units. If all goes well they want to be paid for all this and actual production can start.

It is all to easy so far and that has me worried.

Good
to hear that , maybe we will be able to get these real ones . All the Gt's Fiero
needs them, well almost all .
Mine anyway .
Thing will be to get refund from Miss Lori .

[This message has been edited by Robert 2 (edited 02-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: We are making molds now. So far everthing is perfect and easy... It is all to easy so far and that has me worried.

It SHOULD be easy, when you work with professionals (which you've clearly done) and have a very clear goal and target in mind. If you DO run into an obstacle, leverage the full power of the Pennock brain trust. When Lori ran into problems, all she had to do was come to this group for help. Like someone said earlier, this group spans across the North American Continent, and Western Europe. I guarantee one of us could have located a printer that could handle the job. When people stop treating this as a community and instead just an opportunity for profit...trouble is sure to follow. The smart ones put profit second....a close second...but second!

Let this thread know if you run into any glitches. The demand on near perfect OEM GT windows is a no-brainer. Sounds like your a stickler for detail and high quality, so I'm sure these will turn out fantastic. I'll probably buy one set to install and a second set to tuck away for a rainy day...and I'm sure I won't be alone. Great leadership!

Blkcofy

Well said.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: ...three stages... Build a mold... and approve it... Use the mold to form the window... and approve it... Screen the dots onto a flat stock and then have it molded... and approve it...

Did I hear this correctly?

Here's why I ask... I thought that Lori had issues with the dots stretching if they were screened on before the forming took place. Therefore making the process more difficult by requiring the screening to be done after the molding process.

quote Originally posted by 2002z28ssconv: Did I hear this correctly? Here's why I ask... I thought that Lori had issues with the dots stretching if they were screened on before the forming took place. Therefore making the process more difficult by requiring the screening to be done after the molding process.

But couldn't the screener compensate for the stretch process such that it would be perfect once molded?

quote Originally posted by 2002z28ssconv: Did I hear this correctly? Here's why I ask... I thought that Lori had issues with the dots stretching if they were screened on before the forming took place. Therefore making the process more difficult by requiring the screening to be done after the molding process.

I brought up that issue with them already. I don't know what will happen. I won't know until we test one.

Well it looks like in about 10 to 15 days will be the no turn around point for me. At that time I will have paid for tooling and material and I will produce them if I go that far.
I am still hoping LORI comes in and says they are ready and everyone that paid gets theirs. I don't mind putting out the effort to do these but once I have real money involved there will be no turning back even if she gets her deal together.
I am interested in some input. The correct stock color of green tint is really only available in the Acrylic. These will not be injection molded they will be formed. There was mention in this thread before that something other than acrylic should be used but it seems to be the best choice to me. It is very hard to scratch though it is brittle. It should handle the sun and heat fine and as long as you don't use alcohol based cleaners on it it shouldn't craze or web crack like the originals tens to do. They should last as long as stock ones did at any rate. If any one has any suggestions I am all ears.

I got a question... How the hell do you get the windows to stick in place? I put the provided 3M double sided tape stuff on the car, pressed the window on, and then they pop off with the slightest of ease.

Is there a trick or another way to do this? I bought some of the Blems from lori a while ago. (The first batch that did not come out perfect)

Don't think Lori 's gonna ever get them done
I sent her a E-Mail for refund a week ago , never had any answer .
Think you should go ahead with your project .

quote Originally posted by skstibi: I got a question... How the hell do you get the windows to stick in place? I put the provided 3M double sided tape stuff on the car, pressed the window on, and then they pop off with the slightest of ease. Is there a trick or another way to do this? I bought some of the Blems from lori a while ago. (The first batch that did not come out perfect)

I bought sail panels off ebay with the tape. I just cleaned the surfaces with alcohol(I think) and applied the tape. I followed the instructions to apply in temperatures above 70 F and actually clamped the forward edge with Quickclamps overnight. No problems now for at least 6 months.

I will take a pair in blue tint with "Jay's GT" lettered in.

If Lori ever comes though I will compare them and install the best while selling the rest.

This concept shows a lot of potential. Perhaps with a little more detail work around the leading edge of the cutout this would be an excellent mod... to go with those steel cut outs that are in this thread....

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: ...I am still hoping LORI comes in and says they are ready and everyone that paid gets theirs. I don't mind putting out the effort to do these but once I have real money involved there will be no turning back even if she gets her deal together. I am interested in some input. The correct stock color of green tint is really only available in the Acrylic. It is very hard to scratch though it is brittle... If any one has any suggestions I am all ears.

My Vote is for Acrylic stock tint & I also hope Lori comes through at the last minute. If not carry on with the task at hand! Thanks

quote Originally posted by skstibi: I got a question... How the hell do you get the windows to stick in place? I put the provided 3M double sided tape stuff on the car, pressed the window on, and then they pop off with the slightest of ease. Is there a trick or another way to do this? I bought some of the Blems from lori a while ago. (The first batch that did not come out perfect)

I installed a set of Lori's blems last year and also was not able to use the two sided tape because most of the edges of the windows were not flat. However, I found a product that works great. If you use this stuff, you can also remove the windows fairly easily if necessary. It does not harden. Make sure the surfaces are clean. I got it at the local auto paint supply store. It's 3M Windo-Weld Ribbon Sealer Auto Glass Replacement Kit. Part No. 08611. It's a round bead 5/16". You can stretch it, flatten it, bend it - whatever it takes to make a nice clean installation.

------------------


87 GT, SBC, 5 Spd
Melbourne, FL

Great advice! Beautiful car!! + for YOU!!
Thanks
Nick

Hey Animal,

Have any more pictures of you car?

quote Originally posted by BMTFIERO: Hey Animal, Have any more pictures of you car?

Tons. Send me a PM and let me know if there is anything in particular you want to see and I will email to you.

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: green tint or not. if you can get the curves and the grafix right you have a winner and a bunch of frustrated ppl in this thread ready to buy. Please keep us posted and good luck. You may want to start a thread on this project of yours. Only thing i can recommend is dont take a single persons money until they are ready to go, as i am sure you saw it didnt work too well here.

Well curves is the issue. I don't know if it is needed to be this anal but for me I think the oem panels were a work of art. They were not just arced plastic. They were injection molded from someones original clay design. The sutle curves in the finished product catch the light just so.
You can see the difference even with Lori's panels next to originals. Through CMC standards we have gotten this model to 1.00/1000ths of an inch accuracy to original. Every dip and change of contour is measured and now recorded.

That model was used for the scans. It is digitized to the spec and female tooling is being made.

I don't think I can turn back now.I don't care if i sell any actually. That probably indicates more money than brains but I am having a blast learning all this stuff.
I have started another project making aeroponic chambers with what I have learned so far. The great thing about doing this digitally is once it is done I can have it made in any amounts needed anytime and pretty much anywhere they have the advanced equipment..
With white light laser capture it can be even more accurate and I will be able to reproduce almost any part for tooling. I can even create injection molds if I wanted to with this same data.

The guy I have doing the transfer from phisical to equation is really great. He really enjoys making perfection regardless of complication. He does this stuff for the airline industry and as I understand it he is one of a few elite guys in the field.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 03-15-2008).]

I used to scan profile like this or other forms on a Zeiss measuring machine
getting the data point by point , registering them and reproducing the shape within .0005 thousand of an inch
technology like that was not there in the 80's . Keep on going , even if i didn't received mine from ( we know who ) i might buy a set from you .

[This message has been edited by Robert 2 (edited 03-15-2008).]

I'm on board for a set. I got a set from the Fiero Warehouse and they never fit right. Standing by!

looking good!!

pokey...I think you may very well find that you have thrown yourself into the fiero window making business. This is fantastic!

quote Originally posted by blkcofy: pokey...I think you may very well find that you have thrown yourself into the fiero window making business. This is fantastic!

Yeah
Even if Lori gets hers out there at this point I will have to throw mine out there too. It won't really matter to me how many I sell because I can afford it so eventually I will get my money back but more windows out there is certainly going to hurt Lori and that is a shame. I don't feel there is anything I can do about that. I happen to need three sets for myself. So it kind of sux doesn't it. It is a bad taste in my mouth but at least I will get some damn windows on my car one way or another!

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: .....certainly going to hurt Lori and that is a shame. I don't feel there is anything I can do about that.......It is a bad taste in my mouth but at least I will get some damn windows on my car one way or another!

Number one rule.....business is business and pleasure is pleasure....the two don't mix. If she can't get the job done 23 pages and 2 years later, I wish you 100% success with your product and would like a set when you are done.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 03-15-2008).]

I'll be needing a set

quote Originally posted by 2002z28ssconv: Did I hear this correctly? Here's why I ask... I thought that Lori had issues with the dots stretching if they were screened on before the forming took place. Therefore making the process more difficult by requiring the screening to be done after the molding process.

I used to screen print Lexan and Plexiglas prior to forming. Some of the sheeting was formed over a heated wire, while other parts were sent out to be formed in an oven. The ones formed in an oven were placed into a fixture, heated, and gravity took over. It didn't deform the printing, unless the curve or bend was severe, so forming a GT window after the printing shouldn't deform the dots. We had approached a company that could form with heat and vacuum, but the cost was more than my company wanted to pay. One problem we had was finding an ink that would hold up. We eventually found a 2-part catalyst ink that was hard as nails when cured. You could only remove it by removing part of the substrate underneath. The printing would not delaminate like some of the aftermarket windows I've seen.

Most of the Lexan items we printed were for use in a harsh chemical environment, while the Plexiglas items were things that had to withstand a degree of wear. The Lexan is very durable, but soft and easily scratched. Plexiglas is more optically clear and withstands wear a little better, but can't stand chemicals of the petroleum kind.

Good Luck to ya. I'm sure if you're successful, there'll be some other aftermarket windows being replaced.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 03-15-2008).]

Well sign me up for a set! How far away from production do you figure you are? I've waited to long. I just ordered a flat set from the Fiero store and they showed up chipped and cracked. And they don't look all that good.

quote Originally posted by motoman: Well sign me up for a set! How far away from production do you figure you are? I've waited to long. I just ordered a flat set from the Fiero store and they showed up chipped and cracked. And they don't look all that good.

Fiero store is a stand up company. They will take care of you just give em a call.

As far as production goes I am making zero deadlines and no promises. I will post progress and things I have learned as a matter of course.
When I actually have panels that are deemed perfect and I get others opinions in the fiero world that they feel they are perfect then I will set a price that we all can live with and ship them out. I won't be selling any that come out less than perfect. Those will be thrown out as my goal is to produce exact OEM replicas not garage sale items.
If I can't turn out perfect clones I will simply destroy the project. There are already panels on the market now that are less than perfect.

It aint gonna take two freaking years though. I would guess if everything goes as scheduled and it has so far three months. It has been a month in pre-production and I guess another month to create tooling and turn out a test batch fixing and adjusting and then another month to figure the best method for printing before or after.
Then packaging needs to be addressed. I can start that now.

So no promises just reports. Any suggestions would be great but I want to keep it simple so no special tints or lettering.

I will be definately in the market for one of your sets when they get produced. I appreciate the quality control you are doing during the Pre-production phase. I am sure that you will make a perfect clone with the excellent sounding staff you have working with you. I can't wait to see the end result.

So no promises just reports. Any suggestions would be great but I want to keep it simple so no special tints or lettering.

Just the GT logos I hope .
If not , Fiero Store sells them

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: As far as production goes I am making zero deadlines and no promises. I will post progress and things I have learned as a matter of course. When I actually have panels that are deemed perfect and I get others opinions in the fiero world that they feel they are perfect then I will set a price that we all can live with and ship them out. I won't be selling any that come out less than perfect. Those will be thrown out as my goal is to produce exact OEM replicas not garage sale items. If I can't turn out perfect clones I will simply destroy the project. There are already panels on the market now that are less than perfect. It aint gonna take two freaking years though. I would guess if everything goes as scheduled and it has so far three months. It has been a month in pre-production and I guess another month to create tooling and turn out a test batch fixing and adjusting and then another month to figure the best method for printing before or after. Then packaging needs to be addressed. I can start that now. So no promises just reports. Any suggestions would be great but I want to keep it simple so no special tints or lettering.

I don't think anyone could ... or should ask for more than that. Updates are great..... good or bad. And if and when you do have that {perfect} saleable product, we'll all be beating a path to your door. And should the project get scrapped for whatever reason, you'll still have our respect and appreciation for even taking it on in a professional and businesslike manner.


Rich

Pokey, since you're using CNC, are you milling the outer dimensions? If so, will you be flame polishing the edges to take away the clouding caused by the tooling? This would make a much better looking product. While the originals had rounded edges, I'm sure that a flat milled edge with flame polishing would be acceptable. At least it would to me.

quote Originally posted by Robert 2: So no promises just reports. Any suggestions would be great but I want to keep it simple so no special tints or lettering. Just the GT logos I hope . If not , Fiero Store sells them

Yes the Gt logos and the dot matrix exact to original.

I just got off the phone with the CMC guy. He needs me to come out and approve the final numbers before cutting a tool. So monday will be exciting. Also I guess that means if I approve it I will be writing a hefty check. YIKES!!
No problem It is all so worth it. He is talking about a fellow that may build an injection mold for a decent price also. That would really rock if I could get a mold done.

Thanks

Yes the Gt logos and the dot matrix exact to original.