* Almost 1/2 there. If the trend continues, I don't see there being a challenge at selling 40 sets just on this forum alone. There's still the ebay market as well as regional car meets.
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11:37 PM
May 2nd, 2008
sjmaye Member
Posts: 2468 From: Hendersonville, TN USA Registered: Jun 2003
Oh boy! You know it is really Blkcofy's fault I even started this.
Yeah I read that and said to myself "DAMN RIGHT!" Well heck. I started poking around two and a half months ago and now there is no turning back. I mean hey man! I have blocks of sculpted aluminum that cost more than most Fiero's I own each. No worries mates. If I can make them right we will have them available. I would love to tell everyone they will be priced under 200 bucks but I doubt that and I don't have a clue yet. I will say 300 is too much for a project made within the community. Middle ground will be found. I will produce these windows and sell at least at a minimum enough to pay for their creation. I may after that sell off the system to a known Fiero parts seller so we will always have them. I have already spoken to him. I will keep the price down . Maybe the retailer will also I couldn't say.
Just as a reminder - when setting the price, I assume that doesn't include shipping costs or cost of shipping materials for Pokey. If he sells them for $250 you might be paying close to $300 for them shipped... But I can't tell you how much I appreciate your work on these Pokey and I hope you do well for yourself financially for taking this big of a risk. I know I don't have $10k to invest in the R&D, so because you have I believe it's well within your right to get your share on the return.
BTW, I for one did manage to get a finished set of windows from Lori. I guess I'm one of the really lucky ones because I got a set of them that were blemished and returned them to get a good pair. They are good quality and seem to fit ok, but there are definite imperfections with them. Only the front edge is rounded and the rest have been sanded due to the way she had to cut them for fitment. I'll be getting rid of these once Pokey gets his done.
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10:17 AM
FieroMonkey Member
Posts: 3294 From: poway,CA,USA Registered: Nov 2002
I think it is also important to point out that selling these on a larger venue such as eBay will net Pokey far more sales than just PFF alone.
Perhaps when these windows are ready, someone can help Pokey make up a nice template for ebay where there is a detailed and easy to read explanation with high quality pics to show every angle and feature the windows have. Put them up one set at a time for 5 day auctions and you could be selling 4-5 sets a month.
I am confident that eBay selling these windows will get Pokey his money back plus a profit in short time.
Heck, people are still paying 150-200 for flat icky pancake gt windows on ebay constantly.
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 05-02-2008).]
If he sells them at maybe ( who knows ) 350 on E-Bay , i don't think we will be able to get them at 250 right out of him ?
My thought is if he sells 4-5 sets on eBay a month in addition to those he sells here on PFF he will be selling a higher volume. If that is the case then the price may not need to be as high as that.
There are from my experience more GT's with window problems than there are without. Once word gets around that there are near OEM quality windows available sales will pick up i think because there is definately a demand for them. PFF is not the only collection of people who need these for their GT's so 'DWBs' in this thread reflect only a small portion of those who will actually buy these. I meet a lot of Fiero owners who need these windows that never come to PFF. Many buy parts only on ebay.
If these are priced right I believe they will move a lot faster, but that is just my opinion. If they are a bit higher in price they will still sell as long as the quality is near OEM, but at a slower rate I am sure.
for arguments sake, lets say he is $10,000 invested. At $300.00 a set he would need to sell 33 sets to break even At $250.00 a set he would need to sell 40 sets to break even At $200.00 a set he would need to sell 50 sets to break even and so on, you get the picture in either price direction, up or down.
Even at $200.00 a set he would break even in 12 months if he sold 4-5 a month. at $300 a set if he sold 2-3 a month he would break even in 12 months. Take into account that he will probably sell at least 5 sets immediately on PFF and the time it will take him will be much less.
It really all depends on how long Pokey wants to wait to make his money back. But how price will effect how quickly they sell is a guess at best. Over a long enough time line I am willing to stake a lot on him selling enough to make back his money and start earning a profit. But like I said, how long Pokey wants to wait for this to happen is up to him. That will likely determine what he sets the price to.
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 05-02-2008).]
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03:07 PM
Hank is Here Member
Posts: 4453 From: Hershey, Pa Registered: Sep 2000
for arguments sake, lets say he is $10,000 invested. At $300.00 a set he would need to sell 33 sets to break even At $250.00 a set he would need to sell 40 sets to break even At $200.00 a set he would need to sell 50 sets to break even and so on, you get the picture in either price direction, up or down.
Nice anaylsis but you are only looking at the fixed costs and completly ignore the variable costs such as material and labor. Realistically there will be more total cost in producing 50 sets than 20 sets. The fixed costs are just that fixed.
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03:31 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37846 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
If these are priced right I believe they will move a lot faster, but that is just my opinion. If they are a bit higher in price they will still sell as long as the quality is near OEM, but at a slower rate I am sure.
It's not just a matter of selling faster or slower. The point I made on the last page in my previous post is that at a lower cost there will be MORE people buying them.
Many people will simply put up with less than perfect factory panels on their GTs if the cost of replacement panels is deemed to be too expensive. Call me cheap, but that's where I'm at. Remember, we don't all have show quality Fieros. However, if the cost is low enough, then replacing the panels becomes a much more attractive and viable option to a lot more people.
In regards to how many units Pokey needs to sell to break even, as Hank has already correctly pointed out, your figures do not include the actual cost of producing the panels (materials and labour). The only expense you've considered is the research and development costs.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
I'll be interested to see how the pricing works out. Obviously Pokey needs to make the whole venture worth his while, but I'm curious what the best way to do this is.
Using VERY round figures, let's say Pokey has invested $10,000 in research and development. Then let's say that it actually costs $100 in materials and labour to make a pair of them. (Remember, these are round figures for argumentative sake.) Does Pokey then charge $300 a pair to try and recoup his initial expenses faster per unit sold, albiet to a smaller base of customers due to the relatively high price, or does Pokey charge $150 - $200 to sell a whole wack more of them due to the lower price, thus possibly ending up as a more profitable venture for Pokey.
I'm sure they teach the pros and cons of each argument in business school. It would be great in this case if selling at a lower price actually ended up putting more money eventually into Pokey's pocket. It would be a win-win situation for everybody.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-02-2008).]
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04:15 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16203 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
OK guys take it easy. I have already stated they will be sold as cheap as I can sell them for. Speculation is pointless as far as money goes. What is important is I am willing to see it through. Oil price has directly effected plastic prices so even estamates I have worked out when I started are not going to be on the money. Right now there are a bunch of variables:Type and price of ink,proccess to print, Sheet price vs custom size bulk order acyrilic,thermo doods end price after trim and polish,quantity to start with,how many failures before proccess perfect,how much capital I am willing to put out at a time for materials vs actual orders,Available time for shipping, finding good strong boxes or custom boxes for shipping. The list goes on and on and I think about all these things. That is why I don't promise anything or take any orders or money. I take all this on my own and that is fine. Like I said if I could sell a superior product for what others sell their product for I would happy as any of you. At this time I am working out what type of sheets to buy and how many of them. I will do the best I can and I won't skimp on anything. That's the only promise I can make. I have only been at this for 2 1/2 months so I am not an expert.
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04:54 PM
FieroMonkey Member
Posts: 3294 From: poway,CA,USA Registered: Nov 2002
I suppose i should have specified more clearly that the example i made was simply to illustrate 'the number of sets sold to break even would differ based on price'. i used the 10k as an 'example only' and it wasn't meant to be an actual realistic calculation as I am not in contact with Pokey, nor do I have any idea what everything costs.
i know there are material costs, but as I was making the chart to explain a small point i did not bother adding materials costs and other expenses because it wasn't needed for the point i was trying to make..
I understand that Fiero owners are generally budget car owners, however there will always be people who are willing to spend whatever it takes to get the nicest parts for their Fieros. some owners spend thousands on just wheels and tires for their Fieros. There will be people who are willing to pay $400.00 for a set of gt windows if they are really close to OEM, yes there will be fewer than those who will pay 250-300 but they are there. I was just trying to explain how over a long enough time line you could break even off of the customers who can pay 300-400 a set, but that it would take longer than selling them for 200-250.
Thats all I was trying to get at, sorry for the confusion
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 05-02-2008).]
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06:02 PM
fierogt28 Member
Posts: 2960 From: New-Brunswick, Canada. Registered: Feb 2005
There's a difference between wanting to buy, and buying. People here are starting to get excited just like when Lori's windows were on the verge of comming to market / sale. What if, and I say again...what if Pokey doesn't bring this to market. Some members are probably going to piss on Pokey or point fingers. He has giving his time to start a wonderful project, so don't get all excited until the project is finished. People are doing the same thing (getting excited) like Lori's windows attemped, and look what happend. Taking names down is useless, because I'm sure some (intended buyers) will back out because they can't come up with the funds at that time. I do not want to be put on the list until the product is finished. Another thing which is good, is Pokey isn't accepting any money.
Sorry Pokey, I didn't what to hi-jack this thread, but just wanted to leave a comment.
fierogt28
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06:12 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37846 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
fierogt28 you are right about maintaining a little restraint on expectations. However there is no reason not to be excited. What Lori did, as you pointed out, was take peoples money for something she did not and could not produce. Something you yourself pointed out, Pokey is not doing.
It is good for Pokey to see enthusiasm from people here as he moves forward with accomplishment on his endevor. And I doubt Pokey is counting on people in this thread to make or break him financially on the project. Especially since he himself pointed out in the beginning that he is doing this to make a set or two for himself and then sell off the tooling to recoup his costs. So in my mind he has the right attitude, which is "I am doing this whether anyone buys a set or not".
That fact alone is enough to really keep him from getting in trouble if he fails. There will be dissapointment if these windows dont happen, but you can't get angry with a guy who admitted he was setting out to make himself a set of windows for his own car, and if it worked he might try to sell a few sets.
Pokey is doing this the right way, Lori's cascade of mistakes probably helped him to pick his path carefully. I don't think he will get the negativity Lori recieved if he doesn't succeed.
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 05-02-2008).]
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06:32 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16203 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
The thermo moulders now have been delivered one hand adjusted and polished mold. It is technically ready to stamp out acyclic panels. I have not spoken to them but I will talk to them Monday. My hope is to quickly get a few on there to get a feel for it and also to do any adjusting to the mold. The second mold is on hold from finishing until the first is perfected. I am so excited to see the first one come out even it looks like a non microwave bowl accident. Right now everything is first time and unknown. I actually will feel more at ease when there is a problem or two to work out. I don't know how I am going to get through the weekend until I talk to the former. I want to drag the guy away from home to open shop right now.
To me it seems that once the first mold is decidedly perfect and then the printer says "I got it,I can make a million of these now" that everything else will fall into place easy. I can't wait to see the first perfect set sitting in front of me.
Goodness my GT's are gonna look good with new sail panels! Did I mention how excited I am?
Oh and stop worrying about the money. Money isn't everything and it certainly doesn't compare to such lofty goals as maintaining our beloved Fiero's! Doesn't Fiero mean PRIDE in Italian? Well we may not be Porsche or Corvette snobs but we will damn well have more fun with our cars.
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08:42 PM
PFF
System Bot
SEGT-86 Member
Posts: 120 From: Lake Mills, Wisconsin Registered: May 2004
Thanks guys Very reasonable point of view . Wish it will come to the day that the bell is gonna ring with a guy and box about the size of the quarters showing .
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09:44 PM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5500 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
What Lori did, as you pointed out, was take peoples money for something she did not and could not produce. Something you yourself pointed out, Pokey is not doing.
Quoted for emphasis. Many of us Paypalled Lori because she was promising us "shipping later in the week". So we spent the better part of a month watching everyday for a UPS man who never came, and then it went downhill from there. Now two years have passed and she might as well be on the moon; I try calling her at the fiero factory and they don't put me through to her.
Pokey hasn't taken anyone's money.
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10:20 PM
May 3rd, 2008
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5236 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
I have read most of this thread as it has developed. I just want to say: I hope you make money. I hope you make a lot of it. You are the one who stuck his neck on the line with the financial outlay. If you lost $10K I would feel bad for you, but I would not send you any money. If you make $10k I will feel happy for you, and I would not feel you did not deserve every peny you earned. No one else here stuck their neck on the line (even Lori did not, she took from others with false representations so that others would be the real loosers, not her). It is people like you who make the world better for others. My hat is off to you.
Aaron
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12:22 AM
sjmaye Member
Posts: 2468 From: Hendersonville, TN USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Electrathon: ...No one else here stuck their neck on the line (even Lori did not, she took from others with false representations so that others would be the real loosers, not her). ...
Just to clarify... Lori *did* (and still does) have a bunch of her own funds invested in this.
I'll back up what PaulV posted. I also talked with Lori. She hasn't given up on her attempt. How successful she will be remains to be seen.
Not to take away from Pokey. Looks like he's definitely gonna make it happen. Hat's off to him, as well.
Note: [I just deleted my previous 'attempt' to stay on the sideline. Inevitably, someone was going to feel compelled to respond and take this GT WINDOW thread somewhere else. I know better than that, and I apologize. Back to the focus of capturing the interest in Pokey's work...]
[This message has been edited by blkcofy (edited 05-06-2008).]
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10:11 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37846 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I'm trying my best to stay on the sideline, and not offer my opinions on comments from those that are less than supportive of Pokey's fricken AMAZING efforts to deliver where others have failed miserably...I mean, WTF?!
...............
Are we reading the same thread?
Show me where someone has been "less than supportive of Pokey's fricken AMAZING efforts".
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10:16 PM
daniel87fierogt Member
Posts: 1793 From: Northern California Registered: Oct 2003
Bite your tongue! Or fingers. I need this to happen. My car is siting in the garage with all kinds of insane upgrades but is to embarrased to go out without paint and sailpanels.
Man today was just bad. Bad from the minute I got on the phone. Even worse I have to tell you guys this.
3 weeks before I can get my test forming in. The shop I am using is the one everyone wants to do all the specialty stuff and he is slammed. We had arranged things so this wouldn't happen to me and he even bought another huge machine to work the demand but it is huge. Even testing requires a whole day on a machine plus the lead guy.
This means that the best case timetable just got slammed a month back. Three weeks and nothing to get done or accomplish. I am devastated. I can't wait that long, I could die. If changes need be made after testing then another delay!!!
This sucks so much I am sick to my stomach. I don't want a different shop so there is no point in going to another. Problem is no one else wants another shop either. Even if I hired another shop just for testing I don't think that would be good. I want a perfect product and moving crap around to different people isn't conducive to perfection.
So I'm stuck in the mud with a project that is almost finished and nothing I can do to help it along. Helpless.Best case now is a completion date in late July instead of June. At least I know the printers should be all ready even before the thermo guys.
I just am really upset. I have been so excited I feel like I just fell off a cliff.
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03:04 PM
Electrathon Member
Posts: 5236 From: Gresham, OR USA Registered: Dec 2002
You are looking at it wrong. This is good news. You have chosen a shop that is good at what they do and you are on thier schedule. Nothing ever happens on time on this sort of thing. You are still moving forwards. Bad would have been if they formed them and they looked like ass (the primary thing to avoid from a previous post if I remember correct).
Aaron
[This message has been edited by Electrathon (edited 05-06-2008).]
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03:18 PM
Robert 2 Member
Posts: 2401 From: St Hubert Quebec Canada Registered: Jan 2006
Pokey, I agree with Electrathon. Gosh man, it has been over 2 years since the original project started. A tad more time ain't the end of the World. Ride it out with the people you are confident can pull it off.
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06:11 PM
FieroMonkey Member
Posts: 3294 From: poway,CA,USA Registered: Nov 2002
Seriously, what others above have said. These delays are pretty common with all projects when they have production steps like this. A month isn't bad as long as you are definately on their schedule. Like you said, you have a good shop and should wait for them to have an opening when they can do it perfectly instead of rolling the dice on another shop which could do it badly or risk endless delays like we heard some other shops can do.
Just be patient and we will as well. A month will be over before you know it!
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 05-06-2008).]
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07:05 PM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
) 99.9%
Remember, we don't all have show quality Fieros. However, if the cost is low enough, then replacing the panels becomes a much more attractive and viable option to a lot more people.
