I'm here. Actually I have both Molds sitting in front of the hot sucky machine and I'm told they are going to do 5 pulls for free for me so they can work out heat/timing issues. They will ten go on to a computer comtrolled trimming machine that is in the progress of being programmed now. Rich is doing this for free as a favor for me and to help the formers move the project along. I may buy materials with credit or on a promise to pay but that won't be for about a month anyway. Rich my mold maker has been the key to these and I still owe him some money that was due on the first of this month. He needs the money pretty bad so I am trying to get it to him first. He knows I'm good for it no matter what so he has been very nice about it. This is a guy that deserves to be paid first above all things and it kills me I can't get it to him when he needs it the most.
I literally have over 250 Gs out right now and zero accounts payable due to everyone being ****ed up business wise. No one has the ability to pay me right now and my own work has come to almost a stand still. Lucky for me I have a few long time clients that use me exclusively because they know they can trust me with their business while they are away. Unfortunately that doesn't even pay my static bills every month. If I have to I will take the last 20 G in retirement to finish these and of course pay the mortgage but I am loath to do so hoping some money previously allotted for this project will come in with return. On paper I'm worth plenty but that doesn't really help in the real world of day to day expenses. Never again will I put some much capitol out of my personal control. Very unconservative and irresponsible of me. I could come up with a hundred excuses why this isn't my fault but that's bullshit. These panels should have been done two months ago by my account and I apologize. I have been to lenient with people and I have taken steps to remedy this cash problem. If you are all pissed at me for taking so long I am even more pissed. I am not a production company just a sole business minded person living on the razor thin fringe of risk vs. reward as I have always lived. I took on this endeavor without risk to anyone but myself so try and keep that in mind while waiting.
Right now things are moving along again due to some great people working without contract. Hopefully by the time they are ready I will have the cash for materials and production. I do not and can not expect people to work for free and buy me materials. At this point there is zero possibilty of these not being produced all is just timing now. Short of selling my Dogs this will happen.
If you are all pissed at me for taking so long I am even more pissed.
Pokey,
I'm just glad you are giving it your best shot and to me it looks like you are doing great. Don't be to hard on yourself and don't let the project drag you down.
IP: Logged
11:47 PM
Oct 27th, 2008
triker Member
Posts: 454 From: Yreka, Ca. USA Registered: Apr 2000
Pokey, no need to defend yourself. You haven't screwed over a single person, and many of us are grateful beyond words for that (us who have been screwed over by various random Fiero people no doubt). Apparently there aren't many people who understand the risks of honest business as you do. I hope your financial situation gets resolved soon.
Still DWB.
IP: Logged
04:50 PM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
Giving up on you is like being on death row and giving up on the governor for your stay of execution. We're in this together, so we're all just very happy and relieved to hear that you haven't given up! As for your personal financial situation, you'd better take care of it first. Although there are some great people on the Forum, they won't sign up to pay your bills. So, do take care of your family first. We've been waiting for decades for quality reproductions to be made. A few months (years if we have to) won't matter. I agree with a previous post, you have nothing to apologize for; like it or not, you're the only game in town! Good luck to you!
IP: Logged
06:25 PM
Oct 28th, 2008
cropduster Member
Posts: 145 From: Stockbridge, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 2006
I'm thinking right now about taking ten grand and pushing this project through as hard as I can . I am considering prospective sales and return vs the risk of the loss of needed capitol. My fears are that after we get a few non test panels out I will not be satisfied or that customers won't be satisfied or simply if all goes well and in this economy there won't be enough buyers to justify a expensive push to production.
I am sorry to say that while I am indeed dedicated to making these I have to consider the possibility that there are not enough sales to justify such a risk. Trust me in my heart I want to do it. I really really want to do it.
This decision is also contingent on a deal going through tomorrow morning. All will be moot if it fails but it seems solid at the moment.
If all goes well my decision will basically be a differing factor of time to completion. Done in one to two months or done in four to five months. The latter being that I get it done as expendable funds present themselves. The former being that I push it along praying for success and a fast return.
I'm goin to keep you all updated on what I can do as quik as possible. Sorry for the delay and for my uncharacteristic indecisiveness.
IP: Logged
01:50 AM
Robert 2 Member
Posts: 2401 From: St Hubert Quebec Canada Registered: Jan 2006
I still want to buy a set and a friend of mine too . Not much on ten grand but i'm sure with all the fiero's needing them you'll be alright .At least getting your money back . Keep on going . We need them bad .
Sadly our CND $$$ is starting to loose badly against the US $$ so it will cost me much more than the last time.
You know I lost 330$ US with MsLori, but I need them. So I will not miss the opportunity to help. But this time I will have to wait for the real final product to show and ship.
So I cant commit to send money now to help, but I WILL purchase a set if they are like the original. No question. And I offer moral support.
You know, I've been thinking. I understand Pokey's hesitance to put so much money into something of which he's not sure he will even make enough to break even. Sure, many people have committed to "definitely" buy a set once they are made, but I speak out of experience that really doesn't mean anything. In the past, I had put some considerable time and somewhat less considerable amount of money in creating a Forum CD because a lot of people said they would definitely buy it if there was one. When it was done, only 13 people of the perhaps 100 people who said they would buy one, actually bought one...
I'm not saying this is going to happen here, but the stakes are considerable higher than with my puny Forum CD.
On the other hand, I can also understand people's hesitance to fork over the money up front. Heck, this whole thread is about people having paid for something they never received (and probably never will). And it isn't the first time - it has happened with other things too (Fiero Badges, anyone?).
So here's what I was thinking about. I hope most of you trust me. I'm willing to serve as some kind of Escrow - meaning people will actually pay me up front and I will sit on the money until the product is done. This way, Pokey knows *exactly* beforehand how many people will actually buy a set (because it has essentially been paid for already). So when he's ready to ship them out, I will forward the money for each delivered item to Pokey. On the other hand, if Pokey for whatever reason is unable to deliver, I will simply give the money back to the buyer. This way, there's no risk for either side.
The only thing that has me slightly worried about this whole deal, is that there is actually one person who is at risk here and that's me. First of all, if you pay with PayPal for instance, there's going to PayPal fees and I don't want to be the one ending up paying that. Second, if people really want to screw me over, they can dispute the charge once they received the items.
But anyway, that's my idea. If this will speed things up/smooth things out, I'm more than willing to do something like this.
IP: Logged
08:05 AM
PFF
System Bot
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
I actually like the idea of paying into an "escrow account" now, because the longer I wait, the more opprotunity for something else to take that money. By paying now, it is money spent.
So put me down for sending the cash in right away as long as Pokey agrees, and Cliff is willig to take it on.
Cheers!
IP: Logged
10:59 AM
ALLTRBO Member
Posts: 2023 From: College Park, MD Registered: Mar 2006
I wouldn't do the Escrow thing, but if the product is even 90% of what it sounds like it'll be, DWB for me means DWB, even if they cost a -little- more. I've spent enough on my project now that I'm not considering bailing on it as I had been a while ago.
I agree, though, a whole lot of "definitely" doesn't mean much until the money is sent. OTOH, once a product is ready to ship, many of those will buy them who aren't part of this thread at all.
IP: Logged
03:18 PM
Richjk21 Member
Posts: 2228 From: Central Square NY, USA Registered: Feb 2006
You know, I've been thinking. I understand Pokey's hesitance to put so much money into something of which he's not sure he will even make enough to break even. Sure, many people have committed to "definitely" buy a set once they are made, but I speak out of experience that really doesn't mean anything. In the past, I had put some considerable time and somewhat less considerable amount of money in creating a Forum CD because a lot of people said they would definitely buy it if there was one. When it was done, only 13 people of the perhaps 100 people who said they would buy one, actually bought one...
I'm not saying this is going to happen here, but the stakes are considerable higher than with my puny Forum CD.
On the other hand, I can also understand people's hesitance to fork over the money up front. Heck, this whole thread is about people having paid for something they never received (and probably never will). And it isn't the first time - it has happened with other things too (Fiero Badges, anyone?).
So here's what I was thinking about. I hope most of you trust me. I'm willing to serve as some kind of Escrow - meaning people will actually pay me up front and I will sit on the money until the product is done. This way, Pokey knows *exactly* beforehand how many people will actually buy a set (because it has essentially been paid for already). So when he's ready to ship them out, I will forward the money for each delivered item to Pokey. On the other hand, if Pokey for whatever reason is unable to deliver, I will simply give the money back to the buyer. This way, there's no risk for either side.
The only thing that has me slightly worried about this whole deal, is that there is actually one person who is at risk here and that's me. First of all, if you pay with PayPal for instance, there's going to PayPal fees and I don't want to be the one ending up paying that. Second, if people really want to screw me over, they can dispute the charge once they received the items.
But anyway, that's my idea. If this will speed things up/smooth things out, I'm more than willing to do something like this.
I D'know Cliff .... not sure how I feel about forking my cash over to a computer program
I've been following this thread, both for the progress of MsLori and Pokey. I was lucky enough to get probably the last good right side windows from a dealer. Kudos to Pokey for continuing to push ahead, in spite of the obvious final costs, without guaranteed returns.
On a side note, going back to the originination of this thread, I got word last week that MsLori has delivered some acceptable windows. So, she's still trying.
I've been following this thread, both for the progress of MsLori and Pokey. I was lucky enough to get probably the last good right side windows from a dealer. Kudos to Pokey for continuing to push ahead, in spite of the obvious final costs, without guaranteed returns.
On a side note, going back to the originination of this thread, I got word last week that MsLori has delivered some acceptable windows. So, she's still trying.
If she's still trying , why don't she send mine that have already been paid since almost 3 years .
IP: Logged
08:07 AM
FieroMonkey Member
Posts: 3294 From: poway,CA,USA Registered: Nov 2002
i agree with Cliff that a portion of the people on the DWB list may not actually pay once they are finished. However I think that unlike the CD's Cliff made these windows are an essential for GT owners who want OEM quality replacements because as most are painfully aware, there are none (OEM close quality). So even if the list here isn't full of true DWB's when the product is ready to go I still bet that placing a set on ebay every week will net Pokey a sale with many owners who do not even know about PFF.
Also, I am willing to bet if the product is half as good as they should be that Fierostore would be interested in buying large quantities of them. I know they already have with a homemade set that are the flat fritter ones with bad grafix and only a front rolled edge. "good enough for government work" as they say, but not even close to OEM.
Keep plugging away Pokey
[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 11-01-2008).]
IP: Logged
01:25 PM
fierofool Member
Posts: 12915 From: Auburn, Georgia USA Registered: Jan 2002
If she's still trying , why don't she send mine that have already been paid since almost 3 years .
I know nothing of how many she's shipped, to whom, or how she's selecting recipients. I just was informed by one of our club members that he had received his set and felt that they looked very good.
Personally, at this point I don't favor either over the other for producing a product. I hope they both succeed. Probably one of their reproduction lines will become the economy model for those who want a close look alike, and the other the deluxe model for those who wish an identical reproduction.
IP: Logged
05:25 PM
007DOUG Member
Posts: 1280 From: Wheeling, WV 26003 Registered: Feb 2000
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:.......When it was done, only 13 people of the perhaps 100 people who said they would buy one, actually bought one....
As most of you know, I deal with fiero owners daily. So I'll chime in with my experience here as well. Here at Fiero Warehouse we have something called the "10% Rule", If 100 folks say they'll definitely buy, no matter hell or high water, only 10 WILL buy. Cliff, your experience has echoed that rule.
Escrow is never a good idea for a product that isn't ready to sell.
------------------ 4 Indys, 1 is A/C delete 85 GT speedster project 86 GT Corvette Yellow 2 88 Formula T-Tops 91 Grand Prix GTP, 3.4 TDC, 5 Speed 01 GMC "1 ton of fun" Crew Dually Diesel 08 Ford Escape
However...... "Time is the most precious and perishable of my possessions."
As most of you know, I deal with fiero owners daily. So I'll chime in with my experience here as well. Here at Fiero Warehouse we have something called the "10% Rule", If 100 folks say they'll definitely buy, no matter hell or high water, only 10 WILL buy. Cliff, your experience has echoed that rule.
Escrow is never a good idea for a product that isn't ready to sell.
You got that right, Doug...I'm 100% behind you on that one.
------------------ fierogt28
88 GT, loaded, 5-speed
IP: Logged
12:34 AM
PFF
System Bot
fieromadman Member
Posts: 2217 From: Oconomowoc WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
Escrow is never a good idea for a product that isn't ready to sell.
Why not? Those putting the cash into escrow will place it with a neutral party that will return the cash if the parts are not completed or delivered. So in my mind it is sort of like locking in on a product on the bottom floor, and can be beneficial to both buyer and seller. It would give the person developing the parts a little assurance that he will get a little return back on his/her investment, and the buyer can possibly get in before prices go up.
I see it as a win-win, as long as the person holding the escrow is totally neutral and forwards the cash to the person entitled to it.
I know I really want... no, I need new quarter windows as the ones on my car are becoming a major distraction from new paint, and a make over. I am about ready to shell out money for the flat panel ones, that will serve a purpose, but not what I want. If I buy the flat panel ones I will not be able to justify buying the curved ones that will look tons better.
So I am in a holding pattern, hoping that these are available soon... But I wold not blame Pokey one bit if he decided to NOT invest more money right now considering how tight the economy has become over the past couple of months. When things start getting tight, I'd need a good warm fuzzy that enough folks will buy them to at least break even on the investment.
Should we start a list over, and capture only those who would buy no matter what? Even if it meant sending the money to Cliff to hold and serve as a guarantee for Pokey?
What's missing for me is hearing from Pokey. Alot of folks offering opinion and help, but the only one that counts is Pokey! I too feel that I MUST purchase one. If not Pokey, then something else. Pokey's rough designs are kickin' every other current options butt, so it's a no brainer for me to wait to see what Pokey needs or wants to do.
IP: Logged
02:16 PM
Nov 3rd, 2008
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16203 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I'm going to produce them regardless. Escrow is a good idea for those that wish to use it though nothing should be sent to anyone until the priduct is finished and evavuated by a few people. I am not asking anyone to send money to me or Cliff before we have a salable product. Honestly I am not looking for that kind of pressure. I will use my own money end of that.
Think about this. I have only an idea that these should be pretty damned good. What if they are not and more R&D need to be done. I have done these a totally different way and it is not a proven method. The computer says they will be great and the tests looked pretty damn good but come on anything can happen. I get the first three perfect sets so you know I want them to be great and only great.
As far as money goes I have a few people that owe me a lot of money and I am just kinda waiting for someone to cough a little up.
When these are available I have no problem with peeps sending their dough to Cliff ,Ebay or internet escrow. If anyone needs a set like right now I have seen several cheap sets available. Not the greatest stuff in the world but it fills a hole. I will get these done like I said before if just for myself and then sell the project so no one needs to worry about me. I want OEM windows or better and that is what I'm gonna get.
Maybe next week I will be able to get some video or the hot sucky machine in action. I'm hoping! I will post that in the making Sail Panels thread in GEN/CHAT
IP: Logged
01:14 AM
CC Rider Member
Posts: 2037 From: Cameron Park, Ca Registered: May 2001
You should change mine from 1 DWB, 1PWB to 1 DWB. I was successful at removing and reinstalling one of my sets without breaking them, so I will only need one set.
IP: Logged
05:20 AM
Nov 14th, 2008
TXGOOD Member
Posts: 5410 From: Austin, Texas Registered: Feb 2006
