I always liked the Fiero. But despite it looking great I always heard they were not sporty at all in their driving. But I also heard the 1988 cars are miles ahead of the previous models. So how are the 1988 cars as sports cars? Are they as competent as say a MR2 or other Japanese sports cars of the time? Or even other older sports cars such as older Porsches? Or if I'm looking for a true sporty drive I better look else where? Thanks.
According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary: A sports car (sportscar) is a small, usually a two seat, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling.
The real question is what do you like in a sports car, not what someone else deems is a sports car. What sports cars have you driven? A Miata is a sports car. Do you see yourself driving that? A lot of people think a Honda civic is a sports car.
The Fiero was introduced as an economy car but that description quickly changed when it was driven by the press.
I will tell you what I like in a sports car, two seats in a mid engine vehicle that can turn a corner with a good power to weight ratio. I like a small vehicle, I also like it to be rare with a low roof line and I prefer it to be built in America so I don't have to spend a lot of money on parts and service. It would help if it was a brand steeped in performance that has gone the wayside so I can remind people of what we once had. Something with styling I enjoy that I can get in and have fun driving. But I have that now,
The Fiero as a sports car? Stock? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Actually, when parked, it's a fine sports car. It can be improved, with engine, transmission, suspension, steering, and brake upgrades.
This is what I have always heard. They look great standing still but when you drive it the ride doesn't match the looks.
I was hoping the 88 with the new suspension and bits would be different?
To answer the question about what I'm looking in a sports car, I'm looking for performance. Fast-ish, with good grip and stability to corner and follow a twisty road. Not looking for the sports car look only. A good sports car is track capable.
To answer which sports cars I have driven, the answer is MR2 MKI and MKII, Lotus Esprit, Lotus Elise, MG TF, Porsche 914, Porsche Cayman and Vauxhall VX220 aka Opel Speedster. Those were the rear engine sports cars I have driven. Thanks.
How is the Fiero as a sports car? In a word-- bad. Their closest competition is the Miata, MR2 and similar, and the Fiero lags well behind these cars. It is overweight, underpowered, and the suspension leave something (lots of things) to be desired. The 88 did improve the suspension significantly, but the trade off is parts can be difficult to get, especially front bearings, and even the 88 suspension isn't perfect. Anyone who says the Fiero in stock form is a good "sports" car has either A) never driven a real sports car, or B) has never driven the Fiero competitively.
The thing the Fiero is good for is projects. There are infinite possibilities for what you can do to upgrade a Fiero. The upside of the car being lousy to being with is that EVERYTHING is an upgrade. Due to the poor power engine swaps are common, and several different ones such as the 3800 NA/SC, LS4, 3.4 DOHC, etc) are well documented and well supported by vendors.
How is the Fiero as a sports car? In a word-- bad. Their closest competition is the Miata, MR2 and similar, and the Fiero lags well behind these cars. It is overweight, underpowered, and the suspension leave something (lots of things) to be desired. The 88 did improve the suspension significantly, but the trade off is parts can be difficult to get, especially front bearings, and even the 88 suspension isn't perfect. Anyone who says the Fiero in stock form is a good "sports" car has either A) never driven a real sports car, or B) has never driven the Fiero competitively.
The thing the Fiero is good for is projects. There are infinite possibilities for what you can do to upgrade a Fiero. The upside of the car being lousy to being with is that EVERYTHING is an upgrade. Due to the poor power engine swaps are common, and several different ones such as the 3800 NA/SC, LS4, 3.4 DOHC, etc) are well documented and well supported by vendors.
I see.
I think engine performance should be easy enough to upgrade without a swap. Or the stock V6 is that lousy? And what about suspension upgrades if you have a 88? Also a must? What is normally done for upgrades? What else performance wise people normally upgrade in a 88? I know many people upgrade the look and body. But I'm not interested in that. Only performance. Thanks.
Not a great sports car, but with some mods as mentioned, can be cheap thrills for everyday spirited driving. High speed corner stability isn't up to par with modern cars, although the 88 is better than the earlier models. On mid speed mountain roads they are an absolute hoot, as well as autocross. The best selling point is cheap thrills, compared to other cars in the genre.
Swap is the best way for more hp. The engine is pretty much maxed out. I have a feeling a fiero isn't for you though., to be honest. The v6 is 140hp with lots of torque, for the time. It is not a high rpm engine. It is not something you wind up and row through the gears. If you try that, the engine won't last. It is an 80s Gm engine.
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Originally posted by Rn2016:
I see.
I think engine performance should be easy enough to upgrade without a swap. Or the stock V6 is that lousy? And what about suspension upgrades if you have a 88? Also a must? What is normally done for upgrades? What else performance wise people normally upgrade in a 88? I know many people upgrade the look and body. But I'm not interested in that. Only performance. Thanks.
Not a great sports car, but with some mods as mentioned, can be cheap thrills for everyday spirited driving. High speed corner stability isn't up to par with modern cars, although the 88 is better than the earlier models. On mid speed mountain roads they are an absolute hoot, as well as autocross. The best selling point is cheap thrills, compared to other cars in the genre.
So in stock form no Fiero is a thrill to drive? Upgrades are a must?
What would you consider mid speed on a mountain road?
Sure the selling point is cheap but if you need to upgrade to get the thrills, then it's no longer that cheap I would say? Thanks.
Swap is the best way for more hp. The engine is pretty much maxed out. I have a feeling a fiero isn't for you though., to be honest. The v6 is 140hp with lots of torque, for the time. It is not a high rpm engine. It is not something you wind up and row through the gears. If you try that, the engine won't last. It is an 80s Gm engine.
How much does a swap normally runs? What is the most usual swap? I don't want a big V8 or anything. I think it would unbalance the car. Maybe another V6? Thanks.
How much does a swap normally runs? What is the most usual swap? I don't want a big V8 or anything. I think it would unbalance the car. Maybe another V6? Thanks.
There are multiple options, depending upon your driving style and budget. I suggest using the search feature and look up 3800SC. It would be best to drive a swapped fiero or ride in one.
The Fiero as a sports car? Stock? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Actually, when parked, it's a fine sports car. It can be improved, with engine, transmission, suspension, steering, and brake upgrades.
Meh. There were Corvettes that had less power and handled worse than the Fiero. Yes, a stock Fiero in decent running condition can be considered a sports car. Is it the same as a new Lotus? No. It's still 30 years old. It fares very well against sports cars of the same era.
Just don't buy a stock Fiero expecting it to be the same as a second gen MR-2 or a Lotus Elise/Exige/Evora. A Fiero is plenty sporty, especially if you know how to drive it near its limits without breaking them.
Stock Fieros are great, but they are 30ish years old and have miles on them, they mostly need bushings, shocks/struts, might as well do ball joints, sway bars upgrade, springs since it's apart. 400 horse aluminum V-8 with a six speed, suspension work, good tires and wheels is quite a fun toy for under $20k. Mid speed mountain roads? Tail of the Dragon is a blast, as an example. It also feels good at 120 on MIS through the tri-oval.
A Fiero is a great sports car! Get one, or three while you're at it
Here'e the thing with Fieros... They are great little cars to scoot along in... I would call it a good sports car for the money. IMO, one of the best for the price. The 88's being the "best" option.
If you're in the market for one that is best, with the least amount of "work" to be fun right off the bat, find an 88 that's in good shape already. A clean example will go for about 6 grand. Keep in mind even the newest Fiero is 30 years old and will require at least some work to keep on the road at this point. The fact is, you won't find a mixture uniqueness, good looks and performance for the price. When it comes down to it, an 88 in stock form is a sports car by 1980 standards, even to mid 90s to a point. It can technically hold it's own on the skid pad compared to a similar vintage Corvette...
Biggest "flaw" is the lack of horsepower. However, I bet you I can still give you "skid marks" in some of the turns I can take at speed on the mountain roads by my house... :P
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Originally posted by Napoleon_Tanerite: How is the Fiero as a sports car? In a word-- bad. Their closest competition is the Miata, MR2 and similar, and the Fiero lags well behind these cars. It is overweight, underpowered, and the suspension leave something (lots of things) to be desired. The 88 did improve the suspension significantly, but the trade off is parts can be difficult to get, especially front bearings, and even the 88 suspension isn't perfect. Anyone who says the Fiero in stock form is a good "sports" car has either A) never driven a real sports car, or B) has never driven the Fiero competitively.
This is mostly nonsense.
The Fiero was a better car than the first gen MR2, but it was cancelled, while the MR2 lived on and got more upgrades and restyling. The Miata didn't come out until after production of the Fiero had already stopped, and it only made 100 lb-ft of torque, and at 5500 RPM at that. Sure it only weight 2000 lbs, but it was hardly "powerful." The Fiero is hardly a monstrous overweight beast either. Sure it's not a tiny tin can like the Miata, but at an average of 2800 lbs, it has a several hundred pound advantage over the Corvette and Camaro, which at the time of the Fiero's production, were just starting to get back over the 200 HP mark. The Fiero GT and Camaro Z/28 had very similar 1/4 mile times.
Stop comparing the Fiero to things which didn't exist at the time, and attempting to claim those who don't share your personal opinion on the matter don't know what they're talking about. A stock Fiero GT or Formula, or a V6 SE with WS6, are in fact decent sports cars of the age.
The Fiero is ok as a sportscar stock....But if you get one that has miles on it, worn bushings, etc can throw you for a loop(Pun intended!).....Still, they are very simple cars to work on, and there are lots of mods- both going "extra" Fiero or just making it a better Fiero. The 88 is better, but the front bearings are, at the moment a bit of a problem. I have a 85 SE V6 that I bought new....I have slowly modded it, bit by bit, and it is literally a blast to drive. The two kinds of people I tend to run into are, A) The Car expert that knows that they all caught fire, or B) The guy who thinks they are a closet lambo...Neither of these are true. The mid-engine design definitely makes itself felt when running a twisty road- Steady-state turning is only ok...Get a properly set-up Fiero on the tail of the dragon and you can have a lot of fun- May need to smoke a cig after!
An early(85-87) Fiero V6 with the 88 rear cradle/Suspension is probably the best combo at the moment...The 88 rear is where they really improved it.....I also swapped in a 3.4 F-body long-block so I get a bit more power, but at lower "R"s, so it's like going to lower rear gears...Off the line, or in a parking lot Gymkana, it is a monster, yet actually gets better MPG than the original 2.8......Oh, yeah....The front suspension is Chevette, which is Opel...and guess where Lotus procured the front spindles for their early Espirt?
'" Tits and Tires" are always expensive. Want a sport car?..how much $$$$$ do you have. For the bucks, Fiero's are good, modified they are great. Been around sport cars with SCCA for 50 years. The variety of sport cars are like women, they all do the same thing but some are better than others. Have fun with a Fiero, especially a manual shift and don't fantasize .
The Skeletal frame is almost identical to Ferrari 328 with most measurements within an inch inc roof height track width weight etc so strip the car to frame to start build. It is as good as you build it not many other cars have as much room for improvement. If you want stock best bang for buck no mods buy something else.
[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 09-01-2016).]
Meh. There were Corvettes that had less power and handled worse than the Fiero. Yes, a stock Fiero in decent running condition can be considered a sports car. Is it the same as a new Lotus? No. It's still 30 years old. It fares very well against sports cars of the same era.
Certainly you mean against American sports cars of the same era? Which is not saying much, as at that time the only real sports car made in the U.S. was the Corvette. The Vector was not in production yet and I doubt you are saying a Fiero can go against a Vector anyway. But it doesn't seem to me the Fiero would do well against Europeans of his time.
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Originally posted by dobey:Just don't buy a stock Fiero expecting it to be the same as a second gen MR-2 or a Lotus Elise/Exige/Evora. A Fiero is plenty sporty, especially if you know how to drive it near its limits without breaking them.
This is what I mean. If you think the Fiero can't go against a MKII MR2 it definitely can't go against a 1988 Porsche or Lotus or other similar Europeans.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-01-2016).]
Stock Fieros are great, but they are 30ish years old and have miles on them, they mostly need bushings, shocks/struts, might as well do ball joints, sway bars upgrade, springs since it's apart. 400 horse aluminum V-8 with a six speed, suspension work, good tires and wheels is quite a fun toy for under $20k. Mid speed mountain roads? Tail of the Dragon is a blast, as an example. It also feels good at 120 on MIS through the tri-oval.
Wouldn't a V8 totally unbalance the car? It would take a complete reconstruction and it may never be as good as if the chassis was made for such a heavier and more powerful engine.
The Fiero is ok as a sportscar stock....But if you get one that has miles on it, worn bushings, etc can throw you for a loop(Pun intended!).....Still, they are very simple cars to work on, and there are lots of mods- both going "extra" Fiero or just making it a better Fiero. The 88 is better, but the front bearings are, at the moment a bit of a problem. I have a 85 SE V6 that I bought new....I have slowly modded it, bit by bit, and it is literally a blast to drive. The two kinds of people I tend to run into are, A) The Car expert that knows that they all caught fire, or B) The guy who thinks they are a closet lambo...Neither of these are true. The mid-engine design definitely makes itself felt when running a twisty road- Steady-state turning is only ok...Get a properly set-up Fiero on the tail of the dragon and you can have a lot of fun- May need to smoke a cig after!
I don't understand this comment. Mid-engine is specially good for twisty roads, which should give the Fiero an advantage over front engine. But you make it sound like mid-engine is bad for twisty roads.
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Originally posted by cvxjet:An early(85-87) Fiero V6 with the 88 rear cradle/Suspension is probably the best combo at the moment...The 88 rear is where they really improved it.....
So you mean the Chevette front suspension is better than the 88 front suspension? How can that be?
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Originally posted by cvxjet:I also swapped in a 3.4 F-body long-block so I get a bit more power, but at lower "R"s, so it's like going to lower rear gears...Off the line, or in a parking lot Gymkana, it is a monster, yet actually gets better MPG than the original 2.8......Oh, yeah....The front suspension is Chevette, which is Opel...and guess where Lotus procured the front spindles for their early Espirt?
Well, this doesn't mean the Esprit suspension is Chevette or that it has anything to do with the Fiero's. The Esprit has a very good suspension. It's a neck breaker for sure. But as sports suspensions go it is pretty good. If I knew the Fiero's suspension was that good I would not be here asking questions.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Wouldn't a V8 totally unbalance the car? It would take a complete reconstruction and it may never be as good as if the chassis was made for such a heavier and more powerful engine.
Not necessarily. Don't think of number of cylinders as what makes an engine heavy. A turbo 4 cylinder can weigh just as much as the stock 2.8, some V6s can weigh more than the 2.8, and a properly built V8 can weigh less than all of those.
The Skeletal frame is almost identical to Ferrari 328 with most measurements within an inch inc roof height track width weight etc so strip the car to frame to start build.
You mean almost identical in dimensions, right? But this is good only for people who want to build replicas.
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Originally posted by Australian: It is as good as you build it not many other cars have as much room for improvement. If you want stock best bang for buck no mods buy something else.
This is what I was afraid I would end up finding out. Because I like the Fiero
Yes, I want stock best bang for buck no mods. I'm looking for an affordable mid-engine sports car to have fun with without having to rebuild the whole thing for it.
So it's looking like the best is to go with a MR2 MKII? Or what else would you suggest?
I'm glad I posted here though. I though if I posted in a Fiero forum I would only get fan replies and praise and not realistic ones. But I was afraid posting in a general car forum would produce mostly biased replies against the Fiero, because of it's bad reputation. Glad there are many realistic people here. Thanks for the honesty.
Not necessarily. Don't think of number of cylinders as what makes an engine heavy. A turbo 4 cylinder can weigh just as much as the stock 2.8, some V6s can weigh more than the 2.8, and a properly built V8 can weigh less than all of those.
Yeah, point taken. But I think a V8 is unnecessary. Unless what you want is to be able to say you have a V8. But for power a V6 can give plenty if well done. So many V6 cars beat V8 cars in performance.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Certainly you mean against American sports cars of the same era? Which is not saying much, as at that time the only real sports car made in the U.S. was the Corvette. The Vector was not in production yet and I doubt you are saying a Fiero can go against a Vector anyway. But it doesn't seem to me the Fiero would do well against Europeans of his time.
This is what I mean. If you think the Fiero can't go against a MKII MR2 it definitely can't go against a 1988 Porsche or Lotus or other similar Europeans.
Which Porsche? The Fiero can certainly stand up to almost any sports car in the same class of sports car, from the same era. The Fiero GT/Formula is pretty much on par with the base 1982-89 Porsche 944. But the 928, 968, and 911 are a different class. However, it is easy and much cheaper, to get to that level of performance, with a Fiero, and insurance and maintenance costs will also be much lower. A 3800 N/A swap will give you over 200 HP at the crank and you can get highway fuel economy in the high 30s for MPG.
It's certainly not a supercar, so comparing the Vector, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Lotus, etc… is not really appropriate.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Yeah, point taken. But I think a V8 is unnecessary. Unless what you want is to be able to say you have a V8. But for power a V6 can give plenty if well done. So many V6 cars beat V8 cars in performance.
Well, not really. You can't compare just the number of cylinders in cars, when you're saying one car is faster than the other. It depends on what the goal with the car is, as to which engine is "perfect" for it.
There are plenty of reasons to go with a V8 that are beyond just having the V8 sound or saying you have a V8. Mod for mod, more cylinders will give you more power over a broader range.
Really, any engine swap is "unnecessary." You can make a custom Y-pipe with a small turbo making ~8 PSI peak, throw it on a stock 2.8 that's in decent condition, fix the tune, and you'll be making over 200 HP at the crank.
Well, this doesn't mean the Esprit suspension is Chevette or that it has anything to do with the Fiero's. The Esprit has a very good suspension. It's a neck breaker for sure. But as sports suspensions go it is pretty good. If I knew the Fiero's suspension was that good I would not be here asking questions.
Well here is the deal. The Fiero is a Sports car and just because you call a car a sports car does not make it a Mclaren.
There are some factors to consider here.
#1 Few sports cars are perfect. Most have quirks and quality issues and the lower the price the more quirks you will have.
#2 The Fiero also has to be considered not only for price it originally was and is today but the time it was built few cars has much power then. At the time the Fiero was one of the better cars of the era for price and weight.
#3 The Fiero has its faults but it also has many other things going. For the most part you do not have the higher prices of many of the others. You also do not have the qaulity and reliability issues of a British car. You do have some rust but not like the Toyota or MG.
The truth is I can point out good and bad on most sports cars and I could nail about everyone you have listed here.
What it comes down to is you need to buy what you want and accept the issues with each model. Most Lotus have major build and qaulity issues. MR2 is expensive to fix and often rust out badly. MG Tend to rust out and have major electrical issues. Miata is reliable but far from fast. Even on the expensive cars like a Ferrari you have expensive maintenance bills and a major service at 30K miles few want to pay for and if you don't you run the risk of breaking a cam belt that will take the motor with it. 914 will rust in half, The Cayman is difficult and expensive to work on. The Opel is just a Lotus again expensive and just a little more reliable with the GM engine. You do remember Lotus built it and the VX not GM. They are still building cars in a old Spitfire hanger and are always on the edge of bankruptcy.
The key to the Fiero is the short comings generally are power and suspension and there are some easy fixes for both if you are willing to do it.
Few sports cars ride well. And most are not cheap to repair anymore.
The one car that generally bridged the gaps for cost, durability and ease to repair or modify is the Corvette. That is why it has enjoyed such a long run. Most 2 seat models generally last 5-10 years at best. The Corvette and Miata are two of the rare acceptations. They are both not perfect but they bridge the gaps on ride performance and affordability.
The most difficult car to build and sell in the industry is a sports car at a lower price. If it were easy we would see more of them.
The Fiero is not really over weight in todays terms. It is a heavier small car but still not bad compared to some others. The power is down but keep in mind most cheap small sports cars never were super cars it is like a go cart and made to drive with spirit not drive in F1.
The ride is stiff but so are most others.
Steering is heavy and the rear and front suspensions feel like they are working independent of each other in the 84-87. A few items can fix this as well as the under steer with a couple of simple add on bars.
The 88 is well sorted but the parts can be difficult to find at times since it was a one year suspension.
As for older sports cars the Fiero is still in the game. None of the cars in the segment are perfect and the prices are great on the Fiero. You can still find a low mile new model for under $15K in an 88 and less in other years.
You can get better cars for more but they often will cost more to not only buy but repair and modify.
It just comes down to what you want and are comfortable with as time goes on. Most here like doing their own mods and they like the cheaper prices as well as the durability of the car.
I would research and decide how much you want to spend on the car and how much you can afford for up keep over the time you plan to have it and then make your choice. A Fiero is not for everyone but neither is a Lotus, Toyota or Miata.
The bottom line is to accept in the start none of these cars are perfect and all will cost you money in someway. Just decide what fits your wallet best. I have seen Lotus and Ferraris bought by people with standard incomes. They could afford the car but ended up with a car they could not drive as they could not afford to fix the car or even do the repairs themselves. Talk about dashed dreams.
Most people have caviar wishes on a beer budget and need to plan appropriately not only for the purchase but to maintain the car. .
I also take it you may be in Europe with some of the cars you names. A Fiero there could be a more expensive and difficult car to deal with since few parts are available there. Just something to consider.
Hi,Are they as competent as say a MR2 or other Japanese sports cars of the time? Or even other older sports cars such as older Porsches? Or if I'm looking for a true sporty drive I better look else where? Thanks.
People have forgotten that the only thing the Japanese did was copy everyone else and sell that version at a lower price. Those products where cheap and well built but never compared to the originals in quality or performance, they are also also worth a lot less than the originals they copied today. Same thing the Chinese are doing now. Someday there will be young people that will prefer a Chinese car to a Japanese car. I see you driving the MR2 and it suits you. After all the car you choose to drive speaks volumes of who you are, right?
[This message has been edited by Jonathan Tate (edited 09-01-2016).]
Ultimately you need to drive all the cars your are interested in, define your budget and pick the one that best suits your personal preferences on power, braking, handling, build quality, and cost of ownership. Everyone is different and so are everyone's opinions.
For me, I like the simplicity of the Fiero and the general features (2 seat, mid engine, relatively stiff chassis, composite panels, 4 wheel independent suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes, and minimal computer integration into all the systems). Prior to Fieros, I was into C4 vettes and saw that the Fiero had potential and could be built with similar power/braking as the C4 Vette while being 400 lbs lighter. It isn't much fun in stock form, but is a great place to start the modification process. My 88 Fiero has evolved into something I would call a sports car... but it isn't perfect, it isn't the best of fastest and it needs painted, but it has 382 whp with supporting braking, suspension, wheels, & tire mods, tips the scales at 2800 lbs and gets 20-29 mpg depending on what I am doing with it. Overall, it simply is a whole lot of fun to drive and I put about 500 miles per week on it during the 2-3 seasons I drive it (about 34K miles on the swap in the past 3 years).
