I vote for dropping the front end down an inch or so in relation to the back. The 88's all sat too high in the front from the factory.
This is my stock Formula. I put on Rodney's upper and lower ball joints. Just the standard ones. If I need to I can go to the lowering ones later if I choose. I had the original factory ones on there and they were a total PITA to remove. But I have to second Pat's opinion on the stance. Does sit a bit high.
Lol Well this has been entertaining and educational.
As a sports car? I love it, and will own it until I die.
I'm not interested in pushing the car too hard, so what it can do with my driving style makes me happy.
Maybe I just need to drive one of these dang mr2s of the same age, because I doubt 2 or 3 hundred pounds would make a difference unless there was a significant percentage more provided in horsepower or an improved suspension design.
I doubt that the 88 GT is any different in size than the 88 formula. I thought the only difference was the exterior paneling by a few inches longer.
I'd say that the Pontiac Fiero has a great sports car appearance. As for its performance in the turns, some good modifications can get you a decent handling car comparable to cars of that era. Great driving fun but not for modern day competition. As for straight line drag performance; change engines and the sky is the limit. Is it a good "sports car" - yes for the money and vintage.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 09-08-2016).]
They're drafty, ride rough, and leak oil. Of course they're sports cars.
"sports car" has meant many things over the years. From an MGA to the latest Corvette and myriads of others. Forget what the term means and drive one. If it makes you smile, then it's a sports car.
I think most of the problem with the 'stance' on the Fiero is not that the nose is high, its that the front wheel openings cut farther up than the rears. They should have made the front and rear openings the same.
In the mean time I have decided the Fiero is worth a look as a sports car. So I will be looking for a clean 1988 car. I'm not expecting a stock Fiero to handle like a new Ferrari or R8. I actually think I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from it based on all the replies here. I'm more interested now in understanding how much I can improve it to move it towards handling like that Ferrari or R8.
My Ferrari kit (86SE) had a built 3.1 with turbocharger. All the suspension and brakes were bone stock with the exception of Bilstein shocks and struts. It handled awesome in my opinion. I could take just about any curve with no problem at 2 or 3 times the posted speed. In 8 years of thrashing it around, I cant remember ever getting it close to out of control.
I think most of the problem with the 'stance' on the Fiero is not that the nose is high, its that the front wheel openings cut farther up than the rears. They should have made the front and rear openings the same.
I suspect the front and rear openings are the same size. You can't go by how much of the opening appears to be "cut" above the belt line (if that's how you're judging it), as the belt line drops towards the front (as it follows the angle of the hood).
And besides, it's only the 88's that appear to sit too high in relation to the back.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-08-2016).]
Originally posted by Rn2016: Also the chop tops must play some role in safety and rigidity? If you roll over in a chop top you will sure get hurt more? And are all people who do chop tops shorter than 6'? Because how do they fit in it?
Those were just things I picked up on during my Fiero research which made me curious.
It's not just your height, but how long is your torso? I am 5' 10" with a short torso (32 inch inseam) and I have about 6 inches above my head in an Archie chop top. In fact my seats were lowered one inch and I can barely see over the dashboard. I had to add an inch of foam to my seats to get some height back.
Not necessarily. Stretching opens up a whole new range of engine swaps as well, and it's much easier to fit a longitudinal swap in. Depending on how well the stretch is done, the rigidity may remain as well. It's also common with such stretched builds to go with the wider track suspension setup too, which helps in the handling department.
OK. But the changing in balance just has to affect something. It's physically impossible to move the engine farther back and not have it affect the car.
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Originally posted by dobey:The chop tops should be just as safe and rigid as the stock Fiero, really. The outer surrounding structural metal remains in tact. It might even be slightly better, as the angle of the A pillars is lowered a tiny bit, which is more likely to result in anything hitting the windshield area to be deflected up and over the car, assuming weight, velocity, and angle of impact aren't enough to overcome that of course. I think many of the taller folk with the chop top also lower the seats. Everyone I know that owns a chopped Fiero though, is like 6'3" tall.
I'm 6'.1" but I wouldn't want to lower the seats. I have not been in a Fiero for a long time, but I remember the seats were low enough. I think it was lower than the 300ZX and RX7 for example. I wouldn't want to sit on the floor.
But what I mean about not being as safe with a chop top in the case of a roll over is not about only rigidity. If you have less head room you are more likely to hit the roof with your head in the case of a roll over. Even without rolling over, if you go through a large bump or something.
Usually when they stretch it they also widen the stance. Sometimes changing the control arms too. No reason it should harm the ride IMO when math is done right.
Now THAT would be a difficult task. Stretching seems to be easy enough. Just cut the frame behind the seats and add a piece of metal etc. Then fill in the small gap in the rear quarter plastic panel. But making it wider would mean a new windshield, rear window and a full patch around the middle of the whole frame and body work.
Originally posted by Rn2016: OK. But the changing in balance just has to affect something. It's physically impossible to move the engine farther back and not have it affect the car.
I'm 6'.1" but I wouldn't want to lower the seats. I have not been in a Fiero for a long time, but I remember the seats were low enough. I think it was lower than the 300ZX and RX7 for example. I wouldn't want to sit on the floor.
But what I mean about not being as safe with a chop top in the case of a roll over is not about only rigidity. If you have less head room you are more likely to hit the roof with your head in the case of a roll over. Even without rolling over, if you go through a large bump or something.
RE: balance, sure. However, you're not only moving the engine further back. You're also increasing the wheelbase of the car. In most all cases, when a stretch is done, the track is also widened, because it's for a kit car. A longitudinal swap also moves more weight to the middle of the car, and moves some of it back forward. Despite the change in balance even if it's a stock-ish body Fiero that's been stretched, and the engine was moved further back, it may actually handle a bit better due to the increased length of the wheelbase.
As for safety, yes the roof might be closer to your head, but you also just lowered the center of gravity by moving all the weight of the roof 3" lower. So the likelihood of a rollover is also decreased a fair bit. I'm not entirely sure on what the increase in down force would be at speed either, if any, but I can see how a Fiero with the wing and a choptop would have decently improved down force at speed too. Do you plan on driving off an embankment? Unless you literally drive it off a cliff, or install worn out suspension components with loose bolts so it will fly apart, rolling even a stock Fiero is extremely unlikely.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Now THAT would be a difficult task. Stretching seems to be easy enough. Just cut the frame behind the seats and add a piece of metal etc. Then fill in the small gap in the rear quarter plastic panel. But making it wider would mean a new windshield, rear window and a full patch around the middle of the whole frame and body work.
You don't make everything wider. The kits that stretches are usually done for, tend to have bodies wider than the Fiero. The only thing on the Fiero chassis itself that is made wider, is the suspension. See for example the "wide track" kit from Arraut Motorsports. The suspension mounts to the chassis in the same spots, but the arms are longer and move the hubs out about 3" for a wider track width. This also allows much wider tires while keeping a sane offset in the wheels.
But so guys, I have been looking around and making some cost estimates.
I always liked the Fiero. To me it's one of the most interesting American cars ever made. Rear mid engine, sports car, 2 seats etc. So it would be nice to have one.
But I'm not about the looks only. Looks mean nothing if the performance can't match. Like people who add body kits, wings etc to Civics and other cars but do nothing with the engine, suspension etc. So it's just to pose.
I like that the Fiero has the looks and some performance. But most importantly, it seems to have a lot of potential to make it a great performer. Because I don't want to just cruise around. I want to drive it hard. It has to perform besides only looking good. I don't want a poser's car or a show car. I want a driver's car. It will not be a daily driver. But not just a 3 times a year weekend driver either. I will not drive it on snow but during summer I want to enjoy it as much as possible. Bring it to 1 or 3 autocross events a year and just enjoy in on back roads.
So I started looking around for options and costs of an engine swap and I was a bit shocked. It's nice that there are so many options for the engine. But I checked the prices of the kit needed for a 3800 SC swap and it came up to over 5K and this is before we even speak of the cost of the engine itself.
This makes me worry. How much do you recon a 3800 SC swap costs, total, including the engine?
What I fear is that to bring the car up to a good sports car performance level it will cost me too much to the point I could buy a good sports car off the bat.
If 5K only for an engine kit plus another 5K for the car itself I'm already at 10K. This without the engine, suspension or break upgrades. If I don't do it myself, then labor needs to be added too.
But starting at 15K I can already get good sports cars which handle great and will keep up with most Ferraris in the handling department. In the 15-20K range I can get cars such as a Lotus Elise, Porsche Cayman and even a Lotus Esprit which is not only a sports car but considered a supercar.
I know it will probably be cheaper to own the Fiero. But when you consider all the work that will go into it, plus the fact you will never get your money back, because no matter what you do it will stay a Fiero, it makes you question things.
I don't care about pedigree. This is not it. I'm thinking practicability here. The Lotus and Porsche are ready. I don't need to do any upgrades. Then if I want to sell, any money I spend on them, if I want to upgrade anything, will have more value than in the Fiero. This is before considering if the Fiero, even after spending the same money on it and time on it, will perform as well as these cars.
So the Fiero at a lower value is a good proposition. At Cayman and Elise prices, I'm not so sure.
The question is, how much should I expect to spend for an engine swap and suspension, brakes etc upgrade? And after all that will it even perform as well as a Cayman or Elise?
Don't get me wrong. I would love to drive the Fiero. I like like the car overall. But like I said, I need to consider all angles before diving into this head first.
RE: balance, sure. However, you're not only moving the engine further back. You're also increasing the wheelbase of the car. In most all cases, when a stretch is done, the track is also widened, because it's for a kit car. A longitudinal swap also moves more weight to the middle of the car, and moves some of it back forward. Despite the change in balance even if it's a stock-ish body Fiero that's been stretched, and the engine was moved further back, it may actually handle a bit better due to the increased length of the wheelbase.
As for safety, yes the roof might be closer to your head, but you also just lowered the center of gravity by moving all the weight of the roof 3" lower. So the likelihood of a rollover is also decreased a fair bit. I'm not entirely sure on what the increase in down force would be at speed either, if any, but I can see how a Fiero with the wing and a choptop would have decently improved down force at speed too. Do you plan on driving off an embankment? Unless you literally drive it off a cliff, or install worn out suspension components with loose bolts so it will fly apart, rolling even a stock Fiero is extremely unlikely.
What you say makes sense. But I still think the balance is affected. But yes it will depend on what is done and how it's done. A Longitudinal swap definitely would behave differently and possibly off set some of the weight back towards the front. It also depends how long of a stretch. A 3" stretch would barely have any impact while some stretches I have seen at 11" or even 13" definitely change the dynamics.
You don't make everything wider. The kits that stretches are usually done for, tend to have bodies wider than the Fiero. The only thing on the Fiero chassis itself that is made wider, is the suspension. See for example the "wide track" kit from Arraut Motorsports. The suspension mounts to the chassis in the same spots, but the arms are longer and move the hubs out about 3" for a wider track width. This also allows much wider tires while keeping a sane offset in the wheels.
But then it would look a little funny, no? It would mean making only the sides wider but not the cabin. It would be noticeable. In a Lamborghini the cabin is probably wider too. Not just fat sides. I'm talking for replicas, which is when I think people would mostly bother with stretching and widening.
Not that I have any intentions of making a replica myself. None at all. I was just curious about the functionality of the thing besides just the looks.
In a situation where you stretch the chassis in order to fit a longitudinal engine, the engine is probably not being moved back. The axle centerline is, which actually puts more engine weight in front of the rear axle rather than directly on top of it. It may actually improve balance. Add to that the wider suspension and, so long as it's done well, you are probably improving the car. You're hung up on what GM originally made, as if they calculated what the perfect wheelbase and track width and weight distribution was and it happened to match their parts bin perfectly.
As a bone stock car, my first Fiero was fun. It was an 85 GT I bought for $900 and drove for two years. My biggest complaints were brakes and the terrible automatic. I think the v6 would've JUST been adequate with a 5spd. I now have a rough 86 SE I'm planning on stretching for a longitudinal v8/6sp. The engine will be firmly in front of the rear axle. And I'll be using c6 corvette brakes and suspension. I think it'll move like a proper sports car. The hard part will be building a body that still looks like it has Fiero DNA. If I wanted a stock car, I'd buy an 87-88 GT 5spd with T-tops or leave the Fiero entirely.
Originally posted by Rn2016: But then it would look a little funny, no? It would mean making only the sides wider but not the cabin. It would be noticeable. In a Lamborghini the cabin is probably wider too. Not just fat sides. I'm talking for replicas, which is when I think people would mostly bother with stretching and widening.
Not that I have any intentions of making a replica myself. None at all. I was just curious about the functionality of the thing besides just the looks.
No, the cabin in a real Lamborghini isn't really wider by any significant amount, and even to make the interior seem wider, you wouldn't need to cut the whole chassis in half and widen it. Mostly it's just that the door panels are pretty fat.
Originally posted by Rn2016: But starting at 15K I can already get good sports cars which handle great and will keep up with most Ferraris in the handling department. In the 15-20K range I can get cars such as a Lotus Elise, Porsche Cayman and even a Lotus Esprit which is not only a sports car but considered a supercar.
I know it will probably be cheaper to own the Fiero. But when you consider all the work that will go into it, plus the fact you will never get your money back, because no matter what you do it will stay a Fiero, it makes you question things.
Well, you're not likely going to get your money back on those European cars either. Sure you can buy a used Cayman for $20K. But new it was $60K. Same with the Elise and Esprit. If you buy one and get bored quick, you might be able to sell it for what you put into it, assuming you don't do any mods and it doesn't need any repairs. But if you keep it 5, 10, 20 years, you're almost certainly not going to get back what you put into it for maintenance, let alone the insurance costs.
Heck, just on insurance and fuel costs, you'll save a ridiculous amount of money over that time. Especially if you're just going to do a 3800 swap in the Fiero, and end up buying one that's less than $5K. The 3800 is one of the cheapest and easiest swaps you can do. And if you do the N/A versus the S/C 3800, with a 5 or 6 speed manual, you'll probably be getting 38+ MPG on the highway.
Sure, the Fiero will still be a Fiero, but if you're buying a car as an investment, you've already lost.
I'd totally rock a Cayman S. And I'd rock an Elise. But I couldn't find either in the 15k range. Those are among the few sports cars my girlfriend actually likes and immediately says "ok" to when I say we should buy one. I wish I could find them so cheap. As for the Esprit...I think you'll be badly disappointed if you're expecting a super car. The Fiero isn't on the same level as any of those cars. If you're looking for that, and you aren't willing to heavily modify the Fiero, then it isn't for you.
No, the cabin in a real Lamborghini isn't really wider by any significant amount, and even to make the interior seem wider, you wouldn't need to cut the whole chassis in half and widen it. Mostly it's just that the door panels are pretty fat.
Actually the cabin in a Countach is very wide. Like you said the sides are pretty much flat but the car is still very wide at around 79". While the Fiero is a full 20" narrower at 69".
Well, you're not likely going to get your money back on those European cars either. Sure you can buy a used Cayman for $20K. But new it was $60K. Same with the Elise and Esprit. If you buy one and get bored quick, you might be able to sell it for what you put into it, assuming you don't do any mods and it doesn't need any repairs. But if you keep it 5, 10, 20 years, you're almost certainly not going to get back what you put into it for maintenance, let alone the insurance costs.
Heck, just on insurance and fuel costs, you'll save a ridiculous amount of money over that time. Especially if you're just going to do a 3800 swap in the Fiero, and end up buying one that's less than $5K. The 3800 is one of the cheapest and easiest swaps you can do. And if you do the N/A versus the S/C 3800, with a 5 or 6 speed manual, you'll probably be getting 38+ MPG on the highway.
Sure, the Fiero will still be a Fiero, but if you're buying a car as an investment, you've already lost.
I'm not looking at a car as an investment. I'm just trying to see what makes the most financial sense to help weighing on things.
Yes, fuel and running costs may be less with the Fiero. But insurance not really. If I spent 20K on it I would want to insure it for that. So it would be the same as the Lotus or Porsche. Otherwise if I crash my 20K Fiero and only get 5K back I lost the rest.
Sure I will not get maintenance money back from any car. But a Porsche or Lotus will be worth more money than a Fiero down the road any way you look at it. So if you are spending as much on a Fiero as you would to buy a Porsche or Lotus it means you are guaranteed to lose more money on the Fiero regardless. This is all I'm saying.
And with the Cayman and Elise you absolutely don't need any upgrades. Unless you really want. So it's a buy it and drive it situation vs a buy it, put in a lot of thought, planning and work in it, then money, then drive it.
And in the end of day, will the Fiero at least match the performance of the Lotus and Cayman after all the work and money spent? This is the million dollar question.
I'd totally rock a Cayman S. And I'd rock an Elise. But I couldn't find either in the 15k range. Those are among the few sports cars my girlfriend actually likes and immediately says "ok" to when I say we should buy one. I wish I could find them so cheap. As for the Esprit...I think you'll be badly disappointed if you're expecting a super car. The Fiero isn't on the same level as any of those cars. If you're looking for that, and you aren't willing to heavily modify the Fiero, then it isn't for you.
Yes, this is what I'm looking for when I say sports car. The Elise specially is the text book definition of a sports car IMO. The Cayman is also a great sports car. Although honestly when it comes to the looks I prefer the Fiero. The Esprit though is a different thing. I prefer it in every way over any of the other 3.
By the way, the Esprit is very much a supercar. In every way. By consideration, by definition and by performance. The Esprit V8 is as fast and handles as well as any Ferrari V8 of it's time. The older 4 banger turbos could also easily keep up with the V8s of it's day. I'm not sure if you ever drove one. But they are awesome cars in every way but internal space for very tall people. But then again most supercars are cramped.
Back to the Fiero, so it is possible to have the Fiero keeping up with these cars, if I as you say heavily modify the Fiero? What would you say would need to be done? And would you have any idea of costs?
Now it just sounds like you're trying to come up with excuses to talk yourself out of wanting to get a Fiero.
Just go drive one already and either buy one or don't. Nobody on here can tell you if you will prefer the Fiero to an Elise or Cayman, or not. Go drive them all and buy the one you like best.
The simple fact of the matter is that Porsche, Chevy, Nissan, etc have spent gobs of money, computer time and 'expert time' tuning and setting up new cars....They are wonderful, no question....The biggest problem with new cars tho, is that you are becoming more & more isolated from what the car is doing....In older cars, you felt like you had really accomplished something when you ran a good time down a canyon road, but the new cars are doing 50-75% of the work for you. And no, I'm not talking about bad quirks but simply a car set up properly to do what you want while not eliminating any effort on your part. If new cars get much worse, we might as well drive a computer game!
The Fiero is actually not that bad a car when compared to 308s, early Espirts, Panteras....No, it doesn't have the cachet, but it works better as a car, while giving you some of the thrill of a mid-engined sports car. Also, realize that you can do the mods in stages; Do a brake upgrade this year, next year the suspension, and the following year, the engine upgrade.....It's nice to throw your money down and have someone hand you a finished product, but for me, it's better to have built it myself(Wait! Why is my garage on fire?!)
Someone installed C5 Vette rims & tires(245 frt/275 rear) on a Fiero- they fit, but they were a little tall- would have been perfect if the tire profiles had been slightly shorter(45 series down to 40 series, etc)...You really don't need to flare the body to get it to run with the big boys....As for the engine swap- well, it is money related- How fast do you want to pay? If you can take your time, you can get the engine swap done much cheaper.....Be patient, take your time, get a good deal on the engine and maybe even get a deal on a swap kit that someone else had to give up on. And remember, the Fiero only weighs 26-2800(Depending on engine swap) so even 200 hp is going to feel great- Most of the new cars have 400hp, but they weigh almost 4000! An NA 3.8 or the 3900 would be very good in a Fiero(The 3900 seems like it would be the ultimate last step in the original Fiero concept- and it's actually LIGHTER than the 2.8...If I installed one in my Fiero, it would be under 2600 w/240 hp...)
Now it just sounds like you're trying to come up with excuses to talk yourself out of wanting to get a Fiero.
Just go drive one already and either buy one or don't. Nobody on here can tell you if you will prefer the Fiero to an Elise or Cayman, or not. Go drive them all and buy the one you like best.
Now I'm confused. It's like you read a different reply than I wrote. I never asked anybody if they like the Elise or Cayman better than the Fiero. Neither did I ask which anybody here thought I would prefer.
And to the contrary. I am NOT trying to talk myself out of wanting to get a Fiero. I'm trying to talk myself IN.
As in talking myself into buying a Fiero and having to mod it as opposed to just get a ready sports car. So I need to know where I stand, where I'm starting from with the Fiero and how far I can take it.
So I have no idea what you mean by me trying to come up with excuses to talk myself out of wanting to get one. If I didn't want to get one, I would not get one. I don't need to come up with excuses.
As for driving all of them. I have driven all the cars we are talking about here. I've driven the Cayman, Elise and Esprit. This is how I know they are great sports cars. Unfortunately I never drove a Fiero. I only rode on one. A GT way back in the 2000's.
But I think if I would drive the Fiero and compare to driving a Cayman, Elise or Esprit the Fiero would lose for sure. Based on the replies here and what I know about the Fiero I have very little doubt. But it wouldn't be a fair comparison. So driving it wouldn't help anything. Unless I could find a modified Fiero. But the chances for that are slim. A stock Fiero wouldn't help anything. I would be buying the car already knowing I need to modify it to have what I want. So what would be the point of driving a stock one? To unfairly disqualify it?
This is why I'm reaching out to people who have experience with the car and hopefully know what is possible with it.
The simple fact of the matter is that Porsche, Chevy, Nissan, etc have spent gobs of money, computer time and 'expert time' tuning and setting up new cars....They are wonderful, no question....The biggest problem with new cars tho, is that you are becoming more & more isolated from what the car is doing....In older cars, you felt like you had really accomplished something when you ran a good time down a canyon road, but the new cars are doing 50-75% of the work for you. And no, I'm not talking about bad quirks but simply a car set up properly to do what you want while not eliminating any effort on your part. If new cars get much worse, we might as well drive a computer game!
We are in full agreement here. But no Esprit is like this. It's not only the early ones. Even the late V8s are not. The Elise is also not. The Porsche...well, yes more so than the Lotus but the 1st gen Cayman is not that bad either.
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Originally posted by cvxjet:The Fiero is actually not that bad a car when compared to 308s, early Espirts, Panteras....No, it doesn't have the cachet, but it works better as a car, while giving you some of the thrill of a mid-engined sports car. Also, realize that you can do the mods in stages; Do a brake upgrade this year, next year the suspension, and the following year, the engine upgrade.....It's nice to throw your money down and have someone hand you a finished product, but for me, it's better to have built it myself(Wait! Why is my garage on fire?!)
I understand what you mean when you say 308s Panteras etc. I agree.
But while I don't need traction control and any of the idiot-proof electronic or computer driving aids and I definitely don't need automatic or even sequential (just a manual please), I do need a good suspension, brakes and chassis.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-09-2016).]
Originally posted by Rn2016: Now I'm confused. It's like you read a different reply than I wrote. I never asked anybody if they like the Elise or Cayman better than the Fiero. Neither did I ask which anybody here thought I would prefer.
And to the contrary. I am NOT trying to talk myself out of wanting to get a Fiero. I'm trying to talk myself IN.
You keep trying to bring in other things compare it to, whether it is about raw performance, handling, or investment value. I didn't say you were asking if anybody likes the Porsche/Lotus/whatever more than a Fiero. But you are constantly asking to compare a Fiero to these cars, as if you're trying to decide between a Fiero and these other cars. What I said was, we can't tell you which one YOU will like better. Only you can determine that.
The only way you're going to make a decision about what you want, is if you go drive the cars you're thinking about, and then pick one. The fact is that you can build the Fiero to perform however you want it to. All it takes is time, skill, and money. However, even though it can perform that well, it will still be a Fiero, as you said. If that's not what you want, then a Fiero probably isn't what you want. But again, just go drive one and see for yourself.
You keep trying to bring in other things compare it to, whether it is about raw performance, handling, or investment value. I didn't say you were asking if anybody likes the Porsche/Lotus/whatever more than a Fiero. But you are constantly asking to compare a Fiero to these cars,
Actually I'm not really asking people to compare the Fiero to the Lotus or Porsche. Like I said, in stock form is to be expected the Fiero wouldn't do well. So I don't need to ask for that because I'm pretty sure about the answer by now. What I asked instead was, can the Fiero be built to be comparable to them and at what cost? This is a very different question.
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Originally posted by dobey: as if you're trying to decide between a Fiero and these other cars.
But I am.
Let's put it this way. An upgraded Fiero for 10K total that handles and keeps up with the Lotus and Porsche? No brainer. Fiero! I like it better anyway and even if it was about 90% of the other 2 I would probably go for it at that price. But if it will take 15-20K to make the Fiero come close and even then it won't really keep up, then yes, I have a difficult decision to make.
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Originally posted by dobey: What I said was, we can't tell you which one YOU will like better.
I know. And I'm not asking you to.
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Originally posted by dobey: Only you can determine that.
The only way you're going to make a decision about what you want, is if you go drive the cars you're thinking about, and then pick one. The fact is that you can build the Fiero to perform however you want it to. All it takes is time, skill, and money. However, even though it can perform that well, it will still be a Fiero, as you said. If that's not what you want, then a Fiero probably isn't what you want. But again, just go drive one and see for yourself.
Like I said above, what is the point of driving a stock Fiero to compare it to a Elise or Cayman?
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-09-2016).]
Like I said above, what is the point of driving a stock Fiero to compare it to a Elise or Cayman?
What is the point of comparing it to an Elise or Cayman?
The point of driving a stock Fiero is to see if you even like the car. Maybe it could be faster or turn quicker, but can you see everything you need to see out of it? Even with it being stock, does it feel fun to drive, to you personally? Do you like the interior?
Stop trying to compare it to other cars and just go drive one and see if you want it. BTW, I never said you had to drive a stock one. There are people selling swapped ones all the time. I have no idea where you are located, so I can't tell you where to look specifically to go drive one. You'll have to just go look, and find someone to let you drive one. I'm sure there are owners somewhere near you (unless you're off in Europe or something).
Can the Fiero be built to be comparable to a Cayman or an Elise? The Elise, probably so, but it will always be heavier. The Cayman? With infinite cash, maybe. Realistically, I'd say it wouldn't be too hard to beat the Cayman on shear numbers like acceleration, lateral g, braking. Feel? Haven't driven a Cayman but it's often considered the best. Period. So good luck with that. General refinement? Again, good luck. Reliability? I actually think i can beat the Porsche. Pure pleasure and pride of driving and owning a car I built? I think so. Another little anecdote. My younger brother isn't a car guy, at all. Doesn't care, isn't interested, never will be. I'm a car and motorcycle fiend. I've got several bikes I've built that generally get attention everywhere. But my brother never had any interest, we could never connect on anything remotely gear head related. Until the first time he rode in my first Fiero. We drove down to Taco bell. Nothing exciting. No nice roads. No curves. No racing. A leisurely drive get a burrito. And he loved it. Loved the feeling. Loved the way the cabin felt with so much glass around you, the engine noise right there. He said it reminded him of riding in my Grandpa's v tail Bonanza with the sound and the huge greenhouse and the vibrations. He convinced to let him drive it home. And kept trying to get me to let him drive it around. The Elise might capture some of that. But I doubt the Cayman could. It's much too civilized.
I suspect the front and rear openings are the same size. You can't go by how much of the opening appears to be "cut" above the belt line (if that's how you're judging it), as the belt line drops towards the front (as it follows the angle of the hood).
And besides, it's only the 88's that appear to sit too high in relation to the back.
They are close to the same....but like you say the belt line molding drops in the front. You eye also sees the space between the front opening and the top of the hood, in comparison with the rear. Ya, the quarter panel is higher...I know that. Its all about appearance. The whole package 'appears' to make the car look like its setting higher in the front. Thats what your brain interprets from what your eyes see. The true way to tell if its actually higher in front is measure the ground clearance of the rocker panel at the front and the rear. if the car is level, it should be the same. Ill bet designers intentionally dropped the side molding to make it appear lower in front. They wanted a wedge shape over a box like a Citation.
Originally posted by TommyRocker: Can the Fiero be built to be comparable to a Cayman or an Elise? The Elise, probably so, but it will always be heavier. The Cayman? With infinite cash, maybe. Realistically, I'd say it wouldn't be too hard to beat the Cayman on shear numbers like acceleration, lateral g, braking. Feel? Haven't driven a Cayman but it's often considered the best. Period. So good luck with that. General refinement? Again, good luck. Reliability? I actually think i can beat the Porsche. Pure pleasure and pride of driving and owning a car I built? I think so.
Well, aside from "refinement" (though I suppose if you build a Fiero to be refined, it would match) I think you can build a Fiero to match the performance of the Cayman easily enough. I don't know anyone that's measured lateral g on a skidpad for a decently modified Fiero though, but it seems like with the right tires and suspension tuning, one could break 1.0g, especially starting with an 88. As for acceleration, with the right drivetrain and suspension, that shouldn't be hard either. The Cayman has a 12.7 second quarter mile time, and plenty of 3800 SC swaps have matched that, and even broken into the 11s. As for braking, well I guess installing big brakes and sticky tires (especially if the sticky tires are wider) will get the Fiero stopped pretty fast, especially getting vented rotors on the front.
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