They are close to the same....but like you say the belt line molding drops in the front. You eye also sees the space between the front opening and the top of the hood, in comparison with the rear. Ya, the quarter panel is higher...I know that. Its all about appearance. The whole package 'appears' to make the car look like its setting higher in the front. Thats what your brain interprets from what your eyes see. The true way to tell if its actually higher in front is measure the ground clearance of the rocker panel at the front and the rear. if the car is level, it should be the same. Ill bet designers intentionally dropped the side molding to make it appear lower in front. They wanted a wedge shape over a box like a Citation.
I just measured my '85 SE V6 w/88 rear subframe + some body mods; It is within 1/16" front & rear of rocker to ground- I have 16 x 7 wheels with 205/55 and 225/55 tires and, I believe, 86-87 GT front springs and coilovers in the rear.....Top of fender opening to center of rear axle is 14.75" and the front is 14.25"....It is approx' 1/4" lower than stock to the top of the roof. As a extra bit of info, a few years ago a friend let me use some vehicle scales used for shipping vehicles on aircraft(Very accurate); I had to adjust one of the rear coilovers slightly, but was able to get it to 570 on each front and 750 on each rear.
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 09-10-2016).]
Can the Fiero be built to be comparable to a Cayman or an Elise? The Elise, probably so, but it will always be heavier. The Cayman? With infinite cash, maybe.
With infinite cash there wouldn't be much point. Unless you were Pontiac trying to prove some point. Otherwise just buy a Cayman or something better with the infinite cash. This is my main point here.
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Originally posted by TommyRocker:Realistically, I'd say it wouldn't be too hard to beat the Cayman on shear numbers like acceleration, lateral g, braking.
Ok. Could you put a number ($) on this not too hard effort?
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Originally posted by TommyRocker: Feel? Haven't driven a Cayman but it's often considered the best. Period. So good luck with that.
The best feel? Not IMO. Elise is much nicer. Cayman drives like most Porsche cars. Very good, in terms of performance. Feeling? Give me an old American Muscle car anytime. The feeling is not the strong side of the Cayman, unless you like mild feelings. That Porsche purposefully cripples it so it won't compete with the 911 doesn't help matters.
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Originally posted by TommyRocker:General refinement? Again, good luck.
I really can do without all the tech. Don't need it. Refinement? Depends on what you mean exactly but I want a lot of that in my 4-door daily driver. Not in my sports car.
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Originally posted by TommyRocker:Reliability? I actually think i can beat the Porsche.
Really? With a Chevy? Very few cars can match the Germans in that. Only ones I can think about will be Japanese. Unless you are talking engine only. Then yes. If you put a good American V8 in there it's bullet proof. But construction and other things? Not sure.
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Originally posted by TommyRocker:Pure pleasure and pride of driving and owning a car I built? I think so.
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Originally posted by TommyRocker:Another little anecdote. My younger brother isn't a car guy, at all. Doesn't care, isn't interested, never will be. I'm a car and motorcycle fiend. I've got several bikes I've built that generally get attention everywhere. But my brother never had any interest, we could never connect on anything remotely gear head related. Until the first time he rode in my first Fiero. We drove down to Taco bell. Nothing exciting. No nice roads. No curves. No racing. A leisurely drive get a burrito. And he loved it. Loved the feeling. Loved the way the cabin felt with so much glass around you, the engine noise right there. He said it reminded him of riding in my Grandpa's v tail Bonanza with the sound and the huge greenhouse and the vibrations. He convinced to let him drive it home. And kept trying to get me to let him drive it around. The Elise might capture some of that. But I doubt the Cayman could. It's much too civilized.
And you would be right! Elise is a riot. Cayman like most Porsche cars, not really. Unless that is what you like. But like the 944, 928, Boxter and modern Carreras, it's kind of boring because somethings are a bit too good. The 914 for some reason is quite more fun. Even though it's slow. Never drove any of their special cars like the GT1 and others. I bet that is a very different feeling.
The math discrepancy may be "obvious", but the "typo" is not so "easy to spot".
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rn2016:
Countach is very wide... at around 79". While the Fiero is a full 20" narrower at 69".
[/QUOTE]
The math "discrepancy" IS the typo.
Unless you truly believe that an adult in the 21st century, typing on a computer which has at least half dozen calculation resources could not subtract 69 from 79.
It's clear I meant to type 10" and instead hit the number two accidentally.
Well, aside from "refinement" (though I suppose if you build a Fiero to be refined, it would match) I think you can build a Fiero to match the performance of the Cayman easily enough. I don't know anyone that's measured lateral g on a skidpad for a decently modified Fiero though, but it seems like with the right tires and suspension tuning, one could break 1.0g, especially starting with an 88. As for acceleration, with the right drivetrain and suspension, that shouldn't be hard either. The Cayman has a 12.7 second quarter mile time, and plenty of 3800 SC swaps have matched that, and even broken into the 11s. As for braking, well I guess installing big brakes and sticky tires (especially if the sticky tires are wider) will get the Fiero stopped pretty fast, especially getting vented rotors on the front.
Easily enough you say. Sounds to me maybe easier said than done? Would you risk to put a number ($) on it? Without even speaking of effort.
Unless you mean matching the Cayman's performance on a straight line. If that, then this is not what I'm interested. I want a sports car. Not really a drag racer.
Otherwise I'm all ears as to what you would do to the Fiero which would get it to easily match the Cayman. This is basically what I've been trying to get to since I brought the Lotus and Porsche up.
I think you would end up spending more than what you could buy an Elise or Cayman for.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-10-2016).]
Originally posted by Rn2016: The math "discrepancy" IS the typo.
Unless you truly believe that an adult in the 21st century, typing on a computer which has at least half dozen calculation resources could not subtract 69 from 79.
It's clear I meant to type 10" and instead hit the number two accidentally.
I think he means your sentence structure was also pretty bad there.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Easily enough you say. Sounds to me maybe easier said than done? Would you risk to put a number ($) on it? Without even speaking of effort.
Unless you mean matching the Cayman's performance on a straight line. If that, then this is not what I'm interested. I want a sports car. Not really a drag racer.
Otherwise I'm all ears as to what you would do to the Fiero which would get it to easily match the Cayman. This is basically what I've been trying to get to since I brought the Lotus and Porsche up.
I think you would end up spending more than what you could buy an Elise or Cayman for.
Less than $10K, including a car. 3800 SC with a few mods, good sticky tires, good brake upgrades, and spending the rest in suspension and tuning. If you end up getting a car with the stock 14" wheels though, you'll almost certainly be buying new wheels. Not sure if you like the 15" wheels or not. If you want really big brakes, you'll need to go to at least 17" wheels. The 3800 is easy enough to get up to the power level of the Cayman. If you're going for an 88 coupe body car to start with, then you're already at the lighter end of the Fiero spectrum. Some additional weight removal (which is basically free) and you could probably get the car down under 2600 lbs, making it 600 lbs lighter than a Cayman to start with. So the N/A 3800 might be enough to get you there, which you might be able to grab up a little cheaper, and they get much better MPG. With a little tuning, and maybe a few parts, you should be able to pop 240+ HP out at the crank, and get high 30s for highway MPG. With the suspension in the 88s, you can go fully adjustable.
Mostly it's a matter of patience. The less you have, the more it'll cost. But if you have it, then you can shop around and find a decent 88 coupe for cheap, and a decent engine as well. If you want the F40 six speed trans, you can find them fairly cheap still if you have patience these days, but they do require a fair bit more fabrication to get in than other options might. Another favored trans to swap in is the F23 from the early 2000s non-Ecotec J-body cars.
Reliability....Ummmm, it was an American named Deming who taught the Japanese quality control between 1950 and 1970, and then he came back to the states and taught TQM here from the late 1970s into the 90s.......The Fiero was the first American car built under Deming's TQM process....And no, the Fiero is not perfect- TQM takes time; You build something, then find the problems, correct, and continue. (I was actually trained in TQM at NAS Alameda).
At the moment, Porsche apparently has the best quality/reliability.....But shockingly, Mercedes is at the bottom....has been for at least a decade(Maybe not so shocking when you look at what they did with Chryco; The 3rd gen Dakota, 2nd gen Durango and the incomparably bad Caliber. Oh yeah, the 3rd gen Sebring.....wooof!)
Mercedes management is extremely arrogant...Some of the things that idiot Dieter Zetsche did while in charge of Chryco border on the insane......
It's clear I meant to type 10" and instead hit the number two accidentally.
Why would've that been clear?
For all we knew, the 20" difference in width could've been correct. The typo could've very easily been the number you typed for the width of either the Countach or the Fiero. Maybe it was supposed to be 89" instead of 79" for the Countach... or conversely, 59" instead of 69" for the Fiero.
Not a big deal, but the point I've been trying to make is that it isn't always obvious which incorrect word/number is the actual typo.
Less than $10K, including a car. 3800 SC with a few mods, good sticky tires, good brake upgrades, and spending the rest in suspension and tuning. If you end up getting a car with the stock 14" wheels though, you'll almost certainly be buying new wheels. Not sure if you like the 15" wheels or not. If you want really big brakes, you'll need to go to at least 17" wheels. The 3800 is easy enough to get up to the power level of the Cayman. If you're going for an 88 coupe body car to start with, then you're already at the lighter end of the Fiero spectrum. Some additional weight removal (which is basically free) and you could probably get the car down under 2600 lbs, making it 600 lbs lighter than a Cayman to start with. So the N/A 3800 might be enough to get you there, which you might be able to grab up a little cheaper, and they get much better MPG. With a little tuning, and maybe a few parts, you should be able to pop 240+ HP out at the crank, and get high 30s for highway MPG. With the suspension in the 88s, you can go fully adjustable.
Mostly it's a matter of patience. The less you have, the more it'll cost. But if you have it, then you can shop around and find a decent 88 coupe for cheap, and a decent engine as well. If you want the F40 six speed trans, you can find them fairly cheap still if you have patience these days, but they do require a fair bit more fabrication to get in than other options might. Another favored trans to swap in is the F23 from the early 2000s non-Ecotec J-body cars.
Less than 10K sounds really good.
Yes, cutting weight is a good thing. What are you considering removing to get the car under 2600 lbs?
It was mentioned before that the stock V6 is basically maxed out right? I wonder what is the limitation of that engine and why it can output only 140HP? GM makes another 2.8 V6 which can output 210HP and up to 320HP in the turbocharged version. This is LS V8 territory. Why is the stock V6 so bad? What is it's limitation?
The 1988 is what I want, but it's clearly way easier to find 86 and 87 cars. So what would it take exactly to get the 87 suspension up to 88 performance?
I think he's referring to the High Feature 2.8 in the Saabs, and they are all turbocharged. There is no N/A version, and it's 20 year newer engine family, that's also DOHC.
I think he's referring to the High Feature 2.8 in the Saabs, and they are all turbocharged. There is no N/A version, and it's 20 year newer engine family, that's also DOHC.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Less than 10K sounds really good.
Yes, cutting weight is a good thing. What are you considering removing to get the car under 2600 lbs?
It was mentioned before that the stock V6 is basically maxed out right? I wonder what is the limitation of that engine and why it can output only 140HP? GM makes another 2.8 V6 which can output 210HP and up to 320HP in the turbocharged version. This is LS V8 territory. Why is the stock V6 so bad? What is it's limitation?
The 1988 is what I want, but it's clearly way easier to find 86 and 87 cars. So what would it take exactly to get the 87 suspension up to 88 performance?
I don't know what all I'd remove to get it under 2600 lbs. At least for me, I don't care if I spend $30K on my car, so some of the lightening I will do will be in making custom parts in different materials. Steel is heavy. Carbon fiber and aluminum aren't so much. But I don't think it'd be too difficult to find ~50-100 lbs to shave off a coupe. If you don't care to have A/C, then heck, removing all the A/C components would probably knock 50-75 lbs off the car. If you don't need working heat in the cabin either, that's a lot more weight you can save by getting rid of the heater core and lines. I'm sure there's other things one can do as well.
The stock 2.8 is not at the limit of what you can get out of a 2.8. But getting all you can get out of a 2.8 is not cost effective. The intake is quite restrictive, for one. You can't get too much lift out of the valvetrain, it's a flat tappet cam, and the internals are all cast parts. The oiling system was also not great. There are plenty of things that combine to limit the 2.8. It's a 30 year old engine. The high output 2.8 you refer to can only be the High Feature V6 engine in the Saabs, which yes, can make quite a bit of power, but is a much newer engine design, is DOHC, built with better materials and many other things, and is turbocharged.
As for making the suspension in the pre-88 cars as good as the 88, the simplest thing to do for that, is fit an 88 cradle and suspension into the rear. But it would be better to just buy an 88 then. But really, you can build a fully custom suspension into the earlier cars that can rival the stock 88 suspension. It's just going to cost more money. If the suspension is more important to you than the engine, you should just start with an 88 though.
I think he's referring to the High Feature 2.8 in the Saabs, and they are all turbocharged. There is no N/A version, and it's 20 year newer engine family, that's also DOHC.
Yes, this is the engine I was referring to. But I'm pretty sure the version in the Cadillac CTS is N/A.
I didn't really look too close into the engine though. I was searching for GM V6 engines and looking only at displacement and output. SO MANY to look through.
I don't know what all I'd remove to get it under 2600 lbs. At least for me, I don't care if I spend $30K on my car, so some of the lightening I will do will be in making custom parts in different materials. Steel is heavy. Carbon fiber and aluminum aren't so much. But I don't think it'd be too difficult to find ~50-100 lbs to shave off a coupe. If you don't care to have A/C, then heck, removing all the A/C components would probably knock 50-75 lbs off the car. If you don't need working heat in the cabin either, that's a lot more weight you can save by getting rid of the heater core and lines. I'm sure there's other things one can do as well.
The stock 2.8 is not at the limit of what you can get out of a 2.8. But getting all you can get out of a 2.8 is not cost effective. The intake is quite restrictive, for one. You can't get too much lift out of the valvetrain, it's a flat tappet cam, and the internals are all cast parts. The oiling system was also not great. There are plenty of things that combine to limit the 2.8. It's a 30 year old engine. The high output 2.8 you refer to can only be the High Feature V6 engine in the Saabs, which yes, can make quite a bit of power, but is a much newer engine design, is DOHC, built with better materials and many other things, and is turbocharged.
As for making the suspension in the pre-88 cars as good as the 88, the simplest thing to do for that, is fit an 88 cradle and suspension into the rear. But it would be better to just buy an 88 then. But really, you can build a fully custom suspension into the earlier cars that can rival the stock 88 suspension. It's just going to cost more money. If the suspension is more important to you than the engine, you should just start with an 88 though.
So I guess even turbocharging the stock V6 would be out of the window.
Yeah, I guess 88 it is then. Just need to be more patient for the right 88 to pop up I guess.
I would want AC. In a rear middle engine car with a small cabin it can get pretty hot. Would also keep the heater. Small space gets foggy windows fast.
But I could dump electrical windows, power mirrors, power locks and other superfluous creature comforts if that would help shave off good weight. And are the leather seats heavy? Could lose them to and get lighter seats.
Now a bit off topic but still fitting since we spoke about the Esprit.
During the weekend I was talking to somebody who has a Esprit body lying around. He is pretty frustrated because he has it for a while and didn't get to do anything with it yet. I think he will probably never restore or finish the car.
So I joked we should put the body on a Fiero and told him about the Lambo replicas. I guess I got him going a bit as he got pretty interested and started asking questions about the Fiero. But I was of course only joking and throwing ideas around. I then had to tell him it was probably not possible and it would be easier to just restore the car to it's original form. Or sculpting a new Esprit look alike body to fit the Fiero rather than putting the original Esprit shell on the Fiero. But he was still not convinced. I guess he really just want to drive the Esprit any way he can after having got it for so long.
But the Esprit is a body shell over a backbone chassis and the Fiero is a space frame. Two totally different approaches. Not even talking about the sizes. But he got too excited about it and was just going on and on about how it was most likely possible. I mean what is he going to do, saw the bits off and bolt it on the space frame? Wouldn't look right and would be a waste of the Esprit body.
I kind of felt bad for starting him off on the thing. We had just met at a friend's place so it was the first time I spoke to him. But it was definitely an interesting talk.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-13-2016).]
I mean what is he going to do, saw the bits off and bolt it on the space frame? Wouldn't look right and would be a waste of the Esprit body.
Depending on the interference of the body with respect to the space frame, that's generally how it is done for replicas using a donor car. You cut off what interferes and add extra framing/mounting points as required. Stock panels are better than most fiberglass kits since they are designed to be bolted on... which makes mounting much easier. The space frame allows mods like this much more than if it were a unibody car. The first question should be what is the difference between the wheel bases of the two cars. The Fiero may need to be lengthened or shortened. (I haven't looked the numbers up, so no idea.) Even this isn't that hard to do. Only took me a week to stretch my Fiero almost a foot.
Yes, this is the engine I was referring to. But I'm pretty sure the version in the Cadillac CTS is N/A.
I didn't really look too close into the engine though. I was searching for GM V6 engines and looking only at displacement and output. SO MANY to look through.
Oh right, the CTS did have an N/A High Feature 2.8 for a couple years. However it was only rated at 210 HP, and only 194 lb-ft of torque. So it doesn't make a significant amount of torque more than the Fiero 2.8 does, it just has a redline that's about 1500 RPM higher. The Fiero intake, heads, and valvetrain, can't get enough air through to enable RPMs that high. It starts running out of breath after about 4400 RPM or so. It just still manages to make a little torque up to about 5200 RPM, where the peak HP rating is at. If it could be made to breathe, and have a stable valvetrain with decent lift, it could be made to rev a bit higher, and make similar power. However, it's just not cost effective to do so, when you can drop in a 3800 and already be beyond that point, and with a bunch more torque.
So I guess even turbocharging the stock V6 would be out of the window.
Yeah, I guess 88 it is then. Just need to be more patient for the right 88 to pop up I guess.
I would want AC. In a rear middle engine car with a small cabin it can get pretty hot. Would also keep the heater. Small space gets foggy windows fast.
But I could dump electrical windows, power mirrors, power locks and other superfluous creature comforts if that would help shave off good weight. And are the leather seats heavy? Could lose them to and get lighter seats.
You could turbo the stock V6, but I wouldn't go over about 8 PSI on stock internals. It would be easy enough to put something together, but again you're quickly running into the cost effectiveness problem. Do you spend $1500+ and however much time tuning it, to get the turbo working reliably, and still basically have a ticking time bomb of an engine, or just swap in the very reliable 3800 that will give you the same power N/A, and better MPG?
It can get hot depending on where you live, but if you live in an area where the summers are more tolerable, a Fiero without A/C is perfectly fine. There's two firewalls and multiple layers of insulation between the cabin and the engine bay. Unless you strip all that out, it's generally fine. I drove mine for like 10 years without working A/C. Admittedly it got pretty bad when I moved down South where the summers are long, hot and humid.
Heat and fogged windows, eh, it's really not bad unless you are also going to drive it in winter or rain. If you only drive it on mild/warm sunny days, it probably wouldn't be an issue either. My plan is to eventually build a solid state heating/cooling array, to save weight/energy, but until I get to that point, I'm going to be ripping the heat and A/C bits out.
The Fiero seats are kind of heavy. And leather is of course a little heavier than cloth. I'm not sure how many Formulas or coupes actually had the leather option on them though. I think most were cloth. Lightweight aftermarket seats would probably save a few pounds. The carpet/insulation is pretty heavy too. I'm going with a spray-on/brush-on insulation and sound deadener in my car, and thinner replacement carpet. Should save about 20 lbs there. if you want a V6 notchback 88, then you're only options are a Formula or swapped coupe car. All the power accessories were optional on them, so you might be able to find one without. Hard tops are lighter than sunroof or t-top cars as well, in case you care about that.
Depending on the interference of the body with respect to the space frame, that's generally how it is done for replicas using a donor car. You cut off what interferes and add extra framing/mounting points as required. Stock panels are better than most fiberglass kits since they are designed to be bolted on... which makes mounting much easier. The space frame allows mods like this much more than if it were a unibody car. The first question should be what is the difference between the wheel bases of the two cars. The Fiero may need to be lengthened or shortened. (I haven't looked the numbers up, so no idea.) Even this isn't that hard to do. Only took me a week to stretch my Fiero almost a foot.
Esprit wheelbase is 95-96 inches, depending on year. Fiero is 93.4. Less than 3 inches for the max difference.
Oh right, the CTS did have an N/A High Feature 2.8 for a couple years. However it was only rated at 210 HP, and only 194 lb-ft of torque. So it doesn't make a significant amount of torque more than the Fiero 2.8 does, it just has a redline that's about 1500 RPM higher. The Fiero intake, heads, and valvetrain, can't get enough air through to enable RPMs that high. It starts running out of breath after about 4400 RPM or so. It just still manages to make a little torque up to about 5200 RPM, where the peak HP rating is at. If it could be made to breathe, and have a stable valvetrain with decent lift, it could be made to rev a bit higher, and make similar power. However, it's just not cost effective to do so, when you can drop in a 3800 and already be beyond that point, and with a bunch more torque.
Yes like I said the N/A version was 210HP. But it's the very same engine which in turbocharged version makes 321HP. That is more than a stock LS4 for example. So the engine has a whole lot more potential than the stock V6 it seems. This was my point.
You could turbo the stock V6, but I wouldn't go over about 8 PSI on stock internals. It would be easy enough to put something together, but again you're quickly running into the cost effectiveness problem. Do you spend $1500+ and however much time tuning it, to get the turbo working reliably, and still basically have a ticking time bomb of an engine, or just swap in the very reliable 3800 that will give you the same power N/A, and better MPG?
It can get hot depending on where you live, but if you live in an area where the summers are more tolerable, a Fiero without A/C is perfectly fine. There's two firewalls and multiple layers of insulation between the cabin and the engine bay. Unless you strip all that out, it's generally fine. I drove mine for like 10 years without working A/C. Admittedly it got pretty bad when I moved down South where the summers are long, hot and humid.
Heat and fogged windows, eh, it's really not bad unless you are also going to drive it in winter or rain. If you only drive it on mild/warm sunny days, it probably wouldn't be an issue either. My plan is to eventually build a solid state heating/cooling array, to save weight/energy, but until I get to that point, I'm going to be ripping the heat and A/C bits out.
The Fiero seats are kind of heavy. And leather is of course a little heavier than cloth. I'm not sure how many Formulas or coupes actually had the leather option on them though. I think most were cloth. Lightweight aftermarket seats would probably save a few pounds. The carpet/insulation is pretty heavy too. I'm going with a spray-on/brush-on insulation and sound deadener in my car, and thinner replacement carpet. Should save about 20 lbs there. if you want a V6 notchback 88, then you're only options are a Formula or swapped coupe car. All the power accessories were optional on them, so you might be able to find one without. Hard tops are lighter than sunroof or t-top cars as well, in case you care about that.
At this point I don't think I care if it's a 88 coupe or fastback. I prefer the coupe. But if I find a 88 fastback which is right and for the right price I would probably just buy it. I can always change the fastback roof to a notchback later. I get the feeling 88 cars are rare enough that I shouldn't be too choosy.
I guess most of the weight comes from the frame itself. Pontiac really overdid that. It's basically an unibody instead of a real space frame. The up side to this is how safe the car ended up being.
According to some research a 1988 Formula will be around 2750lbs. Since the 3800 SC and most any other modern engine will be lighter than the stock V6, maybe I get a slight weight shave there. But if 2750lbs is already without power mirrors, power windows, power locks etc, then I'm not sure where else to shave weight or how you would get it under 2600lbs?
Maybe in the wheels but again it won't be much. I don't believe the Formula came with cast iron wheels.
The seats if they are heavy, even if only cloth I would take them off and install bucket seats. I don't need adjustable seats. I will just leave it at the most backwards position anyway. So if a simple bucket seat set up would save good weight I would just do that. But I don't mean plastic racing seats. There are even leather bucket seats. But without all the railing system for adjustment and also being not so bulky may save some weight.
Besides all the above I'm a little out of ideas for getting this fat lady on a diet. Short of going full racing and replacing glass with plexiglass and doing considerable mods to body structure, I guess there is nothing else that can b done to shave weight off.
Depending on the interference of the body with respect to the space frame, that's generally how it is done for replicas using a donor car. You cut off what interferes and add extra framing/mounting points as required. Stock panels are better than most fiberglass kits since they are designed to be bolted on... which makes mounting much easier. The space frame allows mods like this much more than if it were a unibody car. The first question should be what is the difference between the wheel bases of the two cars. The Fiero may need to be lengthened or shortened. (I haven't looked the numbers up, so no idea.) Even this isn't that hard to do. Only took me a week to stretch my Fiero almost a foot.
When you talk about donor car you are talking about the Fiero?
The Esprit is an unibody. The whole shell seats on the backbone chassis. Besides the trunk, hood and doors everything is one piece, including the floor. This is why I said the only way would be sawing off the bits and bolting it to the Fiero space frame. There is no interface on the Esprit body. It's an unibody shell.
Esprit wheelbase is 95-96 inches, depending on year. Fiero is 93.4. Less than 3 inches for the max difference.
Yes. But it's a much wider car too and not only the body. The track is wider as well. So the Fiero frame would have to be heavily modified. But I think this would be the easier part.
Fitting the Esprit body over it would be the hard part. Like I said it's an unibody shell. The roof line doesn't match the Fiero's either. It would not look like an original Esprit. It would end up looking like a kit car or something.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Yes like I said the N/A version was 210HP. But it's the very same engine which in turbocharged version makes 321HP. That is more than a stock LS4 for example. So the engine has a whole lot more potential than the stock V6 it seems. This was my point.
Well, that's at roughly 10 PSI of boost, which basically means it's the equivalent of a 4.3-4.5 liter N/A engine. It's also not the exact same engine. It's the same displacement, but lower compression.
The LS4 also has a fairly restrictive intake manifold, and a pretty mild camshaft due to the AFM feature. Even though it makes a little more peak HP than the stock LS4, it also makes slightly less peak torque.
Yes, the much newer DOHC 2.8 has a whole lot more potential for improvement than the 30 year old pushrod engine. But that's like saying an LSx is better than a Gen 1 SBC. Of course it is.
Yes. But it's a much wider car too and not only the body. The track is wider as well. So the Fiero frame would have to be heavily modified. But I think this would be the easier part.
Fitting the Esprit body over it would be the hard part. Like I said it's an unibody shell. The roof line doesn't match the Fiero's either. It would not look like an original Esprit. It would end up looking like a kit car or something.
Originally posted by Rn2016: At this point I don't think I care if it's a 88 coupe or fastback. I prefer the coupe. But if I find a 88 fastback which is right and for the right price I would probably just buy it. I can always change the fastback roof to a notchback later. I get the feeling 88 cars are rare enough that I shouldn't be too choosy.
I guess most of the weight comes from the frame itself. Pontiac really overdid that. It's basically an unibody instead of a real space frame. The up side to this is how safe the car ended up being.
According to some research a 1988 Formula will be around 2750lbs. Since the 3800 SC and most any other modern engine will be lighter than the stock V6, maybe I get a slight weight shave there. But if 2750lbs is already without power mirrors, power windows, power locks etc, then I'm not sure where else to shave weight or how you would get it under 2600lbs?
Maybe in the wheels but again it won't be much. I don't believe the Formula came with cast iron wheels.
The seats if they are heavy, even if only cloth I would take them off and install bucket seats. I don't need adjustable seats. I will just leave it at the most backwards position anyway. So if a simple bucket seat set up would save good weight I would just do that. But I don't mean plastic racing seats. There are even leather bucket seats. But without all the railing system for adjustment and also being not so bulky may save some weight.
Besides all the above I'm a little out of ideas for getting this fat lady on a diet. Short of going full racing and replacing glass with plexiglass and doing considerable mods to body structure, I guess there is nothing else that can b done to shave weight off.
Where did you get 2750 lbs for a bone stock Formula at? Was that one that was converted to electric? Including a driver? Bone stock Formula I think is somewhere right around 2600 lbs curb weight.
Also, the 3800 is not lighter than the Fiero 2.8, especially not the supercharged version. The 2.8 is around 375 lbs or so, and the 3800 N/A is almost 400. I think the supercharged 3800 is more like 440-450.
I think you're missing that the Esprit isn't really wider than the Fiero. They have roughly the same track width of 60". It varies less than an inch.
The Fiero is 69" wide while the Esprit is 73.2". And the biggest difference is the roof line. The Esprit A pillar is much more forward than the Fiero's. How would you fit a Esprit body on the Fiero frame? Look at side pictures of both cars and you will see what I mean. And then look at pictures of the Esprit body shell too.
Where did you get 2750 lbs for a bone stock Formula at? Was that one that was converted to electric? Including a driver? Bone stock Formula I think is somewhere right around 2600 lbs curb weight.
Also, the 3800 is not lighter than the Fiero 2.8, especially not the supercharged version. The 2.8 is around 375 lbs or so, and the 3800 N/A is almost 400. I think the supercharged 3800 is more like 440-450.
OK. I got the figures online obviously. Can't say if they are accurate.
But we still have the same problem. Where to cut more weight besides what I pointed out above? And since you have the car, do you think any of those things would cut enough weight to be worth bothering?
Well, that's at roughly 10 PSI of boost, which basically means it's the equivalent of a 4.3-4.5 liter N/A engine. It's also not the exact same engine. It's the same displacement, but lower compression.
The LS4 also has a fairly restrictive intake manifold, and a pretty mild camshaft due to the AFM feature. Even though it makes a little more peak HP than the stock LS4, it also makes slightly less peak torque.
Yes, the much newer DOHC 2.8 has a whole lot more potential for improvement than the 30 year old pushrod engine. But that's like saying an LSx is better than a Gen 1 SBC. Of course it is.
OK. But what about that as an alternative to the 3800 ?
Originally posted by Rn2016: The Fiero is 69" wide while the Esprit is 73.2". And the biggest difference is the roof line. The Esprit A pillar is much more forward than the Fiero's. How would you fit a Esprit body on the Fiero frame? Look at side pictures of both cars and you will see what I mean. And then look at pictures of the Esprit body shell too.
I wouldn't put an Esprit body on a Fiero, because the Esprit is a body-on-frame car, and the Fiero is a spaceframe. They are incompatible unless you want to seriously chop up the Esprit body.
The body might be slightly wider on the Esprit, but the track width is the same. I also have no bloody idea which Esprit you're talking about exactly. But yes, the windshield is laid back more on the Esprit, and it's slightly shorter I think. You'd have to chop the Fiero.
If you want an Esprit bodied Fiero, the best way would be to to chop the car, and make a body kit.
Originally posted by Rn2016: OK. I got the figures online obviously. Can't say if they are accurate.
But we still have the same problem. Where to cut more weight besides what I pointed out above? And since you have the car, do you think any of those things would cut enough weight to be worth bothering?
Well, it depends on how much you're willing to spend to lose weight, and how much work you're willing to do. I already gave plenty of suggestions in previous posts about carpet, HVAC, etc…
Personally, I plan to get my car (87 GT) down to around 2500 lbs curb weight. But I've already spent more on just my engine build alone than it seems like you're willing to spend on the car, so I'm not sure what else to tell you.
Originally posted by Rn2016: OK. But what about that as an alternative to the 3800 ?
Sure. It's going to be much more costly to swap in, it's not going to save you any weight over the 3800, and it's a physically larger engine, though.
If you want cheap, easy, reliable, and roughly 210-250 HP, then the N/A 3800 is really the best choice. If you're willing to spend more money and do a lot more work, then there are lots more options available of course. I'm not doing a 3800 in my car.
Sure. It's going to be much more costly to swap in, it's not going to save you any weight over the 3800, and it's a physically larger engine, though.
If you want cheap, easy, reliable, and roughly 210-250 HP, then the N/A 3800 is really the best choice. If you're willing to spend more money and do a lot more work, then there are lots more options available of course. I'm not doing a 3800 in my car.
Well, it depends on how much you're willing to spend to lose weight, and how much work you're willing to do. I already gave plenty of suggestions in previous posts about carpet, HVAC, etc…
Personally, I plan to get my car (87 GT) down to around 2500 lbs curb weight. But I've already spent more on just my engine build alone than it seems like you're willing to spend on the car, so I'm not sure what else to tell you.
Well, I'm willing to do anything to shave weight, as long as it's taking out and not exchanging or rebuilding, unless it's easy or cheap.
So basically I'm willing to rip out anything superfluous to shave weight.
I wouldn't put an Esprit body on a Fiero, because the Esprit is a body-on-frame car, and the Fiero is a spaceframe. They are incompatible unless you want to seriously chop up the Esprit body.
Well this is what I have been saying since I brought the topic up, right?
By the way, not to nitpick, but the Esprit is technically not a body-on-frame. Just to keep things clear because I couldn't tell what was saying or when he was referring to the Fiero or Esprit in his post.
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Originally posted by dobey:The body might be slightly wider on the Esprit, but the track width is the same. I also have no bloody idea which Esprit you're talking about exactly. But yes, the windshield is laid back more on the Esprit, and it's slightly shorter I think. You'd have to chop the Fiero.
There are basically only 2 Esprit shapes and for the sake of this discussion it doesn't make much difference which one. Both shapes will present the same problems in adapting to the Fiero space frame. But his body is a S3.
The problem with the windshield is not that it is laid back more. This you can do with a chop top job on the Fiero. The problem is that the Esprit front end is shorter. Meaning the A pilar starts closer to the front wheel than the Fiero, which has a longer front end. This as far as I can see would be a very hard and complex change as it would mean messing with the whole car structure. This was what I was referring to when I asked if I was missing something, which I don't think I am. You not only need to stretch the wheelbase in the Fiero. You would need to extend the Fiero's cabin too to have it more off set frontwards like the Esprit.
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Originally posted by dobey:If you want an Esprit bodied Fiero, the best way would be to to chop the car, and make a body kit.
Originally posted by Rn2016: What engine are you swapping in?
Well, it started life as an LS4. But the block and head castings, main caps, and minor things like some seals, plugs, and rear cover are literally the only things left from the stock engine that are getting used in the build.
Originally posted by Rn2016: Again this is all I have been saying.
Confusing. Was my point not clear before?
No, I'm not confused at all. And I wasn't disagreeing that putting an original Esprit body on a Fiero made no sense.
I was simply pointing out that the wheelbase and track width are virtually the same as the Fiero. However, the FIero is a transverse drivetrain, while the Esprit is longitudinal. This means the cabin is further forward, but the back end is longer, compared to the Fiero. If you wanted to turn a Fiero into an Esprit, so that the body lines could match up, it would be cheaper to just buy an Esprit.
