I did the same thing, went with a stock clutch because the cost of the swap was too high, and I hate myself to this day for it. The clutches would burst into pieces, leavingme stranded on three seperate occasions. If I add up all the time and towing that it took befroe I got fed up bit the bullet and bought the stage two (minimum I wuld use on ths motor) I proly would be able to do another swap. It really wasnt worht it even though I had a lifetime warranty on the clutch.
I really doubt ANYBODY can take it easy with that motor back there begging to be reved, and right when you start to love it, you downshift to hear it roar, and boom, clutch burnt up and exploded. The longest I had one last was about a month. Once I put in the Spec it has been worry free.
No it wont. Ive seen them die with regular nice driving. Thats bad advice telling anyone a stocker will last. They wont even last with a mild 3.4 pushrod much less the TDC. The specs dont cost much anyway. You can get them for under 300. Do it right the 1st time. Cutting corners never works out.
Ok well I hadn't heard these horror stories before. So ok I'll take you and Dave's advice then. Sigh $300 more. Thanks for sharing though, I stand corrected Dave, appologies.
[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 12-12-2006).]
Ok, guys with SPEC clutches. I'm thinking that going with a stage II clutch may be the best choice considering the wear characteristics and drivability, but also having that extra umph when needed. The SPEC III looks a bit more...well.... rough, for a non street car almost. So guys with some experience chip in if you would. I'll do some research.
yeah, I running a stage two, and it held up just fine with 12psi beating on it. If I were to go higher then I would get a stage 2+, and not a three. The three is characterized as more of an on off switch type of a clutch...really grabby.
yeah, I running a stage two, and it held up just fine with 12psi beating on it. If I were to go higher then I would get a stage 2+, and not a three. The three is characterized as more of an on off switch type of a clutch...really grabby.
What I wanted to know. Thank you! And thank you SCCA Fiero.
Ive got a Stage 2+ (or 2.5) its a little grippy, but not a problem. Stay away from Centerforce, mine lasted a whoping 3000 miles, including the break in period and 200+ miles in one trip on the highway. I never did get around to running it hard before the rivets started grinding. I took it out to find the pressure plate side in perfect new condition, and the rivets grinding on the flywheel (which was new). CF didnt even want to listen to what I had to say so I bought a spec.
I had a stage 3 clutch made for $225.00 and I got to watch him make it. The nice thing is I learned alot about clutches.
CLAMPING FORCE is always overlooked.
Let me back track for just a moment.
I love the fiero and I am proud to have one. I also have corvette. I have been involved in a Corvette club for 6 years now and got alot of tech knowledge from that area. One of the most popular thing in the club is autocrossing. So clutches are often talked about. We have a club member that builds clutches for a living. And one day I spoke to him about a clutch for my Fiero. He told me that almost ALL CLUTCH MANUFACTURERS come down to two primary companys and most of the time the fancy clutch set up is only a painted and reboxed clutch. With some diffeences. This guy is the number one clutch builder at our local drag strip and dirt track. So I trust him based on membership and reputation.
So this is what he did for me.....First he started with a six puc friction plate with 4 kevlar pads and 2 Unknown pads on each side. He said this combination actually made the clutch more streetable and provided excellent grip. Then he matched the center hub to the 14 spline shaft hub and rivited the two together. Then we got a Chevy S-10 pressure plate. This increased the clamping force from 1050lbs. (stock) to 1450lbs. So I got an extra 400lbs clamping force. Since the six puc clutch has less surface area, it applies more pressure to the each puc. Thus less slipage. Then he took the combination to a table and measured the rotational friction. Turns out the the clutch could handle a little over 500hp.
SO HOW DID IT WORK?
GREAT.....I drove the car and suprizingly it worked great. The peddle is slightly stiffer than stock but not more than other stock clutches i have felt over the years. And traction was great. I had to redo my motor mount though. But it lets off just like a street clutch without chattering or slipping once engaged. Most manufacturers don't offer this combination so it's either "full grip or too much slip". Even with all kevlar or Ceramic pads, the price is really to high. I did compair other brands before I installed my clutch and can say that they are exactly the same, except for paint and box name.
So there you have my opinion on this subject and I hope it helps. If you would like to know who and where to find him just PM me.
Your saying he took a Spec Friction disc (or not) and rivited it to a hub and then used an S-10 pressure plate... Right?
The only difference is that he didn't have Spec build it he did it himself and used a non performance pressure plate; saving you about $75.
The thing is, that extra $75 provides a warantee on the SPEC clutch. I'd also HATE for the friction pads to seperate from the hub because of a rivit failing. That would be DISASTEROUS lol.
Thank you for sharing that, I admire your never ending quest to to it yourself and do it better. I look forward to seeing what the other guys have to say.
Well SPEC isn't one of the two primary companys that makes clutches. LUC is one of them though. And all clutches are rivited together. Even CF, SPEC, LUC, etc. What I mean is the center hub (with the springs) and the puc disk are rivited. These rivits aren't like pop rivits, they are the standard rivits you see on all clutches. So he builds them the same way you get them in the box. Except he uses a combination that allows streetability with maximum griping force. Hence the higher pressure plate. I have done alot of research on this subject. Considering other club members run his clutches in 900+ hp cars in full race applications and never had any problems, I can feel confidant that my 300hp fiero wont go beyond their limits. Oh 300hp is an estamate on the dyno program. It might be less. But sure feels like it. Especially when I can stick with a 385hp corvette that weighs 3300lbs. I wanted to post the dyno sheet on the forum but I haven't had any luck with it. Beside I think he even gives a warranty with his clutches. I just hate to see people spend more than they have too just for a painted part and a fancy box.
I went with a stage 2 on mine and it holds good. Also easy to drive and i dont drive it easy at all. The stage 3 was 10 bux more and i was real tempted to go with it just to be safe but i went with the 2 because, like you, i wanted something that i could drive everyday since it is my daily driver. Have 2 other friends who went with stage 3's and found out that they arent hard to drive at all. If you're going to build it up pretty good, id go ahead and go with the stage 3 just to be safe if i was you. They're grippier but not so bad that you cant drive them easy on the street. I think mine would have been wiser to go with the 3 since i have the cams and am looking into a set of headers as well but, so far, the 2 is holding fine. For reference, i got my speck for $260 shipped.
The thing is, that extra $75 provides a warantee on the SPEC clutch. I'd also HATE for the friction pads to seperate from the hub because of a rivit failing. That would be DISASTEROUS lol.
Good luck actualy getting any clutch manufacturer to honor any warranty. They all just blame it on installation or abuse or lack of break in period. A warranty on a clutch is pretty much a joke. Even if it did disastrously fail, they would just say you overheated it or ran it too hard.
That is so true. They are a major pain to prove that the failure was due to manufacturers defects. The three I blown where simple because the people that work at Schucks are retarded, and they were ok with a brand new looking clutch with one side friction material blown off. The last time they were like, hold on buddy, that's waaay too many clutches, but then they gave me one anyhow.
If Procarnut was around when I was looking for a clutch, I would have jumped all over his setup. Oh, and dont forget to make sure you get the right parts from spec if that's what you end up going with.
Just wanted to share what I found out. I've been happy with the one I got from him. Just talking to him I learned alot.
This is one reason I like this forum, everyone is willing to help each other out.
I did speak to him (Richard Finley) a while ago and he said he may create a whole line of clutches set up this way and go national with them. Everyone locally have been raving about them. He was telling me about one of his customers who races in truck pulls and this customer had a custom clutch set up the same technique as mine..but larger. it held so much torqe that when the customer slammed the throttle, the clutch grabbed and broke the spline shaft in two. That' was a 1 3/4 spline and it broke right after the clutch.
I noticed some wear on the intermediate shaft bearing. Apparently oil migrates from this bearing and there is some obviously significant bearing wear, probably from cold starts. However, there was absolutly NO wear on the intermediate shaft, thankfully.
You got lucky catching that before it turned into this...
Also, regarding gear ratios.. I ran an Isuzu for awhile and the 1st-2nd shift sucked, so I switched to a Getrag. I used the 3.5/2.19 gearset from a 1990 Olds Calais. Its absolutely beautiful from 1st to 2nd. 2nd to 3rd is a little wide but its not too bad. If there were a slightly shorter 3rd and 4th available it would be -perfect-.
I made some progress today....replaced all the ugly plastic PCV hoses with 3/8" stainless steel tubing. I routed them between the fuel rail and the front head instead of around the back of the engine. The plastic cover had to be trimmed a little in order to clear the new lines but it looks a lot better than those plastic snakes GM had on there. One more small step toward getting it on the road!
I have a 2.5 Fiero themostat housing that will be modified and attached to the outlet tube that you see in the picture. I don't know if it will be high enough to bleed the whole system but I plan on filling it from there using the same method as a stock V-6.
Emc209i, sucks to be at someone elses mercy. Don't give up!
Don
By the way, does anyone know a good sorce for factory looking cable clamps. I need to replace these corroded metal and baked plastic ones. These are to mount the wiring harness to the firewall and some other stuff in the engine compartment. Even generic plastic ones would be good as long as they will hold up to the heat.
[This message has been edited by SKIDMARK (edited 12-15-2006).]
So as most of you I made some progress today as well. Will be sure to post some pics soon. Im just in the midst of tearing down the TDC and going to freshen it up a bit. So I pulled the heads off today only to find a pile of rust on top of one of the pistons and some surface rust on 1 cylinder wall. Just to be safe I think im going to take it to a machine shop and get them to bore it over .010 or more if need be. Anyone have any links to engine rebuild kits? ( Rings,bearings,gaskets?)
Well what i need is Kohburn's Timing tool, cuz i need my timing done, im ordered the timing set today, $144, yikes. I want to try a 8 degree exhaust retard, in order to keep almost all the low end torque and gain some top end power. If any is willing to lend one, or maybe a repruduction tun, or the cad files so i can get a set made by my uncle.
Here are the pics of my motor the day it came to my house. I don't think Pennock's has seen them
The desired 96-97 intake, its huge.
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 12-18-2006).]
That IS a 96-97 engine, Look at where the coil pack is, dead giveaway.
I've been working hard on this project latley myself... Two solutions to one problem I added a second O-ring to the top edge of the oil pump drive assembly, and replaced the old O-ring with one of those high temperature brown ones. The new O-ring on the top squeezes into the taper at the top of the hole that the assembly fits into. Either of these seals should outlast the engine, so why not have two?
Earlier this morning before I started working on the exhaust:
The engine itself looks like this right now...
Current status of the project:
Exhaust is getting pretty close to done. Just have to do the exiting pipes, tips, then add all the supports, O2 bung's and the EGR port.
I have my Crate 96' engine on the cradle for all my mockups and exhaust work. The actual engine I am using is on the engine stand in the background.
The reason I've been so busy lately is because I'm having trouble getting someone to cooperate enough so that I can get the motor home, and take pics like that....
All will pull through that. So is it a 96-97 motor or are you doing the UIM LIM swap?
Yes, it is a 96 motor, from a lumina LS with 80,000 miles, I will be running OBD1.5.
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 12-18-2006).]
For rebuild kits, autozone has complete gasket kits for ~$105, including rings and rods. You would think at that price it would have to be cheap crap, but bear in mind the actual costs involved here, none of this stuff costs anything to produce. They might not be the best rings in the world, but even if you dont use them, its still a good deal. I used the kit and it all held up good for me.
Originally posted by Emc209i: If I take my entire 2.8l exhaust to an exhaust shop and tell them to build another setup in a clone of the original with 2.5" pipe do you think they can do it? Think they have 2.5" pipe on hand that they would want to bend? I think thats the route I'm going as it will be quickest as of right now. I can worry about headers later. I'll just use stock manifolds like FieroWannaBe is!
They could get it close but not perfect. Some exhaust shops have bending cards and generic straight tubing and they can bend a pipe just from the card without your exhaust as a sample. I used to manage a muffler shop that specialized in custom exhaust systems. Unless the standard for exhaust has changed over the last 25 years, you won't get nice mandrel bent pipes and they will probably charge you quite a bit for a custom system. One other problem is that a lot of them use a soft carbon steel that will rust pretty quick. There are also places (like this place http://www.lr-racing.com/exhaust.htm ) that will custom build a system on the car out of mandrel bent stainless but I'm sure you're talking some real big $.
That's why I bought a welder and stainless tubing and made my own (see page 3 of this thread) as most people do. Depends on your budget and skill level though.
Don
Edit = I forgot some stuff.....happens when you get old.
[This message has been edited by SKIDMARK (edited 12-19-2006).]
Summit and/or Jegs has mandrel bent pipes for sale pretty resonably. That's where i got mine and my muffler. Edit to ad; they even have stainless mandrel bends.
[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 12-19-2006).]
Hey I'm back...Wife and I just had the baby.....Girl 7lbs. 19 1/4 inches and doing great!!
Exhaust....I purchased mandrel bent pipes on ebay. It was actually 2 - 3" ubends. Ofcoarse you've seen the build thread listed on the first page of this thread. But here is a list...
Ubends = ebay Flowmaster muffler = ebay Catalitic Converter = exhaust shop Flex piping = part store 3" pipe = exhaust shop Flange plates (headers) = ebay 1.5" mandel bent tubes = headers from chevy truck collectors = exhaust shop. cones to weld to flanges = exhaust shop
I did all the cutting and welding myself so this might not be the easiest way to do it. But for me it turned out to be the cheapest for what I wanted.
So I LOVE EBAY.... I've found alot of great deals there.
That's not a bad price on a stage 3 clutch. The differnce between his and spec is the types of buttons used and combinations. Spec may use all kevlar or cender buttons, which makes that clutch a "on or off" clutch. That means no smooth let off with the clutch. The way Richard builds his is a combination with other material which allows smoother let off without sacrificing grip once the pressure plate clamps down. A performance company is already talking to him about making his technuiqe into a marketing national brand. I have to say I was worried myself about the clutch working the way I want it to, but too many people told me to see him and I'm glad i did. See noone else builds clutches in the combinations that he does and that is why I went with his clutch. I know I probably sound like a sales man but I really like this clutch. As far as setting one up for the peddle feel you like you would just have to talk to him about what he can do. The man knows his stuff. I learned alot from him on this subject and I teach Automotive Technology for a living. I'm not saying I know everything but in the interest in constant learning he is a big help.
I added a second O-ring to the top edge of the oil pump drive assembly, and replaced the old O-ring with one of those high temperature brown ones. The new O-ring on the top squeezes into the taper at the top of the hole that the assembly fits into. Either of these seals should outlast the engine, so why not have two?
