So I need some Sailpanels for all 4 of my GTs.
You would think some OEM replicas would be a no brainer and easy to get. Wrong. There are some out there but they just don't meet OEM specs.
Solution for many people on here is to get out there and make your own. Well that's what I thought anyway. Turns out it is a very very involved process.

First thing I did was grabbed a couple OEM panels that hadn't any damage at all. One new never used in the box even and one that hadn't been installed but wasn't perfect due to sitting around for 20 years.

I got an ex Lockheed Martin fellow(Richard White, Advanced Concepts) to help me out. He is a semi retired chap that knows more stuff than I thought there was to know.

After going over the panels and going over the replicas others were offering we decided to invest a little time and money into some computer generated panels.
After scanning this is what we got

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 07-23-2008).]

now u just gota get him to put that into one of their fancy machines and make some :P

quote Originally posted by hookdonspeed: now u just gota get him to put that into one of their fancy machines and make some :P

Oh Yay. We have already I just have not posted the pics yet. Tonight when I get home I will.

I totally dig this sorta thing!

Waiting patiently for those pics.....

You're gonna sell these, right?

quote Originally posted by Hulki U. My-BFF: Waiting patiently for those pics..... You're gonna sell these, right?

Just home for lunch but here is a couple pics of the mold being made.

This is kinda like the forums own version of "How It's Made". Totally cool. I have been watching Pokeys progress in the exact GT replacment panel thread in the Mall.

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Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

All I see are red X's
Anyone else having problems seeing pics on the threads?

yep, I'm getting the broken image icon.

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: All I see are red X's Anyone else having problems seeing pics on the threads?

I get blue ?'s...

I can see them all so far, good stuff Can't wait to see the finished product

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1984 Fiero SE

This is the mold after a rough pass with the CNC.
Lots of hand finishing is still to be done before it gets to make it's first few test pulls on the hot sucky machine.










These molds cost more each than most Fiero's themselves cost. I still to this day just keep chanting to myself "I love my Fiero's and I need windows"

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 07-23-2008).]

Just curious...
You scanned the outside surface of the panel. Did you offset the model surface to account for the thickness of the panel so the die that has been machined represents the inside panel surface?

I use a CAD program all day everyday (solidworks) so this thread is pretty cool to watch.

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87 coupe resoration project.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: These molds cost more each than most Fiero's themselves cost. I still to this day just keep chanting to myself "I love my Fiero's and I need windows"

If you start making and selling them, you'll make your money back on the molds.

quote Originally posted by nmw75: Just curious... You scanned the outside surface of the panel. Did you offset the model surface to account for the thickness of the panel so the die that has been machined represents the inside panel surface? I use a CAD program all day everyday (solidworks) so this thread is pretty cool to watch.

The scans represent the surface of the mold minus the thickness of the material. In other words it is measured slightly smaller so the acyclic sheet can wrap around the mold giving the correct exterior dimensions according to the thickness of the material used. The material used is 3 thousandths thicker than stock and that can only be seen with a micrometer. I didn't feel like having special acrylic sheets made at god knows what additional cost for 3 thousandths. I don't recall but i believe the relative difference was 85/88 thousandths or something to that effect.

We also used solid works for some of the production,mostly for visual interpretation.

Awesome, good job on that mold you should be able to pull a lot of sails on the hot sucky machine with that. Now since you went through the trouble of getting scan data of an OEM panel, maybe you could use your machining expertise and make a compression mold and press out some carbon fiber sails. People would go nuts for those. Good work! I likes it.

[This message has been edited by Curlrup (edited 07-24-2008).]

How about Notchie panels? Also, how much $?

thanks!

quote Originally posted by 2.5: How about Notchie panels? Also, how much $? thanks!

http://www.fierosails.com/

If you have a list going of customers, please add me to your list. Thank you!

quote Originally posted by bmanke: If you have a list going of customers, please add me to your list. Thank you!

Hey! Welcome to the forum.
Yeah we got a list in a thread going in the mall. They will be first of course But this thread is just a how they are made sorta thing.
Befroe I think about selling I'm gonna concentrate on making them. One thing at a time.
I have ton more pictures just to bring things up to date but I will have to get to them monday or tuesday.
Just busy this week.

We have already tried a few out and here are the results. The curves all came out fine but there is a bit of work to do still.
We have some heat bubbles in the workpiece so that needs to be addressed.

.


The biggest of changes is here. At the trailing end of the sail it goes flat on the OEMs so we are taking a bit off to represent that.



Also many little hard to see problems that need tweaking.




The whole mold is getting smoothed out a bit more and I expect the second mold will need similar care.

I have played with one and trimmed it a bit just to stick it on my car to see. It looked very nice and the light played on it well. Very fluid and dynamic.
Couple weeks we should have some more pictures and maybe even a shot or two of the printing pad in use.

Have you considered getting them made in China once the moulds are made Pokey? I only ask because I know from a friend of mine who gets aout 140 repro Pontiac parts over there does so for the huge cost difference. Using your moulds and purchasing 1000 sets would probably see them run in at about $40 a set finished, or less.

Also consider getting the correct GM restorations licensing as they can be brutal on you if you don't have their approval. Just something to watch out for when making repros. Their fees are not cheap but if you get the right approvals it can make a big difference to sales being a GM approved part.

Private message me if you want more info on the approval process. My friend is licensed on about 150 GM parts now so he knows all the ins and outs of the process.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Have you considered getting them made in China once the moulds are made Pokey? I only ask because I know from a friend of mine who gets aout 140 repro Pontiac parts over there does so for the huge cost difference. Using your moulds and purchasing 1000 sets would probably see them run in at about $40 a set finished, or less. Also consider getting the correct GM restorations licensing as they can be brutal on you if you don't have their approval. Just something to watch out for when making repros. Their fees are not cheap but if you get the right approvals it can make a big difference to sales being a GM approved part. Private message me if you want more info on the approval process. My friend is licensed on about 150 GM parts now so he knows all the ins and outs of the process.

Hey Jim!
I will give a phone call when I get a minute if you still have the same number.

Thanks for the advice.

fascinating thread Pokey... all 25th show I kept suspecting that you'd come walking up with Bob, or Geyer... holding the first set of repro sails. I thought that would've been pretty cool, and make a big splash.

Any idea what became of the original molds?

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Hey Jim! I will give a phone call when I get a minute if you still have the same number. Thanks for the advice.

I PMed you my home number Pokey. I can be reached on that most any time up until 1am.

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: fascinating thread Pokey... all 25th show I kept suspecting that you'd come walking up with Bob, or Geyer... holding the first set of repro sails. I thought that would've been pretty cool, and make a big splash. Any idea what became of the original molds?

I wish I could have gone but I literally spent my money On these panels and could not justify going on credit. Besides they are not ready anyway.

Pokey you are the man !

Big + for you.

[This message has been edited by exoticse (edited 08-01-2008).]

Pokey, Looks like good progress is being made. However, I would please ask that you keep manufacturing here in the US. I personally would have a big problem with purchasing them if they were made in China. Keep in mind the Chinese are not exactly known for their high quality manufacturing techniques and replicating the sail windows is no small task as you well know! Also, high energy costs have eaten up some of that Made in China price advantage.

My vote maintain the quality & control : MADE IN USA!

Thank you.

Biggest problem I' ve seen with most reproduction is panels is they never get the curve right. Especially at the front edge. And their usually not thick enough either. Some are so bad I wouldn't even put them on the car. Yours look pretty good so far and I think you'd have a winner if you could keep the price down to $ 200 or less. BTW anybody know of a good way to re install the panels on the car ? I tried the heavy duty industrial strength double sided tape and it's not working.

Just for a cost perspective - what did the sail panels go for at the dealership when Fieros were still being sold new? - only to ward off rediculous assumptions on what these should sell for

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Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

quote Originally posted by GT-maniac: Biggest problem I' ve seen with most reproduction is panels is they never get the curve right. Especially at the front edge. And their usually not thick enough either. Some are so bad I wouldn't even put them on the car. Yours look pretty good so far and I think you'd have a winner if you could keep the price down to $ 200 or less. BTW anybody know of a good way to re install the panels on the car ? I tried the heavy duty industrial strength double sided tape and it's not working.

Well we already have the curves dead on. The real problem is what is dead on? There is a variance between OEM panels and not a little one. There are flaws in the OEMS that we actually reproduced into the re-mans. Our big debate right now is if we should fix the flaws or/and find a middle ground between the different stock OEM panel and there are quite a few.

Last night we did a rough cut on the cnc machine of the second drivers side panel mold. We stopped it from proceeding until we get the first passenger side panel mold where we really want it and want it to stay. Then we can have these changes made in the second mold leaving us less hand work.

Right now there is nothing over 5 thousandths of an inch that we are questioning. We are really striving for perfection but it seems impossible to know what that is. They are better than any I have seen. They are 3 thousandths thicker than originals with the same curvatures.
They will all come out pretty much the same as I have only two molds. A left and a right. GMs Manufacture likely had several injection casts made as is evident in the many differences we have found in the OEMS. The molds I have now are basically lifetime molds. Very expensive and very un forgiving of mistakes but they will crank out the same panel today as they do 25 years from now. I could have gone with different materials such as liquid stone. That would have made a whole lot of troubles go away but it would wear out and cause panels to be out of tolerance. Also stone would not heat up as well for the moulders.

Now this project is at 10 grand now maybe more. We still have a ways to go. China is an option but not an option for the sets I am going to make. There are about 40 people that have expressed a desire to buy the first ones and they will definitely get theres first and made in America.
The price will reflect the costs plus recovery of investment of course. I'm a capitalist to be sure but really I got into this because I needed several sets as do many of my circle of friends here at home and on PFF. No one was stepping up to make them or at least succeed at making them so what choice is there? There is no way in hell a set will go for as little as 200 bucks. Maybe in the beginning I had such dreams but they are shattered dreams after the education I have received in the manufacturing process. I can't even guess as to what the price needs to be and frankly I have not given much thought because whenever I think about it I realize I have no idea what all the variables are yet. I thought I did but I don't. I know I'm getting me 4 sets for sure and the first hundred are surely sold. For all I know these panels will cost 300 bucks each and if they do and they are perfect panels I think they would be well worth it. Keeping the price down to affordable is a goal. Hell I have bought plenty of Fiero's for less than what these will cost.


The trimming is proving to be a handful. We are tranferring the tool path program over to the molders so they can work on this problem. Hopefully the computers can work it out and hand trimming won't be needed.

one thing I am not going to do is supply the tape. I hate that **** . I don't want to be responsible for anyones panels flying off into the void of money lost. Personally I'm going to use urethane glue. I have even considered making a mount system to hard connect it to the car. One thing at a time though. I have a ton of ideas and it drives me krazy not to start them but mania must be controlled in order to accomplish goals.

Beyond that the molds may transfer hands as well as the practices to print them to a southern California vendor. I don't really want to be a vendor and never did. I like to make/fix/build/learn things and move on to some other project and prefer I just get checks in the mail once a month to support my habits of immaturity.

Anyway this isn't a sales thread or a pre order thread. Just a how they are made and how much of a pain in the ass they can be thread. This is more than a how it is made sort of thing since it isn't finished. You actually get to see the things I'm learning about how it is made. Were gonna see the first failures right here and what was done to fix them. Gonna be a lot more pictures!

Nice work ! Pretty challenging to go into such a project...looks like your cad/cam approach defeats the original tooling !
good luck

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Now this project is at 10 grand now maybe more. We still have a ways to go. China is an option but not an option for the sets I am going to make. There are about 40 people that have expressed a desire to buy the first ones and they will definitely get theres first and made in America. The price will reflect the costs plus recovery of investment of course. I'm a capitalist to be sure but really I got into this because I needed several sets as do many of my circle of friends here at home and on PFF. No one was stepping up to make them or at least succeed at making them so what choice is there? There is no way in hell a set will go for as little as 200 bucks. Maybe in the beginning I had such dreams but they are shattered dreams after the education I have received in the manufacturing process. I can't even guess as to what the price needs to be and frankly I have not given much thought because whenever I think about it I realize I have no idea what all the variables are yet. I thought I did but I don't. I know I'm getting me 4 sets for sure and the first hundred are surely sold. For all I know these panels will cost 300 bucks each and if they do and they are perfect panels I think they would be well worth it. Keeping the price down to affordable is a goal. Hell I have bought plenty of Fiero's for less than what these will cost.

Hey don't take offence I didn't mean to piss you off or anything. I had no idea how much this is costing you and I think it's great that someone is finally taking the time to make these things right.
It's just that I've seen many threads where someone comes up with a great idea and then unfortunately enough people aren't willing to pay enough for it and the idea dies. It's too bad really and I hope this doesn't happen to you. I had a bit of sticker shock when I bought my GT lenses from the fiero store, but I needed them and I was just grateful that someone had actually taken the time to have them made again. Luckily my sail panels are still intact if a bit cloudy but I may need a replacement set someday. Especially if I can't figure out a way to keep the things on..

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85 WS6 GT partly modified
87 GT Loaded resto project

Member Edmonton Fiero Owners Group

$300 a piece is fair Pokey. For correct parts. I know where I can get a set of new OEM ones and they will set me back $900 for the pair. God they look pretty though sitting in their nice new boxes

good job old man.
i'm a notchie fan but the GT crowd will be in your debt.

quote Originally posted by GT-maniac: Hey don't take offence I didn't mean to piss you off or anything. I had no idea how much this is costing you and I think it's great that someone is finally taking the time to make these things right. It's just that I've seen many threads where someone comes up with a great idea and then unfortunately enough people aren't willing to pay enough for it and the idea dies. It's too bad really and I hope this doesn't happen to you. I had a bit of sticker shock when I bought my GT lenses from the fiero store, but I needed them and I was just grateful that someone had actually taken the time to have them made again. Luckily my sail panels are still intact if a bit cloudy but I may need a replacement set someday. Especially if I can't figure out a way to keep the things on..

No way man. I'm not pissed at all. I was just being informative. I think people have a right to ask any questions they like. This is an open project with any input or questioning welcome.

Oh my GOD we're getting somewhere!!!!!
I love making **** so much. I wish I would have started out my life making stuff like this right out of the gate. I have been a contractor my whole life so I do make stuff but this is wholly different. The machinery and collaborations with different people for various expertise to put something on the market is just to much fun. Stressful but very fun.

I guess I have been doing this my whole life but this is all new so I'm like a kid again learning from the ground up.

Wow. I'm so "Fiero proud" of all the accomplishments I've read about like this one since I last visited 5 years ago. I have owned several types of cars and I keep coming back to the Fiero community. Why? Because Fiero fans are simply damn good self inventors, engineers, and extremely helpful. I have an Acura TL and all you get from those forums are immature remarks like "do a search newbie", "i dunno...take it to the dealer", or "RTFM newbie". However, they definitely know the distinct differences from a 6 or 9 LED lamp or debadging techniques but that's about it.

Back on topic, I bet it won't be long before a Fiero can be manufactured strictly from aftermarket parts! EARLY congrats on this endeavor and good luck! I feel compelled to donate for your research just to give some support.