Welcome aboard Richard... I used to live in Ottawa up until 10 years ago... too bad time warps don't exist as I'm sure we could mutually benefit from meeting each other. Anyways, I'm quite surprised that this thread hasn't been moved to the archives so it's nice to see some action in it to keep it alive.
As Sage points out, I'll need to know what window seals you're referring to. If they're the large rubber surrounds that the top and sides of the window close up against, then those should be stock Fiero parts with no modification. On the other hand if you're talking about the dew wipes along the bottom edge of the window, then indeed those are simply Fiero dew wipes that have been snipped in the hidden part to allow them to take the curvature of the top of the door. I'm certain that I have measurements regarding where to make the slices. Let me know if that's what you need.
Sage also correctly pointed out that most of these were turn-key kits so there was no assembly manual for the home-builder until I wrote one. The manual was never completely finished for several reasons but I do still have a copy. Your kit may or may not have been assembled exactly the same way though. If you post your questions in this thread then I'll do my best to respond, but I too want to see photos of your car!
I'd love to find a Stinger. The absolute best 308 kit ever made that I know of. I wish someone now would make a kit with the buttresses right. Other than the windshield, which would take major work to fix... the buttresses and the fuel fill are the biggest things that stand out on a kit.
------------------ 12th Annual California Coast Run October 17-19, 2014 http://www.californiacoastrun.com 1988 Fiero GT - Nashville, TN 37203
....and the door handles..and decklid...and the B pillar angle...and the absence of wing windows...and the overall width of the car.
This could go on and on and on and on...
I'd love to find a Stinger too, but they are like hens' teeth, and when one does turn up, it's likely to be close to the same price you could pick up a decent 308 for....difference would be the maintenance costs.
Yeah, all those things. But most people won't notice width of the car or hood. I just meant the most obvious.
Yes, you can buy a decent Ferrari for the price of a good. But I've always said I'd rather have a well done kit car than the real thing. Cheaper maintenance, cheaper insurance, better reliability, and if done right, comparable power and handling. And the two best cars I have seen... and neither are still being made... are the Stinger 308 and the A/D 355.
------------------ 12th Annual California Coast Run October 17-19, 2014 http://www.californiacoastrun.com 1988 Fiero GT - Nashville, TN 37203
I just purchase the car from Montreal. It was already assembled but back in 1995 and the person I got it from was the 3rd owner. So needless to say its in need of some restoration. Granted its still turns heads as is but I want to do the car justice. My plan is to repaint, redo the inside, fix the gages and windows (they close very slowly) I would also like to redo the trunk as they did not utilize all the area. Then maybe look at making a targa like the one posted in this tread. And finally I will look at the engine as it currently has the original 1985 GT V6 and 4 speed. If I go this far I will likely then entertain the suspension... Lots of things to do but first I need to fix the doors. The windows raddle and the passenger door sticks and both trim at the top of the door (I believe its the dew wipes) is all dry and cracked.
Bloozberry, yes I would please need that measurement and if possible, any other details on the door if its not standard Fiero.
Saga, I tried to post a couple of pictures at the top but not certain if this will work. what I did was utilize the image function...
No. You need to use something like the "Pennocks Image Poster" at the bottom of the screen. Click on the link. Install it on your computer. Run it and follow the instructions. You can also use sites like Photobucket.
Originally posted by RichardA: Bloozberry, yes I would please need that measurement and if possible, any other details on the door if its not standard Fiero.
Thanks for posting the pictures. Yours belongs in the Stinger "Registry" without a doubt. Would be nice to know the whereabouts of those that are still around. Not sure to what end, but it'd just be nice to know how many there are left. Weren't THAT many to begin with!
Maybe if you get a chance, you can give a little info on what all you've had to do to get it to that condition.
Unfortunately, Bloozberry doesn't post here anymore, but I can get you a link to his web page if you don't already have it.
Thanks again for taking the time and trouble to post your pics, well worth the wait!
Just beautiful. Probably the only replica based on a Fiero that looks anything like the real thing. I'm guessing this is just bolt on panels without modifying the space frame or windshield or chopping? Interesting how the whole car looks more streamlined and less chubby than the stock Fiero.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 11-21-2017).]
Just beautiful. Probably the only replica based on a Fiero that looks anything like the real thing.
The only replica based on a Fiero that looks ANYTHING like the real thing? I think that is pretty harsh! I agree wholeheartedly that the Stinger Kit is one of the most accurate replicas ever produced. However, many Fiero based kits certainly resemble the cars they are meant to emulate. It is true that many of them may not be as accurate as a Stinger, but that is what many consider the "gold standard" of replicars. As an owner of a Fiero based replica, I think my car certainly looks SOMETHING like the original. I realize some may not appreciate it. I do, and that is what matters. I love Fieros (which is why I enjoy this forum) and I love my version of the Fiero. To each his/her own.
The only replica based on a Fiero that looks ANYTHING like the real thing? I think that is pretty harsh! I agree wholeheartedly that the Stinger Kit is one of the most accurate replicas ever produced. However, many Fiero based kits certainly resemble the cars they are meant to emulate. It is true that many of them may not be as accurate as a Stinger, but that is what many consider the "gold standard" of replicars. As an owner of a Fiero based replica, I think my car certainly looks SOMETHING like the original. I realize some may not appreciate it. I do, and that is what matters. I love Fieros (which is why I enjoy this forum) and I love my version of the Fiero. To each his/her own.
-Van
By based on the Fiero I mean replicas which use the stock frame. Not those replicas where they stretch, chop and basically reframe the whole thing. That is really no longer a Fiero anymore. If it's totally reshaped it should look more like the real thing. Like the Lamborghini Miura they did. That looks quite nice. But you can barely call projects liked that "based on a Fiero" when most of the chassis has been changed, engine, gearbox is different etc. It now uses Fiero parts rather than being based on a Fiero.
Now for unchanged Fiero frames most replicas look ridiculous. Because most cars being replicated have a much longer wheelbase and much steeper windshield. So they look bizarre and funny. Like stubby little copies. The 308 works because it has a similar wheelbase as the stock Fiero. Actually it is even shorter than the Fiero. But 355 replicas for example already look funny and fool no one. F40 replicas look ridiculous and Lambo ones even more so, if they are all based on the stock frame. I think if the replica will fool nobody and even non car fans can tell they are fake because they look funny, there is not much point. A stock Fiero looks much better than a bizarre ugly replica IMO. But yes, to each his own.
P.S. I have no idea which type of replica you have so this is not directed at you or anybody in particular. Just my personal opinion. I don't mean to offend anybody. But I would rather drive a stock Fiero than a funny looking car.
I have never seen a Fiero based replica using the stock frame which looked better than the Stinger. Now if the Stinger doesn't use the completely stock frame I don't know. Hence why I asked.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 11-22-2017).]
Interesting that this thread should get revived at this particular time.
Why....you may ask.....
Look what showed up at my house yesterday....
Yep, that's a Stinger.....nope, that's not my house!
This was the car I located and had shipped to me last week.
It showed up yesterday, in all it's ragged out glory.
Been through the mill, and obviously much to be done, but it IS a Stinger...it took a long time to find it, and there's a lot of work ahead to get it back on the road.
As any of you that have bought from me or Fierowarehouse in the past, knows....I don't work that fast. So not promising to keep the progress updated, just wanted to check into the "Registry" and let it be known, another one has been located and is hopefully in a new good home.
Stock 2.8/auto and the interior is much nicer than the exterior, at this point. Mr. Mikes wrapped seats, Pisa dash and console. Might be for sale (the seats and dash) as I'm not sure I want to use them, should I actually get that far along in the refurb.
Interesting that this thread should get revived at this particular time.
Why....you may ask.....
Look what showed up at my house yesterday....
Yep, that's a Stinger.....nope, that's not my house!
This was the car I located and had shipped to me last week.
It showed up yesterday, in all it's ragged out glory.
Been through the mill, and obviously much to be done, but it IS a Stinger...it took a long time to find it, and there's a lot of work ahead to get it back on the road.
As any of you that have bought from me or Fierowarehouse in the past, knows....I don't work that fast. So not promising to keep the progress updated, just wanted to check into the "Registry" and let it be known, another one has been located and is hopefully in a new good home.
Stock 2.8/auto and the interior is much nicer than the exterior, at this point. Mr. Mikes wrapped seats, Pisa dash and console. Might be for sale (the seats and dash) as I'm not sure I want to use them, should I actually get that far along in the refurb.
Hopefully, more to come...
HAGO!
Good catch! I wonder, how much did you pay for it, if I may ask? Here in Europe I know somebody who sold a real one for 30 grand. Not the usual going price but they are plenty and you can find deals. So I wonder how much a Stinger goes for over there?
Interesting that this thread should get revived at this particular time.
Why....you may ask.....
Look what showed up at my house yesterday....
Yep, that's a Stinger.....nope, that's not my house!
This was the car I located and had shipped to me last week.
It showed up yesterday, in all it's ragged out glory.
Been through the mill, and obviously much to be done, but it IS a Stinger...it took a long time to find it, and there's a lot of work ahead to get it back on the road.
As any of you that have bought from me or Fierowarehouse in the past, knows....I don't work that fast. So not promising to keep the progress updated, just wanted to check into the "Registry" and let it be known, another one has been located and is hopefully in a new good home.
Stock 2.8/auto and the interior is much nicer than the exterior, at this point. Mr. Mikes wrapped seats, Pisa dash and console. Might be for sale (the seats and dash) as I'm not sure I want to use them, should I actually get that far along in the refurb.
Hopefully, more to come...
HAGO!
Congrats, Ted. It's an awesome way to start. I don't suppose you'll be pulling molds from it??? :Hmm:
Where's the build thread???
Have you decided to get rid of the "Mera" based one you have?
(It's been a while since I've been on...I'm full of questions. )
Bob
[This message has been edited by RCR (edited 11-22-2017).]
Originally posted by Rn2016: P.S. I have no idea which type of replica you have so this is not directed at you or anybody in particular. Just my personal opinion. I don't mean to offend anybody. But I would rather drive a stock Fiero than a funny looking car.
First allow me to say I am in no way offended by your comments Rn2016. On the contrary, I welcome your opinion. We are all very lucky to have a forum dedicated to our passion for this great little car!
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By based on the Fiero I mean replicas which use the stock frame. Not those replicas where they stretch, chop and basically reframe the whole thing. That is really no longer a Fiero anymore. If it's totally reshaped it should look more like the real thing. Like the Lamborghini Miura they did. That looks quite nice. But you can barely call projects liked that "based on a Fiero" when most of the chassis has been changed, engine, gearbox is different etc. It now uses Fiero parts rather than being based on a Fiero.
I can appreciate what you are saying here. I do not necessarily agree with you, but I can understand your logic and where you are coming from.
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Now for unchanged Fiero frames most replicas look ridiculous. Because most cars being replicated have a much longer wheelbase and much steeper windshield. So they look bizarre and funny. Like stubby little copies.
I can understand why some people use terms like ridiculous, bizarre, funny and stubby little copies. I am sure many (if not most, as you say) do fall under those descriptions. I only felt the need to respond to your post because you had originally stated:
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Originally posted by Rn2016:
Just beautiful. Probably the only replica based on a Fiero that looks anything like the real thing.
As a builder of a stock wheelbase Fiero based replica, I OFTEN find people (including car people) just assume that my car is the "real deal". They immediately start asking me questions about its "exotic pedigree"(meaning questions as if it where real). i.e. "What year?" "How fast have you gone?" "That's a 12 cylinder right?" etc. While I completely appreciate the backhanded compliment, I jump at the chance to tell them it is a Pontiac Fiero. I say its a Fiero...just a Bad Ass Fiero lol. (Just kidding, I am a huge fan of the original designs) I am not trying to "fool" anyone. Many times I have gotten responses like "No Fn' Way!" or "Shut Up!" (Elaine style from Seinfeld) or "Are you sh*tin' me?" That last one was from a toll collector on The New Jersey Turnpike. Its as if they think I am just being modest or humble about the car. I don't mention this to boast. Like we said, many wouldn't appreciate my car at all. I just think it illustrates the point that there are some Fiero based replicas (as you define them) that do look SOMETHING like the real thing. I wouldn't even feel comfortable trying to pass it off as anything other than my take on the iconic original it took it's inspiration from.
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F40 replicas look ridiculous and Lambo ones even more so, if they are all based on the stock frame. I think if the replica will fool nobody and even non car fans can tell they are fake because they look funny, there is not much point. A stock Fiero looks much better than a bizarre ugly replica IMO.
My car falls into the "even more ridiculous" category Although significant frame modification was necessary to support the structural integrity of the space frame/chasis after removal of the original Fiero roof. I am not sure if this disqualifies my car based on your definition Rn2016. I do prefer the 93.4" wheelbase vs. a stretch for structural reasons. I also just really like the stance of my car. Just to reiterate, I am not trying to fool anyone. I have a car that has been modified to pay homage to an image from a poster on my wall as a kid. I actually think its sad when I come across people that swear their replicas are real. It makes me very uncomfortable actually. Having said that, I am comfortable sharing the fact that my car is a Fiero. Since I don't currently have a spare $400-600,000 laying around, my Fiero is just gonna have to do!
At the end of the day, we are all lovers of the Fiero. We all have different tastes and opinions. I am proud of my car and I continue to work hard to make it better every day. The journey is the best part and the reward is the work itself. Isn't that what makes this hobby so great?
Rn2016: Prefer not to advertise the price, at least not now. I will say, it's nowhere near $30,000! But I'd imagine if you found a finished, very nice one with an engine swap and custom interior, it could feasibly bring close to that. If you can buy a real 308 for $30 where you are....I'd buy it! But as I've said before, I'd still rather have the Italian styling with American drive train....it's cheaper to buy...I can work on it myself..and definitely cheaper to maintain. The Stinger satisfies those criteria. Actually, the Mera/Fejer body does also, but the Stinger is a little more "accurate" to the original it's supposed to replicate.
So now I have both and can make a true comparison....sooner or later....most likely later!
Bob: Don't know that there'll be a build thread...I'm not that great at documenting stuff...plus..not sure how much time I'll be able to devote to it. It took me almost 5 years just to replace the interior in the Vette! Still have to do body work and paint!
I don't have immediate plans to get rid of the Fejer kit...actually, part of the reason for snagging the Stinger was to have something to look at to help reconfigure the Fejer kit! The Stinger is on an 86' chassis and the Fejer kit on an 88' with T-tops. The Stinger has the stock 2.8 but I have a series II 3800/4T60 on an 88' cradle to go in the Fejer. I have an extra 88' cradle I could use for the 86'....but again....don't have all that much time to put in doing all this stuff. The Stinger is really rough all around. Nothing that can't be addressed, but it all takes time. So the short answer to your second question is "no".
Not sure if I'd call this one "sweet"....it's really rough through and through.
Looks like I'll probably have to redo most, if not all the wiring.
Not much in the way of "substructure" under the fiberglass, so not sure what I'm doing there yet.
You can tell from the pics, previous owner sanded probably till his fingers bled, but it will all have to be gone over again. It's all "glazed over", and primer/paint will not stick to what's there. Plus, not sure what filler he was using, but it really doesn't even appear anything automotive related.
Not sure I want to use the interior that's in it, but it's probably the best thing about the car as it sits now. Seats are very nice, and the dash looks good, very nice upholstering job on it and the console.
I kind of like the wheels, but also not sure they'll stay on there either.
Everything else is a re-do! Space frame appears to be fairly rust free, but I haven't looked it all over real close yet.
You certainly hit the nail on the head as far as updates go.....they'll definitely be "odd"...few and far between to boot!
Thanks for the luck wishes....I'm gonna need em'!
Still following your build on MM and wish I could help you on the 3.4 situation, but I really don't have any experience with that set up. All I do know is, it will be very sweet when you get it all figured out! Your car is looking spectacular! Don't YOU stop with the updates!
J&V: That car looks like a good one to snag for a quick and easy refurb, then enjoying a very nice looking ride.
Your car will look amazing when it gets all done Ted so, like me, keep plugging at it when you can. Thinking some molds might be something to look at as well as I am sure you would get sales of this replica as it is the best out there.....
Originally posted by VanGTP5000:I can appreciate what you are saying here. I do not necessarily agree with you, but I can understand your logic and where you are coming from.
So you would still call any car a Fiero regardless of how modified it is? It's hard for example to say a Plazma is still a Fiero. Or that the Patriot was a Fiero. Wouldn't you say?
I feel like there is two sides of a coin at work here. Not talking particularly about you here, but in general. At one side there are the people who like to dismiss the Fiero. Normally people who don't own one. Calling it little crappy car, death trap and all sorts of ignorant stuff. I remember watching a video on youtube with a full blown idiot driving around, when he spotted what looked to be a real Ferrari Mondial. He then tells his friend in the car with him that the Ferrari is a Fiero. His friend says something like, no way. He then pulls up next to the Mondial on a stop light and asks the driver what car it was. The driver replies Ferrari and the idiot says, a Fiero? The guy says again, Ferrari... The idiot, oh a Fiero, ok and laughs (I'm typing from memory but it went similar to that). You can see the Ferrari driver's face is a mix of frustration and pity for the guy. I'm pretty sure it was a real Mondial and let's face it, who would make a replica of a Mondial? Also, any self respecting Fiero replica owner would have said it's a replica I guess. So some use the Fiero thing to put others down by dismissing the Fiero.
Now on the other side of the coin, I see Fiero owners not dismissing the Fiero (how could they? They own one) but dismissing the work. Well, it's just a Fiero, just like mine. I recently read a thread here about a guy with a Mera bodykit wanting to register it as a real Mera. He got very dismissive when he was told he had a kitcar. He said something like, What's the difference? It is still a Fiero underneath just like your pile of s***! So there ar epeople who will dismiss the extensiveness of the mod just so not to admit it's something more special than his own car. This seem to happen often as I'm finding out reading about Fiero customization online.
But in reality, when does a car stop being a Fiero and becomes something else? I think it doesn't matter what Fiero bashers or jealous Fiero owners say. If the car has a different engine, different gearbox, different interior and different body and all it's using is the Fiero space frame for example, and it is not just a replica from another car, how can it not be a new car? Is a Firebird just a Camaro? Is a VX220 just an Elise or Exige? Is a Hennessey Venom GT just an Exige? So why call a car made using a Fiero space frame and some Fiero parts just a Fiero?
As long as the VIN says it's a FIERO it's a FIERO. If it is extremely modified the most important part of the car is the insurance policy coverage. If it's registered as a 87 FIERO and you have a standard insurance policy that is what you would be compensated for if it was damaged / destroyed. Companies like Hagerty, Grundy and others will insure your vehicle at an agreed value but some restrictions are placed on vehicle use. Also, some states including the one I'm in (Virginia) will allow the owner to add to the basic vehicle description. My car is registered as a FIERO/Ferrari and insured at a agreed value with no depreciation.
We are onto a different topic than the one I had responded to originally. I was just defending the fact that there are other Fiero based replicas that look SOMETHING like the cars they pay tribute to. By your logic, I think you would still consider my non-stretched car a Fiero based replica. I think it looks something like the original .
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Originally posted by Rn2016:
So you would still call any car a Fiero regardless of how modified it is?
No I am not saying I would call ANY car a Fiero. I disagreed above because often times these replicas are still using many of the original systems and parts of the Fiero besides just the space frame. For example my car still has the original steering column and system, suspension (although modified), electrical harnesses, HVAC system including lines, braking system (although in my case it has been highly modified/upgraded), cooling system, fuel tank, interior (mine is a hybrid using half Fiero and half custom) etc.
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But in reality, when does a car stop being a Fiero and becomes something else?
I suppose if one were to replace all of the items I mentioned above it would cease to be a Fiero. IMHO
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If the car has a different engine, different gearbox, different interior and different body and all it's using is the Fiero space frame for example, and it is not just a replica from another car, how can it not be a new car?
Ok I will give you the interior here, but the rest I am going to stand my ground. Here is my thinking:
1. The engine - When a replica is built with a different engine other than stock, aren't we doing exactly what Hulki Aldikacti and the other designers of the Fiero planned for in the original design of the car? Trust me, they didn't want the 2.5 L Iron Duke for a power plant. The car was originally conceived to be a V8. By replacing the engine with a more suitable choice, Fiero owners like to believe they are making the car the way it should have been when it rolled off the assembly line back when it was new.
2. The Gearbox - Transmissions are usually upgraded in order to support the increased power provided by the addition of a more powerful engine choice. For that reason, it too falls under the umbrella of making the car the way it should have been when it rolled off the assembly line when it was new.
3. The body - I realize I am reaching here...but, the space frame concept for the P Car was in fact designed with the idea in mind of replacing the Fiero body panels rather easily. I realize that it was also a manufacturing cost savings measure as tooling plastic is significantly cheaper than metal. The ease of replacing plastic panels was also supposed to reduce Fiero owners insurance costs along with improving crash test results. Having said all of that, custom builders have been making body panels for this little car since it first arrived to market. I had even hear talk that G.M. had planned on changing the body styling each model year do to the ease of retooling in plastic. I am not certain if that was the case but it certainly opens the door to the option of a replica platform.
See? So by my logic...often times they are still Fieros
We are onto a different topic than the one I had responded to originally. I was just defending the fact that there are other Fiero based replicas that look SOMETHING like the cars they pay tribute to. By your logic, I think you would still consider my non-stretched car a Fiero based replica. I think it looks something like the original .
Here is the thing. When it comes to replicas it's different. Because they will never be the real cars they are trying to imitate. So they can only be Fieros since original they also will never be.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:No I am not saying I would call ANY car a Fiero. I disagreed above because often times these replicas are still using many of the original systems and parts of the Fiero besides just the space frame. For example my car still has the original steering column and system, suspension (although modified), electrical harnesses, HVAC system including lines, braking system (although in my case it has been highly modified/upgraded), cooling system, fuel tank, interior (mine is a hybrid using half Fiero and half custom) etc.
Well your car is a replica right? I'm guessing Lambo? What do you have? If it's a replica then it can only be a Fiero since it can't be the original car it is trying to imitate. Otherwise what would it be? It's a Fiero yes.
But I was now speaking of original designs such as the Plazma, Patriot or even the Quicksilver. Is the Quicksilver a Fiero for you?
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:I suppose if one were to replace all of the items I mentioned above it would cease to be a Fiero. IMHO
You don't need to replace all of it. Several cars in several manufactuer's line ups share lots of parts. They are still considered different cars. I mean VW basically straight rebodied the Golf IV and called it an Audi TT. Just because somebody keeps the original steering column or the suspension etc it doesn't make it the same car. Many cars share these among themselves in manufacturers line ups.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:Ok I will give you the interior here, but the rest I am going to stand my ground. Here is my thinking:
1. The engine - When a replica is built with a different engine other than stock, aren't we doing exactly what Hulki Aldikacti and the other designers of the Fiero planned for in the original design of the car? Trust me, they didn't want the 2.5 L Iron Duke for a power plant. The car was originally conceived to be a V8. By replacing the engine with a more suitable choice, Fiero owners like to believe they are making the car the way it should have been when it rolled off the assembly line back when it was new.
2. The Gearbox - Transmissions are usually upgraded in order to support the increased power provided by the addition of a more powerful engine choice. For that reason, it too falls under the umbrella of making the car the way it should have been when it rolled off the assembly line when it was new.
3. The body - I realize I am reaching here...but, the space frame concept for the P Car was in fact designed with the idea in mind of replacing the Fiero body panels rather easily. I realize that it was also a manufacturing cost savings measure as tooling plastic is significantly cheaper than metal. The ease of replacing plastic panels was also supposed to reduce Fiero owners insurance costs along with improving crash test results. Having said all of that, custom builders have been making body panels for this little car since it first arrived to market. I had even hear talk that G.M. had planned on changing the body styling each model year do to the ease of retooling in plastic. I am not certain if that was the case but it certainly opens the door to the option of a replica platform.
See? So by my logic...often times they are still Fieros
So by your logic a MKI Audi TT is a Golf. The Elise is a Vauxhall. The Lamborghini Gallardo is an Audi, which is a VW and a Bentley is just a VW Passat.
As long as the VIN says it's a FIERO it's a FIERO. If it is extremely modified the most important part of the car is the insurance policy coverage. If it's registered as a 87 FIERO and you have a standard insurance policy that is what you would be compensated for if it was damaged / destroyed. Companies like Hagerty, Grundy and others will insure your vehicle at an agreed value but some restrictions are placed on vehicle use. Also, some states including the one I'm in (Virginia) will allow the owner to add to the basic vehicle description. My car is registered as a FIERO/Ferrari and insured at a agreed value with no depreciation.
I guess you could look at this way. Doesn't make it right though. It's like saying a couple who have lived together for 30 years but is not married is somehow a lesser couple than a married one. The vin is just a piece of paper or a number. Doesn't change what the actual car is. If VW can call a rebodied Golf a different car and get away with it, I don't see why one should get stuck on the technicality of a vin if it's obvious the car is more different from a Fiero than the TT was from a Golf.
I was simply making a point that Fiero based replicas (as you define them) CAN look something like the original. I am a little confused by your posts, because it seems now that your issue is weather or not a Fiero is a Fiero. I was under the impression that you meant that no other Fiero based kitcar can look anything like the original with the exception of The Stinger. And all others that do look like the original, aren't Fieros anymore by definition (according to you). They have been cut, stretched, engine swapped, gear box switched, interior redone etc.
Then you wrote this out of left field:
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Originally posted by Rn2016:
So you would still call any car a Fiero regardless of how modified it is? It's hard for example to say a Plazma is still a Fiero. Or that the Patriot was a Fiero. Wouldn't you say?
So I replied in detail, even though I had never even hinted at the fact that I had a problem with which cars qualify as Fieros and which do not. I had responded "No I am not saying I would call ANY car a Fiero. I disagreed above because often times these replicas are still using many of the original systems and parts of the Fiero besides just the space frame."
I'm not gonna lie...you completely lost me with this:
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I feel like there is two sides of a coin at work here. Not talking particularly about you here, but in general. At one side there are the people who like to dismiss the Fiero. Normally people who don't own one. Calling it little crappy car, death trap and all sorts of ignorant stuff. I remember watching a video on youtube with a full blown idiot driving around, when he spotted what looked to be a real Ferrari Mondial. He then tells his friend in the car with him that the Ferrari is a Fiero. His friend says something like, no way. He then pulls up next to the Mondial on a stop light and asks the driver what car it was. The driver replies Ferrari and the idiot says, a Fiero? The guy says again, Ferrari... The idiot, oh a Fiero, ok and laughs (I'm typing from memory but it went similar to that). You can see the Ferrari driver's face is a mix of frustration and pity for the guy. I'm pretty sure it was a real Mondial and let's face it, who would make a replica of a Mondial? Also, any self respecting Fiero replica owner would have said it's a replica I guess. So some use the Fiero thing to put others down by dismissing the Fiero.
Now on the other side of the coin, I see Fiero owners not dismissing the Fiero (how could they? They own one) but dismissing the work. Well, it's just a Fiero, just like mine. I recently read a thread here about a guy with a Mera bodykit wanting to register it as a real Mera. He got very dismissive when he was told he had a kitcar. He said something like, What's the difference? It is still a Fiero underneath just like your pile of s***! So there ar epeople who will dismiss the extensiveness of the mod just so not to admit it's something more special than his own car. This seem to happen often as I'm finding out reading about Fiero customization online.
I am sure you had a point here...but I can only speak for myself when I say that I didn't follow it.
Then you posted:
"Here is the thing. When it comes to replicas it's different. Because they will never be the real cars they are trying to imitate. So they can only be Fieros since original they also will never be."
I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have no idea how that has anything to do with the statement you quoted me writing above your response. They where totally unrelated.
Your final point about the difference or no difference between cars like the Audi TT and the Golf was also something I didn't even hint at. While your point about cars sharing many parts is a valid one, I don't understand how it relates to weather or not a Fiero based kitcar can look ANYTHING like the original.
If I have misunderstood you or your writing in any way, I apologize. I try to write very clearly so as to not confuse anyone reading my posts.
OK. I can see where the confusion is coming from and it's my fault.
Yes, we have two kind of unrelated topics going. But they are still related somehow.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:I was simply making a point that Fiero based replicas (as you define them) CAN look something like the original. I am a little confused by your posts, because it seems now that your issue is weather or not a Fiero is a Fiero.
This is not really the original issue. I just wanted to talk about it. It was just something which sprang from our discussions and that I brought up. I think that if a car has an original design, uses a different engine, gearbox etc, it is a new car. Even if it still uses Fiero parts. An Audi TT is not a Golf, even though only the body is different.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:I was under the impression that you meant that no other Fiero based kitcar can look anything like the original with the exception of The Stinger. And all others that do look like the original, aren't Fieros anymore by definition (according to you). They have been cut, stretched, engine swapped, gear box switched, interior redone etc.
Yes. This is what I originally meant and still do. But I saw you kind of took issue with it and I didn't feel like insisting on the point. I'm not here to offend people. Even though you said you were not offended, I felt like I had put my point across and there was no need to keep hammering at it. I then brought up the other somewhat related topic since what we were talking about reminded me of that situation with "It's just a Fiero".
But yes, to clarify and reiterate, I still believe the Stinger is the only replica I have seen based on the original Fiero chassis that looks good or anything like the real thing. All the other replicas of cars with longer wheelbase made with the Fiero stock wheelbase look funny to me. You need just one look at them from the side to see they are fake. There is a reason why you never really see side pictures on for sale adds for such replicas. Only 3/4 pics. Side pictures give the game away.
I could name all the kits out there which are trying to imitate Ferraris, Lambos etc but use the stock Fiero frame and look very off and funny. But like I said I don't want to offend anybody. It's just my opinion. In general I see no point in replicas. Even if they are dead on accurate. It will always be a fake. If they look fake at first sight then everybody knows and most likely find it silly. If they look very accurate, at some point it will come out and people will then still go, "So it's just a fake?". Because they will never be the real thing. And most importantly, they will never drive and sound like the real thing. Not much point in my opinion to have something that looks like a Lambo or F40 but drives nothing like it or even sounds. To me a sports car is to drive rather than just for looks. By the time you get it to drive or sound like the real thing you could probably buy the real thing. If my dream was to have a Countach, a replica would never fulfill that dream. It would only remind me every day I can't have the real thing. So I see no point in replicas. But this is me. I understand and respect others might have a different opinion.
But my favorite Fieros are clean bone stock examples with only mechanical enhancements and things you can't see but only feel. If modified, then totally original cars and designs using the Fiero as a start. I'm even fine with things like widebodies if done in good taste. But I see no point in replicas and particularly dislike pseudo-replicas. Again, that's just my opinion. I'm well aware others will disagree and I respect that.
Going back to looking anything like the real thing, besides the Stinger, all the replicas I have seen which look like the real thing were done with stretched and reframed Fieros. Like that Miura which is almost unbelievable it started as a Fiero. If there are any other replicas besides 308s which look correct on a stock Fiero chassis, please feel free to point them out because I have never seen them. I give the Mera and other 308s a pass because although not as convincing as the Stinger, at least they don't look funny. They are just more obviously replicas. But they still look good. Because the 308 has almost an identical wheelbase. It is actually a inch shorter. The wheelbase is the deal breaker. 1" not a big deal. 3" is already enough to throw it off. Hence why 308 replicas look good.
In another thread somebody mentioned some have asked if his replica made with a stock Fiero frame was the real thing. Well, that is not really any way to gauge things. I guess if you live in a small town or an area where people have never seen a real Lambo or Ferrari in person they might be fooled. But I doubt for example in Miami beach any joe off the street would be fooled by a short wheelbase Lambo look alike. I live in Europe now where Alfa 4Cs, Caymans and 911s are a more common sight than Vettes in the U.S. Audi R8s are quite common and you see Galardos all the time. 355s and 348s are also not rare. I personally know a few people with real 308s and 328s, as well as a R8 and a few other modern sports car. 458s, 488 and McLarens you just need to go near a F1 race track and the parking lot is full of them. Things like brand new TTs, M3s, M5s, Audi S, Giulias, AMGs etc are just run of the mill. Mercedes E and S classes are cabs. This is my frame of reference. I'm sure people who live in Miami, London and other areas where supercars are normal will understand what I mean. A replica here is riduculous since the real thing is so common place. A bone stock Fiero here is a nicer sight than some Ferrari look alike.
Now the thing about stretched and reframed Fiero replicas being a Fiero or not is this. They are still Fieros. They are definitely not the Lambos or Ferraris they are imitating right? So they can only be the Fieros they started as. But I don't call them Fiero based. They are made using Fiero parts. Fiero based to me would be a simple rebody or reskin. Might be semantics. But it's a way I personally use to differentiate a simple rebody to something that is re-structural. But regardless, they can never be anything else besides a Fiero because they are not original and they are not what they are copying.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:Then you wrote this out of left field:
quote Originally posted by Rn2016:
So you would still call any car a Fiero regardless of how modified it is? It's hard for example to say a Plazma is still a Fiero. Or that the Patriot was a Fiero. Wouldn't you say?
So I replied in detail, even though I had never even hinted at the fact that I had a problem with which cars qualify as Fieros and which do not. I had responded "No I am not saying I would call ANY car a Fiero. I disagreed above because often times these replicas are still using many of the original systems and parts of the Fiero besides just the space frame."
You are right. You never said you had a problem with which cars qualify as Fieros and which do not. Our conversation just reminded me of that "issue" and I brought it up into the mix. Because this is something I'm coming across a lot now that I'm reading through old threads while researching about swaps etc.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:I'm not gonna lie...you completely lost me with this:
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I feel like there is two sides of a coin at work here. Not talking particularly about you here, but in general. At one side there are the people who like to dismiss the Fiero. Normally people who don't own one. Calling it little crappy car, death trap and all sorts of ignorant stuff. I remember watching a video on youtube with a full blown idiot driving around, when he spotted what looked to be a real Ferrari Mondial. He then tells his friend in the car with him that the Ferrari is a Fiero. His friend says something like, no way. He then pulls up next to the Mondial on a stop light and asks the driver what car it was. The driver replies Ferrari and the idiot says, a Fiero? The guy says again, Ferrari... The idiot, oh a Fiero, ok and laughs (I'm typing from memory but it went similar to that). You can see the Ferrari driver's face is a mix of frustration and pity for the guy. I'm pretty sure it was a real Mondial and let's face it, who would make a replica of a Mondial? Also, any self respecting Fiero replica owner would have said it's a replica I guess. So some use the Fiero thing to put others down by dismissing the Fiero.
Now on the other side of the coin, I see Fiero owners not dismissing the Fiero (how could they? They own one) but dismissing the work. Well, it's just a Fiero, just like mine. I recently read a thread here about a guy with a Mera bodykit wanting to register it as a real Mera. He got very dismissive when he was told he had a kitcar. He said something like, What's the difference? It is still a Fiero underneath just like your pile of s***! So there ar epeople who will dismiss the extensiveness of the mod just so not to admit it's something more special than his own car. This seem to happen often as I'm finding out reading about Fiero customization online.
I am sure you had a point here...but I can only speak for myself when I say that I didn't follow it.
My point there was exactly what I wrote. Non Fiero owners use the "It's just a Fiero" to put a car down as nothing special. (Some) Fiero owners use the "It's just a Fiero" to put the car down as nothing special or nothing better than what they have. The same sentiment of "It's just a Fiero" is used by both sides. One out of ignorance and maybe jealousy and the other out of pure jealousy most likely. Thankfully it's not all Fiero owners and it's probably a minority of them. But this is something I picked up on while reading back to back old threads for a whole Sunday while trying to do my homework on swaps etc. Reading it back to back made this sentiment stick out like a sore thumb. It kept coming up, on both sides. By Fiero owners on Fiero forums and by non Fiero owners in general car forums. Since our conversation was somewhat related and I wanted to talk about it I brought it up here. Maybe I should have started a new thread to discuss it.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:Then you posted:
"Here is the thing. When it comes to replicas it's different. Because they will never be the real cars they are trying to imitate. So they can only be Fieros since original they also will never be."
I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have no idea how that has anything to do with the statement you quoted me writing above your response.
Like I explained now a few times, no it doesn't have a lot to do with your statement. Hopefully now I have made myself clear.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:They where totally unrelated.
Not totally. Maybe now you can see how it made me think of the other topic.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:Your final point about the difference or no difference between cars like the Audi TT and the Golf was also something I didn't even hint at. While your point about cars sharing many parts is a valid one, I don't understand how it relates to weather or not a Fiero based kitcar can look ANYTHING like the original.
Again, please see above as this is the same argument you made throughout this whole reply. I hope I have explained myself more clearly now
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:If I have misunderstood you or your writing in any way, I apologize. I try to write very clearly so as to not confuse anyone reading my posts.
Regards, Van
No need to apologize. Besides I don't think you misunderstood me. I think you just misunderstood where I was coming from and how it fits in our conversation and this was entirely my fault. I hope I have now clearly explained why I brought up the topic.
I absolutely understand now! Thank you for an excellent and well written explanation. I have to be honest, I toyed with not even responding my last time because I was having trouble making sense of what we were even talking about anymore lol . I felt that I had to reply because, to your credit you had laid out so many good points that I couldn't just give up on you . I am glad that I did respond because I am crystal clear on all of your points now. I even agree with most of what you have stated. You clearly have strong opinions on this topic. I think that is great. This forum allows people to get all kinds of perspective with regards to the projects we undertake. I feel like it offers me the opportunity to learn and look at things in different ways. This is a good example of that for me.
I still have to agree to disagree with you though. I live in South Florida. Although I haven't brought my car down to Miami, I have made my way to Delray Beach and Boca Raton. Anyone who has ever been to either place knows that they are playgrounds filled with exotic supercars. I am sure there where plenty of people (both hard core enthusiasts and regular folks alike) that could spot my car as a replica. However, I am quite certain that there where just as many people that could not. If you think about it Rn, MOST people are not nearly as knowledgeable on the subject as a person like you. Not even remotely close, I dare say. This is where we disagree. You think everyone knows it's a "FAKE" and that an owner of one would be embarrassed as such. I polemically disagree. I think MOST people have no friggin' clue and go "ape sh@t" over my car as soon as they see it. Even in the presence of brand new modern supercars. People say things like "Wow that is old school" as they ogle over the car after getting out of an Aventador. It happened. Not only am I not embarrassed, but I am proud to tell people it is a Fiero. You wouldn't believe the people you can meet that appreciate the creativity involved in creating something like what we are talking about. Have I met haters? Absolutely. I thoroughly enjoy it. Sometimes I choose to ignore a comment like "Hey nice kitcar!" I go on my way knowing that if they are aware that it is a replica, they are also aware of how much skill, time, money, creativity, diligence, resourcefulness and effort is required. Then I ask myself whether or not that person possesses those same. I smile . Then there are times where I do respond. Nothing crazy or nasty. Just usually like, "Hey thanks, nice 1994 Mazda pickup truck!" (No offense to anyone out there with a Mazda pickup). Seems haters always drive something like that.
So we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't build my car to fool anyone. I build it because it is my version of the best Fiero it can be for me. I don't think of it as anything more than a Fiero. I don't think of it as anything less than a Fiero. Just a cool Fiero...
I absolutely understand now! Thank you for an excellent and well written explanation. I have to be honest, I toyed with not even responding my last time because I was having trouble making sense of what we were even talking about anymore lol . I felt that I had to reply because, to your credit you had laid out so many good points that I couldn't just give up on you . I am glad that I did respond because I am crystal clear on all of your points now. I even agree with most of what you have stated. You clearly have strong opinions on this topic. I think that is great. This forum allows people to get all kinds of perspective with regards to the projects we undertake. I feel like it offers me the opportunity to learn and look at things in different ways. This is a good example of that for me.
I still have to agree to disagree with you though. I live in South Florida. Although I haven't brought my car down to Miami, I have made my way to Delray Beach and Boca Raton. Anyone who has ever been to either place knows that they are playgrounds filled with exotic supercars. I am sure there where plenty of people (both hard core enthusiasts and regular folks alike) that could spot my car as a replica. However, I am quite certain that there where just as many people that could not. If you think about it Rn, MOST people are not nearly as knowledgeable on the subject as a person like you. Not even remotely close, I dare say. This is where we disagree. You think everyone knows it's a "FAKE" and that an owner of one would be embarrassed as such. I polemically disagree. I think MOST people have no friggin' clue and go "ape sh@t" over my car as soon as they see it. Even in the presence of brand new modern supercars. People say things like "Wow that is old school" as they ogle over the car after getting out of an Aventador. It happened. Not only am I not embarrassed, but I am proud to tell people it is a Fiero. You wouldn't believe the people you can meet that appreciate the creativity involved in creating something like what we are talking about. Have I met haters? Absolutely. I thoroughly enjoy it. Sometimes I choose to ignore a comment like "Hey nice kitcar!" I go on my way knowing that if they are aware that it is a replica, they are also aware of how much skill, time, money, creativity, diligence, resourcefulness and effort is required. Then I ask myself whether or not that person possesses those same. I smile . Then there are times where I do respond. Nothing crazy or nasty. Just usually like, "Hey thanks, nice 1994 Mazda pickup truck!" (No offense to anyone out there with a Mazda pickup). Seems haters always drive something like that.
So we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't build my car to fool anyone. I build it because it is my version of the best Fiero it can be for me. I don't think of it as anything more than a Fiero. I don't think of it as anything less than a Fiero. Just a cool Fiero...
Regards, -Van
Fair game Van.
I'm glad you are happy with your car. What is it by the way? I don't think you ever said.
It's not really a matter of being embarrassed or not though. You are right. A good replica takes lots of work, patient, talent etc. So to me I would rather put that into an original design and make it my own. Because then it is real no matter what point of view. Just wanted to explain that angle a bit better. Not about being embarrassed but about seeing a point to the thing. You obviously see a point in a replica and that is fine.
I picture the following situation. I'm to meet up some buddies to grab a coffee somewhere. One comes in his real 308, the other in his R8 and the third in his Merak. I pull over in a Countach short wheelbase obviously replica. I wouldn't see the point. I would rather pull up in a stock Fiero GT. They are very slowly becoming a classic even in the U.S. Here nobody knows what they are. Even those who know have probably never seen one. But if it was about being ashamed I would not pull up in a Fiero next to friends who have such cars because they will probably know about the Fiero and that it is cheap.. Yet I don't care about that. Because I see a point, which is I have a 1980's sports car. A real or original car. I hope that makes sense. But regardless you are right. Let's agree to disagree as we can be here the whole day at this.
[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 11-28-2017).]
I'm glad you are happy with your car. What is it by the way? I don't think you ever said.
It's not really a matter of being embarrassed or not though. You are right. A good replica takes lots of work, patient, talent etc. So to me I would rather put that into an original design and make it my own. Because then it is real no matter what point of view. Just wanted to explain that angle a bit better. Not about being embarrassed but about seeing a point to the thing. You obviously see a point in a replica and that is fine.
I picture the following situation. I'm to meet up some buddies to grab a coffee somewhere. One comes in his real 308, the other in his R8 and the third in his Merak. I pull over in a Countach short wheelbase obviously replica. I wouldn't see the point. I would rather pull up in a stock Fiero GT. They are very slowly becoming a classic even in the U.S. Here nobody knows what they are. Even those who know have probably never seen one. But if it was about being ashamed I would not pull up in a Fiero next to friends who have such cars because they will probably know about the Fiero and that it is cheap.. Yet I don't care about that. Because I see a point, which is I have a 1980's sports car. A real or original car. I hope that makes sense. But regardless you are right. Let's agree to disagree as we can be here the whole day at this.
Once again, I see your point. On a lighter note...you have some wealthy friends . Although that does remind me of a story. I went to a high end restaurant to meet my boss one night. He showed up in a brand new 500sl Mercedes Benz convertible (I realize this is not in the class of automobiles you referenced in your example) where the sticker was practically still in the window. We pulled up to the place at the same time. Plenty of people out front of the place. He spent the rest of the night laughing about the fact that he had spent $100k and nobody even looked at it. While I could barely make my way into the place between people asking to take pics with the car and firing questions at me left and right. "He kept saying "I should have bought a Pontiac!" I do see your point though. I guess it's because I am not trying to pass it off as the real McCoy, that I am able to be happy with my car. As I mentioned earlier, I have known people in the kitcar world that flat out lie to people about their car's authenticity. I could never be happy taking that approach.
Yes, I hinted to the fact that my car was a Lambo replica earlier in the thread when I wrote that my car "falls into the latter category". I specifically avoided mentioning any further details because I didn't want this discussion to be about my car per say. Just about the topic in general. My car is a stock wheelbased Countach. Yes I am aware that many in even the kitcar world (let alone the Fiero world) love to hate on cars like mine . I am completely ok with it.
Fieros are certainly not common here in the U.S. They are also not considered extremely rare yet. I think that may have some effect on the difference in our perspectives.
Mine is based on a 1985 GT. I don't recall you mentioning what model you have. Let me know...
Once again, I see your point. On a lighter note...you have some wealthy friends . Although that does remind me of a story. I went to a high end restaurant to meet my boss one night. He showed up in a brand new 500sl Mercedes Benz convertible (I realize this is not in the class of automobiles you referenced in your example) where the sticker was practically still in the window. We pulled up to the place at the same time. Plenty of people out front of the place. He spent the rest of the night laughing about the fact that he had spent $100k and nobody even looked at it. While I could barely make my way into the place between people asking to take pics with the car and firing questions at me left and right. "He kept saying "I should have bought a Pontiac!" I do see your point though. I guess it's because I am not trying to pass it off as the real McCoy, that I am able to be happy with my car. As I mentioned earlier, I have known people in the kitcar world that flat out lie to people about their car's authenticity. I could never be happy taking that approach.
Yes, I hinted to the fact that my car was a Lambo replica earlier in the thread when I wrote that my car "falls into the latter category". I specifically avoided mentioning any further details because I didn't want this discussion to be about my car per say. Just about the topic in general. My car is a stock wheelbased Countach. Yes I am aware that many in even the kitcar world (let alone the Fiero world) love to hate on cars like mine . I am completely ok with it.
Fieros are certainly not common here in the U.S. They are also not considered extremely rare yet. I think that may have some effect on the difference in our perspectives.
Mine is based on a 1985 GT. I don't recall you mentioning what model you have. Let me know...
HAGO My new European friend, -Van
Well, those cars are probably worth a lot more there than here though. But I do know some people with great cars.
Where can I see pictures of your car? Now you have got me curious.
I don't have a Fiero yet. I'm still researching. My main problem is I would want a swap but finding a 3800 SC here is nearly impossible. Swapping an European engine in would be difficult if it has never been done. Importing the engine from the U.S would probably be better importing an already swapped car. Since they are not that common here I don't even have a whole lot of choice. So I'm considering more and more importing one, as much headache as the process here might be. But for now I'm just researching it. I started it a while ago but then got side tracked by another car. Now I'm back at this. I would like a 1988 GT or at least 1987. Better if it is a hard top. Not even a sun roof. But like I said my options here are very limited.
What I want is a 1980's mid engine sports car. To get something European I'm out in the cold as anything would be exotic and very high maintenance. Any 1980's European mid engine sports car have already become expensive classics by now. I'm 7 to 10 years too late. You used to be able to get some of them for under 10K not too long ago.
Besides European there is only the Fiero and MR2. Never liked the MR2. So Fiero it is.
Where can I see pictures of your car? Now you have got me curious.
SIDE PROFILE FIRST
I have since finished off the molding strips on both the trunk area and the back tonneau cover.
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I don't have a Fiero yet. I'm still researching. My main problem is I would want a swap but finding a 3800 SC here is nearly impossible. Swapping an European engine in would be difficult if it has never been done. Importing the engine from the U.S would probably be better importing an already swapped car. Since they are not that common here I don't even have a whole lot of choice. So I'm considering more and more importing one, as much headache as the process here might be. But for now I'm just researching it. I started it a while ago but then got side tracked by another car. Now I'm back at this. I would like a 1988 GT or at least 1987. Better if it is a hard top. Not even a sun roof. But like I said my options here are very limited.
I can see how you have your work cut out for you over there. I wish you good luck with whatever you decide.
-Van
[This message has been edited by VanGTP5000 (edited 11-28-2017).]
Aha, the open door shot. I noticed many for sale adds go for that shot. Do you have a side shot with the doors closed?
I will be perfectly honest with you. It does look like a replica already at first sight. But I'm a petrolhead. So to the layman probably not so quick.
Although the overall shape and details are more of a give away than the wheelbase here. It's much more square and boxy than the Countach. BUT! It does look very good. It looks well put together and I can see your attention to detail. I specially like the wheels and how you tried to stay true to the original wheels.
My favorite part is the front end and the wing. They look the most like the real thing. My least favorite is the rear end where the tail lights are and the side edges along the car. They look boxier than the real thing.
All together it is a good looking car. I can see why it catches attention.
Is it a kit or did you make it from scratch? It's one of the better looking Countach on stock Fiero frames I have seen. While I would not mistake it for the real thing, I have to agree with you it does look like it some. Congratulations and well done! Lots of work went into it and it shows.
How does it drive?
Would love to see more pictures from more angles and specially a side shot with closed doors and an interior shot.
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Originally posted by VanGTP5000:I can see how you have your work cut out for you over there. I wish you good luck with whatever you decide.
-Van
Oh boy, I know. But like I said if not a Fiero then what? 914 is too old and a Cayman is too new.
Rn thank you very much. You have a pm. I feel as though we have taken over this Stinger thread. I don't want to upset anyone (assuming we haven't already). My apologies if that is the case.
-Van
[This message has been edited by VanGTP5000 (edited 11-28-2017).]
I don't think anybody who has a Stinger can be angry at anything.
But you have a point. Although apparently I'm too stupid to find my message inbox.
Once again you make a valid point
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