I don't know. Some folks get lucky. I don't plan to beat on it. I hope driving it hard will not break it. But if it does, i'll address the problems as they occur. Having spent about 5 years with a New Gen GTO, im familiar with breaking axles, stubs and hubs. I know a few places that specialize in custom axles and hubs for the GTO rear end. Since i don't know what may break, or what part of the trans is weak, i don't yet know what needs to be done. But i'll deal with it when/if it happens.
Rob
Not trying to rain on your parade; only point out some useful info that the Getrag design limit is 250ft lbs max. If you are aware of this, then the decison to put it behind an LS3 is your's alone. However, based on the specs and the Getrag's construction putting 426 HP into the venerable box w 460 ft lbs of torque is certainly pushing it .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Not trying to rain on your parade; only point out some useful info that the Getrag design limit is 250ft lbs max. If you are aware of this, then the decison to put it behind an LS3 is your's alone. However, based on the specs and the Getrag's construction putting 426 HP into the venerable box w 460 ft lbs of torque is certainly pushing it .
Thanks Dennis. I understand.
I guess then the question is, and maybe it deserves a new thread, what is the best thing to do. As you can guess, I have been getting PM's from everyone who wants to offer up thier $.02 cents on this issue. They continue to tell me how stupid it is to do a V8 swap, and how its even dumber to go with the Getrag 282. I've had one turbo V6 guy contact me with a 1/4 mile challenge so he can show everyone how dumb it is to put a LS motor into a Fiero. My budget will not allow for the extra $$$ for the 6 speed, at least not at this time. I will not go Automatic and I don't have the $$$ for a WCF 5/6 speed. I know that a lot of folks in "fiero land" have motors that make 400hp/400lbs so what trans are they using? I know that many of the SC 3800 guys are making big torque, what trans are they using. I don't understand how a turbo V6 (making 400hp/tq) can handle the power better than a V8. If they are going with the Getrag, then what have they done to them to make them last, finally what is the best choice. I don't plan to beat on it, and I have known them to last for years in other swaps.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 10-25-2010).]
Is an automatic tap shift out of the question? The LS4 can come with this and the 4t65ehd can be built stronger than any other transverse tranny. I'm looking at the turbo kit for the LS4 which delivers 505 rwhp with an upgraded automatic.
Sorry to hear you are getting dumped on I love the idea of the LS3 and it is not a bad idea to use a v8 in my oppinion. Each to there own doing somthing different is cool in its own right. I do feel that the getrag is very suspect in v8 applications that is why I decided to go with the LS4 and use the automatic trans that comes with it. I hate losing the stick but tap shift should be fun. The main difference in your big v8 verses the turbo v6's is shock load no turbo lag and from a standing start you will have a enough torque to break the getrag. The torque rating on the 6 speed is not much more then the getrag. With that said if you do not side step the clutch and do most of your playing from a roll you might surprise some people how long it may last. Again no one should beat you around the head and neck for doing something different, discuss yes, trash no Good luck
Sorry to hear you are getting dumped on I love the idea of the LS3 and it is not a bad idea to use a v8 in my oppinion. Each to there own doing somthing different is cool in its own right. I do feel that the getrag is very suspect in v8 applications that is why I decided to go with the LS4 and use the automatic trans that comes with it. I hate losing the stick but tap shift should be fun. The main difference in your big v8 verses the turbo v6's is shock load no turbo lag and from a standing start you will have a enough torque to break the getrag. The torque rating on the 6 speed is not much more then the getrag. With that said if you do not side step the clutch and do most of your playing from a roll you might surprise some people how long it may last. Again no one should beat you around the head and neck for doing something different, discuss yes, trash no Good luck
The turbo lag thing makes sense, and "shock load" was/is the big question. I guess we will see.
I guess then the question is, and maybe it deserves a new thread, what is the best thing to do. As you can guess, I have been getting PM's from everyone who wants to offer up thier $.02 cents on this issue. They continue to tell me how stupid it is to do a V8 swap, and how its even dumber to go with the Getrag 282. I've had one turbo V6 guy contact me with a 1/4 mile challenge so he can show everyone how dumb it is to put a LS motor into a Fiero. My budget will not allow for the extra $$$ for the 6 speed, at least not at this time. I will not go Automatic and I don't have the $$$ for a WCF 5/6 speed. I know that a lot of folks in "fiero land" have motors that make 400hp/400lbs so what trans are they using? I know that many of the SC 3800 guys are making big torque, what trans are they using. I don't understand how a turbo V6 (making 400hp/tq) can handle the power better than a V8. If they are going with the Getrag, then what have they done to them to make them last, finally what is the best choice. I don't plan to beat on it, and I have known them to last for years in other swaps.
Rob
Rob: Its not a dumb idea to go V8. If that's what you like. go for it. It doesn't always come down to only the 1/4 mile. Some guys like the look, the feel, the sound and the high torque of a V8 and that's coming from a V6 man. Actually the high tech aluminum V8's are not unreasonably heavy and make tons of horsepower. They will be harder on gas than the V6 engines though. Many of the guys with high performance engines use the 4T65eHD as it can be built to hold a 1000 HP engine. Some guys just won't have an auto, still insist on the Getrag and take their chances with it. A few have gone to the stronger Beretta Getrag with the larger ring/spider gear set and a couple have had the case cryo treated. Actually I have not heard of many failures with the Beretta Getrag A few have gone the route of the 6 speed but its costly. If you must have a stick on a budget, I would go with the Beretta Getrag. With Rodneys conversion kit its an easy mod. Whichever route you take, you'll find plenty of advise here.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Some guys just won't have an auto, still insist on the Getrag and take their chances with it. A few have gone to the stronger Beretta Getrag with the larger ring/spider gear set and a couple have had the case cryo treated. Actually I have not heard of many failures with the Beretta Getrag A few have gone the route of the 6 speed but its costly. If you must have a stick on a budget, I would go with the Beretta Getrag. With Rodneys conversion kit its an easy mod. Whichever route you take, you'll find plenty of advise here.
Rob: Its not a dumb idea to go V8. If that's what you like. go for it. It doesn't always come down to only the 1/4 mile. Some guys like the look, the feel, the sound and the high torque of a V8 and that's coming from a V6 man. Actually the high tech aluminum V8's are not unreasonably heavy and make tons of horsepower. They will be harder on gas than the V6 engines though. Many of the guys with high performance engines use the 4T65eHD as it can be built to hold a 1000 HP engine. Some guys just won't have an auto, still insist on the Getrag and take their chances with it. A few have gone to the stronger Beretta Getrag with the larger ring/spider gear set and a couple have had the case cryo treated. Actually I have not heard of many failures with the Beretta Getrag A few have gone the route of the 6 speed but its costly. If you must have a stick on a budget, I would go with the Beretta Getrag. With Rodneys conversion kit its an easy mod. Whichever route you take, you'll find plenty of advise here.
Dennis, great info. Your one of the good guys, so don't worry about flames from me. I appreciate all the info I can get, and I don't care if its been posted before. Its always of use. I do have the 94 Getrag and it does have the HD Diff with an EP LSD. It is not cryo'd and i may do that in the future. Tight schedule for this chapter. I'll risk it for now, and maybe downrange i'll work on building a "no **** " strong Getrag. I guess in the end the folks who have expressed thier opinion are serious race types, who don't understand that you can build a fast car and not take it to the track. My 05 GTO was putting down close to 450 at the wheels, and it would run low 12's all day. High 11's may have been do-able but I don't have a racing background. The local club went to the track a few times a year, and while it was fun, I like cruzing, showing and hanging out with other car guys. You are 100% correct, if I was building a "race car" i'd go with the auto trans. Its better for racing and way stronger.
Thanks again.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 10-25-2010).]
Getrag Trans made it to Archie today. He also got a few box's from Rodney Dickman, and the Held MS 88 suspension too. A few box's are in the mail, and the 88 cradle should be there in the next day or so. It all should go together over the next few days, and I hope to be heading up to Archies in a few weeks.
I get that you want a clutch pedal, so that is what's best for you. I wasn't sure that you were aware of the tap shift option. Lambos are 90% paddle shift now. Formula ones are all tap and I think I read that some new Ferraris are tap shift only. Never meant as a flame or put down. You're going to have a great car. I love those LS engines. Mines an LS4. My friends LS4 easily gets 30 mpg.
I get that you want a clutch pedal, so that is what's best for you. I wasn't sure that you were aware of the tap shift option. Lambos are 90% paddle shift now. Formula ones are all tap and I think I read that some new Ferraris are tap shift only. Never meant as a flame or put down. You're going to have a great car. I love those LS engines. Mines an LS4. My friends LS4 easily gets 30 mpg.
I have an LS4 in my 88GT and I CANT "easily" get 30mpg. It is stock with the 4T65EHD that came in the 06 Monty. I get averaged city and highway 25mpg. I really am trying to NOT change the topic here but can you prove that your friend is actually getting an "easy" 30mpg and how is your friend doing it? My Fiero is a toy and not for mpg. So 25 is great for me, I would love to have a manual on it and already have the F40 6 speed. But for now the auto will work.
know that a lot of folks in "fiero land" have motors that make 400hp/400lbs so what trans are they using? I know that many of the SC 3800 guys are making big torque, what trans are they using.
Dennis knows that all of the manual setups coming out of Flint up here are all 282 getrags, and they have all made more power and have been raced more than the LSx stuff that archie has..... He just neglects to remember this, and for some reason enjoys voicing his opinion on things that he has zero experience with.
The 282 will have no problems with the relatively tiny power that V8 is going to make, and I am doubting he will put a real clutch in there that would hold enough to damage the trans in the "back half".
If he goes about doing 1st gear launches off a 2step, he is probably going to break something, but my guess would be an axle outer, or a spider gear in the diff. The "big spider" EP diff I installed was able to blow an axle to bits before the spiders got hurt.
I just want to answer Rickady88gt and then let this get back on topic. The 30 mpg that I was referring to was hearsay based on a trip where no one was trying for gas mileage and lots of playing around so I said "easily".. I can't prove it. I'm not trying to get anyone to switch from their desire for a stick over an auto, I've been there and can appreciate that. In the fairly recent past if you had a "sports car" it was never considered an option to go automatic. My 55 austin healey had a 5.0 mustang engine with an automatic in it when I bought it and I put a 4 speed top loader in it right away with no regrets. I have huge respect for the quality swaps by both Archie and Rickady88gt.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 10-26-2010).]
He got 30 mpg on the free way if Rick is getting 25 combined that is great if You took a freeway trip only I bet your car is near or at 30 hiway also and lows 20's in town. Both of these engines came out of cars rated at 26 hiway and weighed 800-1000 pounds more.
Originally posted by darkhorizon: The 282 will have no problems with the relatively tiny power that V8 is going to make, and I am doubting he will put a real clutch in there that would hold enough to damage the trans in the "back half".
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darkhorizon: The 282 will have no problems with the relatively tiny power that V8 is going to make, and I am doubting he will put a real clutch in there that would hold enough to damage the trans in the "back half".
480 hp is tiny???
The last fiero to leave camp up here a few days ago was making about 390, and I thought something was horribly wrong until i had him race my buddies car. Hows that for a full service 3800 swap?
The days of 500hp being alot, is long gone (for me).
The last fiero to leave camp up here a few days ago was making about 390, and I thought something was horribly wrong until i had him race my buddies car. Hows that for a full service 3800 swap?
The days of 500hp being alot, is long gone (for me).
DH, since you know everything there is to know on every topic, Don't you think it's about time you start your own thread on all the wonderful cars you build?
DH, since you know everything there is to know on every topic, Don't you think it's about time you start your own thread on all the wonderful cars you build?
Archie
I have, but not all ended up on this forum. Performance based threads of my topics are not very productive it seems so I stopped doing it. I have 1 of my personal fieros on here in threads, I have not started one for my 90% complete daily driver 500+hp fiero yet, nor the last "customer" fiero that went through.
Otherwise, I am really curious to see how that rear suspension works out.
I have, but not all ended up on this forum. Performance based threads of my topics are not very productive it seems so I stopped doing it. I have 1 of my personal fieros on here in threads, I have not started one for my 90% complete daily driver 500+hp fiero yet, nor the last "customer" fiero that went through.
Otherwise, I am really curious to see how that rear suspension works out.
Good for you, start your own thread, this one is not about you.
It was started by a member about his own car & he has made it clear that he wants it to stay on topic as he defined that topic.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-26-2010).]
Glad to see that this thread has a lot of looks, but yea, its kind of grown into a typical flame thread. I have folks from other parts of my life watching this (family, local car guys) and they can't believe we talk like this to each other. I know "freedom of speech" and all that, but im still amazed that in 2010 the Fiero community still has so much in-fighting. You'd think by now we'd all just drop the "my dick is bigger than yours" HIGH SCHOOL bull $hit and just get along. I know that this thread has gotten slow because the actual "build" portion has not started yet, so I hope that page 3 will be the best part of it. I am shooting for Nov 8th to be up at Archies, and more pics should be flowing by then.
Well the 88 cradle got hung up in Chicago, and never made it off the truck. It will be at Archies tomorrow, and then they can start the mock-up. Its a day or two behind, but I know the crew at Archies will be working thier butts off. Long pole in the tent is getting the cradle modified, and then off to powdercoat. Once back, they will be cooking with gas and getting it all ready for me to show up. Still have lots of time, over 12 days, before i get there. If I have to push it a week, I can. I'd rather they get everything perfect then rush it. Making sure all the parts are order, and delivered is a hell of a task.
Looking good Archie. Glad the cradle made it today. I know the boys are working hard at getting it modified so it can get off to PC. I like the black trans. My colors are "Satin Black, Satin Green and aluminum". So the trans is going to look great.
I truly like the looks of the 87-88 base car with the fast back. What rear spoiler did you use? Do you have a close up picture of it? As far as a engine and trans. Go with the combo you want it is your car! That is what is so cool about Fieros you can do what you envision. I have been playing in my mind either a 2.5 hop up or a quad 4 that has been worked on. Or may be a 3.4 V6 without the dual overhead cams or maybe a 3800 SC. I really would love to have $$$ to develop a high torque 4 cyl diesel that would fly. But I am digressing.
I would like to see some pics of your rear spoiler. Please?
Steve W NE Grand Rapids, MI 88 Coupe
[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 10-30-2010).]
Thanks Steve. I agree, and have had a lot of positive feedback. I guess the "Haters" have all said thier piece and moved on. Good luck with your engine choice. Lots of motors to choose from and in the end, your right. Do what you want.
the link above has a few shots of the spoiler. I have to go back some day and glass it all in. I am going to glass in the Mustang scoop and the lip spoiler all at one time. Then repaint the trunk lid. Maybe next spring.
The spoiler is from the Fiero Warehouse http://www.fierowarehouse.com/ I have purchased a few items from them and they are all great quality, and priced right too.
Nope. Nothing yet. Cradle is out for Powdercoat. Motor/trans is waiting for it to come back. Not much to do now, but soon it will get busy. Don't worry, as soon as I have something, i'll post.
Do you custom make those mount brackets or are they off the shelf parts that you just weld on? Do you use any "standard" engine mounts? Looks great, I love the clean and shiny parts.
Also on the engine management what do you use to mate the Fiero electronics to the engine? Custom wire harness, etc. I am trying to determine how much is cutom vs I could buy from GM or from even one of your KITS?
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