Rob, this is Jack (and I speak for Joe also), nice meeting you yesterday at Archie's shop. Did you put the air intake and mass airflow sensor back to the original configuration? And let us know how the new flash on the ECM worked. Have a safe drive home.
15k is a better figure, but does it really matter that much? I mean if you really wanted to find out how much it would cost, you need to contact Archie for your own estimate. No two are the same because of different factors in each case.
Made it home. 19 hours of driving, I took a small nap about hour 10. Archie and his team would not let me leave until everything was fixed. Rob and Chris hunted around for the Trans leaks, and fixed them all. No more trans leaking. Yea. This thing is a beast. It sounds so good. When I was taking it off the trailer, a few of my neighboors came out to see what it was . Sounds like a freaking monster. I LOVE IT. Drove it around the block, and then tucked it away in the garage. I am just too damn tired to drive anymore. It drives like a totally differant car. Still have to get used to the trans shifting differant, and the clutch pick up point is way higher than Im used to. But thats ok.
thanks again Archie.
I'll have some additional pics and some video soon
15k is a better figure, but does it really matter that much? I mean if you really wanted to find out how much it would cost, you need to contact Archie for your own estimate. No two are the same because of different factors in each case.
Yep. No two are the same. when I was up at Archies, there were two other swaps going on. Between those two and mine, all three were differant. Its up to the owner. He gets to work with Archie and crew, to design a swap that fits you. Lots of little things can be done. I will never discuss money with anyone, its just none of thier business, but Mattwa your right, just call Archie, he'll work it all out with you.
Made it home. 19 hours of driving, I took a small nap about hour 10. Archie and his team would not let me leave until everything was fixed. Rob and Chris hunted around for the Trans leaks, and fixed them all. No more trans leaking. Yea. This thing is a beast. It sounds so good. When I was taking it off the trailer, a few of my neighboors came out to see what it was . Sounds like a freaking monster. I LOVE IT. Drove it around the block, and then tucked it away in the garage. I am just too damn tired to drive anymore. It drives like a totally differant car. Still have to get used to the trans shifting differant, and the clutch pick up point is way higher than Im used to. But thats ok.
thanks again Archie.
I'll have some additional pics and some video soon
Good night.
Rob
Glad you made it home safe Rob.
It was great hanging out with you for the week & as I told you when you left, you're welcome to come back & work for free anytime.
To everyone else I have a little apology.
Rob & I both said going into this last week that we would take lots of pics & some video. We got so busy on Thursday & Friday that we never really thought to take the pictures & video until after the car was on the trailer. We didn't even get the "Curley Pose" pictures & Friday it was sure cold enough for those pics.
We started on this swap on Monday morning & had it all put together & some test driving in by the end of the day Thursday. We had a bit of an idle problem with the ECM that came with the GM LS376/480 engine & harness. It would start but you had to play with the pedal for a minute or 2 before it would idle correctly. Once you had established idle, it drove great. We spent about 4 or 5 hours on Thursday trying to flog this item by changing & relocating some sensors to no avail. Rob had hoped to leave by Noon on Friday. Finally, I called the guy who wrote the program that's in Jim Albright's car (which runs great) & he's sending Rob another ECM with the same program.
I've used the GM LS3 with the GM harness a few times & it has worked correct from startup. However the LS376 engine with the GM harness has done this same thing twice to me. That's enough. from now on customers who want the LS376 will have to use the S&P harness & ECM if we build it in our shop.
On Friday we did some test driving with Data Logging for reference. After some test driving on Thursday, it was discovered that there was a leak on the Shift Shaft Seal (<~~ say that 3 times real fast) on the transmission that Rob had bought for this swap. There was also a leak on one of the axle shaft seals that we had put in the transmission. We replaced the axle shaft seal & that cured the leak there. We also discovered that the Vent on the transmission was plugged. After that vent was turned into a vent again, the leak on the Shift Shaft Seal had gone away. Now the pressure inside the transmission is not forcing anything out that seal.
Rob left about 1 pm on Friday.
We have to get Rob to take some pics & video as soon as he catches up on his sleep.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-21-2010).]
Great wrap up Archie. I'd love to come back and work, and free sounds great to me. You guys have a great shop up there. For those who have never made the trek to Archies you are missing out. I had no idea what I was getting into, but Archie, Rob and Chris have a hell of a professional shop going on. They can make and do anything. You can see it on their faces. Everytime they had a situation, they just talked it out, came up with a fix and then did it. Time and time again, Chris was making a small piece of this, or modifying that, to make it fit. The attention to detail is second to none. Where I would have used a "zip tie" they made a bracket, where I would have just excepted good enough, they went above and beyond. And after driving in Archies LS3 Solstice, I may be back soon.
Congrats, Rob! Good show, Arch! I have been following this from the beginning. Looks great! Thanks for the pics that were provided. (I can appreciate that the excitement of getting it all together would make taking more pics a lesser priority.)
Having said all that...
Vids?
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-21-2010).]
Glad you made it back OK and the trans issues are solved - I know how bad it sux when you have to pull a freshly installed motor to chase a technical issue (remember my 383 stroker with balance issues?). If you have a decent video camera, bring the car over my way and we'll take turns shooting both cars on some nice deserted country roads where the sound will come through great and you can wind em out!
I wanted to post a note to clear up some bad info over at RFT. Shawn only posts what he wants, and never uses the truth. I have the emails to prove it. And I know he won't post this over there, because it will show how much of a ***hole he is.
The Getrag trans that i put in the car was bought by me from a member here. The member claimed that it was a rebuilt 94 Getrag with a EP-LSD. Since I was looking at sending my 89 Getrag off to Jeff and having him do the same thing, I decided to buy it from him vice sending mine off. Archie did not rebuild it. Archie warned me about using the "used" trans on the car. And for the record, it does not leak anymore. Archie would not let me leave the shop until the leak was fixed which took a few hours. Turns out one of the axle bearing seals was bad.
As for the idle. Archie, had warned me that the last two LS376 swaps done with the Stock GM harness and ECM both had issues with the idle. Upon startup, he diagnosed the same thing, made a few phone calls, emails and in the end decided to get a new ECM sent with a new tune. This new tune had fixed both the other cars and in the end fixed mine too. Archie has made a decision to tell all future customers that do this swap that they have to use the Street and Performance ECM/Tune to get it right the first time.
Archie did not want to let the car go without more miles, tuning and a perfect idle, but I had to go. I had driven up, stayed for 5 days and had to get on the road to return to the east coast. If he and his shop had one more day, they would have gotten the car running 100%, but I made the decision to leave with it at only 99%.
IT WAS MY CALL, NOT ARCHIES. And being that he is a stand up guy, he took care of me.
On Wednesday I got in the new "ECM", pulled the old one, put in the new one and it started up fine. Idles smooth and has NO ISSUES. I drove it around for about 15-20 miles and it drives great. Since the motor / clutch only have about 60 miles on them, I plan to drive it over the next few weekends and put about 500 miles on it before I take it to the dyno. I have a shop about a mile from my house and I have three dyno pulls on credit. It may take a few months to get the miles on the motor because it rains a lot here durring winter. But next spring/summer/fall this car will get driven.
In the end I freaking love this car. It is stupid fast, way faster than any car should be. First gear is a joke, second push's you into the seat and the shift to third is awesome. I don't even use 4th gear, and go from 3rd to 5th. Im already on the brakes to get back down to the speed limit.
Is it worth it. I say yes, my wife says no, but thats my problem. Should anyone put this kind of money into a Fiero. You decide.
Originally posted by qwikgta: On Wednesday I got in the new "ECM", pulled the old one, put in the new one and it started up fine. Idles smooth and has NO ISSUES. I drove it around for about 15-20 miles and it drives great. Since the motor / clutch only have about 60 miles on them, I plan to drive it over the next few weekends and put about 500 miles on it before I take it to the dyno. I have a shop about a mile from my house and I have three dyno pulls on credit. It may take a few months to get the miles on the motor because it rains a lot here durring winter. But next spring/summer/fall this car will get driven.
Bring it over to this side and rack up a quick 100 miles, since it's about 30 each way, and it's easy to put on miles without realizing it in the 757, since everything is so spread out.
Archie did not want to let the car go without more miles, tuning and a perfect idle, but I had to go. I had driven up, stayed for 5 days and had to get on the road to return to the east coast. If he and his shop had one more day, they would have gotten the car running 100%, but I made the decision to leave with it at only 99%.
IT WAS MY CALL, NOT ARCHIES. And being that he is a stand up guy, he took care of me.
On Wednesday I got in the new "ECM", pulled the old one, put in the new one and it started up fine. Idles smooth and has NO ISSUES. I drove it around for about 15-20 miles and it drives great. Since the motor / clutch only have about 60 miles on them, I plan to drive it over the next few weekends and put about 500 miles on it before I take it to the dyno. I have a shop about a mile from my house and I have three dyno pulls on credit. It may take a few months to get the miles on the motor because it rains a lot here durring winter. But next spring/summer/fall this car will get driven.
I think we're going to age Archie, Chris, & Rob with the stress of these 5 day LS swaps! In a perfect world, there would be a couple extra days to log some break in miles, but with hard deadlines you just have to go with what you have when the buzzer sounds. Now we just have to get Bob up there for the triple play
Maybe my choice of words was off. The ECM that GM sent did not work. For what ever the reason, it would not hold a idle. It drove great, but if you were not paying attention, it would stall. We thought it may be an issue with the MAF sensor and where it was placed in the air stream, but in the end it was not. To get into the ECM you need somekind of software or scanner. As I understand it, GM dealers have access to it, but the average guy does not. I have a "Corvette" tuner shop about a mile from my house, and I know that they have the machine/personnel to tune the LS3. They do it all the time. When we got the car done, and the only thing that was not 100% was the idle, I told Archie, id bring it to the shop near my house. Archie told me that he could get in the new ECM with the correct tune in a day, and I told him to have it sent to my house. With in a few days the new "tuned" ECM was at my house, I put it in and it runs great. I don't have to go visit the shop near my house. So no additional money was spent on the issue. It is now exactly how it would have been had I had two more days at archies.
For those who don't know, Rob and Chris only had 5 days to get this done. I can't believe how much crap people are giving them for doing a full engine pull, full engine install, up and running in 5 days. And this is not a hack job, the engine compartment is "show ready". I have seen some 5 day hack jobs on here and the motor looks like $hit. Not the case here. The attention to detail is increadable.
Again, I had to get back to Virginia and only had the the Truck/Trailer for 7 days. Most everyone else leaves the car with them, they get to spend about 3 weeks doing the swap, getting it tuned, logging miles. We just didn't have the time here.
Ehhh, probably not the best choice of words either. I know 6 guys locally who specifically tune their LS PCM's on the fly with laptops.
It does not matter what I type, the Archies haters are going to take what I type out of context and twist it to their needs (not saying your one L67), Im done with it. I attempted to have a build thread and no matter what I do I keep digging myself deeper into the $hit hole. Yea, I know a few guys who live in Virginia Beach, who have LS1 and LS2 GTO's who can tune thier cars too. They have HPtuners and have been through class's to do it. I was under the impression that the newer LS3 and LS376 could not use the same software, and that GM had it "locked down". I'd love to buy the software/hardware and learn how to tune it, but my understanding is that its expensive and you can screw it up, real easy. So that may not happen.
I don't really see what the big deal is, and I still don't get all the negitive stuff on this forum. We all love Fiero's. And it would be boring if we all did the same thing all the time.
I apoligize to Archie, Rob and Chris for continuing to give people ammunition to use against them. Those who have dealt with Archie and his shop know they are stand up guys.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 11-29-2010).]
Archie has dealt with haters since day one. They will always be there. In the end though, he built a successful business from the ground up that has been running, what, 20+ years now! That's impressive, I don't care if it's a business selling rubber nipples door to door, it's damn impressive! What do these haters have to show for their lives? I have dealt with Archie several times now (and a couple more if he checks his PM's ). He is a stand up businessman that takes care of his customers and knows his product like no other. If he tells you something, re: price, delivery date, etc. it's as good as done! As a customer, what more could you ask for in a vendor? There is a reason he has a very high repeat customer rate.
Love the build by the way! Are you going to do any paint or keep it OD? I've always liked the fastback coupe look, especially without the factory spoiler.
My $.02, ~Tyler
Edit: Don't let that be you're last post. You have an awesome thread that many people are enjoying. Don't let a few envious turds ruin it for the rest of us. Just ignore them. ------------------
quote
Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?
[This message has been edited by GT-X (edited 11-29-2010).]
Originally posted by L67: Ehhh, probably not the best choice of words either. I know 6 guys locally who specifically tune their LS PCM's on the fly with laptops.
But a fully licensed Tech II does a lot more than the reverse engineered HP Tuners, also. However, none of that is probably relevant in solving the problem with the tune that GMPP delivers with the LS376 ECM. Or perhaps it was that the ECM still had the LS3 tune and the different cam caused the idle issues. Either way, doesn't really matter. Having an ECM delivered to your door for free, is a lot better than buying any tuning software or device, and having to start solving the problem from scratch, when it's already been solved by someone else.
Originally posted by qwikgta: They have HPtuners and have been through class's to do it. I was under the impression that the newer LS3 and LS376 could not use the same software, and that GM had it "locked down". I'd love to buy the software/hardware and learn how to tune it, but my understanding is that its expensive and you can screw it up, real easy. So that may not happen.
AFAIK, HP Tuners will work fine with the LS3 program. It works fine with other e67 based programs, and the LS3 program is only slightly different from the LS2 program, so should work fine. However, yes; it is somewhat expensive, and you can screw something up really easily.
But a fully licensed Tech II does a lot more than the reverse engineered HP Tuners, also. However, none of that is probably relevant in solving the problem with the tune that GMPP delivers with the LS376 ECM. Or perhaps it was that the ECM still had the LS3 tune and the different cam caused the idle issues. Either way, doesn't really matter. Having an ECM delivered to your door for free, is a lot better than buying any tuning software or device, and having to start solving the problem from scratch, when it's already been solved by someone else.
Rodney, the ECM was for the LS376 and had "LS376" on the back. We tried a "LS3" ECM and there was no change. The new one that was sent to me says "LS7" on the back, not that it matters. As I understand it, the program was wiped, and a new one installed. As I stated a few posts ago, this was/is the third LS376 that Archie installed in a Fiero with the GM ECM and harness. And the third one that did not idle. I don't know why, but I know that the new ECM works fine. Starts up, idles great and runs strong. As far as im concerned, in the end, I got what I paid for. And im happy with it. If i ever needed another LSX Fiero, i'd go back to Archie in a minute, and I look forward to Bob going in the spring.
Originally posted by qwikgta: Rodney, the ECM was for the LS376 and had "LS376" on the back. We tried a "LS3" ECM and there was no change. The new one that was sent to me says "LS7" on the back, not that it matters. As I understand it, the program was wiped, and a new one installed. As I stated a few posts ago, this was/is the third LS376 that Archie installed in a Fiero with the GM ECM and harness. And the third one that did not idle. I don't know why, but I know that the new ECM works fine. Starts up, idles great and runs strong. As far as im concerned, in the end, I got what I paid for. And im happy with it. If i ever needed another LSX Fiero, i'd go back to Archie in a minute, and I look forward to Bob going in the spring.
Right. It may be that some (or even all) of the LS376 ECMs getting shipped from whichever GMPP dealer it came from, are actually leaving with the LS3 tune still on the ECM, as opposed to them being flashed with a tune for the LS376. I'm not sure why either. Just a thought, given it's been a recurring problem.
Right. It may be that some (or even all) of the LS376 ECMs getting shipped from whichever GMPP dealer it came from, are actually leaving with the LS3 tune still on the ECM, as opposed to them being flashed with a tune for the LS376. I'm not sure why either. Just a thought, given it's been a recurring problem.
Rather than speculating, why not look it up. Go to http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ & Search for LS3. You'll find that the operating systems for the LS376 & LS3 use different ECM Controllers.
These controllers are different items between the 2 engines. They are produced & programmed by GMPP & NOT by the individual dealer.
What we have found is that the system for the LS3 works fine right from the startup. But with identical CAI's & exhaust systems the GM LS376 system has an idle issue as described earlier.
The GMPP systems for the LS3 & LS376 are not the only control systems that can be used on the engines. Several aftermarket suppliers also offer wire harnesses & reprogrammed ECMs that can run the LS3 & LS376 engines. Those systems are more expensive than the GM systems. The GM systems do not support cruise control, so I advise anyone wanting cruise control on an LS3 or LS376 not to use the GM system.
We did an LS376 for Jim88GT earlier this year. He wanted to have operable cruise control on his car so we used a Street & Performance wire harness & ECM & that car ran perfect out of the box.
When we had the issue with Ron's car I called the S&P people & had them program another ECM with the same program as Jim's car had on it. I've been using Street & Performance stuff for 18 years now & when I asked them to get this done ASAP, they pulled an ECM that was going to be used for an LS7 & put in the same programming that was in Jim's car. They did it in a hurry for me & they didn't bother to remove the LS7 marking they had put on the ECM.
I've been doing this for a lot of years & I have many long term suppliers who would bend over backwards to get me the stuff I need when I need it even though they didn't originally supply the parts I was trying to fix.
Someone asked me the other day why I don't post build threads like I used to. The main reason is that I get tired of the crap after a while. Over the years, I've built over 500 V-8 Fieros & sold at least 2000 kits. Yet there's one idle issue that has been under control from the git-go & there's a pocket full of EXPERTS trying to tell us how it should be done.
qwikgta started this thread as a nice build thread. He stated in his 1st post what transmission he was using negative comments about his choice. Yet people gave him just that for many posts. Why can't Fiero people just show fellow Fiero people a little respect?
It's just getting old.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-29-2010).]
Originally posted by Archie: Rather than speculating, why not look it up. Go to http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ & Search for LS3. You'll find that the operating systems for the LS376 & LS3 use different ECM Controllers.
These controllers are different items between the 2 engines. They are produced & programmed by GMPP & NOT by the individual dealer.
That doesn't exactly answer what the real problem was. The ECM hardware is exactly the same for either the LS3, LS376, or LS7. The only difference is in the programming, and what the harness connections provides. I guess GMPP is screwing something up pretty bad with their LS376 ECM then.
That doesn't exactly answer what the real problem was. The ECM hardware is exactly the same for either the LS3, LS376, or LS7. The only difference is in the programming, and what the harness connections provides. I guess GMPP is screwing something up pretty bad with their LS376 ECM then.
It never ends.
I don't know if I actually owe you an answer to what the real problem was, I've told you the solution.
My post answered your quote that was included with my answer.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-29-2010).]
I don't normally get into build threads as much as I have this one. I have really enjoyed reading this.
I would absolutely love if you posted a video of this car running. I would love to hear what it sounds like.
Thanks for posting this thread.
Yep. This is my next goal. I get home after dark, so I have to wait until Saturday to do this. I will get one on here. I don't have any new pics. Most are the same old shot, from differant angles. But I will get the video link up this weekend.
Thanks again for all the positive feedback. I really wish you all had a chance to do this. For those who like watching "overhauling" or any of the other "car build" shows on TV, this was a dream. I got to be involved in pulling my old motor, putting in the new one and giving Rob and Chris my .02 cents. As Rob and Chris needed to do something they asked if I wanted it this way, or that. It was great.
Like Archie said, hundreds of swaps later, and we are dwelling on an idle issue that was solved.
That doesn't exactly answer what the real problem was. The ECM hardware is exactly the same for either the LS3, LS376, or LS7. The only difference is in the programming, and what the harness connections provides. I guess GMPP is screwing something up pretty bad with their LS376 ECM then.
Rodney. its not clear what the problem is. It could be that the engine is ment to be installed into a car that would not have the issue, maybe its a bug in the software. I know for a fact that it was installed correctly. I know that the correct part numbers were ordered and delivered. And installed on the car. Why it would not idle is beyond me. The fact that a "known" good tune was loaded to a GM ECM and put on the car and now it runs fine is another.
). He is a stand up businessman that takes care of his customers and knows his product like no other. If he tells you something, re: price, delivery date, etc. it's as good as done! As a customer, what more could you ask for in a vendor? There is a reason he has a very high repeat customer rate.
please?
