.. I would see all of these engines being rebuilt, and installed into cars, and just imagine what it would be like to have an engine that looked like that in my car! I know it sounds kinda crazy, but it was something that just seemed beyond a normal persons means doing something like that...
That is the easy part. The hard part is keeping it looking like that over time.
Last night, I re-assembled the Throttle body, putting all the sensors, springs, butterfly and such back together. Today, after work I installed the throttle body adapter. I had to Google some pictures, as I was not sure 100% how it went. It came with a gasket, and a tube of silicone.
The gasket goes between the adapter plate and the throttle body, and the silicone between the intake and the adapter plate.
Next I installed the newly assembled throttle body to the adapter plate:
I also put on the new oil pan and gasket:
All installed and good to go:
Now, on a last note, there is a sensor in the oil pan, that I probably for low oil indicator. The end that goes inside the pan has a piece of plastic on the end that is loose. I can not tell if it is supposed to be like that or not from examining it.
The piece that is loose, and wobbles around is highlighted in yellow:
Can anyone tell me if that is normal, or do I need a new sensor?
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 04-11-2016).]
It is normal, but even if it was broken, don't worry about it. You are correct that it is the oil level sensor, but unless you plan on installing the DIS from a donor car, the sensor is useless to you. It would probably throw an OBD code if you were really interested, but the harness builders I have talked to say they usually don't even wire for the harness and tune the code out of the PCM.
Originally posted by tshark: What is that behind the sensor, with all the scratches?
That is the old oil pan. It was pretty dented and banged up, so I just went ahead and bought a new one to replace it. It did not appear to be hitting the cam shaft, but I did not want to take any chances.
As a teenager, I hit something and dented up the oil pan on my mothers car. The cam shaft was hitting it, and shortly rubbed a hole in the pan and all of the oil drained out. Luckily my father was a mechanic, and ingrained in me that if the coolant light or the oil light EVER came on, to pull over safely & immediately to investigate. That life lesson pretty much saved the engine in Mom's Buick
Life stuff has been happening (Small vacation, death in the family, over time), and I have not been working on the engine over the past few weeks.
I did get a couple things taken care of off of the "3800 List" I received the Stainless Steel quick disconnect fuel lines from MRose (His sale thread here). Very nice!:
I also received a message from MstangsBware / Stephen Poe, (Contact Thread / Post) and he is almost done with my passenger side axle. He says he just wants to clean it up a bit before shipping it.
Building it all up:
Completed and ready to ship:
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 05-04-2016).]
I had a new neighbor move in a couple months back, and a few days ago we got to talking. He, it turns out, is a mechanic. I brought him over to show him the car, and th3 3800SC I have been building. He speaks broken English by the way.... he looks at the engine, at the car, and back at the engine.... looks at me and says it does not come from factory with this. I giggle and nod and before I can say anything, he tells me the wiring harness will not work, and will need a special one with a programmed computer. I show both to him. He says the motor mounts will not work, again, show him the new motor mounts. Then he says he does not think the axle will work on the passenger side. I show him the one that Mustangsbeware made for me. This goes on for some time, and he really seems to know his stuff.
I tell him that I would like him to take out the old engine, and install the new one. He says he will get back to me.
Today he stops me when I get home from work, and says he can take the ole one out, put the new one in, and finish so I just turn the key and go, $700. I say DEAL! Then, here comes the part that caught me off guard.... he says I will take the engine out minyana. Tomorrow???? He says yes. this seriously pushes up my time line! I have 95% of the parts, but am scrambling to get the last pieces. The A/C lines from Chuck in Orlando, get a new A/C compressor ordered, plugs, wires, oil filter, oil, coolant..... and tons of other stuff I am sure I am forgetting.
We agreed, he will get the engine out, then I will have as much time as I need to get the engine completed, and the engine bay cleaned up and such before he outs the 3800 in.
I have never moved quite so quickly on something before.... Oh, I just removed my new GT tail lights and placed them in the spare bedroom wrapped in a down comforter
So I am sure there will be tons of photo's forthcoming.......
Well, the swap is underway! In a matter of 5 hours we had the 2.8 out and started to attach the FieroFlyer wiring harness to the 3800. I have a laundry list of items to locate and purchase tonight. I will do most of what I can through Amazon, as their prices are usually better on 90% of any car parts I have ever purchases, as well as I get free 2 day shipping
Tonight's List of parts to order:
Belts
Spark Plugs
Spark Plug Wires
Fuel injector rebuild kit
Thermostat and gasket
Oil filter adapter gasket
Oil filter/oil (Probably get lcoally)
temperature sensor
Cam sensor
Temperature sensor
PCV valve
Engine out, YES!
Starting to hook up the wiring harness. It looks like the wrong plug was attached to the harness for the IAC, but I do have the correct plug off the original 3800 harness. I just need to figure out how to make sure the wires are hooked to the plug with the correct polarity, as the wires are different colors.
Originally posted by Alex4mula: Good to know that you found a mechanic to put it in. Got the exhaust covered already?
Yea, me too! No, the exhaust is the last large piece of the puzzle. I do however have the photo's of the one you showed me to work from. I have all the elbow's and pipes bookmarked. I am waiting on a part number for the muffler, from a Camaro I think from Olejoedad.
Yea, me too! No, the exhaust is the last large piece of the puzzle. I do however have the photo's of the one you showed me to work from. I have all the elbow's and pipes bookmarked. I am waiting on a part number for the muffler, from a Camaro I think from Olejoedad.
Originally posted by Alex4mula: So which muffler you will use? (brand)
I am going to use...... who am I kidding, I do not have a clue yet
I know I want it as quiet as possible. It seems with the layout options available, there is absolutely no way to make it really quiet. So no matter how quiet I do make it, it will still have enough rumble I am sure On your advice, I am going to wrap the muffler for that added reduction of the noise / resonance. I am still completely open to suggestions for the quietest muffler out there, with the single input on the top, and 2 outputs on the bottom of the muffler as shown in the photo below.
I was wondering if I extend the gray wrapped bend, so it extends all the way to the left tail pipe (Picture that 180 bend being right behind the left exhaust tips), if I would have the ability to put a small CAT inline to dampen the noise a tiny bit further. Is there anything that would prevent this, the cradle ect in doing so?
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 05-14-2016).]
It should, it's yours Did you find the part number for that muffler yet by chance? Alex had sent me a very similar picture and I posted it. You saw it, and suggested the one above. It is very similar, but a little bit simpler to make (Total of 6 welds / connections). Alex's has both outputs on the same side, adding a little more height to the setup, as well as adding more bends and such to make it (16 welds / connections).
Here is Alex's setup: Do NOT get me wrong, it is an excellent setup, however the one above is a bit easier to make:
Still wondering if I can extend the pipe to fit a small CAT inline, like I mentioned 2 posts back.....
It should, it's yours Did you find the part number for that muffler yet by chance? .....
I think you missed my reply on previous page. See below. Trust me. Nothing will sound like this Magnaflow. But I understand your point. Exhaust is a very personal but critical part of a car. On a custom one like this it is more critical as it is something that you cannot change cheaply or quickly. Knowing how detailed you are, If I were you I would try to listen to both setups and then decide. Just a recommendation Oh, and there's no space there for a CAT.
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:
Found a gem for you. Couple videos too. Look here: Magnaflow 14277 install in a 3800sc by Alex4mula
I am loving this whole mail delivery from Amazon on Sundays thing! I ordered stuff Friday night, and most of it got here this morning. The rest will be here tomorrow.
I have been keeping track of what this swap is costing. There are certainly a lot of things on my list that others would not need to purchase, and other things that you need that are not on this list. It is a rough idea though, for price, as well as where the parts were obtained from for someone preparing to do an engine swap.
Originally posted by RCR: Here's the exhaust/muffler info, should be the same as above. The muffler is a Magnaflow for the 3'rd/4'th gen F-body (camaro/firebird) http://www.magnaflow.com/products?partNumber=12267
That's what I needed, thanks! The muffler is on the way. $123 from Amazon, will be here with free 2 day Shipping on Tuesday.
Originally posted by Alex4mula: I think you missed my reply on previous page.
Oh, and there's no space there for a CAT.
Yes, I did somehow miss your post on the last page entirely. Some good info there, and it sounds really good!
I was not getting any input here on adding a CAT to the setup, so I created a new thread in tech. I figure a LOT more people will be looking there than on page 16 of my build thread
A bit more work, and a step closer to getting the engine in the car. Got the fuel injectors / rail all assembled, valve covers tightened, vacuum lines run, wiring harness 80% in place, just need to finish a few more routing issues, then tidy it all up. The belt I purchased for the lower alternator, is a tad bit too long, and the stock Super Charger belt is WAY to long.... not sure what happened there....
Here is where it sat this evening, other than the headers on bolted on as well:
I replied to your picture in my build thread, but post it here too.
1. You should consider ditching the extension for the oil filler cap. It serves no practical purpose and was deleted in the recall on these engines.
2. Your valve covers are mounted on backwards. The factory configuration you have them in puts the oil filler against the Fiero firewall and will make changing the oil a major pain in the ass. You should swap them around.
I already ditched the oil extension filler neck, it is not in any of the more recent photos.
I decided to keep the "solid blue" valve cover towards the rear of the car. The front valve cover is just about the first thing you see when you open the deck-lid, and wanted to keep it clean and as uncluttered as possible. Yes, it is a little bit of a reach getting to the oil cap near the firewall, but something that is very easily done. When oil is required, I have an abundance of funnels that will aid in adding oil with no problem at all.
I had a few people suggest that it should be moved around, and one person tell me I would not be able to do it this way period. That I had to have the oil cap on the "front" valve cover or I would never be able to change the oil.
Here are a few examples showing that it most certainly be done this way, without issue (Re-posted from the bottom of the previous page of this thread):
That's fine, so long as it's something you decided to do. I was hoping to prevent an "aaahhhh damnit" moment later down the road when things aren't so easy to reverse.
Our cars look alike, and now our threads are starting to look alike...
Today, I started by hopping into the engine compartment, and scrubbing and sanding. A few hours later, a coat of black base coat, and 15 minutes later a couple coats of clear. The engine bay is no where as good as it was when new, but it is good enough for me:
After the engine bay, i moved on to getting the engine cradle cleaned up and painted. After closer inspection, the cradle had quite a bit of rust in the typical "under the battery" location.
Talking with the mechanic, he happened to mention that he knew how to weld It was off to Home Depot, to find something made out of steel.... what exactly, who knew! After going in circles in the store, over by the lumber department there was an end-cap with all sorts of metal brackets. I picked up a few, and then it was off to The part store, to get the correct belt size for the engine...they say the third time is the charm! Then off to Harbor Freight to pick up a cheap welder, It came to someting like $85 out the door.
Back at the house, the brackets from Home Depot turned out to be the same exact thickness as the original cradle, down to the fraction of a millimeter. Clamped one in place and began trimming it:
The welded it up a bit. I even got to take a try at welding. Not too bad for my first time I don't think!
After some hammering, grinding and cleaning it up a little bit, here are the results:
We are, by NO means going to win any welding awards! But I am quite happy with it. I will get it primed good inside and out tomorrow, and slap a few coats of paint on it.
Meanwhile, we also fabricated up a pretty cool mount for the coil packs. It is attached to FieroRog dog bone adapter, and angled over the top of the rear facing valve cover. Personally, I like the look of the coil packs, and when I do the blue custom plug wires, and rout them neatly, I think it will look very nice. I didn't get a picture of this today it seems, so will post some pictures tomorrow.
If that were not enough for the day, the rest of the wiring harness was all butted up, and routed. New sensors and such installed. I also caped off the extra water line hose in the water pump.
Still not enough? Ok, it was then time to get the engine off of the engine stand, and onto the transmission where it belongs!
seriously.... still not enough for one day? Ok then... Managed to get the headers and cross over pipe all bolted up, and new O2 sensor installed.
Still not enough, too bad, go read someone else s build thread! ! !
I am starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel here... it's kinda dim, but I can start to just make it out
Ok, here are the photos of the coil bracket I fabricated. It is basic for sure, but serves it's function well, and was very simple to make!
I started roaming the isles of Home Depot looking for something steel.... I finally came across this "tie plate":
I bought two of them, and put them together, as a single one was a bit too thin and flimsy. I gave it a 90 degree bend, and marked and drilled a few holes in the plates to mount the coil pack mounting bracket onto it. 2 more holes were drilled to mount it to the Fierorog dog bone mount: Bottom View:
Top View: Here it is mounted into the 2 bolts on the FieroRog dog bone mount:
Lastly, here it is with the coil packs set on the bracket. I moved it all around so the coil wires will come up from the bottom, the way one of the packs is sitting in the photo:
I will be taking it back off, and painting it all up, of course When I get the plug wires made, I will post some pictures with everything in place.
On a final note for the day, the cradle is all primed, painted and cleared. The section of plate that we welded in looks great!:
If I would have had all the parts, I think the engine could have been in the car already honestly. I am waiting on the factory rubber engine and transmission mounts, new tire rod ends, tie rods, and struts. I usually think of everything ahead of time, but I totally forgot to get all of that stuff. Thank God for Amazon prime and free 2 day shipping. Everything should be here by Friday, including the A/C lines from Chuck in Orlando.
If everything falls into place, the engine should be in the car this weekend. Maybe not derivable without tweaking and what all needs to be done, but with all 4 wheels on the ground at least..... hopefully!
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 05-24-2016).]
Ok, here are the photos of the coil bracket I fabricated. It is basic for sure, but serves it's function well, and was very simple to make! .. ..
Please do not take this the wrong way. But you will have all the trouble to fill the oil in the firewall so that the oil cap is not on the front and all is clean and now you put the coils right there? Why not in the same place but on the rear head (closer to firewall)? Or near battery? Did you relocate the battery? Just saying.
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 05-25-2016).]
As I mentioned above, I actually like the look of the coil packs when the wires are run properly and neatly it gives a nice finished look in my opinion, of course that's my personal taste.
As for filling the oil, doesn't anyone else on this forum own a funnel besides me? :-)
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 05-25-2016).]
As I mentioned above, I actually like the look of the coil packs when the wires are run properly and neatly it gives a nice finished look in my opinion, of course that's my personal taste.
As for filling the oil, doesn't anyone else on this forum own a funnel besides me? :-)
Originally posted by Alex4mula: Cool. I get it. Are you going to use stock coils?
For now the stock coils are gonna be used. As I get the engine running, I may upgrade the coils.
Tonight, the engine met the cradle! They absolutely did not like each other at first. In all honestly, and full disclosure, there was a lot of fighting. After a little mediation, I was able to get them to see eye to eye, it just was not easy!
For anyone doing this, the transmission mount is a "B"ad word! The only way we could possibly get it to go was to attach the cradle side of the mount first, then mount the second piece of the mount to it, and tighten. I had to drill a second hole in the cradle for the mount. Next....move around, contort and twist the cradle to get one of the 3 transmission side holes to line up, and squeezes a couple fingers in there to get the first of 3 (4 on some transmissions) bolts to start. Then, twist and repeat for the other 2 bolts. There is NOT a lot of room to work there!
Now I am waiting on more parts.........
The left caliper seemed to be leaking, and the right was wearing the brake pads unevenly. Thus, 2 new rear calipers are on the way. Also, the ball joints in the back, one of the rubber seals was shot, and the other was pretty bad, thus new ball joints. Next, just to finish it off right, 2 new tie rod ends are on the way to complete the rear suspension.
Monday being a holiday, Amazon free 2 day shipping will not be here until Tuesday of next week
Wow.... another 16~17 hour day! Started at 6:30 am going to work, then home at 4 Pm, and working on the car till an hour ago.....
I was hoping to have the engine in the car this weekend, but it does not look like that is going to happen...... as the engine was put in the car this evening! ! ! Finally!
Here is the moment of anticipation:
And finally, the engine in the car:
I am waiting on lower ball joints, tie rod ends, and new left and right calipers. Soon as that is all here, I can get the suspension all together, and put the car back down on the ground.
I installed the new struts already, and painted everything up nice and pretty.
I would liked to have done the springs in blue, but I liked the idea of getting the car done and back together even more
I am going to go jump in the shower, go to bed and sleep till probably at least 10am tomorrow!
[EDIT] That estimate was just about right, I just got up 15 minutes ago, and it is now 10:30am.
One problem we ran into was the A/C lines. I ordered a set from Chuck, in Central Florida. When they came yesterday, they did not fit for some reason. Talking to Chuck on the phone, and sending pictures back and forth, it was clear that the compressor on the 04 Grand Prix is quite different. When the compressor is mounted, the 2 holes in the rear are vertical to each other. ALL other compressors for Series II and III that he has seen are horizontal. Also, the holes are 1.5" from center to center, as where ALL the other 3800 A/C compressors are an inch and 5/8 ths. Chuck's remedy was to head to the junk yard, and call me first thing this morning. He confirmed on an 04 Grtand Prix, that the compressor is indeed quite different, and now he understands what the problem is. He is removing the lines, and making me up a new set of A/C lines.
While I type this, he just sent me a photo from the junk yard for comparison:
That looks like it will do the trick! Today, run all the wires to where they go, and maybe get the gas tank dropped and the new fuel pump installed........
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 05-28-2016).]
JohnWPB can you please sent me my stickers, I'm waiting since April 27 for an answer.
How many answers do you want? I told you you peeled the clear laminate off of the top, and not the backing. This unfortunately ruined the stickers. I then told you I would send you replacements free of charge, including the international postage. You will have them shortly. What more answers are you waiting for? And please, this is a build thread, please respect that.
My car has reared it's ugly head yet again........
Everything is connected, and when the key is turned to the on position, the tach bumps, check engine and other lights come on.... all seems well.
When I turn the key to the Start position, nothing happens. Jumping the terminals directly on the starter, engage it, however the engine will not crank over. Turning the engine with the cam bolt and a wrench does work, but I always thought it felt a little stiff to me.. The mechanic says it seems normal to him. Off to get a new battery, and they tested and said it is in excellent condition, and fully charged.
Next, I went and had the starter tested, and it came up as "FAILED" at Autozone. So I purchased a new one, came home and put the battery back in, and hooked up the new starter. Still refuses to turn over the engine when manually jumping it. The mechanic kept trying to get it to turn over by jumping the terminals on the starter, and it was then that I noticed smoke coming from the 20 or so wire bundle that plug into the coil pack. Why the hell would it be getting power from jumping the starter?
FAR more questions than answers at this point, and not sure where to even think about doing next......
Pete, thanks for the offer! I still to have to figure a time for you to swing by sometime!
Ok, the swap took a turn for the good for once today. Let me say that again, so I can let it sink in, something went good, and turned out right today.... I type it, but still have trouble beleiving it
Laying in bed last night, and trying to figure out why when turning the key to the start position, nothing was happening.... everything else seemed Ok with the wiring...... Then BAM! It hit me! That EUREKA moment.... Neutral safety switch?..... could it be that easy? Soon as I got up this morning, I ran out and moved the shift selector on the transmission all the way to the end. I reached in and went to crank it.... nothing I went and moved the selector on the transmission all the way to the other end, and tried the key again, CLICK! I could hear the solenoid click! WooHoo! Stupid overlooked mistake by the mechanic and myself yesterday in all the turmoil of trying to get things hooked up and checked.
The starter still would not turn over the engine.... so still had to figure that out. We ran a ground cable directly from the battery to the starter, and sure enough, the car cranked over when I turned the key. HOW I have no clue.... there is a ground going directly from the battery to the engine block. a SOLID big bolt, and NO paint interfering. Another ground going from the battery directly to the chassis, again nice clean contact, stripped of all paint. This somehow was not enough, so we ran another ground cable from the battery, to the engine cradle. Got everything all bolted up and tucked away, and the engine now cranks over as it should when the key is turned!
As of not the tank is out, and pretty rusted on the inside. I am going to wasy it out with CLR, and an acid bath tomorrow, and let it dry till Wednesday, when my 2 cans of POR-15 in tank sealant arrives. I will pour it in, swirl the tank around every which way to coat everything and let it dry.
I have a new fuel pump for a Chevy Silvarado 5.8l as recommended for the 3800 install, and new Fiero Store Sending unit for in the tank, that will HOPEFULLY finally fix my gas gauge not working!
Anyhow, no gas tank in the car, the next best thing was to spray some gas in the intake. As the mechanic did this, I cranked the key, and sure enough it started! He was able to squirt in fuel enough to keep it running for about 10 seconds. Noo too exciting, but some smoke from oil and stuff burning off the manifold:
This actually says a LOT! The computer is working, Spark plug wires are routed correctly, the coils are good. Oh.... and it was LOUD! Straight off the manifold, no pipe or muffler connected loud
I received the Stainless Steel quick disconnect fuel lines from MRose (
