I stopped by my dad's office today on my lunch break and left GFC open on his browser. When he got home, he asked me if I had seen the aluminum fuel tank that someone fabricated.
He was very impressed, and so am I! Way to put forth effort to create something awesome for the Fiero community.
Thanks guys, I had the idea to do this about 9 months ago when I found out my tank was toast. It just so happened that I had a friend who makes tanks, and I ran the idea by him. He said to bring a stock tank by for measurement, 8 months later I actually did, after collecting some other measurements from the car, he had the tank done in a matter of a couple days. I have seen his work so I knew what to expect as far as the quality of tank I was getting and we discussed offering these to the community.
He had no idea there was a demand at all for these. I told him he may not sell a ton of them but they are custom made so they will be built to order. Even if he only sells a half dozen that is still better than nothing to him. We discussed pricing last night and he didnt give me an actual answer yet but I do know it will be reasonable.
Poll: How many would like a tank like mine that requires possibly making a different way to secure the tank, but has a larger capacity? And how many would prefer a tank that only requires lengthening your current straps to make it fit, the drawback here is losing the width we have with my tank which means less capacity?
-Joe
[This message has been edited by joesfiero (edited 03-18-2011).]
with my ecotec ,i dont have the cat in the space behind the tank .i would like a tank like yours but extend it in to that empty space if possible .if not ,i would like one just yours without any holes drilled .i will figure my own mounts .
Theres really no room behind the tank to move, you have the filler and vent tubes as well as the lines back there, plus the frame of the car is in the way of moving rear ward.
For a tank like mine, there are no holes drilled anyway except for the level sender. Mounting is done with straps that dont attach to the tank itself.
You already know that I'm interested in the revised version.
I would like to wait and see how Pauls points are addressed though...
quote
Originally posted by paulmckibben:
How do you handle the potential for galvanic corrosion due to the electrochemically dissimilar metals in contact (aluminum tank contacting steel used in the car body, supports, and fasteners)? If you don't have the tank well grounded (i.e. insulated from the chassis) you run the chance of static buildup in the tank with a resultant spark, perhaps during fueling. If you do have the tank grounded, you have dissimilar metals in contact and something (the aluminum) will suffer, especially in the presence of impressed voltage which may occur from sensors, ground resistance, etc. Since aluminum tanks are uses in lots of vehicles, there must be a solution to the possible corrosion. How is it done?
I think the questions Paul had were pretty well covered by posters in this thread. I dont know enough about this kind of thing to offer my own opinion other than the fact that I think I will be going with some thin foam insulation wrapped around the tank and straps to protect the tank, I will probably add a ground strap to that as well just to be on the safe side. If anyone here is more knowledgable and would like to offer some input that would be great. The tank will be made in raw aluminum only though and not covered, that way the buyer can add their own kind of protection at their desire.
Thanks for the input so far guys, keep it coming I am letting Tony know how much interest there is so far in each kind of tank.
I think the questions Paul had were pretty well covered by posters in this thread. I dont know enough about this kind of thing to offer my own opinion other than the fact that I think I will be going with some thin foam insulation wrapped around the tank and straps to protect the tank, I will probably add a ground strap to that as well just to be on the safe side. If anyone here is more knowledgable and would like to offer some input that would be great. The tank will be made in raw aluminum only though and not covered, that way the buyer can add their own kind of protection at their desire.
Thanks for the input so far guys, keep it coming I am letting Tony know how much interest there is so far in each kind of tank.
-Joe
Rather then foam around the straps, you way want to use some sort of rubber; as it will be more durable and les likely to absorb water...
[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 03-19-2011).]
A bonding strap to the tank itself is a good idea... in the OEM config the mounting straps took care of that. The critical area though is the fuel filler neck: it must be bonded to the chassis so that any potential difference in voltage between the nozzle and the chassis is neutralized before the fuel starts flowing between the two.
I know for sure at least on my car that there was a ground strap at the filler neck just underneath the "cup" that it sits in. In either case, I'm sure if the buyer wants to add a ground strap to the tank somewhere that it wouldn't "hurt" anything, assuming the proper materials were used.
I am going to contact Tony early this week to see if he can make up a price for a tank just like mine for the people who want one. He can replicate that tank fairly easily and from there we can work on making a smaller, more stock fitting tank.
Keep in mind, my tank fits in the hole just fine. It doesnt hang down below the flat surface of the bottom of the car. It is physically quite a bit bigger though so you need to get creative to mount it in a way that suits you, I can provide ideas. The goal I would like to achieve with a more stock fitting tank, is to reduce the width and height a little bit so all one would need to do is lengthen their stock straps to fit the tank. It may be a little bit before we can perfect this design though because we will have to guess how much to reduce the measurements, make the tank, fit it in my other car and possibly have to change some dimensions from there still. The other downside to this tank is that you will lose the capacity I have with my tank. I think mine is well over stock capacity and making it fit better means reducing the size.
For reference, when I installed my tank dry I filled it with exactly 5 gallons from a can in my garage. I started the car a few times, drove it around the block, but nothing major. Then I drove it to the gas station about 4 miles from my house, not getting into the throttle much and put 6 more gallons in it. After that it read just about 3/4 tank with a brand new sender from TFS. I couldn't have burned off more than a gallon driving it how little I did and I put 11 gallons in it total for a reading of 3/4 tank. I would assume another 2-4 gallons could technically "fit" in there but I wont push it until I make an expansion tank because of the height I put the vent tube at.
I am curious as to how much fuel your tank will hold and that alone would be the deciding factor for me. I would love to have 12+ gallons of usable fuel capacity between fill ups.
I would want as much capacity as possible, even going longer than your current tank. Every cup full helps when trying to reach the next gas stop. I am sure with all the innovative fiero owners out there coming up with a mounting system and grounding method should be easy.
[This message has been edited by speed1 (edited 03-20-2011).]
Yes one thing I forgot about was that my tank is short in the front. We could build this same tank I have but elongate the front of it as far as possible. I will see if we can get one built like that and see what kind of capacity it really has.
With the phase-out date for leaded fuel getting closer, more and more competitors are expressing interest in the E85 fuel option, though some are hesitant to make the change from Avgas to E85 due to a perceived significant cost. One major area of concern is fuel cell compatibility. As a result, the Technical Department has started to compile a list of fuel cells suited for use with E85 as well as low-cost options for ethanol-proofing those fabricated aluminium tanks. We will continue to update this list for you as more information becomes available.
Ethanol-proofing your fabricated tank
If you are not in the market for a new bladder tank or you already have a fabricated tank fitted to your vehicle, you still have some very cheap options. As not all aluminium alloys are created equal, try to find out the actual material used. 5005, 5052, 5083, 5086, 6061 & 6063 type aluminum alloys are naturally better at resisting corrosion. If you are having a new tank fabricated, you should insist it be made from one of these alloys using 5356 welding. This will ensure best protection and a long service life.
A cheap (under $200 in many cases) and effective method of protecting aluminum components is anodizing; the controlled oxidization of aluminum, which leaves a thin layer of aluminum oxide on the outer layer of the material. This oxide layer provides excellent protection against corrosion. Marcel Meerkerk from Advanced Anodising Ltd in Tokoroa has provided us with some tips on anodizing:
• Type 2 anodizing, also known as Marine Grade Anodizing, is used for decorative purposes as well as wear and corrosion resistance. This is suitable for fuel tanks, swirl pots, fuel rails, carburetors, etc. when using E85. It also provides the greatest range in color options.
• Type 3 anodizing is commonly called hard anodizing and is similar to Type 2 but provides the greatest protection against corrosion. The color range is very limited and usually black is used.
• Fabricated components should be made from 5005, 5052, 5083, 5086, 6061 & 6063 alloys. Machined components should be made out of 6061 alloy. Avoid any 2000 series alloys such as 2011 or 2024. These alloys machine very well but due to their high copper content do not perform as well with regards to corrosion resistance even if anodized.
• Avoid where possible mixing too many alloys when constructing a fuel tank or similar. Different alloys anodize differently. If the alloys are too dissimilar then one alloy may anodize in preference to the other, resulting in a variation in coating thickness.
• Avoid the use of non-aluminum alloys, as these are quite often damaged during anodizing and again adversely affect the current flow in the part to be anodized. Some times we receive parts that have steel inserts, which rust if anodized. Steel parts must either be removed, masked or not anodized.
• Price depends in part on the number of items to be anodized, the size/surface, whether masking is required, whether extra cleaning is required, whether or not color is required, whether or not any extra surface preparation is required prior to anodizing.
• If parts are already anodized they can be re-anodized if damaged or showing early stages of corrosion.
• If parts are already corroded with pitting corrosion, it may be best to replace the part rather than anodizing. It all depends on the degree.
joesfiero: Any way you can get your guys to make a version out of 304 stainless steel?
-ryan
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-23-2011).]
somewhere in the archives there is a pic of a tank someone designed that was kind of "T" shaped. the top of the "T" was right behind the spare tire well and i think it held about 13-15gal. it's been so long ago though, that i can never find the thread. it might be worth looking for since you have someone who can make it for you.
Ryan, I dont know what grade aluminum he uses, all it says on his website is that he manufaftures with marine grade aluminum. I can ask him what it is exactly. Unfortunately he is in the business of manufacturing aluminum tanks only. I asked him to do a stainless tank a long time ago and he said he wasnt set up to do that.
Cypress, I wasnt trying to step on anyone's toes. I had no idea you considered this. Do you mind me asking what kind of pricing you came up with? I seem to think Tony is offering these tanks for a good price, $300 is a bit of change but well worth it IMHO if you want to run your car for a long time to come.
Phillipine, the tank you are describing sounds like the one in the Lambolounge link posted above. I would bet it is the same one, if you click the link you can see his design. That tank required extensive modification to the car as well as an external pump, none of which I really wanted to do.
Ryan, I dont know what grade aluminum he uses, all it says on his website is that he manufaftures with marine grade aluminum. I can ask him what it is exactly. Unfortunately he is in the business of manufacturing aluminum tanks only. I asked him to do a stainless tank a long time ago and he said he wasnt set up to do that.
Yes, please see if you can find out. I would like to run E85, but only if it isn't going to react with or eat anything in my fuel system.
Sorry for the delayed response, I spoke with Tony today and he said the aluminum he uses is 5052. Based on the article posted by Ryan, it should be fine to run E85 in these tanks.
For me the potential value of this tank is increased capacity... but we still do not know what the capacity is.
My preferred method to verify this is to remove a fuel line and pump the tank (jumper the pump), then add 1 gallon of gas, drive to the nearest gas station and top it off. The 1 gallon + fillup should be the upper limit of usable gallons within the tank. If the usable gallons could be in the 13 - 15 gallon range, then you should not have any issue selling these tanks to many of the engine swappers.
I am glad to see that your tank builder is using 5053 aluminum. I was concerned because I have done a lot of work with 6061 T-6 aluminum building bicycle and HPV frames. With the common types of aluminum like 6061 and 6063 you lose a lot of strength when you weld and more concerning to me would be that you also increase the likelyhood of a fatique failure by decreasing the fatique life. To prevent that you need to have anything welded out of 6061 heat treated after the welding is done. With 5053 you do not need to heat treat after welding.
And for those that are thinking of using aluminum for the mounting straps on these tanks I would highly recommend using steel instead of aluminum because of fatique failure. That is the same thing that caused the jet to rip open a panel while flying the other day. It is a very serious concern for anything made of aluminum that undergoes repeated stressing, which the mounting strap would. I don't think it would be too neat if you were driving down the road and the tank dropped out of the car. Might just ruin your day and give Fiero's a bad name again for being susceptable to fires.
If I may add a tinge of info on the 6061&(3) "T" designators; T-6 is heat treated "&" artificially aged. If you are welding an alloy in a heat treated stage, you are destroying that treatment & adding stress in the heat affected weld zone which invites failure of the weld site. It is necessary to anneal first, weld & re-heat treat. I would guess it may be difficult to re-heat treat a bicycle frame & minimize distorting it, as a cold water quench of a complete frame would have to be done in a spray booth of sorts. The 6000 series alloys can be treated to the -T4 condition, which again requires a cold water quench, and is an unstable condition, then the alloy will naturally age to -T8(if I recall correctly), after 96 hours.I don't have any of the old USAF manuals around any more & after 45 yrs of professional welding/h/t & electro-plating-I've retired. Let those young bucks pick it up. The 5000 series aluminum's is the best for corrosion resistance.
An idea for the tank mounts- is it possible to add 4 tabs, 3/8th"thick(2 on ea. side) with a piece of 3/4" round stock welded to the outer edge of the tab & a 3/8th hole thru?? It may be necessary to add a stiffener plate to the side of the tank to spread out the stress load. On the car, change the swing away strap mount to just another threaded T-bolt. Angle the 3/4" round to allow the T-bolt to slide thru as it is tightened.
Or- build a saddle from 1/8th" alum, space apart @ 1", form to fit contour of your tank & again, weld in a piece of 3/4" round stock, on each end,w/said 3/8th" thru hole angled to compliment the car T-bolts as the tank is tightened into place. And as above- a stiffener or stress plate could be added to the bottom of the tank.
And I guess a piece of 1/4" wall-3/4" pipe could be welded thru the tank with a 3/8th" hole thru end to allow T-bolt mounts. I know space is a premium & these are just my ideas--use if you wish--Good luck--rusty old welder or is it old rusty welder??
My fiero projects include a 4.9/5 spd. #2. 98 camaro T-top & door cores w/stock glass & stock rear hatch & swap fiero windshield to camaro non-heated rear glass, w/drivetrain under rear hatch & stock fiero rear window in place, wide body & V-8(4.9 or 3.5 land rover with a pontiac tempest 4 spd t/a in-line set up) on a buick suv forged alum IRS. Swapped out stock buick hubs to 04 G/P front drive hubs/axles, coil-overs. My driver is an 86 SE w/front hood heat vents & camaro mini cubies hard mounted side by side, other mods planned. Working the wifes 87 SE motor job now. I'm old but I ain't dead.
Originally posted by Rick Morehouse: I'm old but I ain't dead.
One of my favorit quotes from Ronald Reagan "I want you to know that also I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience." -during a 1984 presidential debate with Walter Mondale
ALJR; Sir/Ma'am; I wasn't being ugly nor mean towards any age groups/persons. Life ain't always kind in that some lives are cut short by whatever events cause us to die physically/mentally, then some are blessed to realize that being/getting up in age, affords those to rejoice/share info. Ones endeavors/pursuits in any field for a time will/should quantify/qualify them an avenue of: been there/done that. In that vain I was merely suggesting ideas for the Aluminum fuel take vendor/manufacture per their request for tank mounting/holding ideas and expounding on the welding/treatments of aluminum alloys. Political correctness aside::::::::::hell ya--age has afforded me the time to acquire the skills, training & education & to a degree, the audacity to think I could/should expound on a subject I know a little bit about, in the hopes that someone could/would benefit. Just last night, I learned my next door neighbor-(one of those "young bucks" I mentioned), says he is in school to learn welding & that his Dad has taught him everything. He wants to be an under water welder and make Zillions of $$$$$. Well that's cool I said, & was asking him how big a scope of job opportunities does that afford him? His reply was that in the Great Lakes region there was a chance to build boats @ a shipyard. I started to suggest he keep his field of dreams open to the many other welding paths & he abruptly told me -no-under water welding was it. I wished him luck, he is "only" 21. Age "is" a player. There's been a time or two when I think-damn I'm good @ welding, etc., sure wish I could pass this info on to someone & maybe they wouldn't have to go thru all the "schools of hard knocks". I'm a little hard- headed or is it old school, cause I have some of lifes' "old" junk to draw from & those younger hopefully have many of lifes' lessons to learn from--as they age. From friend-to-friend; lets keep our fieros fast & forever. Rick
Joe, Have you determined the internal volume of the tank yet?
I for one would really like to know how much larger your tank is compared to the stock tank. I've got a V-8 in my Fiero and I could really use a larger gas tank.
~ Bob
------------------ "Its nice to be important. Its more important to be nice."
somewhere in the archives there is a pic of a tank someone designed that was kind of "T" shaped. the top of the "T" was right behind the spare tire well and i think it held about 13-15gal. it's been so long ago though, that i can never find the thread. it might be worth looking for since you have someone who can make it for you.
Very nice job on that tank and it won't be rusting out or in again. I would prime and paint the tank to keep any possible corrosion away from humidity, acid rain and near the beach, salt spray. Some sound deadening material at the top and on the sides should complete the job. The increased capacity is great but the real attractiveness is that the tank may last a long time and it saves some weight.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Thanks again guys. The tank has been great for close to a year and a half now.
As for weight savings, its fairly close to the stock weight, the aluminum is thicker than the steel for strength.
Great ideas for keeping the tank in good condition for years to come, I ship these tanks out raw and the customer can choose to do whatever they wish with them, or keep them bare. Mine has been bare since I put it in with no hassle, though I do plan on dropping it in the near future to wrap it or paint it. No noises at all but its in the elements so I want to protect it if I can.
We had a few customers early on but nothing except the occasional passerby lately. I am not selling these to make money on them, though Tony does but its not his primary business so I really just do it to offer something to the community. If someone is interested Ill make them a tank but if not Ill just be one of a handfull of Fieros to have an aluminum tank.
