Yeah, I saw that in your last post. If I had a 3.4 I'd really look at getting that DTB setup. I was looking at other engine options for a future swap, but since seeing the DTB, I'm sold on a 3.4 swap when/if the money and another Fiero presents themselves.
[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 08-02-2011).]
I agree with grinding the welds smooth. The only other thing I would do is install some screw taps so a simple filler plate could be installed. I love the "Fiero" engraved into the stock manifold and if I had my hands on a set of DTB intakes I would cut up an engraved plenum and use the middle section to bridge the two plenums to cover up all the fuel and electrical stuff. That would look amazing and to an untrained eye would probably look stock.
Damn, Finally a intake option I truly want! Another thing to save up the money for.
We are working on building one for someone right now and we're going to do just this, the welds will be ground smooth and it will be painted red.
There is no reason to spend the time/money on boring out the throttle bodies because what you get with the DTB intake is essentially a 104mm throttle body opening.
We are currently planning a dyno test for the very near future.
Hmmmm... This red one I want to see. I also like drue's idea of a "Fiero" bridge piece to span the top of the intakes. Since I have a 3.4 this really interests me.
Originally posted by Rick 88: Are the dual TB's stock or bored out?
quote
Originally posted by Oslo: There is no reason to spend the time/money on boring out the throttle bodies because what you get with the DTB intake is essentially a 104mm throttle body opening.
Oslo, I agree with the conclusion in the first part of your statement, but not with the ("because...") math you've cited to support that conclusion in the second part of your statement. The latter appears flawed substantially, and it unintentionally may frighten away some otherwise interested potential customers.
More specifically, while it may sound very counterintuititive to many people, two stock-sized (52mm) Fiero V6 throttle bodies are not essentially equivalent to one single 104mm throttle body, as you've asserted above. Rather, two stock-sized (52mm) Fiero V6 throttle bodies are more equiuvalent in area to one single 73.5mm throttle body, which happens to be a perfectly reasonable size for most lightly to moderately modified, pushrod 600 V6 applications for a Fiero (including the 3.4L engine swap).
Feel free to double-check my TB area calculations (which intentiionally exclude details like the thickness of the throttle bodies' butterfly valve stems or that of the butterfly valves themselves).
The good news is, I'd think that if anything, Oslo, the sizes of the two stock throttle bodies' your TLG company is employing with this new dual-plenum intake manifold fortuitously are probably even more appropriate in size than you unintentionally may have led some others to believe by erroneously asserting them to be equivalent to "essentially a 104mm throttle body opening."
I agree with grinding the welds smooth. The only other thing I would do is install some screw taps so a simple filler plate could be installed. I love the "Fiero" engraved into the stock manifold and if I had my hands on a set of DTB intakes I would cut up an engraved plenum and use the middle section to bridge the two plenums to cover up all the fuel and electrical stuff. That would look amazing and to an untrained eye would probably look stock.
Damn, Finally a intake option I truly want! Another thing to save up the money for.
I talked to HoHo about this at the Shipman event and he's got me convinced that this needs to be an option. We're just trying to decide if we want to have something custom built, or use an existing engine cover. If we come to market with it the goal will to make it look stock and kind of match the design on the OEM valve covers.
What we've done is combine two existing products and some wiring to produce a really cool end product. 1 part GTR Lighting Monster Board: http://www.tlg-store.com/product_p/7010103.htm + 1 part OEM Fiero 3rd Brake Light Housing: + 1 part Wiring Adapter: =
Stock Third Brake Light Bulb Current Draw: 2.1 amps at 14 VDC LVL 2 LED Third Brake Light Current Draw: 0.37 amps at 14 VDC
Of course to save yourself some money you could just build one yourself! Purchase the GTR Lighting Monster LED board, find the right wire harness, and cut up your existing third brake light housing! Or just buy one already made up and save some time.
Regardless of the actual TB opening size, if I'm looking at that correctly, each bank gets its own intake plenum as well as it's own 52mm throttle body. The feel good, flying by the seat of your pants factor says that's double the air/fuel flow to the intake.
I was thinking Ferrari when I was writing my post about filling the middle section. So sexy. I think a custom water jetted or engraved piece of stainless would really pop. it could be polished up and the Fiero text could be emulated. As much as I like the idea of cutting up an engraved plenum and using the cast parts it would be a tragedy to cut up the fairly rare engraved late style plenums.
Maybe a double layer so the top layer could be laser cut and the bottom layer solid so you could paint the bottom layer and then with the laser cut piece over top it could resemble the stock engraved pars.
If the welds were ground down and the plenums powdercoated red, the TLG DTB intake manifold would look like something from a Ferrari, wouldn't it?
Thanks for posting a link to that Ferrari engine pic, Blacktree.
I'm thinking that Oslo and his group may be onto something big with their new DTB intake manifold. Unlike many new products offered for Fieros, that thing (understandably so, IMHO) seems to be generating some genuine excitement.
I'm interested in the LED Sidemarker lights. Is it $155 for the set of (4) or $155 per sidemarker? Really cool website though bud.
Thanks, Amir
------------------ 1 of 2: Graphite Grey Pearl 87 GT 5 spd: 2.8L (Best 1/4 mile: 15.57@87mph, 2.0 60ft) 2 of 2: Ferrari Red 88 Formula/4T65EHD: 2000 L67 Motor (Best 1/4 mile: 12.0@118mph, 1.89 60ft w/True Street Radial Tires not Drag Radials!) New Engine on the Road again! FTW Motorsports style! 312rwhp/332rwtq
On the dual T/B intake, I see one TPS and (I think) two IAC's. Is that correct? I also notice a stock fuel pressure regulator. Will this set up work with a stock ECM? Is it necessary to reposition the EGR if you decide to run it?
On the dual T/B intake, I see one TPS and (I think) two IAC's. Is that correct? I also notice a stock fuel pressure regulator. Will this set up work with a stock ECM? Is it necessary to reposition the EGR if you decide to run it?
If you look at the website, there's an EGR selection drop-down box.
On the dual T/B intake, I see one TPS and (I think) two IAC's. Is that correct? I also notice a stock fuel pressure regulator. Will this set up work with a stock ECM? Is it necessary to reposition the EGR if you decide to run it?
There is one TPS and one IAC. It works great with the stock ECM. There is nothing to modify to use this intake in regards to the ECM. Plug and play.
If you select the "No EGR" option, you get a block-off plate kit for the EGR valve. If you select the "Yes EGR" option your intake will come with the correct flange to bolt up to the stock EGR tube.
The Blue piece comes with the chrome cap and it threads into the fuel rail opening for the CSI. The billet aluminum plug with the o-ring fits snugly in place inside the lower intake manifold where the injector used to be and is secured with the factory bolt hole.
With this kit you can easily install a fuel supply for a nitrous system or an aftermarket fuel pressure gauge. Or you can simply ditch the unsightly CSI system that doesn't seem to really do anything.
Every V6 Fiero I've owned (5 of them) has had the CSI removed from the engine and I've never had any issues, and I live 2 hours away from the Canadian border - that means it's cold up here! I've never had a problem with the car starting. This is one of those silly GM ideas like throttle body coolant tubes...
We dyno'd the Fiero with the DTB intake on it today (That's why I'm posting this at nearly 2am, been a long day!) and the results were great! I'll post actual graphs later this weekend when some things slow down, but here's some teaser numbers:
1985 Fiero 3.4L V6 with Auto-Tranny slush box with stock exhaust system and stock lower intake manifold.
+16 RWHP +28 RWTQ
No tuning. Bolt on and go.
There is more power to be had because for some reason the computer sent the car into an extremely rich condition at 4,200 RPM every time. Went from a nice 12 AFR down to a below-10 AFR!!! Need to figure that out, then I'm sure we'd see even bigger power gains.
[This message has been edited by Oslo (edited 08-18-2011).]
We dyno'd the Fiero with the DTB intake on it today (That's why I'm posting this at nearly 2am, been a long day!) and the results were great! I'll post actual graphs later this weekend when some things slow down, but here's some teaser numbers:
1985 Fiero 3.4L V6 with Auto-Tranny slush box with stock exhaust system and stock lower intake manifold.
+16 RWHP +28 RWTQ
No tuning. Bolt on and go.
There is more power to be had because for some reason the computer sent the car into an extremely rich condition at 4,200 RPM every time. Went from a nice 12 AFR down to a below-10 AFR!!! Need to figure that out, then I'm sure we'd see even bigger power gains.
Are you using the stock Fiero ECM? Was this test on a stock stock 3.4, or modded version? On the video I noticed the response blipping the throttle off idle was a little sluggish (or appeared to be) How is the power at lower rpms compared to the stock single tb? I would like additinal top end power, but not if it is going to degrade low rpm power a lot. I am still interested in comparing the performance to your ported stock parts.
[This message has been edited by Rick 88 (edited 08-18-2011).]
The throttle response is not sluggish at all, if anything it is much faster than stock. There was no power lost at higher RPMs, and the greatest gains were in the first half of the power band. This intake made the car a lot more fun to drive because instead of 150~ish torque at 3,200 RPM, we got 175 torque at 3,200 RPM!!! It's a burnout machine now!
Originally posted by Oslo: We dyno'd the Fiero with the DTB intake on it today (That's why I'm posting this at nearly 2am, been a long day!) and the results were great! I'll post actual graphs later this weekend when some things slow down, but here's some teaser numbers:
1985 Fiero 3.4L V6 with Auto-Tranny slush box with stock exhaust system and stock lower intake manifold.
+16 RWHP +28 RWTQ
No tuning. Bolt on and go.
quote
Originally posted by Oslo: It's a stock 3.4L v6.
The throttle response is not sluggish at all, if anything it is much faster than stock. There was no power lost at higher RPMs, and the greatest gains were in the first half of the power band. This intake made the car a lot more fun to drive because instead of 150~ish torque at 3,200 RPM, we got 175 torque at 3,200 RPM!!! It's a burnout machine now!
Oslo,those results sound very encouraging!
To perhaps put some of those numbers into an even more meaningful perspective (because as you know, different dynos can provide different readings on even the same engine), some percentage-based data (to help compensate for that limitation) might also be helpful. Accordingly, can you post the actual percentage increase in peak horsepower (which I'm arbitrarily guessing to be near 10%), and the actual percentage increase in peak torque (maybe near 19%)?
I think the dyno graphs you mentioned you'll post this weekend also will be helpful, likely even more so than just the peak numbers that some on this forum narrowly focus on to the exclusion of all else, forgetting that the "areas under the curves" for the graphs you mentioned often are more meaningful for overall performance than are only the peak HP and peak torque numbers.
I agree with you that more power might be attainable from your new DTB intake manifold:
quote
Originally posted by Oslo: No tuning. Bolt on and go.
There is more power to be had because for some reason the computer sent the car into an extremely rich condition at 4,200 RPM every time. Went from a nice 12 AFR down to a below-10 AFR!!! Need to figure that out, then I'm sure we'd see even bigger power gains.
However, I wonder if that "extremely rich condition at 4,200 RPM" you mention now means that most of those even bigger power gains are attainable primarily through some electronic tuning, which then would represent something other than a plug-`n-play, bolt-on-and-go operation, at least for many of us.
That potential caveat aside (and I stress "potential" caveat because that hasn't been definitively established yet), it still sounds to me like you and TLG may be onto something big with your new DTB intake manifold, as I mentioned about two weeks ago.
The AFR drops like a rocket ship at the same point each time we drive the car, every time. We suspect a bad sensor (TPS, MAP, or Coolant), after all the sensors get checked over, THEN we'll look into tuning. I think if the car was running properly the AFR would have held steady around 12~13 for the whole run, and then had even better results.
No tuning will be done until we can confirm that all factory electronic components on our test car are working properly.
Notice on each graph at 4,100 RPM how the air/fuel ratio just drops like a ton of bricks further than the wideband can read. If that got cleaned up and held steady around 12 instead of below 10, there would be even more power gained!
Do you have some dyno charts showing performance comparisons from idle up to 3000 rpm? I really like the torque my 3.4 is currently putting out. I cruise 70 at 2500 rpm. My car will pull a 5000 ft pass with the A/C on, two people in the car, and the trunk full of stuff in 5th gear at 60 without slowing down. Will the dual tb set up allow me to keep that kind of low rpm power and torque? I am also interested in finding out what is causing the sharp drop off in power over 4000 rpm.
[This message has been edited by Rick 88 (edited 08-23-2011).]
