Perfect. Until this thread, I was completely unaware that the F23 came in a 3.63 ratio. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the other thread(s). Thanks!
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No, the HTOB and the fitting are different, you'll need the adapter if your permanent line is unmodified.
I needed the adapter for the T-550 as well. Just wondered if the threaded end on the F23 HTOB was the same as the T-550 HTOB. I know they're different from the Fiero hyd line. Regardless... Not a show stopper. My adapter was not terribly expensive, in the grand scheme of things.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-23-2011).]
Originally posted by Raydar: I needed the adapter for the T-550 as well. Just wondered if the threaded end on the F23 HTOB was the same as the T-550 HTOB.
Yes, I understood what you meant. When I said, "No, the HTOB and the fitting are different....", I meant the F23 and F40 fittings are different from the fitting you have currently for your HTOB. These HTOB's do not use threaded connections. The conical end on the adapter is held in place with a hairpin.
Here is a picture I took of the male connector the F23 accepts (no o-ring installed).
Edit: Matt posted above while I was typing this up. His pictures show the HTOB connections well. Thelin's adapter attaches on this side of the bleeder.
[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 10-23-2011).]
I wanted to add some information if anyone cares about how the three shafts inside the F23 work (not to steal L67's thread of course). I got this information right from http://www.automotiveforums...rag_f23_rebuild.html
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Originally posted by J-Ri @ Automotive Forums: First we start with the input shaft. The order of major hard componants goes as such.
-Facts to remember are 1st, 2nd, and 5th drive gear are cast as part of the input shaft meaning they always turn with the shaft, 3rd and 4th drive gears only drive at the speed of the input shaft when the synchronizer sleeve (which is splined to the input shaft) is locked into either gear.
Next we have the Countershaft.
Top to bottom: Countershaft Final Drive, 2nd gear #1 driven, 2-1 synchronizer Assm., 1st gear #1 Driven
-Facts to remember are, the Countershaft final drive gear is part of the shaft, 1st and 2nd #1 driven gears are only splined to the shaft via the synchronizer being engaged to the gears.
And lastly we have the output shaft.
Left to Right: Final Drive, Rev final driven, R-5 synchronizer Assm., 5th Final Driven, 3rd Final Driven, 4th Final Driven
-Facts to remember are, the Big gear just to the right of the Final drive gear spins freely on the shaft along with the 5th gear final driven until either is selected with the synchronizer sleeve. 3rd final driven and 4th final driven are part of the output shaft and obviously are always engaged with it.
1st Gear: Begins with the first gear from the left on the input shaft. Power is transmitted to the 1st gear #1 driven gear on the countershaft (Big one on the bottom) when the shift fork engages the 1-2 synchronizer into the 1st gear position. The gear is locked to the countershaft and power is transmitted through the shaft to the countershaft final drive which meshes with the second to last gear from the left on the output shaft. From there it turns the final drive gear which of course, turns the differential.
2nd Gear: The shift fork on the countershaft moves back out of first gear position and into second. The second gear from the left on the input shaft drives the 2nd gear from the bottom on the countershaft which is now locked to the countershaft via the synchronizer. Again it drives the Countershaft Final drive gear which meshes with the second to last gear on the output shaft transmiting power through the output shaft to the final drive gear, into the diff.
3rd Gear: Much simpler then 1st, 2nd, or reverse. 3rd is engaged by sliding the 3-4 synchronizer sleeve toward the left locking 3rd drive gear to the input shaft, this transmits power to the second to the last gear on the output shaft which again, is part of the output shaft, turning the differential.
4th Gear: Similar to 3rd the synchronizer sleeve is slid to the right engaging 4th drive gear and locking it to the input shaft. That gear drives the gear furthest to the right on the output shaft which is also part of the output shaft, Driving the output shaft and the differential.
5th Gear: 5th Gear is simple like 3rd and 4th however instead of locking the DRIVE gears to the input shaft they are ALWAYS part of the input shaft which means we have to Lock the DRIVEN gears to the output shaft. In this case the biggest gear (3rd in from left) on the input shaft is the drive gear, again note it is part of the shaft. Its mating member on the output shaft rotates freely until we slide the 5-R synchro towards the right. This locks the 5th Driven gear to the output shaft which turns the Final drive gear.
Reverse: Reverse is unique in this transmission since it uses 1st gear componants. The power flow moves from the first gear on the left of the input shaft, through the largest gear on the countershaft (which spins freely on the countershaft since the synchronizer is not engaged and it rides on the shaft with a roller bearing) This big gear then drives the Large gear 2nd in from left on the output shaft, but since there is an extra step in the gear train the output rotation is reversed. A good way to look at this is that an odd number of meshing gearsets will allow both input and output shafts to rotate the same direction, an even number of gearsets will allow the input and output shafts to rotate in opposite directions.
My pics..
another pic of the fork and gear
all three shafts out and on the bench
all installed about to seal up and reinstall trans back in car
Make sure you use an anaerobic sealer between the housing or you'll get a fluid leak.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 10-24-2011).]
great write up. i have a new zero mile 2010 fy1 f23. have a new obx lsd. also have a 2002 f23 that i took the bellhousing from. made my own adapter to use with my ls aluminum v8. have mounted in cradle but thats about it right now. i might need one of your custom cables though. ill let you know.
great write up. i have a new zero mile 2010 fy1 f23. have a new obx lsd. also have a 2002 f23 that i took the bellhousing from. made my own adapter to use with my ls aluminum v8. have mounted in cradle but thats about it right now. i might need one of your custom cables though. ill let you know.
You might want to get the cable now cause we're doing a group buy on them.
Since this seems like THE F23 info thread, I'd like to add: GM made a DVD about a complete teardown and rebuild of the F23 transmission, I have a copy, it's REALLY technical and in-depth.
I have found a F23 with low KM i will keep as back up! Looks like the cables and HOTB adapter are available, now someone get on this fabrication of the mounts i am in for a set as soon as they are made !
I'm still trying to understand this gearing thing:
Which would be most ideal for the Series III 3800 S/C swap? For fuel efficiency? For performance?
Everyone says the gear spacing is less than ideal. Does the different ratios affect this? Looks like the higher the FDR, the better the effiency, no? So the FY1 version would be more desirable for great fuel economy? How much would performance suffer?
Any and all answers are greatly appreciated.
[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 01-08-2012).]
This is the one you want to get for the correct GM Metric bell housing...
It has a final drive ratio of 3.94:1
The other final drive ratios are obtained by swapping the bellhousing case half from the Metric Cavalier 2200 tranny over to one of the Ecotec transmissions as shown above.
I don't really see a huge benefit from using the 3.63...
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[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 05-14-2013).]
Originally posted by carbon: I don't really see a huge benefit from using the 3.63...
Meh.. Good for hypermiling and those swapping from the duke with the Isuzu who want to maintain or improve their fuel economy. It's my favorite ratio.
Like I posted in the first post, there are three ratios. 3.63, 3.84, 3.95
3.63 - Similar to the Isuzu gearing. 3.84 - Similar to the original Getrag gearing. 3.95 - Similar to the 4:10 "rock crusher" Muncie gearing.
That's highly overgeneralizing things, but for the layman.. 3.95 is really too short to be usable in a Fiero though. It was designed to get GM's small SUV's like the Saturn Vue rolling, much like the 4:10 was originally used in the Fiero because the Duke was so anemic.
Use the 3.63 if you want economy and have an engine with enough torque to still be able to get your car moving - the gears are tall. Use the 3.84 if you plan on drag racing or have a low torque engine that struggles to run through the taller gears of the economy gearing.
[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-08-2012).]
IMO the 3.84 is too short for my liking with a 3800 but I don't have a desire to buy two transmissions and piece them together for the 3.63 ratio, so I'll deal with it. I'll report what it's like when I get it going.
No kidding! The stock automatic is a piece of garbage.
The gearing ratios make a huge difference when going down a track. But when you're not racing for tenths of a second and making a trip up the road to work in the morning, the performance differences are moot.
Nick I didn't take what you said as argumentative at all, good questions. While the space is small between the first two gears, notice the third, forth, and fifth gear have a much larger discrepancy. The 3.63 gearing has an addition 10 mph at 6000rpm in 5th gear, 7 mph at 6000rpm in 4th, and 5 mph at 6000rpm in 3rd. That might not seem like a lot, but the effort required to row through those wider ranges is significant. Albeit the lower gearing has a greater top end, it takes much longer to get there. Also, if you look at the 70mph rpm, you're right, the differences are negligible, that's cruising RPM. The difference is when both cars are racing over short distances. If you raced two identical cars with the different gearing on the Bonneville Salt flats though, the taller geared car would probably win if the car has enough torque to make use of the taller gears and overcome drag.
[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-09-2012).]
One more question... was the .81 5th really an option in the VIN 4 J-body? The guy I am getting my tranny from is telling me that neither he or his yard have an M86 RPO tranny, apparently meaning they only have MG3's? I find that hard to believe.
Other places that i have read, and mattwa, say the .81 gear was only used in the Vue and small SUVs like it... so it wouldn't have the right bell anyway. I am wondering if I have muddied the waters with him by mentioning the RPO code...
Edit: Just so we're clear, I am talking about the short 5th gear option, 0.81 in place of the 0.69 gear.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-09-2012).]
It's my understanding that the MG3 (shorter 5th gear) was only offered for the Saturn Vue. The HHR uses a shorter final drive (3.95) but the same gearing as the cars.
All of the cars should only use the original gearing and 3.84 final drive, with the exception of only the newer Cobalts, which offer 3.63 as well as 3.84 final drives, depending on the option ordered from GM.
In short, only one option was offered for the J-bodies, and that's the M86 F23. GM Metric bellhousing from 2000-2002, and Ecotec bellhousing from 2000-2005. As long as you have the correct bellhousing (provided you aren't swapping internals) it's a safe bet.
My main concern with this transmission is the supposedly "170 ft lbs of torque" rating. I recently dynoed a mostly stock 3800 SC Series II engine an got an average of about 300 ft lbs torque based on three runs. Obviouly the transmission can withstand more than the rated numbers but does anyone have a lot of experience of this transmission in higher torque applications (300 - 450 ft lbs)?
My main concern with this transmission is the supposedly "170 ft lbs of torque" rating. I recently dynoed a mostly stock 3800 SC Series II engine an got an average of about 300 ft lbs torque based on three runs. Obviouly the transmission can withstand more than the rated numbers but does anyone have a lot of experience of this transmission in higher torque applications (300 - 450 ft lbs)?
Nelson
It's my *understanding* that Jncomutt's car was putting down around 500 torque. I do not know if that was at the wheels or crank. Before he decided to go to an automatic, he was attempting to see how much abuse the transmission could take, including clutch dumps - he snapped more axles than anything else. I personally have not been so brazen with mine.
My main concern with this transmission is the supposedly "170 ft lbs of torque" rating. I recently dynoed a mostly stock 3800 SC Series II engine an got an average of about 300 ft lbs torque based on three runs. Obviouly the transmission can withstand more than the rated numbers but does anyone have a lot of experience of this transmission in higher torque applications (300 - 450 ft lbs)?
Nelson
Those are just numbers...real world experience has shown they are VERY tough. Just look at the internals, it's pretty beefy for a "170 ft-lb" transmission. Then when you see one in person like I have next to a 282, let alone an Isuzu...makes them look like a toy.
so where would one go to get that bleeder unit for the f23? my trans didnt come with that and i CANNOT find one..
You're not talking about the Rodger Thelin adapter line are you? If you are talking about the piece on the F23, then I would assume you could get one from a junkyard.
I apologize for the late expression of appreciation. Been away the past couple days. Thanks everybody for all the information and education on the gearing! Always go the extra mile to help out a Fellow Fiero'er
Transmissions mounts are universal for either cradle. If it doesn't work with an earlier cradle it shouldn't work with the later cradle. Clearance issues?
Transmissions mounts are universal for either cradle. If it doesn't work with an earlier cradle it shouldn't work with the later cradle. Clearance issues?
the bracket doesn't clear the upper part of the cradle, near where the tierod mounts to the cradle here's a pic, it's not the greatest, but I think you'll get the idea.
you can see where the bolt should be poking through the hole in the bottom, and it's not there. the modified trans mount is bolted in, and the dodge motor mount Thelin supplied bolted to it. I've got one of Rodney's front motor mounts on, so it gets things lined up approximately to true, and I can't get the bolt from the mount thelin supplied to come through the hole, not even close.
The blue dot is the hole for the bolt, the yellow is the bolt. the red lines are the areas needing more clearance. I'd have to cut out about an inch and a half for the bracket to clear appropriately.
I figured as much, the tie rod anchor is the only variable between the cradles around the transmissions mount points. Eric, I'd email Roger that picture and explain your situation. He may even appreciate it enough to exchange your bracket with a revision.
If I were in your situation, and Roger didn't offer an alternative, I'd lightly radius the bracket on the left side, and grind some relief into the top of the cradle on the right. You won't have to remove much to align the hole in the bottom of the mount. Here's a illustration - jagged, but you can get the idea (laptop trackpad).
If you were to do so, you would need to be absolutely careful to radius very smooth reliefs to prevent stress risers, no jagged areas or steep incisions. Using an angle grinder with a fine grit sandpaper flap disk would work very well and give you a great deal control. This is of course an educated suggestion, which removes all variables of "luck" or "guesswork" from the equation, so no need to worry about pushing anyone's luck. I would suggest a different mount for anyone with a higher output engine, but for use with relatively low output engines such as the 60degree V6's and the NA and non modded supercharged 3800's, the relief on the left side of the mount shouldn't compromise structural integrity to an unsafe level, and the relief on the cradle will be a non issue.
By building your own mount, you are bringing a great deal more complexity into the mix; mount alignment, axial load integrity, weld integrity, etc. Not saying you couldn't tackle it, but if you're trying "not to push your luck", my suggestion is a much more conservative approach. I think Matt got a taste of how much mind power is required to build a mount from scratch recently.
Matt, that anchor point actually does see a great deal of load, as it is the only point of anchor for the rear tire toe angle. When you hit a pot hole with the older suspension, and the car bumpsteers, that force is transmitted directly to the tie rod anchors. You have to be thoughtful about cutting around them, or else the yield strength of the anchors can be compromised, and the anchors may go past their elasticity range when countering toe forces. The radius I highlighted in green on the cradle is of lesser importance to their integrity, than say a deeper radius closer to the base of the anchor.
Yea, I made all 4 mounts plus dogbone myself. Ugh. All out of 1/4" steel. Took about a month of working almost every day to make them, and yes alot of time was devoted to thinking of all the factors that go into designing your own mounts, every single one. I didn't like Rodger's mount and couldn't afford them anyway. The brackets only cost me about $75 to make though, and that includes things like welding rods and cutting wheels. It was a big learning experience at the least. They are beefy, but in some cases quite ugly because of revisions and stick welding (incredible penetration though). This way I don't have to really worry about them all that much if/when I decide to go turbo in the future. People say it's mounted over to the passenger side too far, but hey, I based it on the axles, so it doesn't really matter other then that.
Paul, yea, I see what you are saying. I'll see if I can fix that cut I made in that area then.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-14-2012).]
