This project is probably still 6 months off. I need to finish my LS4/F40 swap to verify all the components before doing anything more. Add to this my recent move/house purchase and funneling all disposable income to building a larger garage this year or next... Making flywheels to sell is way down the priority list.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-11-2012).]
I have put about 6K miles on the clutch/flywheel along with twelve 1/4 mile passes and many more agressive launches via autocross/3S/daily driving, so I am pretty confident in the durability of the clutch/flywheel combo. However, all my $$$ is currently being set aside for a new garage in early 2014, so it is unlikely I will have the available funds to launch flywheel production until mid to late 2014.
So after nearly 3 years, work is underway to make this flywheel a reality.
I should have the revised quote back from the machine shop by the end of next week and will order the first production flywheel to be made. I expect 3-4 weeks for the 1st production flywheel to be ready for verification. Once I have it back, I will verify all critical dimensions and clutch/pressure plate fitment. After everything has been verified, I will order the first production run of flywheels.
A few of things to be aware of...
It is unknown if I can hold the $550 price - it has been nearly 3 years since it was quoted last and many component prices have increased. The first batch will be LS4/F40 flywheels, but I made have a few blanks made that I could machine for other neutral balance applications (like 60 degree V6 and N*). Once I have finalized the price I will need to know who is interested in purchasing a flywheel in the next couple of months. I am fronting all costs to manufacture these flywheels, but would like to have a decent idea of how many flywheels are needed for the first order.
Originally posted by fieroguru: Once I have finalized the price I will need to know who is interested in purchasing a flywheel in the next couple of months. I am fronting all costs to manufacture these flywheels, but would like to have a decent idea of how many flywheels are needed for the first order.
I can tell you I'm still interested in one of the LS4/F40 flywheels, regardless of the price change. The metals used haven't become rare enough to raise the price to some astronomical value, at least. So I expect the cost to still remain reasonable for a low production custom flywheel.
I would be interested in the 4.9/F40 flywheel IF and only IF the new flywheel would reduce if not eliminate the rattle that the F40 has at idle with the clutch engaged.
I would be interested in the 4.9/F40 flywheel IF and only IF the new flywheel would reduce if not eliminate the rattle that the F40 has at idle with the clutch engaged.
A solid aluminum flywheel probably isn't going to help with that.
Originally posted by jscott1: I would be interested in the 4.9/F40 flywheel IF and only IF the new flywheel would reduce if not eliminate the rattle that the F40 has at idle with the clutch engaged.
The aluminum flywheel does nothing to reduce the input shaft rattle, its an issue with the transmission and one of the reasons you could buy the F40 for about $500 shipped to your door vs. 1600+ at the dealer. If you want to improve it, buy a 2007 F40, not a 2006 one. The fix for me is to keep the clutch pedal pushed when I am stopped and idling... pretty easy fix.
Here is the rattle with my LS4/F40 using this aluminum flywheel - might be worse with my setup as the idle is a little choppy due to the camshaft.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-19-2014).]
The aluminum flywheel does nothing to reduce the input shaft rattle, its an issue with the transmission and one of the reasons you could buy the F40 for about $500 shipped to your door vs. 1600+ at the dealer. If you want to improve it, buy a 2007 F40, not a 2006 one. The fix for me is to keep the clutch pedal pushed when I am stopped and idling... pretty easy fix.
Here is the rattle with my LS4/F40 using this aluminum flywheel - might be worse with my setup as the idle is a little choppy due to the camshaft.
I figured this would not help but I was just asking. My solution is the same to keep the clutch disengaged (i.e. pedal depressed). I've even thought about a device to hold the pedal down electronically for extended periods of time, kind of like a parking brake. But knowing how finicky the Fiero master cylinders are that probably is not a great idea.
Was the rattle solved by 2007? I hear the ratios are a little better as well. There is zero chance of me pulling my engine for this reason so I'll just have to live with it. Yours might be a scosh worse than mine, but at least you have a lumpy idling LS4 to drown it out.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 09-20-2014).]
Originally posted by jscott1: Was the rattle solved by 2007? I hear the ratios are a little better as well. There is zero chance of me pulling my engine for this reason so I'll just have to live with it. Yours might be a scosh worse than mine, but at least you have a lumpy idling LS4 to drown it out.
The rattle wasn't "solved" so much as there were some changes to the detents that should help with it. The ratios aren't "better" exactly either.
To adapt the F40 to North American applications and maximize performance, 3rd through 6th gears have been changed to higher-ratio gears starting in 2007 model year. The ratio for 3rd gear is now 1.37:1, and the ratio for 4th gear is no longer an overdrive, with a new ratio of 1.05:1. The 5th gear ratio is 0.85:1 and the 6th gear ratio is 0.71:1.
The addition of a ball-and-spring-type detent on the shift sleeve and detents on the shift rail assists the driver in shifting quicker. The detent raises the force required to move the shift lever which prevents excess movement of the shifter by the driver, and reduces the chance of double bump. Tension between the shift sleeve and the shift rail also prevents the sleeve from vibrating while in gear.
Maybe covering the case with Lizrd Skin or something would help?
I don't know if you are joking or not about the lizard skin but I wish there were some way to quiet it down. I assume it has more to do with the lightweight flywheels that we have on there compared to the dual mass one that GM used. For those of us more into cruising rather than banging the gears I wish the Guru would develop a flywheel made out of cast iron.
I don't know if you are joking or not about the lizard skin but I wish there were some way to quiet it down. I assume it has more to do with the lightweight flywheels that we have on there compared to the dual mass one that GM used. For those of us more into cruising rather than banging the gears I wish the Guru would develop a flywheel made out of cast iron.
The rattle is internal to the transmission where something rocks back & forth while idling. From my video, I can make it rattle harder or softer at the same input shaft speed, just based on how quickly I let out the clutch - I don't think the dual mass flywheel will do anything for it. Many of the Dodge Diesel trucks do the same thing and theirs is much, much louder than the F40. On a cool morning (about 50 degrees), it won't do it for several minutes, but it eventually comes back. I think if you run some thicker oil in it, it probably would quiet the rattle down, but likely slow the speed of the gear shifts.
I don't know if you are joking or not about the lizard skin but I wish there were some way to quiet it down. I assume it has more to do with the lightweight flywheels that we have on there compared to the dual mass one that GM used. For those of us more into cruising rather than banging the gears I wish the Guru would develop a flywheel made out of cast iron.
I was half joking about the lizard skin. Solid flywheels do make it worse. A heavier steel flywheel might help, but probably won't eliminate the noise.
What oil are you using in it? I've seen posts around the Internet that suggest Royal Purple synchro mesh helps a bit. Might be worth switching over?
I was half joking about the lizard skin. Solid flywheels do make it worse. A heavier steel flywheel might help, but probably won't eliminate the noise.
What oil are you using in it? I've seen posts around the Internet that suggest Royal Purple synchro mesh helps a bit. Might be worth switching over?
I'm using the GM synchromesh that's recommended for it. The noise is not horrible, and on a diesel truck who cares. But it's the kind of thing that makes the Fiero feel old and clunky compared to a new car. I was hoping a new transmission would make it drive like a new car, but no so much.
Originally posted by jscott1: I'm using the GM synchromesh that's recommended for it. The noise is not horrible, and on a diesel truck who cares. But it's the kind of thing that makes the Fiero feel old and clunky compared to a new car. I was hoping a new transmission would make it drive like a new car, but no so much.
GM never recommended Synchromesh for the F40 and that is the wrong fluid to be running. The F40 is supposed to use this manual transmission oil: 75w-85 GL4 oil. Syncromesh is around 35w and too thin to provide adequate protection for the gears. Some transmissions are designed to use syncromesh and other are not. The F40 is not.
I have done a lot of testing of various fluids in the F40. GM fluid Redline 75w-85 synthetic manual transmission oil with motorkote friction additive (all the rave on the internet) Royal purple Syncromesh Royal purple Max Shift ATF Royal Purple Max Gear 75w-90 GL-4
They all still rattled about the same, but the 75w-90 GL 4 seems to shift the best.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-21-2014).]
The aluminum flywheel does nothing to reduce the input shaft rattle, its an issue with the transmission and one of the reasons you could buy the F40 for about $500 shipped to your door vs. 1600+ at the dealer. If you want to improve it, buy a 2007 F40, not a 2006 one. The fix for me is to keep the clutch pedal pushed when I am stopped and idling... pretty easy fix.
Here is the rattle with my LS4/F40 using this aluminum flywheel - might be worse with my setup as the idle is a little choppy due to the camshaft.
Wow! That rattle is extreme. Mine rattles sometimes a little but not anything close to that. That is crazy loud man.
Scott; Is yours as loud as that one too?
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 09-22-2014).]
Archie had previously stated that he had seen/heard various levels of the rattle on the ones he had installed and has installed them on 2.8/4.9/3800/SBC/LS(x) engines.
Mine is likely worse due to the choppy idle (224/232 camshaft) and the 12 lb aluminum flywheel. A less aggressive camshaft and a larger/heavier steel flywheel would help smooth the idle rotation and would likely make it rattle less. So far the various levels of rattle track flywheel/clutch weight with the lighter setups having a louder/more noticable rattle than the heavier setups.
Here are the various weights of flywheel/clutch setups: My aluminum flywheel and 10" clutch setup weights 27.7 lbs. Stock Fiero 2.8 flywheel/clutch setup weighs about 31 lbs (4.9 would use a similar flywheel so jscott1's is likely a couple of lbs heavier than this due to the F40 aluminum ring) The stock G6/F40 flywheel/clutch setup weighs about 40 lbs total. My old Archie SBC/Getrag flywheel clutch setup weighed about 43 lbs. (Alex4mula's is likely a couple of lbs heavier due to the F40 ring) A stock LS1 flywheel is 24 lbs, the Fiero sized clutch is about 15 lbs, so an Archie LS(x) kit clutch combo is likely around 40 lbs + the weight of the F40 ring.
Archie had previously stated that he had seen/heard various levels of the rattle on the ones he had installed and has installed them on 2.8/4.9/3800/SBC/LS(x) engines.
Mine is likely worse due to the choppy idle (224/232 camshaft) and the 12 lb aluminum flywheel. A less aggressive camshaft and a larger/heavier steel flywheel would help smooth the idle rotation and would likely make it rattle less. So far the various levels of rattle track flywheel/clutch weight with the lighter setups having a louder/more noticable rattle than the heavier setups.
Here are the various weights of flywheel/clutch setups: My aluminum flywheel and 10" clutch setup weights 27.7 lbs. Stock Fiero 2.8 flywheel/clutch setup weighs about 31 lbs (4.9 would use a similar flywheel so jscott1's is likely a couple of lbs heavier than this due to the F40 aluminum ring) The stock G6/F40 flywheel/clutch setup weighs about 40 lbs total. My old Archie SBC/Getrag flywheel clutch setup weighed about 43 lbs. (Alex4mula's is likely a couple of lbs heavier due to the F40 ring) A stock LS1 flywheel is 24 lbs, the Fiero sized clutch is about 15 lbs, so an Archie LS(x) kit clutch combo is likely around 40 lbs + the weight of the F40 ring.
Archie has probably had more "success" with avoiding the rattle because he's mostly doing SBC which have heavier setups, (mine was only his second 4.9). And also I believe Archie paid full price for his F40s at a dealership which could have been handpicked to not have the rattle, (that's just a guess). I thought I was saving money and brought my own $500 eBay transmission for him to install. As with everything result vary based on many factors.
Can't believe I missed this post, I am in for a flywheel. Can send funds once the quote is confirmed and you begin taking orders. The longer I wait on completing real work, the more parts you get in production, this is working well!
