Feel your pain BV ! Been there with what I was told was a reliable shop with a dyno (never had done business with them), they made mistakes that cost me dearly. The problem with any work requiring a lot of skill to do it correctly, is that there has to be one guy dedicated to that project full time. If it drags out over time because he's bouncing between projects, then errors are made, they blame your parts, or other reasons other than theirs.
Wish you luck on the Attorney, from what I've been told by a lot of people, suits against shops do not go well at all for the owner of vehicle. Basically you can win your claim, but the judgement amount against shop is maybe just enough to cover your Attorney Bill. So then you have the satisfaction of knowing the Shop got slammed, but you still have a messed up car, and the Attorney can take a World Cruise.
I bit the bullet on my car after talking to a bunch of people, fixed it with my money. I'm not telling you to stop what you are doing, but be cautious. All the Attorney cares about making a living.
I hear ya man. I didn't want to go this route. Dean and I shook hands and parted ways with a smile. I thought it was over at that point and we would continue on and work out the bugs. The next day he flipped a 180 on me because I asked about the CEL, smoke coming out of the exhaust and a the missing parts. he claimed I "slammed him" on PFF just by posting I had found ANY problems.
Exactly. How many times have we seen this scenario repeated on PFF? Honestly, I have lost count. Dean and I spoke about this at length. I thought I got to know him over the last 6months. You can do one or the other well, mechanic or shop manager, but not both, at the same time. Dean agreed he was failing for this very reason.
Seen this far too many times... Its hard to hold yourself liable when its easy to make excuses to your “boss”, which happens to be yourself….
I have done a few jobs, but it takes a lot of concentration and focus, there are plenty of reasons why I do not take on projects that I know I could do better than anyone has.
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3/19 I gave Dean $5,000 (half of the quoted price). By 3/26 he claimed to have spent it all and demanded $3,000 more and it HAD TO BE PAID by the 26th. Think about that last date for a second. What event took place that very weekend? Not long after he needed even more because he could not afford to buy the piping for the exhaust and intake etc. A few weeks later, I had to send more. By the time the car was delivered, he had 90% of the bill and I only received 60% of what I paid for (and that is being generous)!
I don’t have a darn clue where all the money adds up on this… You shouldn’t have paid a cent for labor until delivery, and you should have paid 1/10 of what you “did” on parts…. A full turbo setup with off the shelf parts should cost you roughly $3000 including a quality longblock. If you went with some really outrageous turbo accessories you are looking up to $5000 here, but that seems extreme to me as I have less than $2000 into my turbo system/longblock. The trans setup shouldn’t have been much more than $1800 in parts…. The rest of the money would all be considered labor in my book. Chalk up anything more than that quote above to be labor and feel good shiny parts, because you got overcharged or over chromed if you paid more than that.
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Do you have any idea how much Dean's way cost me over going with PROVEN ZZP components?
Please don’t play this game… You went with “Dean” for some reason, I don’t know why, but if you wanted “Proven ZZP parts” then go to ZZP.
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Engine alone (long block) cost $2,500 more than ZZP's crate engine and it has a REAL warranty.
Engine warranty doesn’t do much for you as the labor is usually more cost than a new motor is. If you wanted a longblock, go to the local junkyard and get one. There has never been an advantage going with a rebuild, in every case they have been proven to be more of a headache than a bolt in junkyard motor.
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Plus, the NA top end makes 40whp at any RPM over the L67 parts. This is directly from ZZP.
I told you this, john told you this, justin told you this, ZZP put that on their website in 09 when they dyno’d MY grand prix there back to back with L67/L36 intakes to compare. Don’t play games, you went to Dean trusting him blindly (you said yourself you “dropped your car off with a stranger”). Dean has never produced any performance 3800 car out of his shop, and to my knowledge he even has limited turbo experience.
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The intake and IC set up is another $2,000 over a traditional setup. I even supplied perfectly good parts for the IC set up but they were not used. Funny, I haven't seen them since.... Again, Dean disregarded my input and built it his way. His reason? "I dont trust anyones engines".
Disregarded your input? I don’t see how a builder disregards anything… The few cars I have built were NOT the way I would have done them, but I did it to the best of my ability their way knowing it was what the customer wanted. I call BS here, or this Dean guy is just a grade A hack.
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Whats the point of paying someone to do a SPECIFIC job only to get a bunch of (half-assed) "freebie's"
I smell BS here. Lots of it.
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Did you tell the lawyer that you insisted the car be delivered that weekend, finished or not? Kind of implies "as is" to me.
I would have to say this is a full “as is” deal. The blown out deadline is pretty bull crap but still I don’t think there was any deception on the status of this custom car at the time.
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For the last comment, are you telling me you had the return line run down and under the trans like mine is currently?
“under the trans” is pretty confusing really. The pictures you have are pretty hard to follow… The line should fall under the turbo, and go directly towards the passenger side of the car (on top of the trans), end up over where the front exhaust bends off the front head, then drop down sharply to the oil pan from there. It should go more or less west to east in the car, with no part of it pointing upwards… you may have problems with it being somewhat flat under the turbo, which could present problems… hard to say without seeing anything clearly.
I have tried hard to explain myself in a clear an concise manner. it seems to me that even though I have posted the information, people seem to overlook it and I am blamed for what happened. I dont see Dean explaining anything and I am the one left picking up the pieces.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-14-2012).]
Dag, I wish you would've just kept that car original and modified a much lesser example of a fiero. With all the work you've done you could've had both now and one would actually work and look smoking good!
I truly wish you good luck with getting a resolution to this mess.
Dean is smart, The absolute best thing to do once notified of pending litigation is to remain silent on the issue, and let the courts figure it out.
Dean responded on page 10..........
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Originally posted by whodeanie:
to everyone following this thread, I have not responded to any of this crap because I feel my work speeks for its self and I have not ever trash talk anyone in an open forum. my only regret is that I built a bad ass car for someone that will never care about the blood, sweet and custom design work that went into it. and then I did alot of work for free to make him happy and he just threatens me with a lawyer to get out of paying me what was owed? I guess I will see you in Court! this is the only thing I will say about it.
have a nice life, Karma is a ***** !
I'm not taking sides..... I think you both share the blame for what happened with your car. I have no comment on all of the things you are complaining about as I've only heard your side of the facts. What I have a problem with is Dean taking on too many jobs at one time. I'm not sure why you felt you should jump to the head of the line in the first place, There are others who have been waiting allot longer than 6 months to get their cars finished....
I'm sure your cost for a Lawyer will be more than any judgement you might receive..... I think you will have to go to Georgia to sue Dean, not make him come to Florida
Dean's response was to extremely generic with "see you in court" He did not make any direct responses to any of the claims, but kept it short and generic. He has since remained silent
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Originally posted by DL10:
I'm not taking sides..... I think you both share the blame for what happened with your car. I have no comment on all of the things you are complaining about as I've only heard your side of the facts. What I have a problem with is Dean taking on too many jobs at one time. I'm not sure why you felt you should jump to the head of the line in the first place, There are others who have been waiting allot longer than 6 months to get their cars finished....
I'm sure your cost for a Lawyer will be more than any judgement you might receive..... I think you will have to go to Georgia to sue Dean, not make him come to Florida
Dean's response was to extremely generic with "see you in court" He did not make any direct responses to any of the claims, but kept it short and generic. He has since remained silent
Dean has always let his work speak for itself. That is what I always liked about Dean, he never felt the need to put down other vendors work to make his look better. No One can make everyone happy all the time. This is the first time I'm aware of a unhappy customer of Deans.
For all the current Whodeanie's customers please pay attention to the following:
I have NOTHING to do about how Dean decides to take on new work. Nothing, nadda, zip. So you have to take it up with him, not me. I asked about a build, he said it would cost X amount, take X amount of time, and he could start at X date. I sympathize with you.... I really really do. But all this animosity directed toward me is misplaced. I bet when asked why your builds were behind, he used me as the excuse. Now that I am out of the way, who will be the next scapegoat?
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 10-14-2012).]
Wait, lemme think... errr Jimmy Hoffa? Obviously I did based what I read here. Why does anyone choose a shop to work on their car? So you are implying what exactly? Come on, don't be shy....
Quite honestly I think you made a mistake. Based on what I have read here both the scope and timeline of your build were outside of what was realistic coming out of Dean's shop right now. Sure Dean has built some 3800 cars and has done some fantastic body mods on Fieros but how many turbo cars has he built and what's the current timeline for most of the cars in his shop right now? It doesn't take a lot of reading here to figure out that both of those factors were not stacked in your favor. Would you have sent your car to Dark Horizon for a clean 3800 swap?
Now don't get me wrong it's just as much the responsibility of the builder to be realistic about what they are capable of and not promise something they can't deliver. I just get a little perturbed when someone starts a build, doesn't let their chosen builder complete it and then blames the builder for any and all issues.
Think about it this way. Dean has many satisfied customers. Enough in fact that you chose him for your build. You are the first person on the forum to have a build with Dean not be completed to the owners satisfaction. It's obvious that you were a factor in this build.
And now I an done reading your thread. I hope I'm wrong and you are able to enjoy your car at some point.
P.S. thanks for getting my ratings into the triple digits. I have been stuck at 99 for at least a year now.
Trying not to have a biased opinion it seems pretty clear to me. To get the BVM's business dean quoted a pretty short time line but agreed that it would be top priority. Dean is obviously broke so he needs to tack on as many extras as he can including custom parts coming from the "house". He's not going to make as large of a profit margin buying stuff from other vendors like ZZP. Now if Dean is really strapped for cash he isn't going to turn people away that are willing to give him cash up front. He already has BVM's money so his project can sit on the side while he gets others started. The cycle continues, I've seen it before. Customers get locked in.
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Now don't get me wrong it's just as much the responsibility of the builder to be realistic about what they are capable of and not promise something they can't deliver. I just get a little perturbed when someone starts a build, doesn't let their chosen builder complete it and then blames the builder for any and all issues.
What is acceptable to you? At what point do you start to worry? It's a lot harder to get your money back if its already been spent years before.
.... Original quote for the work was "about 10k". ...
Did that included the engine and parts for the swap? If so then I think it is a low price for a super hi-po detailed turbo custom 3800 install. The engine build alone could cost near that. I think you both had a gross miscommunication issue on the tally of parts/labor cost as project went on and order changed. Then you have the labor cost for the extras (suspension, body mods) and it adds up. Again I think it is sad that this ended up this way. I see Dean's issues with delay after delay and not keeping his committed dates but that is super common (unfortunately) with many shops like that. Then is you at the other scale of most impatient customer on the planet per your own words then I guess this was probably inevitable.
I can't, and won't, even try to ascertain who is to blame but there is one thing I know for certain...there are three sides (minimum) to every story and this one holds true to form...yours, his, and the truth somewhere inbetween. I am not sure what you intend to accomplish from your contact with an attorney/lawsuit but if Dean's situation is as bad as you made it appear (you ahad to give Dean $300 so he had gas money as he is broke) what do you stand to gain? You cannot get water from a rock, or in this situation, money from someone that has none.
I was really hoping that this build came out with everyone being happy as it seemed to be quite a car indeed! I love the way it looks both physically and in the engine bay! I hope you get it to where you are happy with it. And when you do you need to get it dynoed if for no other reason we all want to see what it can do!
Alex, I created a professional Excel spreadsheet for Dean to use on his builds. It makes it easy to track parts, payments, expenses & the final bill. So there should be no reason not to stay on top of it. This was given to him back in June. Again, you guys have no idea how hard I tried to make this work. You guys keep assuming that I am being anything but 100% honest. Well, you are wrong.
Anyway, I am sick of defending my actions while Dean gets made out to be the victim here. Poor, poor Dean.
Also, to the vendor(s) that now refuse to provide parts and services to my friends, how pathetic are you? They had NOTHING to do with this build, they have nothing to do with Whodeanies and to be honest it didn't involve you!
Its just hilarious at this point... get screwed over, get shunned as if it were my own doing.. You people are a real piece of work.
For those that can think for themselves and have been kind enough to PM or (apparently at great risk) post here, I thank you.
That drain is just flat retarded... this guy just proved to me he is completely clueless at turbo install basics..
Do what you can to get the drain brought out in front of or to the passenger side of the trans... after that you will most likely need to relocate the oil pan entry up higher, as yours is slightly lower than mine and mine sucks... you may have an advantage due to the fact you can get a bit more direct fall in theory.
If I every was going to do a build like this I'd want some kind of contract up front.
1: Line items for parts/cost to be used, prior to work starting. 2: Labor cost/ hour (hourly estimate not to exceed 20% +/-) 3. Delivery date (+$xx/day if early, -$xx a day if late) 4. Total price estimate (not to exceed 20% +/-)
Also include some sort of notes that any changes must be agreed to in writing by both parties and would alter the agreement.
50% of the estimate paid up front, 50% paid upon delivery.
To be paying/receiving this kind of money you HAVE to have a contract! I mean, if you know what you're doing would someone doing this work not want to sign a contract? It protects you both! I wouldn't do business with them if they didn't.
The way things sit now it's a big mess and the lawyer fees for sifting through an inch thick of paperwork is going to be costly. PMs, Emails, texts and fine and good, but without a contract making a case is going to be tricky as there are too many things that can be wishy-washy.
I do hope the two of you have a successful resolution to this.
If I every was going to do a build like this I'd want some kind of contract up front.
1: Line items for parts/cost to be used, prior to work starting. 2: Labor cost/ hour (hourly estimate not to exceed 20% +/-) 3. Delivery date (+$xx/day if early, -$xx a day if late) 4. Total price estimate (not to exceed 20% +/-)
Also include some sort of notes that any changes must be agreed to in writing by both parties and would alter the agreement.
50% of the estimate paid up front, 50% paid upon delivery.
To be paying/receiving this kind of money you HAVE to have a contract! I mean, if you know what you're doing would someone doing this work not want to sign a contract? It protects you both! I wouldn't do business with them if they didn't.
Hmmm...that sounds like a state law.....
I rode Dean for months trying to get a build contract. Never got one in 6 months. I dare him to say otherwise.
That drain is just flat retarded... this guy just proved to me he is completely clueless at turbo install basics..
Do what you can to get the drain brought out in front of or to the passenger side of the trans... after that you will most likely need to relocate the oil pan entry up higher, as yours is slightly lower than mine and mine sucks... you may have an advantage due to the fact you can get a bit more direct fall in theory.
I agree. Its my first order of business when the car arrives later today. Funny how most keep overlooking this stuff.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-14-2012).]
Shouldn't have paid anything before you had something written up, lesson learned.
I just think of Judge Judy, you go in, try to show her the inch think binder and explain, she cuts you off and says:
Judge Judy: "Where is the contract of the price and work to be performed?" You: "He wouldn't give me one! I kept asking and he would just..." Judge Judy: "And you paid him xx thousand dollars!? Well then you got what you paid for!!! Case Dismissed!"
[This message has been edited by Fiero42 (edited 09-14-2012).]
I would have to agree Judge Judy (which is about the only place a case like this belongs) would throw this out as a case of buyers remorse and no contract...
I am not going to go back and quote it, but the **** talking about the junk intake setup was typically blown off with "well, its the only way to make it look good" or some other excuse... then the pictures of it were spammed over any thread that had anything to do with 3800s....
I think it is fairly obvious that Dean meant somewhat well here (while our friend loyde was just obviously ripping people off for years to run off to tie-quan-do to get his freak on). He does do some crap work building turbo cars, but I dont think his "bit off more than he can chew" mistake should reflect on future customers, financially or reputation wise.
So long story short... Fault him for crap work, fault yourself for overpaying, but in reality you made out at about a "middle of the road" situation in terms of service. I really see this as a wash aka bad deal on both sides of the fence, the fact that you have to legally bother him is not helping you, and may or may not hurt him.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Also, to the vendor(s) that now refuse to provide parts and services to my friends, how pathetic are you? They had NOTHING to do with this build, they have nothing to do with Whodeanies and to be honest it didn't involve you!
Looks like you are living up to my character assessment of you...
For those who do not know, I am the pathetic vendor who refused to sell my brake kit to the racing team that BV MotorSports is a member of. All my communication was with the team owner, I never said which team member I had the concern with (but the owner knew immediately).
BV MotorSports hasn't even asked me what the issue was, he just thinks I am a "pathetic" vendor...
He thinks I am trying to pick sides in the Whodeanie/BV MotorSports drama, when I have had zero involvement and zero interest in this fiasco. I personally think that both parties contributed to the current outcome.
BV MotorSports says I am a pathetic vendor, so it must be true!
I would have to agree Judge Judy (which is about the only place a case like this belongs) would throw this out as a case of buyers remorse and no contract...
I am not going to go back and quote it, but the **** talking about the junk intake setup was typically blown off with "well, its the only way to make it look good" or some other excuse... then the pictures of it were spammed over any thread that had anything to do with 3800s....
I think it is fairly obvious that Dean meant somewhat well here (while our friend loyde was just obviously ripping people off for years to run off to tie-quan-do to get his freak on). He does do some crap work building turbo cars, but I dont think his "bit off more than he can chew" mistake should reflect on future customers, financially or reputation wise.
So long story short... Fault him for crap work, fault yourself for overpaying, but in reality you made out at about a "middle of the road" situation in terms of service. I really see this as a wash aka bad deal on both sides of the fence, the fact that you have to legally bother him is not helping you, and may or may not hurt him.
God help me, I agree with DH. BV, please take what I say as me trying to be genuinely helpful.
I have no idea how a professional shop doing this for a living would have been able to do a full turbo 3800 and non Fiero non 3800 trans swap for $10k. Most of the guys charging for this charge close to that for a base 3800SC build. Having conversed with Dean while he was horribly overloaded (and yes I even asked you to check on my tail lights because I hadn't heard from him in a while), I can say your timeline was pretty far fetched for this kind of build as well. I could see 6 weeks working for a SC swap, but for something that requires this amount of custom work I don't see it happening. As you've pointed out, he didn't use a lot of off the shelf parts, and it takes time and effort to make these parts.
Are you happy, no that's obvious. However, you still have at least some decent work there, right? I'm sure Dean wanted a better outcome, and I'm not passing judgment or making excuses for anything, but between his other cars, your fairly unrealistic timeframe, and other issues that came up, it wasn't going to go that way in anywhere near your timeframe. Look at my car, I'm at the year and a half mark. Dave originally told me he'd like to get it done as soon as possible, but we NEVER actually agreed on a timeframe. Dave literally said the car wasn't leaving until he felt it was perfect, no matter how long it took. Given what happened to me and my car before, I was ok with this. The car is now almost done, after he had to go back and correct some issues with some of the custom parts he used (parts he bought not parts he made). I'd get anxious and ask, and he'd tell me what was going on.
Sometimes I'd get frustrated because he was working on Charlie's car, but I'd have to remember that it wasn't reasonable for someone to shut down their entire shop and only work on one car at a time, no matter how long it took or what was holding things up. You did do what DL10 said, you jumped in and put your car ahead of people that had been there MUCH longer than you. I understand Dean agreed to a timeframe, he really shouldn't have, but you did have unreasonable expectations from go. You never would have been able to get anyone else to even try to accomplish what you wanted, for the amount you wanted, in the timeframe you wanted. Remeber the old addage, "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have quality, but you can only pick 2 out of the 3."
As far as courts go, without a written contract you're going to be SOL. The work happened in GA and Dean's business is located in GA, so you'll have a hard time suing him in FL. All he has to do is have his attorney file a change of venue, as I doubt he ever claimed he was doing business in FL either. This doesn't really count as doing internet business unless he has his business set up that way (meaning mail order). I'm just trying to save you from a lot of grief here. It would have been best to work things out with him. Now, you're being so inflammatory that you're probably going to scare off any of the other guys that could / would have helped you recover the car mechanically.
Good luck man, I'm damn sorry your car isn't everything you wanted. Been there.
Looks like you are living up to my character assessment of you...
For those who do not know, I am the pathetic vendor who refused to sell my brake kit to the racing team that BV MotorSports is a member of. All my communication was with the team owner, I never said which team member I had the concern with (but the owner knew immediately).
BV MotorSports hasn't even asked me what the issue was, he just thinks I am a "pathetic" vendor...
He thinks I am trying to pick sides in the Whodeanie/BV MotorSports drama, when I have had zero involvement and zero interest in this fiasco. I personally think that both parties contributed to the current outcome.
BV MotorSports says I am a pathetic vendor, so it must be true!
Did I mention you at all? What the hell is this all about? Feeling guilty about something? I could give a damn about your brake kit, it has nothing to do with me. Point of fact, I dont even think I have ever even spoken with or dealt with you.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-14-2012).]
God help me, I agree with DH. BV, please take what I say as me trying to be genuinely helpful.
I have no idea how a professional shop doing this for a living would have been able to do a full turbo 3800 and non Fiero non 3800 trans swap for $10k. Most of the guys charging for this charge close to that for a base 3800SC build. Having conversed with Dean while he was horribly overloaded (and yes I even asked you to check on my tail lights because I hadn't heard from him in a while), I can say your timeline was pretty far fetched for this kind of build as well. I could see 6 weeks working for a SC swap, but for something that requires this amount of custom work I don't see it happening. As you've pointed out, he didn't use a lot of off the shelf parts, and it takes time and effort to make these parts.
Are you happy, no that's obvious. However, you still have at least some decent work there, right? I'm sure Dean wanted a better outcome, and I'm not passing judgment or making excuses for anything, but between his other cars, your fairly unrealistic timeframe, and other issues that came up, it wasn't going to go that way in anywhere near your timeframe. Look at my car, I'm at the year and a half mark. Dave originally told me he'd like to get it done as soon as possible, but we NEVER actually agreed on a timeframe. Dave literally said the car wasn't leaving until he felt it was perfect, no matter how long it took. Given what happened to me and my car before, I was ok with this. The car is now almost done, after he had to go back and correct some issues with some of the custom parts he used (parts he bought not parts he made). I'd get anxious and ask, and he'd tell me what was going on.
Sometimes I'd get frustrated because he was working on Charlie's car, but I'd have to remember that it wasn't reasonable for someone to shut down their entire shop and only work on one car at a time, no matter how long it took or what was holding things up. You did do what DL10 said, you jumped in and put your car ahead of people that had been there MUCH longer than you. I understand Dean agreed to a timeframe, he really shouldn't have, but you did have unreasonable expectations from go. You never would have been able to get anyone else to even try to accomplish what you wanted, for the amount you wanted, in the timeframe you wanted. Remeber the old addage, "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, you can have quality, but you can only pick 2 out of the 3."
As far as courts go, without a written contract you're going to be SOL. The work happened in GA and Dean's business is located in GA, so you'll have a hard time suing him in FL. All he has to do is have his attorney file a change of venue, as I doubt he ever claimed he was doing business in FL either. This doesn't really count as doing internet business unless he has his business set up that way (meaning mail order). I'm just trying to save you from a lot of grief here. It would have been best to work things out with him. Now, you're being so inflammatory that you're probably going to scare off any of the other guys that could / would have helped you recover the car mechanically.
Good luck man, I'm damn sorry your car isn't everything you wanted. Been there.
I understand you think you are trying to help. Fact remains you, along with most everyone else, are making some MASSIVE assumptions. Dean set the date, Dean set the price, Dean pretty much did everything. I just got sick and tired of the delays and excuses.
But whatever, I'd have a better chance convincing a wall into spontaneous combustion at this point.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I understand you think you are trying to help. Fact remains you, along with most everyone else, are making some MASSIVE assumptions. Dean set the date, Dean set the price, Dean pretty much did everything. I just got sick and tired of the delays and excuses.
But whatever, I'd have a better chance convincing a wall into spontaneous combustion at this point.
If that's true, then he shot himself in the foot. Hopefully you'll get your car the way you want it.
That drain is just flat retarded... this guy just proved to me he is completely clueless at turbo install basics..
Do what you can to get the drain brought out in front of or to the passenger side of the trans... after that you will most likely need to relocate the oil pan entry up higher, as yours is slightly lower than mine and mine sucks... you may have an advantage due to the fact you can get a bit more direct fall in theory.
That drain is just flat retarded... this guy just proved to me he is completely clueless at turbo install basics..
Do what you can to get the drain brought out in front of or to the passenger side of the trans... after that you will most likely need to relocate the oil pan entry up higher, as yours is slightly lower than mine and mine sucks... you may have an advantage due to the fact you can get a bit more direct fall in theory.
Unintentional double post, or reiterating what you said before?
Its not the cars fault, its the builder. She will be fixed, don't doubt that for a second!
