Ok so look at this pic here LIM hole is you PCV ! now look at the intercooler ! see the 2 holes, the one where the RTV is all messed up is where the origional PCV was trying to blow throught for sure the other smaller hole is where the PCV need to go throught but in your case it never will due to the custom intake blocking the top !!
Solution is the hole in the LIM as shown block it off there now you need to tap a line into that PCV runner very easy to do and will look much better while yo uhave the LIM off blow smoke into the PCV hole you will see where it comes down and out to the head along that runner tap your fitting for you PCV system, make sure you run a freash air into the other side somewhere all i did was tap a hole into the valve cover and run a hose from the valve cover to the TB before the throttle plate
my pic above with the SC is no different than if you are running a turbo has to run the same
This is a bit difficult to explain but i hop this helps you out
I am 100% sure its a PCV issue you have not anything else ! you can not block the PCV !!! an engine has push and pull basicly PCV is push and fresh air is pull if you screw with any of that you will have disaster ! you engine is most likely fine but all you gaskets may be leaking oil because you pCV is trying to PUSH out somewhere like it would naturaly
follow my external PCV instructions and see what happens ! I could have this back up and running in 3 hours no need to drop motor !!
another thing i will add the blackness of the oil in your heads is caused by the no PCV system !! no PCV will turn oil black in 1 hour and creates sludge in the motor, i dont think your car was run long enughf to ruin the motor so once you are running again do a few oil changes and filter right away to flush the motor
This is a bit difficult to explain but i hop this helps you out
I am 100% sure its a PCV issue you have not anything else ! you can not block the PCV !!! an engine has push and pull basicly PCV is push and fresh air is pull if you screw with any of that you will have disaster ! you engine is most likely fine but all you gaskets may be leaking oil because you pCV is trying to PUSH out somewhere like it would naturaly
follow my external PCV instructions and see what happens ! I could have this back up and running in 3 hours no need to drop motor !!
Thanks, I see what you mean and it makes sense. Man, wouldnt that be a nice break! If that works, I owe you BIG TIME. Unfortunately, with the amount of grit in the motor, we have to break it down to a short block. I don't plan on disturbing the mains & crank. But we are going to drop the pan and pull each rod and piston out to clean the bores and check the rings. Just to be sure.
Thanks, I see what you mean and it makes sense. Man, wouldnt that be a nice break! If that works, I owe you BIG TIME. Unfortunately, with the amount of grit in the motor, we have to break it down to a short block. I don't plan on disturbing the mains & crank. But we are going to drop the pan and pull each rod and piston out to clean the bores and check the rings. Just to be sure.
You have it all there so clean up things get the PCV system working right i think you will be OK, get some liquid epoxy and pour it into the custom intake and it will find any holes work it around untill it starts to harden its like water at first so roll it around make sure you get coverage on the whole intake it will create a smooth shell over the welds and no vacume leaks
as for tearing down the whole motor ! i wouldent if there is damage its already done and any little fileings have worked into areas you will never be able to clean out unless a full rebuild and hot tank
Steve just got to see your post since I spoke with you at Charlies this afternoon....
After seeing those photos I am very concern with the parts that Whodeanies Customs replaced (gasket, bearings, clutch). I habe text message Dean to contact me... I am very comcerned and glad my csr is not there anymore.
Dude I am sorry to see that nightmare and personaly I'd go after the engine builder too.
[This message has been edited by FierociousGT (edited 11-19-2012).]
This is the only way i would go if i build a turbo set up !! this is a holden 3800 intake with custom aluminum upper all 1 peice custom made by ZZP !!! DONT ASK HOW MUCH IT WAS LOL this is custom for a 90MM BBK TB and is exactly what the 900HP ZZp race car has on it, This is kind of top secret whos build this is so i have to shut up now !!! Oh and yes its going into a fireo !
This is the only way i would go if i build a turbo set up !! this is a holden 3800 intake with custom aluminum upper all 1 peice custom made by ZZP !!! DONT ASK HOW MUCH IT WAS LOL this is custom for a 90MM BBK TB and is exactly what the 900HP ZZp race car has on it, This is kind of top secret whos build this is so i have to shut up now !!! Oh and yes its going into a fireo !
Thats badass! Whoever the owner is, they are lucky!
David, thanks. I am still trying to wrap my head around it. Who knows what we will find now that Pandora's Box is open.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Unfortunately, with the amount of grit in the motor, we have to break it down to a short block. I don't plan on disturbing the mains & crank. But we are going to drop the pan and pull each rod and piston out to clean the bores and check the rings. Just to be sure.
If you are going that far into the engine, then you really should replace the mains and cam bearings too. At this point it would be minimal cost, but if you are concerned with debris and grit in the engine, then you should tear it all down, clean it up and then reassemble with all new parts. It would suck to be this far in it now and miss something that causes you to tear it down again later.
If you decide to do a full tear down and rebuild i sugest getting the entire rotating assembly balanced , Crank, flywheel,harmonic balancer, pistons and rods all as 1 make for a good motor in the long run and for $300 its not a big expence in the grand sceam of things !
I never noticed on you build what harmonoic balancer was used ?? I hope he left the L67 balancer with the L67 motor if you are running a L26 single belt harmonic this is another issue with your current set up you will definatly have to get it all balanced !!
The L67 balancer and L26 NA balancer are compleatly different and have weight taken out of them in different spots to be used on the 2 different motors this 40grams of differance will through the balance out big time and blow your crank bearing .
get the motor fully balanced full rebuild, use aluminum LIM gasgets
Also i didnt see a fill point for your intercooler system ?? the rad placemnet is fine but you need to be able to purge all the air out of the lines or your pump will fail very soon look at my build thread as to what i used for a fill point ! It takes a long time to purge all the air out so make sure its done right
still reading your build to see if i can find any other small things i can help with
You have it all there so clean up things get the PCV system working right i think you will be OK, get some liquid epoxy and pour it into the custom intake and it will find any holes work it around untill it starts to harden its like water at first so roll it around make sure you get coverage on the whole intake it will create a smooth shell over the welds and no vacume leaks
as for tearing down the whole motor ! i wouldent if there is damage its already done and any little fileings have worked into areas you will never be able to clean out unless a full rebuild and hot tank
That's what I'm thinking too^^^^^^^^^^, but it looks like you're going to go through the whole motor(after seeing the pictures, I can't say that I blame you). Peace of mind is worth a lot.
On a side note, my daughter's Sebring convertible used RTV to seal the transmission pan instead of a gasket. Since your intake was a custom one-off, the RTV was probably an acceptable choice(leaving out a way to vent the crankcase, was not a good deal).
[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 11-20-2012).]
I am going to have the car towed home tomorrow. If I am going to have to go thru the motor, I am going to do it right. On the plus side, I guess I can mount the turbo where I want it now, and make a proper exhaust. Charlie is going to tune it and we are going to use his machine shop guy for the engine work.
Jeez man I can't believe all of this I am reading around here. I know some of these shops that have been doing custom work on fiero's have shown some real skill and cool mods but having to rebuild an engine that JUST GOT SWAPPED into a car after paying lots of cash to get it done is just freakin' takin' the cake. The funny thing is I am NO Fiero expert at all but I had been considering doing a couple 3800 swaps in my shop along with my own to make some cash and help pay for parts for my own car. I can't believe some of these stories I read on here about shops charging TONS of money for this kind of thing and then not only not completing the job but doing a crappy job of it as well and finally taking the customers money!! I am not speaking specifically of your car BV but quite a few folks in general here. What the hell is going on here? How the hell do you even get away with that? If I freakin' took a stick of gum from the grocery store I would have the feds at my door LOL. Really sorry to hear this BV good luck with your rebuild, for the kind of money it sounds like many of you guys are paying for these custom installs I would think you would get a brand new freakin' crate motor for the price. I mean good lord there are tons of guys doing the same thing in their backyard with a damn come-a-long hooked to an old oak tree to pull the motor out and winding up with better builds. It is crazy how this is happening and not just one or two shops either. Honestly I also cannot understand how the customers let them get away with it for so long sometimes either. I mean If I had the cash to pay a pro to do this kinda stuff I would EXPECT progress and updates and if I did not I would be down there picking up my car ASAP. Some of these builds go on for more than a year!! How the hell does it take a so called professional tech a YEAR to install a custom engine or whatever? This is just NUTZ>..... Good luck with your build man sorry to hear you are having to deal with this. I certainly hope your new shop does you right. Peace
Some of these builds go on for more than a year!! How the hell does it take a so called professional tech a YEAR to install a custom engine or whatever? Pete
Pete, you think you know how to run a business? or a custom fabrication business? It is nothing as what you think it is. I don't just poop out custom parts and they appear on the car. Sometimes we make the same part 10 times until it is perfect. Who pays for that? I guess I do because I don't charge for the ones that didn't make the cut.
I'm not trying to throw this off topic. I feel bad for BV and I wish him the best in getting his car back to his expectations, but I'm going to put some things in perspective for you...
There are Fiero shops out there that are beyond fed up with Fiero owners attitiudes. They take a ton of crap because their cars aren't getting built fast enough. Those shop's owners wake up at 4am everyday. Go to work by 6am. Spend the entire day working....sometimes missing breakfast and lunch. Finally, the shop closes at 5pm. Then the Fiero work begins.....from 5pm to 8pm the Fieros are getting worked on. Oh, let's actually eat some dinner by 8:30pm. The shop owner's kids keep asking why Daddy is working so hard and never gets a warm meal. By 9:30pm that owner is passed out from exhaustion and ready to do it again tomorrow..... ....and then you wonder why that shop owner flips out when he takes some crap for not working weekends to catch up on the car that is taking a year to build. Then that moment of truth hits the shop owner.......He realizes that he already makes six figures a year working his day job....and less than $6,000 a year on the Fieros. Where is the reason to continue building Fieros? My guess would be because he enjoys it. So, that would make it a hobby. So chill out.
Dave, I`m only asking this because I am curious and I know you can`t speak for other shops that work on Fieros but if money is being paid for work to be performed on a car, why would Fieros only get worked on in the evening, as opposed to getting the same treatment of any other car. If I remember correctly, you service BMWs as well and I would tend to believe that maybe that type repair is a lot more profitable to get first billing, but for guys who work on domestics, I would think that the custom work on Fieros would garner a pretty penny, thus making it profitable to finish those in a timely period.
Edit: Dave, I just read your thread and I say "smart move" and now I understand better.
[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 11-21-2012).]
Dave, I`m only asking this because I am curious and I know you can`t speak for other shops that work on Fieros but if money is being paid for work to be performed on a car, why would Fieros only get worked on in the evening, as opposed to getting the same treatment of any other car. If I remember correctly, you service BMWs as well and I would tend to believe that maybe that type repair is a lot more profitable to get first billing, but for guys who work on domestics, I would think that the custom work on Fieros would garner a pretty penny, thus making it profitable to finish those in a timely period.
We were charging $50 per hour to work on Fieros...and $100-$150 per hour for German cars. With the Haus of Guru, I made it clear that it was a side project. As of the new year, our rates are the same for both Fieros and German cars. We have done quite a lot of repairs on stock Fieros in the past years....clutches, water pumps etc.
I don't want to come off sounding like as ass. I'm not sure how other Fiero shops run their business and it is none of my business unless it effects me directly. I just got a liitle annoyed because some people have pm'ed me asking why some swaps take a year, others take a few weeks. There are many variables to concider as to why the delays.
For persepective anyone want to venture a guess how much West Coast Customs would charge to do Madcurls orange beauty? I don't have the answer but I'll bet someone can chime in what they charge for what they do. On TV we see the quick builds, I wonder how many average citizen cars wait 6 months-a year- or more to get done. I remain jealous and hold utmost respect for those craftsmen/women out there who know how to do the swaps and body work.
Steve just got to see your post since I spoke with you at Charlies this afternoon....
After seeing those photos I am very concern with the parts that Whodeanies Customs replaced (gasket, bearings, clutch). I habe text message Dean to contact me... I am very comcerned and glad my csr is not there anymore.
Dude I am sorry to see that nightmare and personaly I'd go after the engine builder too.
If you feel that Dean has ripped you off, treated you poorly, kept your property etc.. please contact the office below. The more of us that contact them, the stronger the case. I already have my case number and spoke with Jack I believe.
Georgia Governor's Office of Consumer Protection 2 Martin Luther King Jr. Drive, Suite 356 Atlanta, Georgia 30334-9077
Tel: 404-651-8600 or 1-800-869-1123 (toll-free in Georgia, outside of the metro Atlanta calling area)
Fax: 404-651-9018
Office hours: 8:00am-5:00pm, Monday-Friday. Telephone counselors are available between 8:30am-5:00pm weekdays.
Another lie.. balance shaft hasnt been eliminated: (notice all the crud in all the pics... remember this is supposed to be a custom, "pro built" engine)
Look at all the oil!
Notice the bores arent cross-hatched.. they are hand sanded!
Porting? What porting?
Poor thing...
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-21-2012).]
Pete, you think you know how to run a business? or a custom fabrication business? It is nothing as what you think it is. I don't just poop out custom parts and they appear on the car. Sometimes we make the same part 10 times until it is perfect. Who pays for that? I guess I do because I don't charge for the ones that didn't make the cut.
I'm not trying to throw this off topic. I feel bad for BV and I wish him the best in getting his car back to his expectations, but I'm going to put some things in perspective for you...
There are Fiero shops out there that are beyond fed up with Fiero owners attitiudes. They take a ton of crap because their cars aren't getting built fast enough. Those shop's owners wake up at 4am everyday. Go to work by 6am. Spend the entire day working....sometimes missing breakfast and lunch. Finally, the shop closes at 5pm. Then the Fiero work begins.....from 5pm to 8pm the Fieros are getting worked on. Oh, let's actually eat some dinner by 8:30pm. The shop owner's kids keep asking why Daddy is working so hard and never gets a warm meal. By 9:30pm that owner is passed out from exhaustion and ready to do it again tomorrow..... ....and then you wonder why that shop owner flips out when he takes some crap for not working weekends to catch up on the car that is taking a year to build. Then that moment of truth hits the shop owner.......He realizes that he already makes six figures a year working his day job....and less than $6,000 a year on the Fieros. Where is the reason to continue building Fieros? My guess would be because he enjoys it. So, that would make it a hobby. So chill out.
Dave
Nothing wrong at all with that statement. Only thing is it should be said up front and in writing between you and the customer so when the complaints come in it can be refered back to. Still years is rediculous though.
On the bright side, if there is one to be found, you will know personally every inch of that motor and what has been done to it. Keep your chin up and keep plugging away. We all want to see that thing finished and on the road!
BV that port job sux and is very incomplete also that engine look to have over 100k in it. I bought a 15k motor and its spotless inside. paid a little more for it but well worth it, added my cam, timing chain, and locally ported heads and been running beautiful for years. This is way past a he said he said this is criminal! Lots $$$ for nothing.
Yeah, that head porting job is NOT very good, IMO, but it is way better than the porting job I received.
My head job was free...(LOL I said head job) but my mechanic should have left them alone as I requested.
Don't go to a custom porting shop, IMO. I think you will just be throwing your money away.
Anyhoo, my W-body store CNC heads are awesome and I would highly recommend going with them or back to a stock refurbished set.
Thanks guys.. I appreciate the support. Here is the plan. I am going to get the engine back up and running as cheaply as I can, get it tuned on low boost. I want to be able to atleast drive it a little bit. Remember, I have owned it since March and have driven it twice. And that was just enough to get it to the DMV and to Charlies. Then I am going to start get thru the holidays and start collecting the parts to build another engine. Probably a ZZP crate motor and N/A top swap. All the Whodeanies stuff will be up for sale when I get started. Granted, if no one wants to buy it, I understand why.
Pete, you think you know how to run a business? or a custom fabrication business? It is nothing as what you think it is. I don't just poop out custom parts and they appear on the car. Sometimes we make the same part 10 times until it is perfect. Who pays for that? I guess I do because I don't charge for the ones that didn't make the cut.
I'm not trying to throw this off topic. I feel bad for BV and I wish him the best in getting his car back to his expectations, but I'm going to put some things in perspective for you...
There are Fiero shops out there that are beyond fed up with Fiero owners attitiudes. They take a ton of crap because their cars aren't getting built fast enough. Those shop's owners wake up at 4am everyday. Go to work by 6am. Spend the entire day working....sometimes missing breakfast and lunch. Finally, the shop closes at 5pm. Then the Fiero work begins.....from 5pm to 8pm the Fieros are getting worked on. Oh, let's actually eat some dinner by 8:30pm. The shop owner's kids keep asking why Daddy is working so hard and never gets a warm meal. By 9:30pm that owner is passed out from exhaustion and ready to do it again tomorrow..... ....and then you wonder why that shop owner flips out when he takes some crap for not working weekends to catch up on the car that is taking a year to build. Then that moment of truth hits the shop owner.......He realizes that he already makes six figures a year working his day job....and less than $6,000 a year on the Fieros. Where is the reason to continue building Fieros? My guess would be because he enjoys it. So, that would make it a hobby. So chill out.
Dave
Dave, Actually in answer to your question...YES I do know how to run a business as that is exactly what I have been doing for the past several years. I fabricate custom parts and CNC machine stuff in my shop about every day when I have work coming in. I just recently bought a full blown vertical machining center for the shop and that is in addition to all the other equipment including tubing benders, tubing rollers, notchers, my industrial Tig welder, and my manual machine tools and all of the rest of the stuff out there that has taken me YEARS to acquire. I guess my comments ruffled your feathers because I know you remember when I questioned your pricing for a swap awhile back. To be quite honest with you my comments were NOT directed to you specifically. From what I can tell you have one of the better reputations so I will take your comments with a grain of salt. I gotta be honest with you tho, I don't care what your situation is or how you run your business and at what hours if you take a customers money to do a job you get it done ASAP. Whether it is custom fabrication or sticking a used 3800SC motor into the car and making it run (something that has been done far too many times around here by amateurs for it to be all that time consuming) you do it as quickly and efficiently as possible. You can't tell me that it should take a year to do ANYTHING to a car in this realm here short of the most highly customized chopped and engine swapped interior swapped and show painted customs. I have read MANY times here where a guy pays someone to swap a 3800 or other common swap into their car and not only does it take more than a year they have to wind up chasing down the builder to find out any progress. If you cannot work on the car RIGHT NOW you have no business keeping it at your shop unless arrangements have been made for storage beforehand. It sounds like many of these cars are just sitting there for months on end with nothing getting done to them. You can argue all you want about my posting but you cannot tell me this is any sort of good business practice. You are either a pro who works on cars and custom engine swaps or you are not. I am quite sure the owners of all of these cars are quite pissed off about it and several have come on here to voice their concerns often to be rebuked by supporters of these same shops. It just really puts a bad spin on the whole fiero scene if you ask me.
BV again I am sorry to hear of your troubles with the car. Really surprised that the internals of the engine are not what they were supposed to be IE porting and custom internals etc. Good luck with it man..peace
Thanks guys.. I appreciate the support. Here is the plan. I am going to get the engine back up and running as cheaply as I can, get it tuned on low boost. I want to be able to atleast drive it a little bit. Remember, I have owned it since March and have driven it twice. And that was just enough to get it to the DMV and to Charlies. Then I am going to start get thru the holidays and start collecting the parts to build another engine. Probably a ZZP crate motor and N/A top swap. All the Whodeanies stuff will be up for sale when I get started. Granted, if no one wants to buy it, I understand why.
Sorry dude as I knew you wanted the ZZP motor combination in the first place.
However, if cost is a concern, then go with ED Morad on Ebay. He will be much better on the wallet and a better crap shoot then a junkyard engine. That is, If you still will be using your existing parts like the ST1 Cam, double timing chain, etc?
If you are NOT going to use your current exhaust setup then the ZZP combination of front and rear PLOG is what I would do, but you would still need to get a custom cross over made
Can I use your pics as a reference for the Georgia District Attorney?
Pretty huh.... Go 4 it as It's public domain....as long as you don't Subpoena me.. LOL I didn't see Nothin.
Not sure what good it will do as I don't think you can sue over a bad haircut. A Port job is in the same category...I think. There are probably better pics from the W-body Store.
When I get mine swapped over I'll show you a real Bad porting Job.
Look at all the crud in the upper left.... rebuilt my ass...
Correct me if I am wrong but it APPEARS that there is a crack in this picture between the intake port and the water jacket? It sure looks like a crack to me... Either way I agree with the others those heads are shot. Amazing that this was supposed to be a performance build. Man that sucks. Peace
THAT mess though, uh, I don't think that'll naturally heal itself. Lol
True, Not sure how it will play out in court.
I recently ordered a few of custom parts and some of them were Jacked up, and some of them were top notch. You win some and you loose some but it is very important that you Learn from past experiences.
Some of those vendors will Never get my business again and I learned to make sure they understand upfront what I expect. Pictures really are the best thing since sliced bread.
Charlie is going to tune it and we are going to use his machine shop guy for the engine work.
