Those heads are throwaways now... Scrap weight is all they are worth.
I agree as you can see in one pic is almost like he ground the drums in opposite corners and created a hump in between. I wouldn't go to ZZP for a crate motor unless you really want to spend more dollars than needed. I bought a documented 15k series 2 SC motor and 42k series 3 SC motor both were well priced. The series 2 was 600.00 with paper work showing vin, miles, and price of course. The 05 42k series 3 came documented the same way for 1200.00. Both were just bolt my parts on and forget about it with the bottom end with the reliability of GM. Now if you were doing forged everything or low mileage motors aren't available then fine go aftermarket. But it's well documented what stock bottom ends are capable of.
I agree as you can see in one pic is almost like he ground the drums in opposite corners and created a hump in between. I wouldn't go to ZZP for a crate motor unless you really want to spend more dollars than needed. I bought a documented 15k series 2 SC motor and 42k series 3 SC motor both were well priced. The series 2 was 600.00 with paper work showing vin, miles, and price of course. The 05 42k series 3 came documented the same way for 1200.00. Both were just bolt my parts on and forget about it with the bottom end with the reliability of GM. Now if you were doing forged everything or low mileage motors aren't available then fine go aftermarket. But it's well documented what stock bottom ends are capable of.
Whom did you buy from? I got my 90K engine and trans for $750 complete dropout with all the accessories. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another 60k and under from a "honest" seller or reputable dealer. Totaled cars that still run and drive are good too. If you go L36 then you can be in the $300 price range.
[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 11-21-2012).]
So on the PCV problem. My ZZP full stack IC is the new version with the holes for the PCV system. However, my custom UIM does not support the PCV system. I have been searching for a while to get this figured out. It looks like I can fill the PCV holes in the LIM and put barb fittings in both valve covers, T them together and then put a inline PCV valve (just like the 3.4TDC) and then connect it to the TB. I found a thread on the 3800 forum modding the L67 throttle body.
Since you are basically redoing a lot of the swap. I would suggest moving the turbo oil drain in the pan upwards a few inches. I didn't use the oil level sender hole because that is too close to the oil level. I ran our drain near the top of the pan.
PCV !!!!! is your main issue i understand you have a intercooler that has the pcv hole through it most of them do but if you look on ZZPs web stie at there LIM for L67, thast what you have there is a hole redrilled in a different locaton on the LIM then PCV will travel through head and LIM and intercooler !! But in your situation a custom intake has been made that covers the PCV outlet at the top of the intercooler !!
If you are tearing down the motor it is ver easy to drill and tap a brarbed fitting into the PCV runner on the LIM rather than off the valve cover ( wont look clean ) if you post a pic of your LIM I will show you exactly where to drill a hole into the runner its a seperate channel and will be easy to do then run a line off that to a PCV value, and catch can then to a vacume sourse after the TB
follow this exactly !!! you see the PCV hole it on a sepeate tower or runner if you blow smoke through it you will see what i am talking about ! on the side of this tower (runner) drill into casting and tap a nice clean barbed fitting will look super clean then follow my PCV instuctions PIC 1
as for the fresh air in YES tap into firewall side valve cover with atleast a 3/8 line nothing smaller , this side needs to be able to breath fresh air easy so run that hose to you TB before trottle plate or on intake just above MAF ( Has to be after MAF ) I plummed mine into My N* TB
I have done my home work on this trust me !!! a close PCV system is the right way to go no valve breathers ! do some reading valve breathers allow un meterered air to enter the motor not the way the computer is desined to read things ! I will have plenty of people saying i am wrong and valve brethers are fine but ask Ryan at Synister preformance and on a turbo set up you realy want all air entering your motor to be mettered if you follow my insturctions tuneing will be very easy
[This message has been edited by RULOOKIN (edited 11-23-2012).]
Since you are basically redoing a lot of the swap. I would suggest moving the turbo oil drain in the pan upwards a few inches. I didn't use the oil level sender hole because that is too close to the oil level. I ran our drain near the top of the pan.
Dave
Dave is right here too !! many guys use the L26 aluminum oil pan on the L67 motor ( IT FITS NO MODS) this will allow you to drill and tap a drain a bit higher than the oil level indicator hole, you are doing a full tear down anyways so get a L26 3800 aluminum oil pan this is what i used and it fits a L67 block with no mods and clears all mounts this is what you need !
They can not run toghter !! one side is fresh air (LEFT SIDE HOLE) PCV is the right side hole
No need to fill the holes they are both blocked by your intercooler anyways !!!
Left side hole is firewall side, this is fresh air in ! just put a fitting into you valve cover and run a 3/8 hose to your TB make sure it is before your throttle Plate inside the TB
Right side hole is your PCV no need to fill it ither its blocked by your intercooler !! but you must tap into the side of it like my pic and now you will have PCV line to a PCV value then a catch can then a hose to a positive vacume sorce this means there is vacume all the time even when car is just idleing so find a hole in your TB AFTER the throttle plate inside your TB
Left side hole is firewall side, this is fresh air in ! just put a fitting into you valve cover and run a 3/8 hose to your TB make sure it is before your throttle Plate inside the TB
Let me guess !! you think the fitting will hit the rockers !!! if it is done in the right spot on valve cover with a proper PCV rubber like on a 2.8 valve cover it will be fine i used RTV to seal mine ! work great or use a valve cover with a oil fill hole and run your line off the oil fill cap or drill into the LIM at the resh air side and run a line just like the PCV side but they must be seperate lines
Justin I guess you use a breather !!!!! not exactly correct if you ask anyone who builds FI motors its ideal to have a closed PCV system this will achive no un metered air into motor
[This message has been edited by RULOOKIN (edited 11-23-2012).]
I think you are wrong !!! fire wall side of a 3800 when in a fiero is fresh air side !! take a look at any 3800 in a GTP what side is the oil fill on ?????? where do some guys run breathers ????? ON that side !!!!!! FRESH AIR IN
in a Fiero that is fire wall side !!!! PCV is on the trunk side
This worked for my build perfectly but i am supercharged !
BV just run a breather on the valve cover much easier ,but not the way i would do it, they tend to blow oil out of them and i dont like oil on hot maniflods
[This message has been edited by RULOOKIN (edited 11-23-2012).]
can you explain why a check valve !! on this fresh air in side ??? PCV side YES it needs a check valve or PCV value and a catch can but fresh air in side even when under boost is only going to push or pull what the head needs so why the check valve, on that side its only pulling air in and the bit that is pushe out gets pulled into the TB by vacume ??
can you explain why a check valve !! on this fresh air in side ??? PCV side YES it needs a check valve or PCV value and a catch can but fresh air in side even when under boost is only going to push or pull what the head needs so why the check valve, on that side its only pulling air in and the bit that is pushe out gets pulled into the TB by vacume ??
BV just run a valve breather on the fire wall side valve cover , but for the PCV side do it like I out lined, I keep forgetting you are running a turbo , SC set up my PCV system works,
I think you are wrong !!! fire wall side of a 3800 when in a fiero is fresh air side !! take a look at any 3800 in a GTP what side is the oil fill on ?????? where do some guys run breathers ????? ON that side !!!!!! FRESH AIR IN
in a Fiero that is fire wall side !!!! PCV is on the trunk side
This worked for my build perfectly but i am supercharged !
BV just run a breather on the valve cover much easier ,but not the way i would do it, they tend to blow oil out of them and i dont like oil on hot maniflods
Guys please don't fight. Nothing wrong with different opinions. It is all WELCOMED assistance. And I really do appreciate the advice.
Since you are basically redoing a lot of the swap. I would suggest moving the turbo oil drain in the pan upwards a few inches. I didn't use the oil level sender hole because that is too close to the oil level. I ran our drain near the top of the pan.
Dave
Good idea. I'll be sure to raise the bung on the aluminum pan, if I can find one at Pick & Pull. Shouldn't be much of a problem. I am also going to grab a spare L67. Just for spares/core. The main goal, when I swap in the new engine, is to put the turbo in the back left and run a hard line to the trunk side of the oil pan. Nothing wrong with a scavenging pump, but its one more failure point I can do without. I also need to replace all the hose using hose clamps (on oil lines) with the correct AN lines. I just don't feel comfortable trusting hose clamps for vital engine fluids.
Thanks for the tip.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-23-2012).]
Good idea. I'll be sure to raise the bung on the aluminum pan, if I can find one at Pick & Pull. Shouldn't be much of a problem. I am also going to grab a spare L67. Just for spares/core. The main goal, when I swap in the new engine, is to put the turbo in the back left and run a hard line to the trunk side of the oil pan. Nothing wrong with a scavenging pump, but its one more failure point I can do without. I also need to replace all the hose using hose clamps (on oil lines) with the correct AN lines. I just don't feel comfortable trusting hose clamps for vital engine fluids.
Thanks for the tip.
Bad idea.
I have been using the oil sensor hole for years and years, zzp has done hundreds if not thousands of kits using that hole.
I have been using the oil sensor hole for years and years, zzp has done hundreds if not thousands of kits using that hole.
Fair enough, but as it sets right now, I cant get a regular return line to the oil pan. Adding a new inlet may free up some space or provide a different routing option.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-23-2012).]
The whole issue with the PCV is that on a Turbo application the normal location for "fresh metered air" (between the MAF and Throttle body) will see positive pressure under boost. This will pressurize the crankcase and blow out the seals (before it blows off the pan). You can't use a check valve on this line because the direction of flow is the same under boost (forces air in) or vacuum (intake manifold vacuum will pull air in this line, through the crankcase and into the intake post throttle body). So the only source of unpressurized fresh air is through some type of valve cover breather.
The downside to the valve cover breather is that all the air that comes in through this filter will be unmetered air (dumps back into the intake post MAF/throttle body, but was never metered by the MAF... in essence it will be a vacuum leak from a tuning perspective) and can cause some idle and transient tuning issues. You might be better off with a fixed orifice bleed port (like the later model LS engine use) vs. a normal PCV valve in that the fixed orifice would be a constant air bleed and possibly easier to tune for.
The dirty air line (from the crankcase to the intake manifold (post throttle body) can have a check valve for boost. Under vacuum, the air flows from the crankcase to intake manifold, but under boost the flow would be from intake to crankcase. A check valve will stop the boost from entering the crankcase, but still allow the PCV air flow under non-boost conditions.
Fair enough, but as it sets right now, I cant get a regular return line to the oil pan. Adding a new inlet may free up some space or provide a different routing option.
not really. The line needs to run between the starter and the frame rail... you either need to notch or drill a hole through the frame rail to use it effetively... every 3800 fiero swap I have done has plenty of room between the starter and the framerail so idk why you cant run it through there.
quote
and can cause some idle and transient tuning issues. You might be better off with a fixed orifice bleed port (like the later model LS engine use) vs. a normal PCV valve in that the fixed orifice would be a constant air bleed and possibly easier to tune for.
The reality of this is small enough you cant even detect it using a wideband..
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-23-2012).]
The whole issue with the PCV is that on a Turbo application the normal location for "fresh metered air" (between the MAF and Throttle body) will see positive pressure under boost. This will pressurize the crankcase and blow out the seals (before it blows off the pan). You can't use a check valve on this line because the direction of flow is the same under boost (forces air in) or vacuum (intake manifold vacuum will pull air in this line, through the crankcase and into the intake post throttle body). So the only source of unpressurized fresh air is through some type of valve cover breather.
The downside to the valve cover breather is that all the air that comes in through this filter will be unmetered air (dumps back into the intake post MAF/throttle body, but was never metered by the MAF... in essence it will be a vacuum leak from a tuning perspective) and can cause some idle and transient tuning issues. You might be better off with a fixed orifice bleed port (like the later model LS engine use) vs. a normal PCV valve in that the fixed orifice would be a constant air bleed and possibly easier to tune for.
The dirty air line (from the crankcase to the intake manifold (post throttle body) can have a check valve for boost. Under vacuum, the air flows from the crankcase to intake manifold, but under boost the flow would be from intake to crankcase. A check valve will stop the boost from entering the crankcase, but still allow the PCV air flow under non-boost conditions.
So couldn't I use the LIM PCV ports, add barb fitting to both sides, T them together and run to a catch can, and finally into a PCV valve. Then put the PCV into the intake PRE turbo? Wouldn't that practically duplicate the SC configuration? Dont forget, I have a breather filter in the trunk side VC as well.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-23-2012).]
not really. The line needs to run between the starter and the frame rail... you either need to notch or drill a hole through the frame rail to use it effetively... every 3800 fiero swap I have done has plenty of room between the starter and the framerail so idk why you cant run it through there.
Because Dean stuffed EVERYTHING behind the engine to hide it. There just isn't room to route a gravity drain because you would have to snake it around everything. There is no clean "line of sight" path to the oil pan.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-23-2012).]
So couldn't I use the LIM PCV ports, add barb fitting to both sides, T them together and run to a catch can, and finally into a PCV valve. Then put the PCV into the intake PRE turbo? Wouldn't that practically duplicate the SC configuration? Dont forget, I have a breather filter in the trunk side VC as well.
Ideally, you want the clean air to go into the engine on one side, pass through the crankcase picking up vapors and then exit out the other side. Some engines have the fresh air go in both valve covers and exit the crankcase through the valley pan.
PCV works on a pressure differential between the fresh air inlet and manifold vacuum. So routing the system before the turbo, wouldn't have any significant vacuum present, plus you would send the crankcase vapors through the turbo, MAF and intercooler... none of which is good.
Your best bet with a turbo is to leave the valve cover filter, connect a hose to the lower intake PCV ports below the intercooler (after adding the needed barb), route the hose to a catch can, then route the hose from the catch can to the firewall side of the intake (need to drill/tap a vacuum port in it). There should be room to mount the catch can down by the front transmission mount to keep it out of sight.
I wouldn't suck oil vapor/crank case gasses though the turbo and intercooler.
The PCV line will be tapped into a vacume fitting after the throttle body !! So no chance of anything getting near the turbo, with the catch can in line only fumes will be blown into the custom intake no oil !!
BV look on a mustang site for a 2012 moroso oil catch can these are exactly what Mustang uses on their new Shelby gt 500 out of the factory they have a oil catch can !!
Anyways make sure you get one that is dubble baffled this will trap the oil rather than getting sucked past the can , good luck with things
[This message has been edited by RULOOKIN (edited 11-23-2012).]
Because Dean stuffed EVERYTHING behind the engine to hide it. There just isn't room to route a gravity drain because you would have to snake it around everything. There is no clean "line of sight" path to the oil pan.
It has nothing to do with what is stuffed anywhere... the simple fact is you need to run it over the framerail... if you cant find a 1 inch round hole through a "mess of random stuff' then you must date very small women.
It has nothing to do with what is stuffed anywhere... the simple fact is you need to run it over the framerail... if you cant find a 1 inch round hole through a "mess of random stuff' then you must date very small women.
And that's a bad thing?????? LOL You crack me up some times. Anyway, 3 different people looked at the turbo placement and the mess behind the engine and all agreed, a proper gravity drain wasn't going to happen. No offense, but I trust those with first hand knowledge of my car on this one. I'll get you some better pics so it makes sense.
That is absolutely disgusting. Obviously just a used engine. I bet you'll find the exact same crap in the bottom end, too.
Here's my engine after 20,000 miles, and 3000 mile oil changes. This is what it should look like.
But that's not a 6 thousand dollar Whodeanie Customs "race motor".... lol By the time the State Attorney is done with Dean (he is a criminal) we will have long forgotten about Whodeanies Customs.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-23-2012).]
I don't know how moving the turbo would be easier than some random junk.
Because moving the turbo puts it where I wanted it in the first place. I'll be able to run a 3" exhaust without having to run it under the cradle (like it is now) and I get to throw that low hanging, crush bent crap exhaust in the garbage.
More bad news on my car today... I am going to need a completely new engine. I am so sick of this car, whats been done to me, and that my car has been butchered so badly by Whodeanies Customs... I just need to step back and take a break from cars in general. I'll be back....... I just cant do this right now.
lol By the time the State Attorney is done with Dean (he is a criminal) we will have long forgotten about Whodeanies Customs.
