OK, like I said, don't trust that I am conveying what Charlie said correctly. Its all gibberish to me anyway. The big question is why is it dumping fuel like there is no tomorrow above 3200rpm? The higher you rev the worse it gets. It idles perfectly @ a 14.7 and as you ramp up the throttle it just gets richer and richer. But when Charlie tries to lean it out, it has practically no effect on the AFR.
Nobody can help you if you don't have a frigg'n clue on what is going on.
Nobody can help you if you don't have a frigg'n clue on what is going on.
My guess- It's the janky intake.
Then why even bother to post? I mean seriously? When someone asks for help, people see it as an opportunity to be a jerk? Because hey, if you can discredit everyone else, it will make you and your work look that much better? FFS man. Not what I expected from you.
I am NOT a tuner... No question about that. And the "janky intake" has **** all to do with it.
Dude, I just want my car to work. You have no idea what that would mean to me. I have literally been through hell over that damn thing.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 02-01-2013).]
Stop taking it to people have no clue how to work on a turbo 3800.
Why? The ones that seem to know what they are doing, are not being what I would call helpful!
When I go into repair a computer or network, I dont tell the customer ANYTHING negative or point fingers. I inform them of the problem and fix it. Simple as that. No chest thumping, no my way is better than this way. I just get the job done and take care of the customer. Because at the end of the day, thats all that matters.
Charlie does know what he is doing. But ANYONE can make a mistake or overlook something. No matter how skilled you are. Even more so when you have a bunch of jobs going on at once.
And yes, I hate the intake too, but its what I have to work with right now. Actually I hate the entire car. It has become the bane of my existence.
Also, I just got an email from ZZP and they said it sounds like a tuning issue as well. But that is as far as they went.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 02-01-2013).]
Stop taking it to people who have no clue how to work on a turbo 3800.
It wasn't THAT long ago that you guys were n00bs on the matter as well. I've found tons of threads where DH was asking for advice from other people on things, both on this forum and several others. Everyone has to start somewhere, and if BV's guy is legit then he'll get there. If not, then I'm sure the car will find it's way to someone who can get it finished.
A fresh 100% stock tune was loaded on the ECU (provided by the local GM dealer) and it obviously ran richer at idle, but as soon as it hit 3200 rpm, 8.8-9.1 AFR.
A fresh 100% stock tune was loaded on the ECU (provided by the local GM dealer) and it obviously ran richer at idle, but as soon as it hit 3200 rpm, 8.8-9.1 AFR.
So if it's not the tune, then it's mechanical or electrical in nature? Could what I told you have anything to do with it? Was this the same ecu or a fresh one?
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 02-01-2013).]
Trying to diagnose a car over the internet is harder than in person. For not having a clue what your car is really doing I throw out my guess as: check the fuel pressure, check codes, look at the fuel trims at idle and see what is really going on, but that may not be relevant if the car isn't idle tuned yet. What made it change? if you suspect a fouled pcm, try a spare....is it running on all cylinders? are the injectors dumping fuel and going static? does the cigarette lighter work (lol). If it were a stock BMW, i could probably have it diagnosed within 10 minutes, but i am sincerely trying to help you look in the right direction.
Trying to diagnose a car over the internet is harder than in person. For not having a clue what your car is really doing I throw out my guess as: check the fuel pressure, check codes, look at the fuel trims at idle and see what is really going on, but that may not be relevant if the car isn't idle tuned yet. What made it change? if you suspect a fouled pcm, try a spare....is it running on all cylinders? are the injectors dumping fuel and going static? does the cigarette lighter work (lol). If it were a stock BMW, i could probably have it diagnosed within 10 minutes, but i am sincerely trying to help you look in the right direction.
Dave
No misfire detected until it goes pig rich. It idles at 14.7 AFR and runs very well until you try to rev it. Its almost like the injectors are being commanded to go 100% on the IDC. Static fuel pressure is 43.5. He even removed the vac line from the FPR to prevent it from bumping the FP and still no change.
Does the 3800 ECM have the "cat over temp protection"? If so you might look at the settings. This sequence will dump fuel to lower the temp of the cat after a specified time at WOT.
Other that that I would test it with/without the MAF connected and with/without the O2 sensor connected to see of those two components are suspect. Then it would be a matter of running a test while recording all sensor values and then reviewing the data to see if any sensor or flag setting is changing at the point the fuel dumps.
Does the 3800 ECM have the "cat over temp protection"? If so you might look at the settings. This sequence will dump fuel to lower the temp of the cat after a specified time at WOT.
Other that that I would test it with/without the MAF connected and with/without the O2 sensor connected to see of those two components are suspect. Then it would be a matter of running a test while recording all sensor values and then reviewing the data to see if any sensor or flag setting is changing at the point the fuel dumps.
He tried it w/ & w/o the MAF. With it on the Grams per sec and Hertz were within 3%. All the sensors appear to be within normal but I pass on your suggestions! The replacement ECU should arrive tomorrow.
Also, IDC never exceeds 57%.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 02-01-2013).]
If you load a stock tune on... it wont work because you have twice the size injectors... you need to pull the injectors out of the base injector table and put the right maf table in.
quote
But when Charlie tries to lean it out, it has practically no effect on the AFR.
The second you have problems you should have switched to tuning in open loop (dyno and wideband make this pretty much the first step but I am lazy). Either way, its impossible for there not to "be changes"... the injector table is all you should be tuning and it responds in a very flat and brutal fashion.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-01-2013).]
If you load a stock tune on... it wont work because you have twice the size injectors... you need to pull the injectors out of the base injector table and put the right maf table in.
Stock L67 MAF (just replaced it) and he rescaled the injectors for the stock tune. No matter what he has tried in the tune, it doesnt seem to respond by leaning it out. He said he has never seen anything like it.
Tuning a turbo car with stock parts on it is easier than a SC car by a longshot... you cant really screw anything up in the injector table... and thats all you need to change to get it to the point of doing runs around town under boost... tweak PE accordingly if its rich or lean under boost and call it a day... I usually set the PE entry point a bit lower on a turbo car (28% tps) to make it throw fuel a bit sooner.
no translator on the maf right>?
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-01-2013).]
Tuning a turbo car with stock parts on it is easier than a SC car by a longshot... you cant really screw anything up in the injector table... and thats all you need to change to get it to the point of doing runs around town under boost... tweak PE accordingly if its rich or lean under boost and call it a day... I usually set the PE entry point a bit lower on a turbo car (28% tps) to make it throw fuel a bit sooner.
no translator on the maf right>?
No translator.. the AFR problem occurs anytime is has any real boost pressure ("in boost" according to charlie).
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 02-01-2013).]
No translator.. the AFR problem occurs anytime is has any real boost pressure ("in boost" according to charlie).
This happened after the first pull where it made 390whp? What changed after that?
Did the failed flash occur before or after this started happening? Does a failed flash brick the computer, or screw up anything else?
It might be in your best interest to pay to have darkhorizon,zzp or someone else who knows a lot about 3800 turbos rdp into Charlie's computer to look at the tune. I'm sure they could tell you whats wrong pretty quick. If they say the tune is fine then start looking at parts. I don't doubt that Charlie can tune, but sometimes it takes someone who has looked at a ton of similar ones to see the problem.
Yeah most people feel bad when they hear someone had to go to NJ
Don't worry Scott, Dave isn't going to steal your title. My car is the last customer Fiero he's doing for a while from what he's said. I'm a little surprised you've shown this much interest in BV's project as his power goals are about the same as mine and you deemed mine to be too low to do the turbo 3800 world proud.
Hey what are you replacing your ST2 with anyway, do you have something picked out yet?
Originally posted by mptighe: Don't worry Scott, Dave isn't going to steal your title. My car is the last customer Fiero he's doing for a while from what he's said. I'm a little surprised you've shown this much interest in BV's project as his power goals are about the same as mine and you deemed mine to be too low to do the turbo 3800 world proud.
Hey as always been fairly cool and helpful via PM with me. Hence my comment a few posts above.
We got a bulk supply of ST5's on black friday. Also stage 5 heads are being machined right now.
Nice (if serious, could be sarcasm). He going with the bigger Holset now too? Hopefully he's able to get the power to the ground so he can reach his goal. I found a set of Intense stage 3 heads I was considering, but I'm going to hold off until I have at least 6 months of drive time before I think about doing any more on the engine. I have a bunch of other things to focus on.
Stock L67 MAF (just replaced it) and he rescaled the injectors for the stock tune. No matter what he has tried in the tune, it doesnt seem to respond by leaning it out. He said he has never seen anything like it.
I have see it before...I changed the tune about 7 times with NO effect. I finally received a DTC for case learn and ....Once I did a case learn and it corrected the problem.
Put in Stock injectors if your running a 100% stock tune as you NEED 100% matching hardware.
If the tuner is using a 98 Grand Prix GTP bin file that WILL run the engine with 0 issues.
However....Be 100% sure you have a 98 MAF installed as the tuning table is vastly different than the 99+ MAF and its corresponding table.
If you have the 99 MAF installed and a stock 98 GTP bin file then there will be an issue.
How much boost are you running (15psi)? The 2 bar MAP can read only up to 14psi. You could be running out of MAF and that's why you need a mini AFR to scale back the MAF.
Funny you mention the injectors. I am going to the j-yard to pull some parts tomorrow and injectors are on my list. I figure its worth a try to run injectors, ecu and MAF off the same car.
Tell me about it! I've been trying to get out of NJ for a few years now. The only way I could leave is to walk away from my house and either pack up my shop or sell it. I haven't used any form of credit in the past 10 years other than buying my truck, so I really don't care to have perfect credit.
Anyway, rather than throw parts at it which waste time and money, check the basics. When I tune the cars, I have the wideband hooked into the EGR on the 0-5v scale and trim it to match the particular wideband. I also have a boost reading off the MAP to be able to see it on the datalog.
Yes, I am taking a year or two (or more) off of building Fieros. Ryan and I are wrapping up the TDI swap. My Saab swap is coming along nicely and Ryan is looking to do a LNF turbo setup on his car. Our spare time has become minimal as my shop's workload has doubled since I started doing Fieros. Ryan races his Porsche on weekends and works in the pit crew for one of the big race teams. I have been getting involved with another side project that is taking up a lot of my time, so Scott you can take over doing the swaps for me....just learn to clean up the engine bay a bit Loyde's swaps were my inspiration, I'm just not into Asian women (just don't offer me an eastern European woman or I may run off with all your $...lol)
I have see it before...I changed the tune about 7 times with NO effect. I finally received a DTC for case learn and ....Once I did a case learn and it corrected the problem.
Put in Stock injectors if your running a 100% stock tune as you NEED 100% matching hardware.
If the tuner is using a 98 Grand Prix GTP bin file that WILL run the engine with 0 issues.
However....Be 100% sure you have a 98 MAF installed as the tuning table is vastly different than the 99+ MAF and its corresponding table.
If you have the 99 MAF installed and a stock 98 GTP bin file then there will be an issue.
How much boost are you running (15psi)? The 2 bar MAP can read only up to 14psi. You could be running out of MAF and that's why you need a mini AFR to scale back the MAF.
ugg, please stop.
The map sensor does ZERO for fueling. It offers in some cases some timing references, but not much.
The 99/98 maf differences are true, but its not the end of the world different... about 5-7%.
A DTC for a case learn puts the misfire/knock detection system out of order, but it does not touch fueling.
There is no need to start swapping PCM's as you are just running up the bill on that stupid HPTuners... Figure out the one you have and be done with it.
On the plus side, I've tasted Florida's pizza and you are in for a treat! NJ has some of the best pizza in the country....even our crappy pizza is good pizza. Pork roll, egg and cheese for breakfast and while your're here get some craft beer and some bloody burgers covered in steak sauce for lunch over at Houlihan's.
New Jersey offers a lot but it just costs a fortune to live here. Where I live its 1 hour drive to the Jersey shore, Philadelphia, New York City and the Pocono mountains. Gormet quality food and restaurants are everywhere. The giant auto shows at Carlisle are three hours away. Stores are all over the place. The downside is highway traffic during rush hours and on summer weekends, property taxes are exhorbitant, insurance rates are high, and gun laws a bit restrictive (but not like NY) . As for your Fiero there are guys here than can help get it running right. New Jersey might not be my no 1 choice for a place to live but if one can afford it does offer some quality of life,.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Any good places to ride? We have dirt bikes, 4wheelers (kids), SxS etc.. And the biggie, what about the gun laws? Now I need to do some research about that. I have a CWP.
Any good places to ride? We have dirt bikes, 4wheelers (kids), SxS etc.. And the biggie, what about the gun laws? Now I need to do some research about that. I have a CWP.
Since you will be at Fort Dix, the entire area there is perfect for riding. I used to just ride down route 70 and turn off on the dirt roads and haul ass. Gun laws are strict here....just do as everyone else does and carry a tire iron or a small bat inside your car. Your best bet is if you are standing outside your car and someone in a car is going to start a fight with you, as soon as they open their door and set one foot out, kick the door closed and break their leg....master that technique and you'll fit in Jersey just fine.
The big question is why is it dumping fuel like there is no tomorrow above 3200rpm? The higher you rev the worse it gets. It idles perfectly @ a 14.7 and as you ramp up the throttle it just gets richer and richer. But when Charlie tries to lean it out, it has practically no effect on the AFR.
The replacement ECU should arrive tomorrow. 
Orders to the Azores... 
