Vehicle weight, those ratings are for a ~3600lb car. You may get more rpm if your front tires can hold the car back. I have relatively small front tires, it will push the car with the fronts locked up. Grand prixs can get almost 3000 rpm out of a stock converter, just as a reference to your 2000. With a 4psi launch I had 1.7 60', but my controller was messed up, and took over two seconds to reach full boost, you might be surprised at how well it 60'. I wouldn't go higher than 3000. My slip at the top end is terrible, loosing lots of power, and probably killing my trans. I think my 10.26 run was ~18% converter slip through the traps with a 3250 zzp converter.
Vehicle weight, those ratings are for a ~3600lb car. You may get more rpm if your front tires can hold the car back. I have relatively small front tires, it will push the car with the fronts locked up. Grand prixs can get almost 3000 rpm out of a stock converter, just as a reference to your 2000. With a 4psi launch I had 1.7 60', but my controller was messed up, and took over two seconds to reach full boost, you might be surprised at how well it 60'. I wouldn't go higher than 3000. My slip at the top end is terrible, loosing lots of power, and probably killing my trans. I think my 10.26 run was ~18% converter slip through the traps with a 3250 zzp converter.
When I was doing the brief tuning before I discovered the HG leak the 60' suxed azz. What does the 2.8 60'? That is exactly where I would have been. So should I keep the 3K or the stock one? I also have ported heads and a big cam which sux on the low end torque curve. You also have 3.29 gears right, as I am NOT sure if that helps or hurts the Boost rpm threshold
According to ZZP:
quote
"Stall speeds are approximations and will vary depending on torque output of your motor as well as gear ratios, vehicle weight, and other factors."
[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 10-19-2012).]
The street-ability was like a 2.8 Auto with the stock converter.
Once I bumped up the timing it was little more peppier but NOTHING close to the M90 power.
The car started to feel alive @ 3lbs boost. Actually, it was really disappointing from driving the SC. No whine and no umph.
I plan on getting some REAL heads or going back to stock as the gasket matched heads also killed the low end TQ.
The car was too street-able if you ask me. It behaved much too well when I punched it.
3k isn't bad at all TBH. its when you start getting up there that it becomes a real issue. My buddy Scott had a crazy one in his 4th gen F-body. IIRC like 5+k. You could hardly feel it shift when you were on it. It felt like a CVT trans. They aren't suppose to "stall" unless you are over X amount of throttle, but they can, and do, "flash stall" at odd times.
I'd like to see a Dyno sheet. I am curious what is going on with your tune. IDK if we have the ability to lean spool in our ECU or not (think: Evo) or if there are other problems working against you. My car is very responsive according to Charlie. He has been able to take it out and play with the tune a bit. With an eye on the WBO2, he says the car comes on pretty hard from as much as he deemed safe to try. Arent our cars very similar in spec?
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 10-19-2012).]
I run 2.93s, but had 3.29 at the beginning of the year. Don't think that the gear ratio change made any difference in stall rpm, I was hoping it would. As far as streetability, my M90 setup was way less friendly than the turbo setup. Stall has a minor effect on driveability. My 3250 is barely noticeable. It will creep when I let of the brake.
Really depends on what you want to do. If your out for mph, stay stock. If you want to ET, the 3000 will help. With the st3 cam your going to need some rpm on the line to get you into the powerband, however there will be a HP penalty at the top end. With some rpm through the traps, converter efficiency will get better. I shift around 6200, and cross traps at 6150 or so, the efficiency gets better around 6500. I'm sure dark has stated he has a 3000. Might have to change the fluid more often, but if you keep from burning it, should be ok.
Once you have some rpm on the line, there are a few things in that tune file I sent that will help with the spool. If you watch my video, you can hear how quickly it comes up. The two step helps a bit, but even with it off, the car will make the same boost at the same rpm.
3k isn't bad at all TBH. its when you start getting up there that it becomes a real issue. My buddy Scott had a crazy one in his 4th gen F-body. IIRC like 5+k. You could hardly feel it shift when you were on it. It felt like a CVT trans. They aren't suppose to "stall" unless you are over X amount of throttle, but they can, and do, "flash stall" at odd times.
I'd like to see a Dyno sheet. I am curious what is going on with your tune. IDK if we have the ability to lean spool in our ECU or not (think: Evo) or if there are other problems working against you. My car is very responsive according to Charlie. He has been able to take it out and play with the tune a bit. With an eye on the WBO2, he says the car comes on pretty hard from as much as he deemed safe to try. Arent our cars very similar in spec?
Is your Turbo a T4 or T3? Also what is your .AR? You also have a manual trans which is a totally different animal than a Auto. Your heads were ported by someone who did 3800 heads before and my heads were gasket matched on exhaust and hogged out on the intake. I also have the MLS gaskets which lowered my compression and ultimately my low end TQ.
Is your Turbo a T4 or T3? Also what is your .AR? You also have a manual trans which is a totally different animal than a Auto. Your heads were ported by someone who did 3800 heads before and my heads were gasket matched on exhaust and hogged out on the intake. I also have the MLS gaskets which lowered my compression and ultimately my low end TQ.
My turbo is a Precision Turbo T67 w/ the ball bearing CHRA upgrade. IIRC is a .68AR on the hot side. Its also fully ported and coated.
You'll get there my friend. I'd look into the 2step like posted above. I had it on my Evo and it was SICK! Also, man you went BIG on your hot side... plan to roll race much?
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 10-20-2012).]
again, the gains of spool from the converter are the smallest at the line on these cars... Brakes alone will give you massive amounts more boost.. antilag will double that.
I have many thousands of miles on a stock trans turbo car... i cant wait for my other fiero to be done so I can have the stock converter back. The 3k on my car is just there because it has always been there... and I have never actually planned to run such a small turbo on my car, I just keep this on here for some stupid reason I cant ever seem to remember... watch my old videos to see where a "big converter" and no other modifications got me.... nowhere.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Also, man you went BIG on your hot side... plan to roll race much?
After experienced first hand and doing more reasearch I think you are right. My turbo hot side is Too big for what I do. 1/4 mile Drag strip, 1/8 mile Texas Motor speedway, and have a little fun from the stoplight.
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:
I don't consider that big on the hot side. That thing will be much more efficient than my MPT70.
It is not too big for highway driving and roll racing. The few times I got to take it on the highway it was 10X better than the M90 setup and exactly what I wanted and expected.
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
again, the gains of spool from the converter are the smallest at the line on these cars... Brakes alone will give you massive amounts more boost.. antilag will double that.
... where a "big converter" and no other modifications got me.... nowhere.
So if you go back to a stock converter what "GAINS" will you see? I definetly have MANY modifications so this may or may NOT apply. What Turbo and Cam were you running with the BIG converter and what stall was it(3K, 3.2k)?
1) I don't want to run anti-lag if at all possible because I have a cat, need a fail safe switch,not thrilled about the science behind why it works and what parts it tends to wear out. 2) I have already upgraded my brakes to 11.25". I can upgrade the brake booster but I don't think that does anything but make the pedal "feel" firmer.
I think I NEED to make around ~3psi on the line to run a 1.70 60'. However, I also don't want the boost to come on all of a sudden and then blow the rear tires off.
[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 10-24-2012).]
Disclaimer: I have no idea how the stock ecu works, i use aftermarket. Can you 'spoof' the P/N safety switch to the pcm? If you can adjust fuel/timing tables for the neutral rev limiter, you can essentially bring the rpm up in drive while on the brake, set the p/n rev limit to before the car will push, and use a momentary switch to spoof the pcm. Put the pedal to the floor on the p/n limiter while its actually in gear and it should build some boost at the line....
Disclaimer: I have no idea how the stock ecu works, i use aftermarket. Can you 'spoof' the P/N safety switch to the pcm? If you can adjust fuel/timing tables for the neutral rev limiter, you can essentially bring the rpm up in drive while on the brake, set the p/n rev limit to before the car will push, and use a momentary switch to spoof the pcm. Put the pedal to the floor on the p/n limiter while its actually in gear and it should build some boost at the line....
It works off fuel cut... overall its bad news for turbo spooling. What extra help the converter will get to get more RPM will not help nearly as much as anything else.
quote
1) I don't want to run anti-lag if at all possible because I have a cat, need a fail safe switch,not thrilled about the science behind why it works and what parts it tends to wear out.
what does any of that have to do with anything? A cat is plenty safe to use antilag with... the cat works off of temperature first off, and its well after the turbo so it doesnt really see that much heat from exhaust anyway. The stock tune will provide antilag like conditions to test cat functionality, and warm it up in cold weather.
I also dont understand what "need a failsafe switch" even means, or what "not thrilled about the science" means either... I use this on all of my turbo cars and have been for years without a single problem.. it doesnt wear anything out any more than a bigger converter would... its no different.
quote
2) I have already upgraded my brakes to 11.25". I can upgrade the brake booster but I don't think that does anything but make the pedal "feel" firmer.
Plenty of options here... pads make a big difference.. the big bad race pads actually have a significantly lower cold friction point than $4 autozone pads... put some cheapo metalics out back first off. After that you can put a brake bias valve on and increase the majority of the brake bias to the rear. A booster will not help a ton but it will increase your maximum clamping pressure which will help a bit.
quote
I think I NEED to make around ~3psi on the line to run a 1.70 60'. However, I also don't want the boost to come on all of a sudden and then blow the rear tires off.
[/quote]
You will probably want to make about 5psi at the line to get that time, if the tires hold it after it hits.... If you want to get a 1.7 with less than 15psi of boost you probably want 7 at the line.
Originally posted by darkhorizon: what does any of that have to do with anything? A cat is plenty safe to use antilag with... the cat works off of temperature first off, and its well after the turbo so it doesnt really see that much heat from exhaust anyway. The stock tune will provide antilag like conditions to test cat functionality, and warm it up in cold weather.
Ok, makes sence I thought the added heat during ALS would kill the cat...lol You don't have a cat do you?
quote
I also dont understand what "need a failsafe switch" even means, or what "not thrilled about the science" means either... I use this on all of my turbo cars and have been for years without a single problem.. it doesnt wear anything out any more than a bigger converter would... its no different.
"fail safe switch" or the ability to "arm" the system in addition to the on/off swich. A "open" temp sensor circuit, stuck switch, or failed sensor itself would turn it on and I would hate for anti-lag to come on when I don't want it to. I would like some sort of failsafe, like if the coolant temp is too high, or the brakes must be applied, before letting the ALS engage.
The science of it and the downside from what I read is: Huge stress on the exhaust manifold due to combustion taking place in the manifold and pipes in which people complain about trashing their exhaust valves or manifold or turbo. Also the loud as bang bang bang..
quote
Plenty of options here... pads make a big difference.. the big bad race pads actually have a significantly lower cold friction point than $4 autozone pads... put some cheapo metalics out back first off. After that you can put a brake bias valve on and increase the majority of the brake bias to the rear. A booster will not help a ton but it will increase your maximum clamping pressure which will help a bit.
Makes a LOT of sense do you have a recommendation? Didn't Justin use some yellow race pad or something. I want better brakes anyway I can get them.
quote
You will probably want to make about 5psi at the line to get that time, if the tires hold it after it hits.... If you want to get a 1.7 with less than 15psi of boost you probably want 7 at the line.
I have never felt my turbo setup "HIT". With the .81AR it's just smooth acceleration until the designated psi. Off the line is was a turtle on Ambien but on the highway it was awesome.
Just for reference, I have a 0.63 T3, 6262, 9.4:1 compression and a st1 cam with a lower power band than yours. At 2800 rpm on the two step, with 5 or 6 degrees ignition advance and 12.5:1 AFR commanded, I make 7-8psi.
Also for reference, with a vacuum launch from idle, on 10psi, I ran a 2.1 60' with a 4 psi launch, on 10 psi I ran a 1.7 60' With a 7 psi launch, on 18 psi I ran a 1.49 60' with boost taking 2 seconds to reach target(boost controller programming error)
I would run the 3000 stall. You need air flow to spool, only way to get airflow is rpm. Timing and AFR help increase boost once you can make it, but you need a certain mass to start. Precision recommends 2800 rpm for a 6262 on a turbo Buick. It's going to be hard on your tranny if you start launching hard. Might be ok with 1.7 60', beyond that **** starts breaking.
The PCM fuel cut limiter is bad news. It is way too slow, and violent. That's how I broke my first sprag. Don't do that.
Your 6266 should spool quicker than Darks old school 67, if you can get a few psi on the line, I would bet your car will leave as hard or harder than his, and 1.7 60' will only be a problem due to traction.
I have yet to try for any 60fts on my car... I make up for my shortcomings at the start enough it seems.. 60ft is the easy part.
quote
The science of it and the downside from what I read is: Huge stress on the exhaust manifold due to combustion taking place in the manifold and pipes in which people complain about trashing their exhaust valves or manifold or turbo. Also the loud as bang bang bang..
I know it will be hard for you to notice any of this in any of my videos... but the internet is never wrong so feel free to listen to the "internet" instead of a guy that has done it.
The failsafe is just unplugging the switch. Cutting wires off with a knife... Installing a failsafe switch.... its more than possible to do.
quote
So if I can hold the line @ 2500 with better pads and upgraded stall and also lower the spool by 400rpm I THINK I can make ~7psi off the line.
Wont happen. This is with a very quick spooling tune,3000 stall (billet flexplate), silly race gas, more boost than you are going to run, and everything my autozone brakes could handle before it pushed... I think I made 2psi.... 2.0 60'. First try with antilag on much less boost netted me the same time with a 1.7 60 with less than a second spent building boost at the line.
I know it will be hard for you to notice any of this in any of my videos... but the internet is never wrong so feel free to listen to the "internet" instead of a guy that has done it.
C'mon Man! ......
quote
The failsafe is just unplugging the switch. Cutting wires off with a knife... Installing a failsafe switch.... its more than possible to do.
I plan to rig up something,
quote
Wont happen. This is with a very quick spooling tune,3000 stall (billet flexplate), silly race gas, more boost than you are going to run, and everything my autozone brakes could handle before it pushed... I think I made 2psi.... 2.0 60'. First try with antilag on much less boost netted me the same time with a 1.7 60 with less than a second spent building boost at the line.
You forgot to mention what turbo you were running. As you mentioned before your T3 turbo didn't have a lag issue. I probably wouldn't be complaining about lag with a CEA PT6262 .68AR Ball Bearing Turbo.
You haven't tried to 60' yet???? Really. You tried to run 9s without doing everything you can to 60'? I'm not buying. If 60' is so easy why isn't everyone running 1.4 or 1.5 60'? I see lots of 1.7s on the 1/4 mile list. I would say those are easy, I did that on street tires. I put a lot of time and work into getting my car to leave the way it does. It took a lot to get it down to a best of 1.54 with the M90, and now 1.49 with the turbo. With the boost controller setup properly, I'm confident it will be lower than that next time out. Hopefully you can still make another trip to the track this year and "try" for a good 60' and run mid 9s, the MPH is there.
ZZP Converters are crap. You should have had a custom converter built. Way overpriced for what it is. Not knocking it, just stating what I went through. I picked up 4 tenths and 2mph with a good converter that was custom built for my setup.
I ran slower with my custom Neil Chance converter, so results may vary lol, glad yours worked out. My next one will probably be a Precision from Dave at Triple Edge Performance or a PTC, might be this winter.
ZZP Converters are crap. You should have had a custom converter built. Way overpriced for what it is. Not knocking it, just stating what I went through. I picked up 4 tenths and 2mph with a good converter that was custom built for my setup.
You sure it was the converter that gave you the extra MPH and better ET? IMO, I think Stock TC is the way to go on SC cars.
You had several other upgrades too and I THINK the drag radials were the best one.
I had to "dial down" the power on launch with my DHP tuner and use Street tires so I wouldn't launch too hard...
IMHO, If I used DR 's I could have lit it up off the line (1.59) but was too scared of breaking my stock trans as I usually drive to the track 40 miles away in some desolate area.
That's why I ONLY want 1.7 60' as DH just showed you can run low 10's with that 60'.
Originally posted by nosrac: Nice, Hope your Turbo is NOT too big...lol
Where are U mounting it and what intake are you using? I have some extra parts if you are in need...
It's a 6262sp t4 .68. I bought your flange adapter on ebay so I'm going to put it there and cut the trunk out for the piping, a2w ic, etc..
I was going to use the sc block off plate this winter to get it up and running, then start changing stuff gradually with dyno runs/small tune tweaks after each part. I'm having ostdyno do the first tune (he has actually tuned a 3800 turbo fiero before), then I'll have the shop tweak it after that. They build a bunch of 8-10 second turbo cars so they know what they are doing.
My goal right now is 11s at the beginning of the season next year, and then I'll go from there and see what I need. My build thread will start in December.
PM me with the parts you have, I'm still collecting...
[This message has been edited by Formula (edited 10-26-2012).]
There are a few reasons I didn't get a 1.3 60 this year... but the only one that really held me up was a broken timing chain last month as I never got a chance to use my un natural asperation.
The Neil chance converter concept is dumb.... I have the fastest setup with a Zzp.. fierox went slower with his as well as Canada... seems like a pretty dumb statement.
I've installed a custom higher stall converter in my car too, billet stator, fully welded, anti-balloon plate, etc. The 'stall' is still unknown, only estimated for the time being until its running, but if its too loose, it shouldn't a problem to have it modified.
Jones came into the office an hour late for the third time in one week and found the boss waiting for him. "What's the story this time, Jones?" he asked sarcastically. "Let's hear a good excuse for a change." Jones sighed, "Everything went wrong this morning, Boss. The wife decided to drive me to the station. She got ready in ten minutes, but then the drawbridge got stuck. Rather than let you down, I swam across the river (look, my suit's still damp), ran out to the airport, got a ride on Mr. Thompson's helicopter, landed on top of Radio City Music Hall, and was carried here piggyback by one of the Rockettes." "You'll have to do better than that, Jones," said the boss, obviously disappointed. "No woman can get ready in ten minutes."
