Damn man that sucks they scalped your engine bay with the sawzall. Amazing tools they are but people get crazy with them sometimes. I know occasionally I get that crazy look on my face when I pick mine up and pull the trigger. I try to only reach for it when nothing else will do so it keeps me safe hehehehe... I would think a decent tig welder could put it right back where it was without too much drama. If they make it removable as you say I would try to have them fab up some kinda reinforcement that is also removable to strengthen it. Really do not see why they needed to do that actually. Other than that it looks pretty good. Hoping to see another ten second fiero soon man...hehehe peace
Oh damn.. I cant believe they cut your car up like that. Did they even think to call and speak with you about it first? Dean wasn't allowed to cut my car at all. But he did notch a piece of the sheetmetal below the air box where it made a U. Now its an L for a few inches. Make sense?
I would be pissed....When u said they cut the trunk more I didn't know u meant the brace. They r gonna have to weld a brace in for sure. Can't beleive they did that without asking...
I would be pissed....When u said they cut the trunk more I didn't know u meant the brace. They r gonna have to weld a brace in for sure. Can't beleive they did that without asking...
I'm NOT mad...hurt maybe, but not mad as it is giving me the excuse to start over with a clean 88.
I blame myself for NOT making it very clear as I did authorize cutting for clearance but I meant trim as needed not butcher without remorse.
With tinytuner you can change the MAF failure mode. I set it to default airflow table instead of VE, and filled the top area of the table with 511.98 or whatever the max is. Now if it goes over 11500 HZ, it still gives it fuel. Good for about 23 psi, that I accidentally ran once lol. I have a afc 1.2 and may try using it to allow some more boost, but if it runs 9s August 11/12, then I probably won't bother.
------------------ 11.425 @115.60 Best 60' 1.543 seconds 3800 S/C 4T65E
New combo : Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36. 10.263 @ 134.44MPH
I have two N* Fieros. One by a Cadillac mechanic in NC. The other one by Fieroaddiction. Thy both lost their trunks. Fieroaddictions install included a cross brace with a turbo where the trunk used to be. The other one is still in need of a brace. He did a nice job and I don't know why he didn't leave a trunk. That is a gorgeous engine you have there!
Not having any trunk parts at all makes for a REALLY easy time working on things back there.
Also, a brace is not required, there is very little need for much back there if your car isnt rusting to bits. You might be able to feel some flex in some tight cornering, but it is not going to hurt you.
Car is pretty much Done....! He started it and ran it for 1 second....LOL
The Oil Feed line needs to be replaces at it got nicked and is leaking, Coolant hose with T connector to Heater hose needs to be fabricated, Exhaust Turbine muffler needs to be welded on.
Mechanic Bolted the Trunk Brace back on and I will get it welded back in. If he just cut it like that in the first place it would have been all good.
The Vacuum line routing need to be cleaned up, as it looks Aweful. There are a Few other areas that need to be tucked and clamped too. I should have it back by next week to break her in and fix any issues.
Not having any trunk parts at all makes for a REALLY easy time working on things back there.
Also, a brace is not required, there is very little need for much back there if your car isnt rusting to bits. You might be able to feel some flex in some tight cornering, but it is not going to hurt you.
I disagree...A brace is required across the portion that was removed. If not you will get much flex and with that type of power it will not be long before you start noticing the two sides getting closer together. When the tires hook up somthing has to flex and guess what that will be? Plain and simple a brace needs to be added back to replace the factory bracing that was removed.....
I disagree...A brace is required across the portion that was removed. If not you will get much flex and with that type of power it will not be long before you start noticing the two sides getting closer together. When the tires hook up somthing has to flex and guess what that will be? Plain and simple a brace needs to be added back to replace the factory bracing that was removed.....
Are you saying the cradle is going to bend and move the strut towers under power?
I disagree...A brace is required across the portion that was removed. If not you will get much flex and with that type of power it will not be long before you start noticing the two sides getting closer together. When the tires hook up somthing has to flex and guess what that will be? Plain and simple a brace needs to be added back to replace the factory bracing that was removed.....
Its a good thing you are not an engineer. My car seems to make decent power and I have not had any problems without this magical strut tower brace.
My GTP is rusted to bits, has TONS less metal holding the rear strut towers up than a fiero without a brace does, and it still handles better than my fiero does.
Are you saying the cradle is going to bend and move the strut towers under power?
NO...when the rear of the car squats, the rear struts compress then that force is transferred to the shock towers which now has no bracing from one side to the other. Are you going to see the issues right away...Nope...but over time you will start to see and feel the effects of not having that cross brace..YES......
Its a good thing you are not an engineer. My car seems to make decent power and I have not had any problems without this magical strut tower brace.
My GTP is rusted to bits, has TONS less metal holding the rear strut towers up than a fiero without a brace does, and it still handles better than my fiero does.
Good thing you are not an Engineer yourself as your methods of building/putting things together are piss poor and do not hold up long term. Yes your car does make decent power yet you can not make it down the track without if feeling like you are in a "Death Wobble". You said yourself you have not ran your car all out because of this issue yet you have not corrected the issue so you are unsure what is causing it. So to say your car has no issue without the "Magical Strut Tower Brace" is just you talking out your azz once again. This of course if a common issue with you in almost every Thread you post in. While you have done a great job throwing down a hell of a time with the Fiero you have not really accomplished anything that others haven't.
Your statement about your rusted out GTP doesn't help support your opinion on the strut tower brace....If your rusted out GTP handles better than your Fiero then your Fiero has some major issues going on with it....
You aren't either. And before you make some comment about me, I HAVE HAD education and training on production and high-performance suspension systems. YOU HAVE NOT.
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My car seems to make decent power and I have not had any problems without this magical strut tower brace.
Didn't you complain about having to let off the gas going down the dragstrip because your car became too "unstable" at the high speeds you were seeing? I seem to remember reading you comment about that in one of your posts either on here or on CGP which could suggest your "trunk-wall-less" chassis is having stability problems.
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My GTP is rusted to bits, has TONS less metal holding the rear strut towers up than a fiero without a brace does, and it still handles better than my fiero does.
A GTP has a what, 35% rear weight bias? The Fiero's is close to 65%. That's a huge difference when we are talking about suspension systems in the rears of cars. The W-body doesn't need a whole lot in the rear because there isn't a lot of weight back there (and not as much load that gets put on the rear suspension during turns). However, in a Fiero, it is a different story. Removing the trunk wall is a bad idea in a Fiero no matter which way you cut it (no pun intended). And if you do remove the rear trunk wall, simply replacing it with a single bar (strut tower brace) is not going to add the structural integrity back that you need. Pretty much the entire upper half of the Fiero trunk wall (or an X-brace) needs to be present to prevent the strut towers from parallelogramming (both folding over together one way or the other). I know to the untrained eye that relatively thin sheet metal that makes up your upper half of the trunk wall doesn't appear to do much, but it actually does a lot more than you would think. That boxed in section of added metal structure GM spot welded to the trunk wall functions more as a strut tower brace than anything else. The sheet metal of the wall is actually responsible for keeping both strut towers "square" with each other.
Now, for all of you who don't believe what I'm saying here, there is a simple model you can build at home that will show you exactly what I'm talking about. Get some 2x4's and build a simple, 4-sided rectangular structure with it. After you have built that, stand it up so one side is on the ground and the other 3 are standing up. Now, apply a sideways pressure to the top horizontal section going from one side to the other. What happens? You should be able to move the top horizontal piece from side to side (to a point) without applying excessive force and this will cause both vertical pieces to lean from side to side together. This demonstrates the parallelogramming instability issue which CAN be the result if you cut your entire Fiero trunk wall out (between the trunk area and the engine) and replace it with nothing or only a strut tower brace connecting the tops of the strut towers.
Now, if you add two more pieces of wood in the form of an X connecting each corner of your rectangle model, you'll notice the entire model becomes very rigid and will resist bending over from side to side. You can remove the X brace and replace it with a piece of stapled-on cardboard (that covers the entire frame) and you'll notice that even the cardboard prevents the structure from folding to one side or the other (within the strength limits of the cardboard, of course). This demonstrates the rigidity that sheet metal trunk wall adds to the Fiero chassis in the rear.
The space frame structure in the Fiero that runs on the upper outside and lower inside of both strut towers (from front to back) is not strong enough by itself, without the trunk wall, to prevent the strut towers from deflecting when they are subjected to lateral loads. Removing the trunk wall completely and not replacing it with at least some kind of X brace is a bad idea, and potentially makes the car unsafe; IMHO.
You don't need to cut the trunk to install a turbo in a Fiero. There are other places the turbo can be mounted that won't interfere with the trunk. I've done a couple and so have others. I don't buy the argument that having no trunk wall makes it easier to work on. The only thing the trunk covers up / makes it hard to get to in the turbo swaps I've done is the muffler and exhaust system from the turbo out. I can still easily get to everything on the engine in my turbo swaps, even with the exhaust in-place. But if pulling the exhaust is necessary, all that needs to be done to remove it is to unbolt it from the turbo and the exhaust hangers and it drops out in one-piece on my swaps (which takes about 10 min).
-ryan
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
Pretty much the entire upper half of the Fiero trunk wall (or an X-brace) needs to be present to prevent the strut towers from parallelogramming (both folding over together one way or the other).
I always liked this setup that was on EMX5636's car and if I were to have ever removed the trunk and cross-brace, I would probably have replaced it with something similar to this:
Originally posted by AkursedX: I always liked this setup that was on EMX5636's car and if I were to have ever removed the trunk and cross-brace, I would probably have replaced it with something similar to this:
Wait, DH ISN'T an engineer?!?! Surely you guys are mistaken, he mentions his ENGINEERING job as often as he can fit it into a conversation. I thought he was consulted by GM when they designed the 3800 I was waiting for this to pop up again after reading Darth's posts on RFT ripping into him about this from last year or the year before. You guys are wasting your time. In DH's mind why would anyone care about something stupid like stability, it doesn't make a car go faster.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 07-07-2012).]
Just because you guys have some opinion on the matter, it doesn't make you all right. The simple fact is I do not have any problems without stuff there.
Just because you guys have some opinion on the matter, it doesn't make you all right. The simple fact is I do not have any problems without stuff there.
So what makes your opinions any more right than anyone else's then? You certainly don't have any credentials that say you know what you are talking about in this matter; but yet, you just expect everyone to take your word for it.
Seems to me we’ve been down this road before. Some other posts made by you suggest you are of the opinion that you never had any problems hanging a 60+lb turbo off the rear exhaust manifold without any supporting brackets either. Funny how you don't run that turbo any more but yet you keep suggesting to everyone they can do it (without any supporting brackets) and you continue to INSIST they will never have any problems. Didn't work out so well for your buddy Justin, did it? I wonder how many other people took your advice on that matter at face value and will soon suffer from the same problems Justin had... And despite Justin's failure, you still won't accept blame for your bad advice / design flaws / opinions. So why should we expect anything different out of you on other matters?
The problem is you can't assume everyone else will have the exact same results that you have. People build their cars differently, drive them differently, and do different things with them than you ever will. GM spent millions of dollars developing the chassis on the Fiero so it would work with the suspension system they were going to hang on it. Part of this process was to account for situations the GM engineers thought the car might be subjected to in the hands of the customer. To assume there was no reason for that rear trunk wall to exist other than for the storage of luggage and golf clubs is just plain ignorant, especially when you consider they welded a boxed in section of metal to it in order to reinforce it.
I know why it's there. I tried to explain it to you in as plain of terms as I could think of why it is there. I even gave you a "project" model to build that would demonstrate the function of that trunk wall and how it keeps the strut towers standing up and prevents them from deflecting under lateral loads. I don't know what else you want me to do to try to make you understand why it (or at least some kind of X-brace) needs to be in there.
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you...
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-07-2012).]
Didn't work out so well for your buddy Justin, did it? I wonder how many other people took your advice on that matter at face value and will soon suffer from the same problems Justin had... And despite Justin's failure, you still won't accept blame for your bad advice / design flaws / opinions.
Wait, what the hell are you talking about? What is justin blaming me for here? What "failed" for justin?
I guarantee you don't have as much experience as I do. You haven't even had your driver's license that long.
BUT, having said that, it is worth noting that no amount of experience is good if it is wrong or if you don't learn anything from it. I used to work with a guy who never used a torque wrench. He used an air impact on everything; even plastic intake manifolds. But he had 25 years of experience working on cars and never saw a need for a torque wrench, at least that is what he told me.
Now you tell me, does that 25 years of experience he had make him right?
Wait, what the hell are you talking about? What is justin blaming me for here? What "failed" for justin?
Didn't Justin's rear exhaust manifold buckle and bend under the weight of his turbo; so much to the point the turbo was resting on his sway bar? Didn't you build that car or at least have some influence on the "design" of how the turbo was mounted to the engine? Didn't I warn you guys that was going to happen because you weren't using any brackets to support the weight of that turbo (and you argued with me about it - insisting the manifold, by itself, was plenty strong enough to support the weight of that turbo)?
And while we are on the subject of failures, what about Justin's previous engine (his L26)? Did his connecting rod not fail on him due to being overloaded because it was subjected to turbo boost? I seem to remember countless posts you were making arguing that N/A internals (even L26 N/A internals) could take just about anything you threw at them. You didn't change your tune on this subject until after Justin's L26 puked on the highway. Again, I warned you guys that was going to happen but you didn't listen.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-07-2012).]
Didn't Justin's rear exhaust manifold buckle and bend under the weight of his turbo; so much to the point the turbo was resting on his sway bar? Didn't you build that car or at least have some influence on the "design" of how the turbo was mounted to the engine? Didn't I warn you guys that was going to happen because you weren't using any brackets to support the weight of that turbo (and you argued with me about it - insisting the manifold, by itself, was plenty strong enough to support the weight of that turbo)?
And while we are on the subject of failures, what about Justin's previous engine (his L26)? Did his connecting rod not fail on him due to being overloaded because it was subjected to turbo boost? I seem to remember countless posts you were making arguing that N/A internals (even L26 N/A internals) could take just about anything you threw at them. You didn't change your tune on this subject until after Justin's L26 puked on the highway. Again, I warned you guys that was going to happen but you didn't listen.
Justins car would command negative timing, and he would drive for miles on it. Metal fails pretty easily at that temperature...
The L26 is stupid, you never said anything about them breaking, you just warned of the L36 pistons for years, and still nothing has failed in the L36 world in 500+hp cars.
Find me a post of you saying that the new powdered metal rods being weaker than the L36 rods and I will stand corrected.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-07-2012).]
Justins car would command negative timing, and he would drive for miles on it. Metal fails pretty easily at that temperature...
The L26 is stupid, you never said anything about them breaking, you just warned of the L36 pistons for years, and still nothing has failed in the L36 world in 500+hp cars.
Find me a post of you saying that the new powdered metal rods being weaker than the L36 rods and I will stand corrected.
Go back and read ALL of the posts I've ever made on the subject. I have been saying for years the 3800 "N/A" internals are weaker than the SC internals. And "N/A" applies to both the L26 and the L36, doesn't it? And I have not ONLY said the pistons were weaker. I've always said the connecting rods, piston pins, and the pistons were weaker.
While you are at it, go strap any turbo car to an in-door dyno and have them shut off the lights during a dyno run (if they will) and watch your exhaust system, especially between the engine and the turbo. IT WILL glow red hot during a full throttle pull, even if the tune is perfect. I wouldn't trust a stock 3800 rear manifold, by itself, to support the weight of even my puny TB0348 turbo; let alone a boat anchor Holset - especially when it is glowing red hot at full throttle. I have yet to see ANY factory turbo engine rely on an exhaust manifold alone to support the weight of a turbo. And there's good reason for this. Anyone who has done any metal work knows how malleable steel becomes when it is heated to the point of glowing red. And that rear exhaust manifold is made of some pretty thin steel considering what you are asking it to do when you hang a turbo off the end of it.
I'm sure others will agree with me in saying you can do what you want with YOUR car. Nobody cares. But please, stop giving out the bad advice. Just because you continue to say you don't have any problems with your stuff doesn't mean nobody else will. It's kind of like your illegal street racing: just because you haven't been busted yet doesn't mean it isn't illegal. And it certainly doesn't mean that everyone else can do it and not get caught.
I've done my best to explain how things work and why you should or should not do certain things. Like I said before, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. If you don't understand it, that's your problem.
l36 rods have been fine forever... nobody has broken them... L26 rods are the only ones that have been broken... at 500+whp... one time... at a total cost of $200.... Most fiero people spend that on absolutely nothing.
l36 rods have been fine forever... nobody has broken them... L26 rods are the only ones that have been broken... at 500+whp... one time... at a total cost of $200.... Most fiero people spend that on absolutely nothing.
Scott, all BS aside. You're losing this one. I read the thread on RFT where you and Ryan went at this very subject. I remember you saying you were planning on putting a brace back there, but also made sure to say it wasn't because of Ryan's pressure. You said it was too wild at certain speeds. If you put some cash into the stability, you might even beat your personal best and maybe everyone else's. Now I know you're going to come back with a response that says something like you have nothing to prove, but we all know this is all about ego. If we all listened to each other and learned what we could, we'd be much further along. Ryan has a 18 month wait time for a reason, he's good at what he does.
nosrac, I think the cross brace is a good idea. Of course if yours is done before mine, I'll be bugging you for a ride.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 07-07-2012).]
I was waiting for this to pop up again after reading Darth's posts on RFT ripping into him about this from last year or the year before. You guys are wasting your time. In DH's mind why would anyone care about something stupid like stability, it doesn't make a car go faster.
