Let me elaborate, my previous post was referring to a tube-frame equivalent. All the mounting points would be the same, but it wouldn't be an exact replica of the existing chassis.
Let me elaborate, my previous post was referring to a tube-frame equivalent. All the mounting points would be the same, but it wouldn't be an exact replica of the existing chassis.
Thanks, me too. Unfortunately, as I stated originally, it would have to be a labor of love for the community, you'd never get your R&D money back. Even if you could find people to pay $5K or more, you'd never sell enough to recoup the costs. How awesome would some of Archie's monsters be though, on a new tube chassis? Hopefully lighter and stronger than the original, but with all the right mounting points. Ah...If I had the resources guys, I would totally do it, just for the fun of seeing what people would do with them.
How awesome would some of Archie's monsters be though, on a new tube chassis? Hopefully lighter and stronger than the original, but with all the right mounting points.
I've been asking for years for various Fiero parts vendor to make aluminum door beams to reduce the weight. They are all afraid of the accident liability. ...Apparently swapping in engines with 3x the power or chopping the top is a liability-free operation... O_o
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-11-2013).]
I've been asking for years for various Fiero parts vendor to make aluminum door beams to reduce the weight. They are all afraid of the accident liability. ...Apparently swapping in engines with 3x the power or chopping the top is a liability-free operation... O_o
I don't think anyone wants to pay $$$$ to have them crash tested...
I've been asking for years for various Fiero parts vendor to make aluminum door beams to reduce the weight. They are all afraid of the accident liability. ...Apparently swapping in engines with 3x the power or chopping the top is a liability-free operation... O_o
Someone on here WAS making them (door and bumper beams). Or at least made them for his car. Coppertop build maybe?
Originally posted by retroman: I don't think anyone wants to pay $$$$ to have them crash tested...
If you didn't read between the lines... Who paid for the chop-top to be roll-over tested? ETC...
With the after-market, all products can be labelled as "for off-road use only"...or even "for display only" and if I chose to drive a car with this mod on the street, then shame on me...
You can't tell me that tube-frame Fieros also pass federal crash safety tests...
Weight-savings pays you back every time you drive your car or apply the brakes. Heck even clutch dumps would have a lower damage to drivetrain risk... With the cost of fuel continually rising, $12k for an aluminum frame would probably pay itself back in around 10 years...and would be a net gain there-after just as a daily driver. If it was for a competetive track-car setup then the return could be even quicker with winnings payouts...
If you drive as much as I do, you spend atleast $60/week on gas * 52 weeks * 10 years = $31,200. If I could improve my fuel efficiency by 20%, I'd save over $6k IF gas prices don't go up. You know they are going to continue to rise, right? That $6+k could very well turn to $12k...
The difference Lou, is the VIN is attached to the frame. Your point is completely valid for door beams, but I still understand hesitation to make direct replacements for a safety item. Regarding replacing the frame, technically the car could no longer be titled as a Fiero. Maybe unless the firewall with the VIN plate was retained in the frame? I dunno. This definitely brings up a whole other issue with making a replacement frame.
The difference Lou, is the VIN is attached to the frame. Your point is completely valid for door beams, but I still understand hesitation to make direct replacements for a safety item. Regarding replacing the frame, technically the car could no longer be titled as a Fiero. Maybe unless the firewall with the VIN plate was retained in the frame? I dunno. This definitely brings up a whole other issue with making a replacement frame.
Well, you could re-title it as a custom-built car which would not be subject to Federal regulations. How do you think Factory Five cars are titled? PS, I did some computer consulting for them back in 2002...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-12-2013).]
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Someone on here WAS making them (door and bumper beams). Or at least made them for his car. Coppertop build maybe?
actually... 7075 t651 aluminum is stronger than many steels per square inch. 7075-T651T651 temper 7075 has an ultimate tensile strength of at least 67,000–78,000 psi (462–538 MPa) and yield strength of 54,000–67,000 psi (372–462 MPa). It has a failure elongation of 3–9%.
The 51 suffix has no bearing on the heat treatment but denotes that the material is stress relieved by controlled stretching.
it weighs apx 42% of comparible steel counterpart.
Well, you could re-title it as a custom-built car which would not be subject to Federal regulations. How do you think Factory Five cars are titled? PS, I did some computer consulting for them back in 2002...
That's really cool, love those guys! I designed the logo for Mark's Smyth Performance company.
My understanding is that for a car to be titled as a "component car" or whatever, the frame and engine must not be from the same car. As in, the exact same car. Supposedly, if you have an engine from another example of the same car, some states would let that slide. For this, since the entire frame is different, you might be able to get away with it. I suppose how you go about it would depend on your location.
Yea, I used to live in Mass and my brother actually worked in their shipping dept for a few years. At one point they were considering the Fiero chasis for their supercar but went with the custom frame in the end. The dyno that I did on my stock 88GT (112 rwhp with 100k miles, no EGR only mod) was at one of their open house days where they had a portable dyno on site that day.
I fixed some internal networking issues they were having. They had purchased the same ERP software I was using at my then current employer...who I had just left so I was also trying to land a job as their IT guy but they weren't quite big enough to wanna spend money on a dedicated IT guy.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-12-2013).]
I like So anyway, since I have a startup company and needed to ask GM about licensing anyway, I decided I would just give it a shot and start asking questions about obtaining blueprints and any other info on how the Fiero was made. It doesn't hurt to ask. I would really like to see this go somewhere, but as stated before, the cost to manufacture has to be reasonable so those savings can get passed on to the enthusiast.
You do know you can buy a low mileage 88 GT for less. I have pass over GTs that have had around 10K miles and never saw weather for $8K complete. These cars are still around. Even a lesser clean car can be found if you really want one for less. You may have to go more then 20 miles to get it but they are often for sale. Even some of the GM show cars only sold for around $17K complete.
The best thing anyone could do right now is to make patch panels for those who have a lot invested in their cars that have found common repairable sections that need replaced.
If you are going to dream may as well make it with a carbon fiber tub.
Totally agree that the niche market of the Fiero doesn't justify that kind of expense. Not until every single last rust free Fiero is gone, or there is another leap in technology. Someday a kid working in his Mom's basement and he'll just load in the Fiero frame file into his 3D printer and choose whatever material he wants, (aluminum, carbon fiber, whatever). Until then forget it.
Oh by the way, speaking of carbon fiber, the folks at NASA Langley Research Center made an Orion Capsule completely out of carbon fiber, just to see if they could do it, and guess what? It ended up weighing about the same if not more than the Aluminum one!! So carbon fiber is not so great when you are worried about cracks because they are catastrophic.
I dont, sorry. There was a guy doing quite an extensive build on his car (I think it was the ECOTEC coppertop build) and he made them for his car. I asked about making me a set and he said he would consider it but I never pursued it after all the crap I was going thru with Whodeanies. I honestly didn't want to buy parts for a car I didn't think I was ever going to get back or if I did, I would have to redo everything. So here I am redo'ing everything and now I amm trying to remember who makes those aluminum braces! My memory is driving me crazy! Or at least, I think thats what is driving me crazy!
------------------ 1988 Fiero GT Ruined by Dean Cain of Whodeanie's Customs
Might note even companies like Hennessey are using a Lotus to base the Venom on. It was a much easier and faster way to provide a chassis that was light, strong and ready made to help control liability. It also provided lighting systems and other system needed for meeting regulations.
The cost and liability could be great if one was not careful on how you do this. Some idiot runs one into a brick wall and his family could own you for the rest of your life or end your corporation if you were smart enough to do so.
This is why so many companies fail it is a sticky path to protect yourself as well as coming up with a product that people are willing to pay enough for it to justify the cost and make a profit.
Some of the best have struggled with this and failed.
Many of the kit cars are safe because they are sold as kit but they still can face challenges.
If I buy a frame and mount a car on it, isn't that the same as buying a "kit"? https://www.factoryfive.com/kits/gtm-supercar/what-you-get/
Well, I have 2 spare doors...and a friend or two who like to weld...perhaps we can start with removing the beams then once they are off, go about recreating them in aluminum...
Well, I have 2 spare doors...and a friend or two who like to weld...perhaps we can start with removing the beams then once they are off, go about recreating them in aluminum...
It's frustrating to me that here we are talking about aluminum like it's some exotic metal. It's the most abundant metal on Earth, and yet why steel is still being used at all is a mystery to me. At a minimum aluminum should be the starting point, and then if more performance is needed move to exotic metals like titanium.
for this whole post , i will call aluminum AL cause it is easier .first of , recreating the entire fiero frame as it came from the factory in AL is impossible because no one has the original tooling that we know of .i really think one of the aftermarket body producers probably has the tooling stored somewhere because the amount of fiero's built would have justified buying it cheap when production ended just in case . but that is not available to us .the best approach is to use the original centre section and cut off the front and rear subframes and weld up steel upper and lower front and rear mounting points and then build front and rear AL subframes to bolt to them .this is what i hope to do for my next project .i have a friend that is an AL welder and fabricator and he is willing to help .the most complicated part of the fiero and every other production car ever built is the passenger compartment .so why reinvent the wheel ? even the most rusted out fiero frame has a repairable centre section .you will notice that gushotrod used part of the centre section in his tube frame build .this save him probably 400+ hours of design and fab time .fiero frames in my area are getting so weak from corrosion that people are now getting killed in accidents that when the cars were new would not even have required an ambulance .weld in replacement sections have become a necessity to keep these cars safe .so i think there is a market for those pieces .and people are offering them already . i do not think the project i have in mind will lower the weight of the finished car substantially .the body parts of a fiero are heavy , mainly front and rear hoods .my goal is to be able to adapt readily available suspension components to make the car handle like a supercar .and this would not include mounting for the 88 suspension .the only strut suspension that is super car status is made by porsche .and why bother with a strut when you have room for upper and lower control arms ? the 88 suspension is better than 84 - 87 but that is it .if you are going to build a new frame , using 88 components would be dumb .
just use a factory five gtm chassis. mid engine by design, tubular cold rolled chassis with c5 vette front and rear suspension. uses porsche g50 or mendeola transaxle and ls based engines. not that expensive. 20grand in kit form. finished out i have seen them in the 50grand ballpark upwards depending on mods. 50grand for a supercar isnt that expensive. imo. AL is the chemistry designation for aluminum already so using is a great way to abbreviate it.
the heavily modded rectangular tube chassis pictured above looks like a fiero cabin, but it is sporting c5 vette suspension. easy brake and suspension geometry upgrades to begin with. adjustable spherical joints are a nice touch as well. nice chassis.
These days aluminum is cheaper than steel. That wasn't always the case. I recently read that GM is experimenting with magnesium frames now.
They've been experimenting with different materials for different things forever. There's (or there was at one point) a C4 Vette in the museum in Bowling Green, with the whole body made out of Carbon/Kevlar.
If aluminum were the end all to so many things, Ducati wouldn't still be using tubular steel.
Ducati does use aluminum. It depends on the bike. They use steel, aluminum, and magnesium in their bike frames. The new 1199 superbikes are all aluminum.
My 1989 Canondale road bike is aluminum.
But there are better materials to use than aluminum for different things, and new materials being created all the time. There are even bicycle frames made out of bamboo and resin.
The problem with Aluminum is not so much the cost anymore but the difficulty of repair. The Fiero space frame gets bent up you pull it back out. Aluminum gets bent often it creates a weak spot where you bend it or it splits.
I remember when the NSX came out and often a simple hit to one end would total a car. They have improved thing for repair but cost is still a factor they need to look at for repair. It is easy to replace a door or hood but a main support cage area for a car can kill the car cost wise or safety wise for repair.
This is why you only really see it on expensive cars today as they are worth the higher cost repair.
Carbon Fiber has it's place in many areas of a car and can most times be lighter depending on how you use it. The real issue with it is the labor to make it. The hours it takes to make parts and the slow production adds to the price. GM is working with a company to do it faster and cut the time in half with molded carbon fiber. Others are working with Boeing and others to cut labor time and cost. Once they do that these parts will be very common.
I wonder how much wieght could be shaved by building a tube frame incorporated into the stock tub. Looks like it would be a good project for an individual but I doubt there would be a big market for it. I would like to see someone more talented than me start to snatch up these rusted cars that are going to the crusher and repair them and sell them as a bare frame with a clear title. You could use this to rebuild a rusty car and exchange the frame which could be repaired and resold. Seems more feasable than building an entire space frame.
The problem with Aluminum is not so much the cost anymore but the difficulty of repair. The Fiero space frame gets bent up you pull it back out. Aluminum gets bent often it creates a weak spot where you bend it or it splits.
You think Aluminum is difficult to repair imagine repairs on a carbon fiber car. One hit and it's not only totaled, not just economically but physically impossible to repair. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because cars are becoming a disposable commodity anyway. The car collecting hobby may be permanently relegated to 80s cars and older.
Yeah, something like that. But I'd include all the factory mounting locations and wouldn't have a brick or piece of wood holding up the steering column, lol! And "Ashton Martin"? Who's that?
looks really neat ,really simple and uses available suspension from a vette .as for the spelling , he is from quebec , everything else is near perfect he might not even speak english .great job as far as i am concerned .
I've been asking for years for various Fiero parts vendor to make aluminum door beams to reduce the weight. They are all afraid of the accident liability. ...Apparently swapping in engines with 3x the power or chopping the top is a liability-free operation... O_o
After doing the chop on my car and knowing how it is done and what is changed I actually think it is stronger now than stock, the welds are full across the entire back vs spot welds and in places the metal is overlapped and double thick from factory. The roof seam is also bonded and filled using various methods that also are way stronger than it was stock. the roll testing would be silly based on the fact of convertibles alone. I hardly doubt the windshield frame in itself would protect anyone.
After doing the chop on my car and knowing how it is done and what is changed I actually think it is stronger now than stock, the welds are full across the entire back vs spot welds and in places the metal is overlapped and double thick from factory. The roof seam is also bonded and filled using various methods that also are way stronger than it was stock. the roll testing would be silly based on the fact of convertibles alone. I hardly doubt the windshield frame in itself would protect anyone.
Or for that matter, those silly style bars many convertibles have. I'd rather go with a real roll bar or take my chances on having nothing there at all.
So anyway, since I have a startup company and needed to ask GM about licensing anyway, I decided I would just give it a shot and start asking questions about obtaining blueprints and any other info on how the Fiero was made. It doesn't hurt to ask. I would really like to see this go somewhere, but as stated before, the cost to manufacture has to be reasonable so those savings can get passed on to the enthusiast.
