The Customer liked the LS3 6 speed so much that he now wants to build another of his dream cars with a high reving, lower torque LSx engine that he has had custom built.
So this build will be using one of the original Fiero rebody kits which is the 246 Dino originally built by Norm V.
This will be a much easier to build car than the Miura was, but it will be cool & have plenty of engine.
We've been working on this car for a couple of weeks. So, this weekend I'll try to get this up to date.
Growing up there was a neighbor with a red Dino-Fiero Kit. They called his a "ROMA." It is still one of my favorite Fiero kits of all time. It just fit the Fiero frame perfectly, and it's pretty timeless. I look forward to seeing this build. I didn't even realize the Dino kits were available anymore. Too cool!
Wow I have ALWAYS loved the 246 dino GT and did not know they made kits for them out of the fiero. Honestly I would think that the roofline of the fiero would not be right but I am imagining that part will be gone when you are finished. This should be an interesting build and I look forward to watching. I also find it interesting how you are mounting the LSX engines in the cradles. It appears they are rigidly mounted and I would love to see some more pics of the way you mounted them as I am going to be fabbing my own mounts for the 3800 when I get to that point. Do you already have the body in your shop? Thanks for taking the time to post these threads and show all the pictures of your work. This one should be fun. Is the car needing to be stretched for the kit? Peace
Honestly looking at the pictures it seems like it is gonna be a real ***** to change the spark plugs on the engine once it is installed no? Sure is a tight fit front to back it looks like. Does this setup require some custom fabbed axles or can you use some factory GM axles or pieces parts of factory GM axles assembled to work? Peace
Originally posted by Pete Matos: Honestly looking at the pictures it seems like it is gonna be a real ***** to change the spark plugs on the engine once it is installed no? Sure is a tight fit front to back it looks like.
The factory installed spark plugs on the LSx engines are low maintenance items, that shouldn't need to be changed until about 100K miles.
Originally posted by carbon: That Miura was beautiful...
Yeah, I know we're pretty proud of that car.
Thanks.
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Originally posted by smartaxel: Growing up there was a neighbor with a red Dino-Fiero Kit. They called his a "ROMA." It is still one of my favorite Fiero kits of all time. It just fit the Fiero frame perfectly, and it's pretty timeless. I look forward to seeing this build. I didn't even realize the Dino kits were available anymore. Too cool!
Yeah this is the Roma. I think it was once called the Carter Roma. It was one (if not the 1st) Fiero rebody from around 1985 or 1986. Norm Vandermee (Norm's fiberglass) was involved with it from the beginning & has the molds now. I was at Norm's on Wednesday to pick up the last of the body parts & Norm told me the history of who, what & when but I don't recall all of it now.
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Originally posted by Pete Matos:
Wow I have ALWAYS loved the 246 dino GT and did not know they made kits for them out of the fiero. Honestly I would think that the roofline of the fiero would not be right but I am imagining that part will be gone when you are finished. This should be an interesting build and I look forward to watching. I also find it interesting how you are mounting the LSX engines in the cradles. It appears they are rigidly mounted and I would love to see some more pics of the way you mounted them as I am going to be fabbing my own mounts for the 3800 when I get to that point. Do you already have the body in your shop? Thanks for taking the time to post these threads and show all the pictures of your work. This one should be fun. Is the car needing to be stretched for the kit? Peace
Pete
This is a Dino Replica redesigned to fit on a Fiero chassis. It retains the original Fiero roofline.
The wheelbase on the real dino (92.1") was 1.3" shorter than the Fiero (93.4").
As for the mounts, We've installed 35 or more LS engines into Fieros. I've got build threads on 8 or more of those on PFF. I could go look them up & cross post the pics here but them you'd have none of the sense of adventure that you'd get in looking for them yourself.
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Originally posted by Pete Matos:
Honestly looking at the pictures it seems like it is gonna be a real ***** to change the spark plugs on the engine once it is installed no? Sure is a tight fit front to back it looks like. Does this setup require some custom fabbed axles or can you use some factory GM axles or pieces parts of factory GM axles assembled to work? Peace
Pete
As has been said, plug life on LS engines is quite long. As you search my other LS build threads, You'll see that there is plenty of room to get to the plugs. Especially if you look at them from underneath.
Yes we've been making kits to install the G6 6 speeds into Fieros for about 6 or 7 years.
For the transmission swap kits, there are detailed parts lists & prices on my web site but they're a bit hard to find the 1st time. Let me guide you to them...... Go to this web page http://www.v8archie.com/v8Archie/Prod3.htm Then just under the pictures on the left side is the word “Economy” click on it & you get the parts list & prices for the Economy 6 Speed kit. Just under the pictures on the right side is the word “Master” click on it & you get the parts list & prices for the Master-Build version of the 6 Speed kit. Read all the material & it will tell you the differences between the 2 versions of the transmission kits.
Thanks for sharing this with us. You do some incredible work at your shop. Very few shops left that would even attempt stuff like this. I am certain that the customer will again be pleased with the new build.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
With the engine fitting done, we pulled the engine & trans. off of the cradle to send the cradle out for Powdercoating. We put an old cradle up under the car so we can work on the body & converting the brake & transmission lines from automatic to stick.
Then we pulled the transmission apart to send the internals out for Cryo.
We pulled the original radiator out...
We removed the headliner & interior parts so that we coud take off the original body.
We also pulled out the steering column.
We then installed a stick shift pedal assembly & the other parts necessary to convert from the automatic to the stick shift transmission.
Then we sit the rear clip on the chassis to see how it fits & looks.
Then a little trial fit of the front clip, we had to cut some metal away to clear the underside of the headlight openings.
You can't really permanetly mount any of the body parts until you've done some test fitting on these parts along with the door panels, hood, decklid & rocker panels..
With almost any body conversion, If you try to mount something like the front or rear clip before looking at the door skins or other parts, you're going to get it in the wrong place & then you get to do it again.
At the time we were at this point, we didn't have the hood or decklid. I picked them up at Norm's Wed. 12-26-12.
Next, we'll look at some of the fitting with the other panesl.
That would be handy. I'd like to see how the door panels are attached to the door frames. Norm told me that he used to bond the door panels on. I'd like to bolt the door panels on so that the car can be serviced if something comes up down the road.
I told Norm that & he gave me the look that said, "I told you I bond them on & when you get far enough along you're gonna see why. Then you'll remember this look I'm giving you now." LOL (<~~ he was serious the LOL is mine ). Needless to say that is where we're at now.
So, if you can, open the door & take a picture of the area where the door panel would bolt onto the door frame. Do the same area in the front if you can get a picture of it. Email the pics to Archie@v8archie.com.
Thanks
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-29-2012).]
I really like the car but, to me, the hardest thing will be deciding what to do with the rear roof (high spot) and quarter windows..... Maybe another chop-top is coming down the line soon
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 12-30-2012).]
I really like the car but, to me, the hardest thing will be deciding what to do with the rear roof (high spot) and quarter windows..... Maybe another chop-top is coming down the line soon
That is the one spot I don't like either. I know Archie does not like to chop TTops, but if this was a hard top, I'd have to vote for a chop on it. I think the car would look awesome with a chop on it. If a chop is out of the question, then I'd like to see that area painted black with some tinted windows so it would look more like a window.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 12-30-2012).]
I really like the car but, to me, the hardest thing will be deciding what to do with the rear roof (high spot) and quarter windows..... Maybe another chop-top is coming down the line soon
I was thinking the same thing but perhaps was feeling a little too polite to point it out. Given the finishing on the Miura I'd think not even a choptop but a full fab, the roofline on the Dino is quite curvy, something the Fiero's most certainly isn't
On a Google image search for 246 Dino, you really get a lot of different roof & 1/4 windows on these cars....
I think that the 1/4 window area on the Romo was ment to replicate the GTS.
I know that the customer asked about converting to a Targa Top. I wasn't interested in doing a Targa top because it would be impossible to keep the Fiero chassis as strong with the roof cutout. That idea was dropped in favor of a "T" top. It "kinda" looks like a Targa, but more important the chassis keeps it's integrity & allows the extereme engine & suspension he wants to use on this car.
I do know that back in the day the Roma was never described as an exact replica of the Dino. Just like the Mera was never called an exact replica of the 308.
I was thinking the same thing but perhaps was feeling a little too polite to point it out. Given the finishing on the Miura I'd think not even a choptop but a full fab, the roofline on the Dino is quite curvy, something the Fiero's most certainly isn't
I wondered the same thing in my initial comments in the thread but I guess I assumed that the whole roof would be removed in favor of a fiberglass body roof/body. The Dino is quite a curvaceous little beastie and making the considerably more angular Fiero body work with it is kind of a stretch without some serious tweaking. I agree that a chop that left the rear of the roof a Tad lower would help a lot and doing something with the sail panel area would help quite a bit. That is a real tough body to replicate, I remember the Kelmark GT was a total kit car body and that thing still missed the Mark quite a bit either accidentally or intentionally dunno..... its a tough nut to crack I think. Perhaps this is why that Miura project looks so nice the roofline just seems to look very close to the original somehow and this is very important to the overall looks of Tue car. Peace
Pete
[This message has been edited by Pete Matos (edited 12-30-2012).]
I looked up this thread and was thinking of asking about a chop too. Roof looks too high to me, but I have a hard time second guessing Italian styling. Seems a little sacrilegious. I might like it better with a windshield sloped more and a lower top but it definitely would not be a replica anymore. It's been one of my favorite older Ferraris for a long time.
Originally posted by Archie: That would be handy. I'd like to see how the door panels are attached to the door frames. Norm told me that he used to bond the door panels on. I'd like to bolt the door panels on so that the car can be serviced if something comes up down the road.
So, if you can, open the door & take a picture of the area where the door panel would bolt onto the door frame. Do the same area in the front if you can get a picture of it. Email the pics to Archie@v8archie.com.
Thanks
Archie
I was kind of joking about giving you advice since you have proven that you and your guys are the masters at this kind of work. Having said that...
First, I bought my car with the Dino body installed (and apparently driven for a dozen years or so). The installation job was terrible and/or had deteriorated significantly over the years. Pretty much every panel had damage of some sort. The front clip was held on with 3 wood screws. What I'm getting at is how mine was put together may not have been as per Norms instructions, but it did seem to work. Having said that, my door skins were not bonded on.
I don't see why they have to be bonded on since the Fiero ones aren't. Like yourself, I wanted to be able to remove them should I need to later. I'll send you some pictures I have showing those areas. Maybe my door skins were modified at the front and rear; I don't know but you'll be able to tell comparing them with yours.
I should also mention that I'm not trying to replicate an exact Dino, thus I'm making a lot of small changes. I didn't like the way the outer door releases were done (basically a wire sticking up at the rear top of the door) so I've removed them and put solenoids and poppers. The rear 1/4 window area that people don't seem to like, I didn't either. I've filled in the front 2 vents and am going to add a scoop, like the Porsche 904 had; the last vent does lead to the engine area so it will actually be somewhat functional for ventilation. I didn't like the large one-piece rear decklid so I've cut it into 2 pieces like the Dino (trunk and engine cover).
This is your thread Archie, so I don't want to intrude too much. Just thought I'd give you some things to think about in certain areas of the car.
I agree with everyone else this car will not look right without a custom made roof and a different windscreen put in. I also have to ask why you think welding an engine in a car is better than using rubber or polyurethane mounts.
I was kind of joking about giving you advice since you have proven that you and your guys are the masters at this kind of work. Having said that...
First, I bought my car with the Dino body installed (and apparently driven for a dozen years or so). The installation job was terrible and/or had deteriorated significantly over the years. Pretty much every panel had damage of some sort. The front clip was held on with 3 wood screws. What I'm getting at is how mine was put together may not have been as per Norms instructions, but it did seem to work. Having said that, my door skins were not bonded on.
I don't see why they have to be bonded on since the Fiero ones aren't. Like yourself, I wanted to be able to remove them should I need to later. I'll send you some pictures I have showing those areas. Maybe my door skins were modified at the front and rear; I don't know but you'll be able to tell comparing them with yours.
I should also mention that I'm not trying to replicate an exact Dino, thus I'm making a lot of small changes. I didn't like the way the outer door releases were done (basically a wire sticking up at the rear top of the door) so I've removed them and put solenoids and poppers. The rear 1/4 window area that people don't seem to like, I didn't either. I've filled in the front 2 vents and am going to add a scoop, like the Porsche 904 had; the last vent does lead to the engine area so it will actually be somewhat functional for ventilation. I didn't like the large one-piece rear decklid so I've cut it into 2 pieces like the Dino (trunk and engine cover).
This is your thread Archie, so I don't want to intrude too much. Just thought I'd give you some things to think about in certain areas of the car.
Rick
Yeah, i saw your email & sent you back an email.
I'll compare your pics to my parts tomorrow.
Thanks a lot.
P.S. I know what you mean about getting & trying to update a car that has been assembled for a long time. You find all kinds of things that were done weird back in the day.
Looking forward to seeing you and your boys do this up. I suggest you add an extended screen we bought for the 355 kits. I think the extended screen would really finish this build off beautifully.
The Roma kit is probably the number one reason I started looking at Fieros. I still have the big Kit Car Buyer's Guide I bought back in about 1986. It features the Roma. I have also seen some convertible examples of the Roma. Although I never compared them directly against an actual 246, I've always found the Romas to be beautiful cars. Once everything is in place, you'll see that the roof does not need to be chopped.
With the hips the Dino has this thing would make a GORGEOUS topless roadster (though with your targa comments I know that's not your vision, just had to say it)
[This message has been edited by Tusch (edited 12-31-2012).]
With the hips the Dino has this thing would make a GORGEOUS topless roadster (though with your targa comments I know that's not your vision, just had to say it)
Archie, I agree that the GTS model is closest to your customers replica body style. This thread made me go to my automotive library, maybe 30 books, and find my copy of Ferrari Dino 206Gt, 246GT abd GTS by Ian Webb. A few things of note while reviewing the book, The cars were notoriously underdeveloped, second gear could not be found when the vehicle was cold, they were sold with no rearview side mirrors, only the interior rearview, they were very unreliable, even having two seperate ignition systems, so when the electronic one failed, the standard points ignition could be switched to as backup. AND, they rusted profusely, some having to be restored within the first 10 years on the road. I'm positive that when the one you and your team are building rolls out of the shop , that it will never have the problems the real thing had. That said, it still does not prevent a person from having always dreamed of owning one! If you smooth the rear sail where the three vents are, it will look much more like the original. The way the area is raised, it kinda looks like an afterthought. And of course the curved rear window would add some real authenticity and probably a whole lot of money. I will be following this closely and I envy your customer for owning two of my favorite cars. Can't wait!
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Both of those cars are in my top ten of most beautiful designs. Both are passion personafied. 
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). Needless to say that is where we're at now.
