I had some questions but don't know enough either way to say anything for sure. I got the meth/water injection as a counter balance for the possible weakness and for the bump in power. Given the purpose of the car it should be ok don't you think?
Depends on what mix you are using and how much you had to lean it out. I would assume you are 50/50 mix? Just to be clear, I am NOT nit-picking, just trying to help.
I had some questions but don't know enough either way to say anything for sure. I got the meth/water injection as a counter balance for the possible weakness and for the bump in power. Given the purpose of the car it should be ok don't you think?
My opinion is I would have it tuned at a level that is not dependent on the meth injection. That way u take out that variable if something in that system goes wrong.
I'm personally not sold on the undercar intercooler. It seems to work ok as seen on the car Darth built (can't remember whose car), but I doubt it gets as much or as cool of air as a front mount setup. Meth is great, as long as the pump doesn't fail, same issue as a/w, but with a corrosive liquid instead of water. Seen guys loose engines because tank runs out or pump dies. I personally would run a "Alky control" pump if I was to run it. Razor has a pump designed to run straight meth, and seems to be the pump/kit of choice in the Turbo Buick Community. Even at that the pump should be refreshed or replaced every couple of years, just to prevent issues with failure. If I end up running meth it will be built from Razor's parts. But I've been to 20 psi on 94 octane with my setup, boost I never thought I'd run without good gas or meth.
Looks like you've had one hell of a nice setup built, I would enjoy it for a while and see how it works. You'll likely be happy as is for a long time. If your anything like me, the speed will be awesome for a while, then you will start to get the itch for more. I was building a 13 second car once lol. Once you've driven it for a while you'll likely find the stuff that works and the stuff that could work better, and go from there. I think it should be a good combo.
I'll let Dave answer any questions about the injection system and intercooler. I spoke with the guy that started Devil's Own and he was very informative. Between what he told me and what Dave found out using one in his own car, I figured it would give me extra protection against KR and heat soak. I'm not going to be dogging the car out every time I drive it so the risk of running out should be lower and if Dave only tuned it using the meth over 14 psi then I should have a safer zone under this level right?
Justin, I don't know. It's hard to gauge tone over the net. If you're being sincere, Dave did say this dyno gives about 15 HP lower than the other one he's used. We're also using a T3 turbo that's only supposed to be good up to the 500 HP level, and even though we should be over that at BHP, we are only at 16 psi. But then again, like you said before, back in the day a 12 second run seemed fast. Maybe you were running a little lower than what you thought. Either way I'm cool with you being faster than me.
Mstangs, you better hope it doesn't have any issues in the future. Guess who the closest 3800 Fiero guy to me is.
I thought it would have made more power. Maybe I wasn't making as much as I thought I was on a stock cam.
Turbo is smaller than my hx35..... exhaust side is well less than half the size of the vgt and blower side is 48lb/m, while yours is 62lb/m.
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we are only at 16 psi.
You wont be able to go much higher and make significant power gains. That turbo is a "bolt on" upgrade that the GN guys fiddle with around here and we have freaked some of those cars out with some crazy drag setups running e85 and 28+psi to hardly make 450whp / 125mph traps. a "normal" GN with that turbo would trap like 120ish on 17psi.
I agree the tune shouldn't be dependant on the meth, but if not tuned around it the a/f ratio gets too rich and you'll actually lose power. This is what I plan to discuss with Michael when he picks it up. The car runs on 14psi without meth fine, but that was also on cooler than Texas temps too. I would have loved to had the car ready his past summer, but it wasn't possible due to the shop. I wound up hiring another technician, but it took 3 months to get him to be able to read my mind and anticipate what I want done. (I am not easy to work for). The dyno shop suggested connecting the boost controller to the meth pump as a safety, also. I'll look into the AEM truboost we are running to see if there is an option for that.
I knew if I mentioned the turbo size initially we would take a lot of heat for it and I didn't want that to dissuade Michael. I knew this setup would be good for 400whp which was our goal, but the end result really wasn't about the numbers. The location of the turbo also limited the size we were able to work with around the F40. The plus side is that the power comes on like a supercharged car.
The camshaft is a little overkill, but the turbo smooths it out. My only regret is not doing stage 3 heads. I imagine that the better flow would help, but what's done is done. I feel the car is right where we planned for it to be.
great job , runs really well and a good looking install .the HP tuners is a really good investment .it is nice to change the tune a little at a time without paying every time .my setup was 650.00 , i dont know what they are worth now .the water meth setup i use is a Snow progresive unit and it uses a Shur-flo diaphram pump .these pumps are designed to handle all kinds of chemicals so spraying watermeth does not affect them at all .i even used a shur-flo pump as an oil scavenger pump to send the hot oil from the turbo back to the crankcase .ran it for 4 years and it still works great .i use my windshield washer bottle to feed the watermeth .i just give the windshield a quick squirt to make sure i am not out .the water meth only comes on at about 6 PSI and increases spray as the boost increases .so during normal driving it does not come on at all .i used to have an air to air in the same location as the build car and my charge temps would go into the red at boost .it helped over not having an intercooler , but not enough .with air to water and a front mount heat exchanger , the boost charge temps are maxed out at around 6 degrees C above ambient temps .with the air to air it routinely ran 20 C above ambient .so a 14 degrees C improvement .i dont like the extra weight or the plumbing involved , but on my car i felt it needed the extra cooling .
Turbo is smaller than my hx35..... exhaust side is well less than half the size of the vgt and blower side is 48lb/m, while yours is 62lb/m.
You wont be able to go much higher and make significant power gains. That turbo is a "bolt on" upgrade that the GN guys fiddle with around here and we have freaked some of those cars out with some crazy drag setups running e85 and 28+psi to hardly make 450whp / 125mph traps. a "normal" GN with that turbo would trap like 120ish on 17psi.
When I sent the car up there, I had an older T62 that went with it. When Dave called in to Turbonetics to get info on the turbo I had, he talked it over with them. I didn't tell Dave this, and it's not that I didn't trust him, but I called them to confirm what he told me, and called Turbochargers.com here locally as well. I wasn't thrilled about having to spend over $1k on another turbo when I could have mine rebuilt for less than $500, and wasn't too sure about stepping down in power levels. I found out that while the T62 was a T4 and would have made more power for sure, it wouldn't have been as responsive. Basically it would have been more for the track and for going hard. I wanted a combination of quick and fast, and was willing to sacrifice a little in each category to have a good balance. Given where we are, I think I made the right choice.
I will say that I do think we could go up to 18 psi, and hit close 500 WHP. Think about it, you're saying GN guys pushing 28 PSI are barely making 450 WHP, which we happen to be making at 16 psi. I think we're doing ok. You have to remember, if this car sees the track it probably won't happen more than once or twice. Don't worry man, you're 1/4 time was never in jeopardy from me, not even in my mind. Driving around here on the streets with just under 500 ft / lb of tq is going to be a challenge, so I'm going to leave it at a lower psi for normal driving anyway.
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Originally posted by bmwguru:
I knew if I mentioned the turbo size initially we would take a lot of heat for it and I didn't want that to dissuade Michael. I knew this setup would be good for 400whp which was our goal, but the end result really wasn't about the numbers. The location of the turbo also limited the size we were able to work with around the F40. The plus side is that the power comes on like a supercharged car.
The camshaft is a little overkill, but the turbo smooths it out. My only regret is not doing stage 3 heads. I imagine that the better flow would help, but what's done is done. I feel the car is right where we planned for it to be.
Dave
Like I said, let me start putting aside some change here and there, and maybe next year I'll make a trip up there. We can slap on the stage 3 heads, put in a better fuel pump, and go to a strip club errr I mean dyno. I don't need a ton more power but anything I can do to make this flow better and be more efficient is still on the table for sure. We'll talk about the meth more in the coming weeks.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-20-2013).]
great job , runs really well and a good looking install .the HP tuners is a really good investment .it is nice to change the tune a little at a time without paying every time .my setup was 650.00 , i dont know what they are worth now .the water meth setup i use is a Snow progresive unit and it uses a Shur-flo diaphram pump .these pumps are designed to handle all kinds of chemicals so spraying watermeth does not affect them at all .i even used a shur-flo pump as an oil scavenger pump to send the hot oil from the turbo back to the crankcase .ran it for 4 years and it still works great .i use my windshield washer bottle to feed the watermeth .i just give the windshield a quick squirt to make sure i am not out .the water meth only comes on at about 6 PSI and increases spray as the boost increases .so during normal driving it does not come on at all .i used to have an air to air in the same location as the build car and my charge temps would go into the red at boost .it helped over not having an intercooler , but not enough .with air to water and a front mount heat exchanger , the boost charge temps are maxed out at around 6 degrees C above ambient temps .with the air to air it routinely ran 20 C above ambient .so a 14 degrees C improvement .i dont like the extra weight or the plumbing involved , but on my car i felt it needed the extra cooling .
Thanks for the post. It's nice to see actual experience on this, and I'll have to keep an eye on things to make sure everything stays cool enough.
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Originally posted by AkursedX:
It's nice to see the details and results on this build. Good work!
I will say that I do think we could go up to 18 psi, and hit close 500 WHP. Think about it, you're saying GN guys pushing 28 PSI are barely making 450 WHP, which we happen to be making at 16 psi. I think we're doing ok
That was far from the point... you have a baby transmission that puts ALOT more power to the ground than anything else for 1, and the point of the whole statement that more boost is not going to get you more power.
That was far from the point... you have a baby transmission that puts ALOT more power to the ground than anything else for 1, and the point of the whole statement that more boost is not going to get you more power.
I understood you Scott. I'm just not convinced that we're completely maxed out yet. If Dave is right about what percentage loss we have through the drivetrain, then I'm making over 550 at the crank. You said we'd only be making SC power levels with this build, which I think I'm safe in saying we're outside of normal SC levels. I'm not looking to make another 100 WHP or anything so no need to argue about it. As far as the transmission goes, it seems to have held up for Troy. What would you say would be a good benchmark for knowing whether it will hold or not with my setup?
I understood you Scott. I'm just not convinced that we're completely maxed out yet. If Dave is right about what percentage loss we have through the drivetrain, then I'm making over 550 at the crank. You said we'd only be making SC power levels with this build, which I think I'm safe in saying we're outside of normal SC levels. I'm not looking to make another 100 WHP or anything so no need to argue about it. As far as the transmission goes, it seems to have held up for Troy. What would you say would be a good benchmark for knowing whether it will hold or not with my setup?
supercharged stuff is around 380-400 through a 195lb automatic transmission. I am still on track with my original suggestion.
supercharged stuff is around 380-400 through a 195lb automatic transmission. I am still on track with my original suggestion.
For the record, supercharged setups start around 260whp. I dyno'ed my 3800s/c with a 3.4" pulley and 5 speed to get that number. Add rockers and a N* TB and I got 280whp. Add a cam, headers, and intercooler and get 330whp. Add heads and get 365whp. Add a bigger cam, and meth and you'll get 400whp. These numbers came from swaps I have built. the numbers are rounded off so I didn't have to go look up the exact numbers.
From the last build thread you stated this:
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Originally posted by darkhorizon: You did take that out of context, because I clearly said 500whp+, and at 7psi you will be lucky to break 240.
We made 334whp on 8.5psi (wastegate only)
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Originally posted by darkhorizon: Above average appearance, below average performance!
We were not aiming for 600whp....Our goal was 400whp and a fun daily driver. This is still higher whp than 90% of the Fieros out there. I'm satisfied with our work and I know Michael will be more than happy.
We were not aiming for 600whp....Our goal was 400whp and a fun daily driver. This is still higher whp than 90% of the Fieros out there. I'm satisfied with our work and I know Michael will be more than happy.
And this is all that matters in the end....This Fiero will be a nice addition to the big Tx Fiero events every year and will get many many looks at the shows. I cant wait to see it myself up close..
Originally posted by darkhorizon: supercharged stuff is around 380-400 through a 195lb automatic transmission. I am still on track with my original suggestion.
I appreciate the healthy debate, let's try to keep it that way. I do however feel the need to let an expert disagree with your expert opinion, so I'm copying and pasting this from the other thread.
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Originally posted by darkhorizon: the average "i did everything I could" supercharged setup makes 310-340whp. 400whp has been done less than a handful of times by even less than a handful of people.
Try to be happy for me Scott, this may not have gone perfectly, but if you go back and read the other threads, Dave hit pretty much every goal he said he would with my car. I'm not bitter, I want you and Justin to throw out ideas and suggestions. Just keep your judgments to yourself please, as that's how it started in the last thread.
And I was being serious, what benchmark do you think will prove whether the F40 will handle the power or not? I'd be curious to know this to have a goal.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-21-2013).]
Any issues with heat soak or overheating? Did you have to compensate in any way?
The only additional 'compensation' that my ic had over yours is that there were two fans on top of the ic and there was an air-dam at the back of the ic to help divert air up into it. Heat-soak was never an issue due to the low location. I have felt a noticeable difference in the ic-piping on either side of the ic after a hard run and there was a noticable difference, so it was doing something. That ic setup has been good enough to trap over 127mph on pump-gas (As PBJ has done) so I wouldn't be concerned about it.
Well, I made my reservations. I fly up on the 8th to look the car over, make arrangements to get it back to Houston, then fly back on the 10th. Once that's all done, I'm going to have the interior project started. I'll update once I'm up there, but if we're all nice maybe Dave will throw up some pictures or video.
Well, I made my reservations. I fly up on the 8th to look the car over, make arrangements to get it back to Houston, then fly back on the 10th. Once that's all done, I'm going to have the interior project started. I'll update once I'm up there, but if we're all nice maybe Dave will throw up some pictures or video.
Before u start a new project on the car just drive and enjoy the car for a little while. It has been how many years since u have driven the car? Just enjoy it some before it goes back down..
Before u start a new project on the car just drive and enjoy the car for a little while. It has been how many years since u have driven the car? Just enjoy it some before it goes back down..
Oh I plan to drive the hell out of it. The cool thing is this will be happening at my place with a professional doing the work. I already explained to him that he will be doing a piece at a time and will not be taking the car out of commission for an undue amount of time. Hopefully I'll have everything sorted and completed this spring, especially since jscott is getting the harness sorted.
but if we're all nice maybe Dave will throw up some pictures or video.
It's not the easiest car to drive in the current weather with DOT competition tires on all four corners
Actually, we won't drive Michael's car on the salty roads...the snow was just from the car sitting outside the garage during the day, so it is just pure snow. We didn't taint it too bad lol Dave
No, I covered car in cocaine because when Michael picks up the car I'll have 30 strippers here plus Motley Crue will be playing a few sets to kick the weekend off......lol.
[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 01-29-2013).]
No, I covered car in cocaine because when Michael picks up the car I'll have 30 strippers here plus Motley Crue will be playing a few sets to kick the weekend off......lol.
LOL hey the tool holding the mic doesn't do it for me. I'd MUCH rather see the car in there with the girls. You know, because I'm not allowed to interested in being in there with them since I'm married.
Only a few more days until I'm Northbound. Anyone want to see anything in particular? I'll be taking my digital SLR and video camera to get some shots while I'm up there. I'm going to be staying with a friend of the family, but if all goes well I'll be driving the car back and forth while there.
