I decided to document the next phase of my 1987...er 1988 GT.
The car is my orange and black 1987 GT. It had a V8 with four carburetors that I had to hack up the frame to fit and I was originally planning on back-halving the car, but instead I purchased a 1988 Formula that had a clean rust free frame to move the body over to.
The first step was sell off the drivetrain and strip and sell off the parts not needed from both cars. Then Joey prepped and used POR15 to cover every inch of the 1988 chassis. I removed every nut and bolt and every part was individually coated. Both the interior and exterior metal was done.
The interior was insulated with Dynamat....roof, floor and behind the dash and rear firewall. The trunk was done with high temp thick insulation after we cut and resealed it.
Every small part was coated with POR15. Then new brake lines, brakes, bearings, bushings....basically everything that was a wearable part was replaced.
Then the body was washed and I took a claybar to it prior to removal.
Then I moved the body over one weekend. That was scary due to the $12,000 paint job...I was terrified to chip it. Joey and our oldest daughter helped.
Now that the body has been moved over, it is time to start fitting the new powerplant. My specifications for it are:
Must be a DOHC type of engine. Just say no to pushrods! lol. Must sound great (similiar to the VR6) Must be modern and use Variable camshaft timing Must be a factory turbo engine Must not use a timing belt Must be tuned with resources that I have access to Must be a 6 speed. Must be able to make 400whp Must be reliable and be able to travel across the country and get decent gas mileage
So I narrowed it down to a few different options....and here is what I decided to use.
2007 Saab 9-3 Aero 2.8 turbo with F40 six speed. The engine parts are still available as Caddy uses a variant of this engine in one of their 2010 models.
From what I understand, this will be the first GM high Feature swap.
So we traveled to Connecticut to pick up a freshly crashed drop out swap.
The next step was to tear it down and add my personal touches.
I powdercoated the valve covers with chrome base, then coats of the orange, then coats of clear. They match the exterior paint perfectly. The intake was powdercoated with wrinkle black.
In the meantime, we are porting the intake runners and the turbo is getting modified to fit a 19t compressor wheel (original size is 15t). I decided to use the stock turbocharger due to it being a twin scroll design and with larger injectors, my power goals will be met.
There is no timeframe on this build and I may take a month or two away from it because that is my choice. I will update as more progress is made.
The only trouble I have run into so far is the F40 for the Saab is completely different than the G6. The mounting points are nothing alike. My original plan to use mounts I made for the G6 setup is back to the drawing board. I'll redesign them for the Saab.
Finally! Guru I have been waiting to see when someone would take on a high feature engine swap. Did you chose the Saab turbo 2.8 since the six speed is already part of the package? I thought these 6 speed transmissions were all wheel drive only on the Saab. I would love a high feature engine in my Mera. The new 323 hp 3.6 DI engine moves a 4000 pound Camaro around very well. i can imagine what your engine willl feel like in a 1000 lb lighter Fiero.
I did choose it for the F40. My second choice was a Audi TT 24v VR6 and then add a turbo, but I already have a 12v VR6 Fiero in my garage that I can drive, so I wanted something a bit different. I figure with using the engine and transmission from the same car, I won't have the clutch spacing issues that I encountered with the 3800/F40 swaps I did. I have the master plan laid out for the car and I really think this will be a nice balance once completed. I already have the suede material for the headliner and a bunch of other parts set aside for this build.
Is this engine DI, or port FI? Is it the same basic engine (as I've heard) as the HF 3.6? What about the PCM?
Watching...
It is port injected. The DI engines are all later years...and I couldn't find an application with the F40...only AWD and RWD. I really wanted a DI engine for the benefits, but from my experience with BMW's, I'm not sure if it is really worth the cons. This is in the same family as the 3.6. I wanted to use an engine that was already assembled with the F40 so I wouldn't have to mess with a custom flywheel. The cost of this swap is much higher than most.....check out the prices for the saab engine alone on www.car-part.com I got a deal for everything uncut with intercooler, harness, ecu, trans, axles, engine etc....with under 50,000 miles on it. As of today, I'm using the stock ecu and I've been in contact with jzwtuning about my options for it. I have looked into the Motec M600 as a backup if the stock ecu doesn't work out. Dave
[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 02-09-2013).]
Originally posted by bmwguru: It is port injected. The DI engines are all later years...and I couldn't find an application with the F40... Dave
The only SIDI engine with an F40 mated to it is the Ecotec, and I think then only in the turbo Buick. Only place you're going to find an F40 mated to a HF V6 is in the Saab 9-3 2.8t. All the other cars (at least in USDM), only come with the 6 speed auto for FWD HF V6 engines.
Why in gods name would you put a motec in a v6 fiero? I have FAR less into my drag car than you would have into a m600.
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I've been in contact with jzwtuning
And what else do they have to say except "buy HPT from us for $50 more than anywhere else"? I highly doubt they have any understanding of how to remove a BCM from the sourcecode... but I have been wrong before.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-09-2013).]
Why in gods name would you put a motec in a v6 fiero? I have FAR less into my drag car than you would have into a m600.
And what else do they have to say except "buy HPT from us for $50 more than anywhere else"? I highly doubt they have any understanding of how to remove a BCM from the sourcecode... but I have been wrong before.
I figured this deserved an answer. During my research for this swap, I planned on using HP Tuners for the tune. That was one of the things that swayed me towards the High Feature swap. Otherwise, I probably would have gone with another German swap. As it turns out HP Tuners is very limited as to what can be tuned on this setup. I was in contact with John from JZW, and he and I went back and forth with my emails and he convinced me that Winols is a much better system to use to tune that system. Here is a quote from one of the emails.
"Yes, there are about 12 airmass maps and the main pressure limiting maps and torque limiting maps are not in hp tuners, not even the main boost lininerization map is in hp tuners. Hp tuners is fine for the LNF stuff, but not for the Saab ecu."
The other choice of Motec came from the fact that I may have went with a standalone due to the VSS configuration. There is no VSS in the transmission. It is read from the wheel speed sensors through the ABS module. I figured I could add an ABS ring and sensor and set it up for the Motec. From my research, Motec is one of very few standalones that allow the use of the fly by wire throttle and variable camshafts. I didn't spend the money on this setup to take a step down by locking the cams. I'm not looking to run 10 seconds in the 1/4 mile with this setup. The car won't be getting a rollcage or the needed safety equipment for that. I'm looking for something that is similar to what I work on everyday.
As for removing the systems from the code. That is not that big of a deal. I had to do that on the VR6 and TDI Fieros. The VR6 needed to see the instrument cluster to initiate any diagnosis and utilize the K line. Bypassing that really wasn't very hard and programming out the ABS was simple. It was more in the wiring than the actual ecu code. I had to loop the CAN BUS lines.
I think the hard part here is going to be to figure out how to mount the Saab engine. There is no usable mounting location for the Fiero cradle and Saab engine. I'm sure that we will figure something out.
Have you looked int MegaSquirt III as an alternative to Motec?
Motec is very nice, powerfull and capable of many things, even beyond engine managment alone, but comes with a very high price. MSIII is much improved on the earlier versions, and allows for expansion to adapt to mdorn technology advances, like COP, VVT, AFM/DOD etc.
Have you looked int MegaSquirt III as an alternative to Motec?
Motec is very nice, powerfull and capable of many things, even beyond engine managment alone, but comes with a very high price. MSIII is much improved on the earlier versions, and allows for expansion to adapt to mdorn technology advances, like COP, VVT, AFM/DOD etc.
I'm kinda prejudiced against Megasquirt. I did look into them though and I don't think I'd be able to use the fly by wire. I do plan to go with the stock Bosch ecu at first and see if I can make that work. That will open up the swap possibilities in the future. The reason I have a slight grudge with Megasquirt is I had a friend in the past with that system on his car and it was the most unreliable POS I ever encountered. He would break down at the worst possible times because of it. Once he flashed his car prior to a run at the track and it fried his ecu. I haven't been near Megasquirt since, but I assume they got better or they wouldn't be in business. The coil on plug, variable camshaft and fly by wire I expect to keep.
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Originally posted by solotwo:
What size are your wheels?
18x8
[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 02-10-2013).]
I've always liked this car, the paint is awesome. I can't wait to see what it does! looking at the pic of the motor with the intake off makes me think someone should build and ITB setup for it....
------------------ I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.
My new car PO has 18x9's in the rear and I noticed when I took them off and put winter tires on that they had worn through the wheel wells in several spots. I am thinking 9" is to wide.
What # rear springs are you using on your coil overs? On my car PO used 350#. Rides like a GMC Medium Duty truck in the rear.
Thanks, Steve W. NE Grand Rapids, MI 88 Coupe fender/bender - ins. co totaled - now at Wellers Auto Parts 87 GT 3800SC
I've always liked this car, the paint is awesome. I can't wait to see what it does!
Thanks!
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Originally posted by solotwo:
They fit with out issues?
My new car PO has 18x9's in the rear and I noticed when I took them off and put winter tires on that they had worn through the wheel wells in several spots. I am thinking 9" is to wide.
What # rear springs are you using on your coil overs? On my car PO used 350#. Rides like a GMC Medium Duty truck in the rear.
Thanks, Steve W. NE Grand Rapids, MI 88 Coupe fender/bender - ins. co totaled - now at Wellers Auto Parts 87 GT 3800SC
They don't rub at all. I am using 300# springs, but that was with the V8. I have the same setup on the VR6 Fiero with 275# springs. I'm not sure where I'll go with the spring rate...I guess I will have to drive it first. I was running a 245/40R18 tire, but I will be stepping it up to a 265/35R18 when the car is completed. I've been driving on the Falken AZENIS RT615-K tires all summer and I really really like the way they grip in the wet and dry.
Spec stage 3+ clutch....this is what is common to use according to the Saab guys.
More drivetrain stuff....
I replaced the alternator because the bearing was a little noisy and the clutch in the pulley didn't feel right. We are polishing the intake runners still and I started polishing the exhaust manifolds. They are stainless steel. I plan to finish polishing them and then heat them to give them that "blue" tint. I'm still looking into the method for this...(oil or no oil)
I used the Google and found your thread. I am using the stock ecu. The Motec is a last resort if I can't get the stock ecu to do what I need it to do. I feel pretty confident that I should be able to use it.
Wow.. I love your car! and I love how you don't follow the common swaps but think outside the box and make anything fit in the Fiero. You got a + in my book!
Wow.. I love your car! and I love how you don't follow the common swaps but think outside the box and make anything fit in the Fiero. You got a + in my book!
The only major issue you would have with a megasquirt is running a drive by wire throttle body... which is not going to matter if you dont have traction control anyway... So swapping to a cable throttle body will be easier, cheaper, and require less wiring. MS can run variable timing and coil on plug without any issues.
If you dont like MS, you could do the same with an AEM or a haltec... I know the middle road haltec has alot of different variable cam support. Both of them would be 1/8 the cost of motec, and you would be able to tune/install one yourself (the motec has a big learning curve if you are not very handy with c code.)
already there.
