I think there is a market for a moderately priced large vented rotor brake upgrade for the 84-87, but want to see what others think.
Like my 88 13" kit, this will be a clean sheet design, not a copy of a previous kit. It will be designed for ease of installation with the only modification being the trimming of the rear upright protrusion for rotor clearance (I will supply the needed bolts for the rear upright w/o needing drilling/tapping). The use of 88 calipers keeps the bore size the same in the front and very close to the same in the rear (depending on where you look, the bore size is 48mm or 1 7/8"=47.626mm vs. 88's being 48mm) so stock or near stock brake balance will be retained. It also eliminates the need for a master cylinder upgrade. The improvement in the braking leverage will be over 30% vs. stock due to the larger rotors + improved fade resistance + visual impact behind larger wheels. My parking brake solution will use stock 84-87 cables and retain proper bleeder function at the calipers (this could also be retrofitted to all the 12" kits using the 88 calipers previously sold w/o a parking brake solution). All caliper brackets will attach to the machined side of the uprights (front and rear) so you can be assured the caliper pads will be parallel with the rotors. The 13" rotors will require 17" wheels or larger. The rotors will weigh 17 lbs each. These rotors will add about 8 lbs per wheel in the rear and about 10 lbs per wheel in the front.
The total price of the kit is not certain yet, but here is a run down for known/estimated prices: $265....New machined hubs for the front with longer wheel studs. I might reduce the markup for brake kit purchases, or you can do yourself for less. $350....4 New 88 Brake Calipers, you could get used ones for less. No markup included. $185....4 drilled/slotted/zinc coated 13" rotors. No markup included. $60.....Shipping to the lower 48 (Canada will be much higher - its $120 to ship my 13" 88 kit to Canada, and this kit will have 4 calipers and 2 machined hubs as well). No markup included. $600...Estimated price for the caliper mounting brackets, concentric rings, mounting bolts, and parking brake hardware. This may be more or may be less depending on what it takes to get the parts made.
So for a complete kit with all new parts your looking at something in the $1450 range, but DIY people could source basic rotors, machine the hubs locally and find used 88 calipers to keep the total expense well under $1K. The other vendors selling complete front/rear 13" brake kit are priced at $2185 + shipping and $3,350 + shipping, so there is some significant potential savings in my kit vs. the others currently on the market.
I purchased an 86 GT this week solely for R&D development of this kit (and other future products). I have the rotor application determined, the parking brake solution mostly figured out, just need to make sure it fits. Then design the needed brackets front/rear and get the quotes for having them made in batches of 25 full car kits.
Once the 30th has come and gone, my primary project focus will be getting this kit finalized and to market by the end of the year... assuming there is sufficient interest.
PM sent..would help for me to read the entire post before PMing...let me know when you have the last of the pieces ready that I need to complete the kit...can't wait!
Everyone I have most of these pieces from Paul and they are top notch...he does quality work!
[This message has been edited by TXOPIE (edited 05-21-2013).]
I'm not in the market but you may want to also offer the option of the 13" rears for the 88 for those that have an 88 Cradle swap in their 84-87.
Yes, if someone wants a 13" front 84-87 and a 13" rear 88 kit, will be able to offer that as well - probably will be slightly cheaper as it will avoid the more costly 84-87 rear caliper bracket and more costly parking brake solution (assuming that as part of the swap they have already switched to 88 parking brake cables). The only concern is the different rotor application between the two 13" rotors might not have the same drilled/slotted pattern.
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Originally posted by TXOPIE: Everyone I have most of these pieces from Paul and they are top notch...he does quality work!
You have the parts for a different possible brake kit, but I do appreciate the praise! You may be interested in the parking brake solution for this 13" kit though.
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Originally posted by Big Paul: I wish I had that kind of money to shell out on my car.. Maybe after I graduate. Good luck with this. Sounds sweet!
Yeah, the 13" kit for the 84-87 is significantly more expensive than my $640 13" brake kit for the 88's. The 88's use the same simple brackets and concentric rings on all 4 wheels, so their parts are cheaper to manufacture (purchased in quantities of 100), but the 84-87 kit requires the machined front hubs, 4 calipers, and a more complicated/costly solution to the parking brake setup. If I am able to get the kit done at a lower price, I will lower the estimate price, but for now I would prefer people see the potential worse case cost and hope to give them a lower one once everything is finalized.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-22-2013).]
the one problem with using the '88 calipers is they're somewhat rare. at least on our side of the pond. Why not make the kit for corvette calipers (either the heavy duty C4 or the standard C5/6 calipers)? Might have been done already, I don't know, but at least around here it's easier to source corvette calipers than fiero calipers. I also think the master cylinders on many corvettes are 1" diameter, just like the fiero, so that shouldn't be an issue. The remaining problem would be the emergency brake... And the balance... I guess we can't expect people to install adjustable prop-valves and adjust their setup to the proper balance?
the one problem with using the '88 calipers is they're somewhat rare. at least on our side of the pond. Why not make the kit for corvette calipers (either the heavy duty C4 or the standard C5/6 calipers)? Might have been done already, I don't know, but at least around here it's easier to source corvette calipers than fiero calipers. I also think the master cylinders on many corvettes are 1" diameter, just like the fiero, so that shouldn't be an issue. The remaining problem would be the emergency brake... And the balance... I guess we can't expect people to install adjustable prop-valves and adjust their setup to the proper balance?
In the states, the 88 calipers are still quite plentiful and easy to get (calipers online or through ebay). If I can find a more common caliper with a 48mm piston bore or equivalent dual piston bore area that is an OEM caliper, then I might consider using it. From a product liability standpoint, keeping the brake bias as close as possible to the factory stock level, is the safest path. GM spent countless hours and $$$ to come up with that setting as the best overall compromise for the specific vehicle, so that is what I stick with when I design brake system upgrades.
As for the suggested parts. The HD C4 or C5 calipers, require a thicker/heavier rotor which will add more rotor weight (2.5 to 5 lbs more per rotor). The light duty C4 calipers could be used with my rotor choice, but there are bias issues doing so.
I would be 100% interested in a DIY "kit" couple hundred bucks for the caliper brackets, and let me figure out the rest. although a all inclusive "kit" does have it's advantages I think you would sell more if you offered it all À la carte. It's just my opinion, but I like to DIY
------------------ 1986 SE 3800SC/4t65eHD (12.871@104.96) 1985 GT 3800SC (swap in progress)
I would be 100% interested in a DIY "kit" couple hundred bucks for the caliper brackets, and let me figure out the rest. although a all inclusive "kit" does have it's advantages I think you would sell more if you offered it all À la carte. It's just my opinion, but I like to DIY
There will be the option to purchase just the hardware (brackets, rings, bolts, parking brake hardware). However, the hardware only kit for my 13" 88 kit hasn't been very popular at all, most buy the whole kit so they just have to bolt it together.
My 87GT needs brakes horribly and I'm very much on the fence about the route I want to go in replacing/upgrading. All that to say, yes I am possibly interested.
Interested enough to send cash NOW! I've watched your build thread and some of your manufacturing techniques and would buy this kit without reservation. I'd only need the brackets and rotors.
Yep, I did, however the kit I bought does not have the e-brake solution. I'd rather have the bigger brakes + an e-brake. I think I can sell the 12" kit for a great price and recoup some of the costs of the 13" kit. When you fly in take a look out of the window and take notice on how much construction is happening at the Boeing campus - we are a whole lot bigger than this time a year or two ago - and still growing.
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Originally posted by infinitewill:
TC,
I thought you just upgraded to 12" rotors less than a year ago?
BTW, I will be in Charleston on Wed to teach an Adobe CS class but it will be a quick in and out
Dr. W.
[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 05-26-2013).]
The interest in this new kit seems rather dismal, but hopefully it is just because people are skeptical of the parking brake solution. Several people before have tried to solve it and came up short, so I can understand some skepticism. So in an effort to spur some more legitimate interest in this kit, I am forging ahead and will create the working parking brake first to prove the concept, then if there still isn't sufficient interest, I will like abort the development of the kit and just sell a few of the parking brake setups to those already running the C4 12" kit with 88 calipers.
I pulled the parts car into the garage and removed the rear wheel, rear caliper, dust shield, trimmed the upright and then compared the 84-87 caliper to the 88. Both of these calipers go on the same side of the 84-87 with the bleeder screw pointing up. As you can see the parking brake assemblies are opposite of each other:
The stock 84-87 parking brake cable setup runs under the axle, and I am keeping that routing so I can retain the stock parking brake cables to keep kit cost minimized. Running it over the axle will require new/longer parking brake cables and the area is tight between the axle and the bottom of the strut.
Here is a closeup of the 88 rear caliper that needs to go on the DS of the 84-87 Fiero. In this configuration, the parking brake hardware would be on the top side when mounted with the bleeder screw up:
I need it on the bottom side, so lets remove both parking brake brackets and mount them to the other side:
To make these flipped brackets work, they have to change uses. The original cable sleeve stop, now becomes the barrel end holder (will need a keeper to hold the cable or I will just make a new bracket). The lever arm will now be the stop for the cable sleeve and to activate the parking brake, the barrel end will stay stationary and the cable sleeve will pull the parking brake lever forward. I will have to make a new lever bracket for sure that will have a pivoting portion for the cable sleeve. Here is a picture with the parking brake level pulled forward (parking brake engaged):
Like I said, I need to make a new lever assembly, but reversing which end of the cable moves to activate the parking brake solves the parking brake issue.
Here is a picture with the caliper on the 13" rotor and the parking brake cable visible.
As you can see the end of the cable is just about right where it needs to be for the stationary bracket to be its holder, but the sleeve portion of the cable end is a short (the parking brake lever is pulled to activate the brake in this picture). There is plenty of excess cable travel so I can incorporate a cable sleeve spacer at the parking brake lever arm similar to the one I use on my 88 13" kits, but it will probably be a little longer. Something like these:
Here is the other end of the DS parking brake cable. As you can see there is plenty of exposed cable to make room for the needed sleeve spacer and what you can't see is the excess threaded length past the adjuster nut as well:
The same cable sleeve spacer can be done on the PS too as there is plenty of exposed cable:
The picture above also shows the stock cable connector. To install the PS sleeve spacer a longer cable connector will be needed, similar to the ones I make for my 13" brake kit, but probably a little longer. Something like these:
The next step is to make a caliper bracket out of 16 ga so the caliper will hold itself in position, then start working on the prototypes of the new parking brake brackets.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-04-2013).]
I am all in - even if it comes to pass that you offer only the e-brake kit. I'd love to have even bigger brakes, but it dos seem that interest is limited at best - which is sort of surprising.
Not much interest????? That's why the other guys are not selling them. When new brakes cost more than most of us pay for the entire car, that tells the story. There are some very nice Fieros to be had in the $2200 to $3350 range. Someone who pays that much for an entire car isn't going to fork over several thousand more for better brakes. I like the idea of better brakes but there is a limit as to their value on a low value automobile. Don't mean top be blunt about it but that's the way it is on a Fiero. We are mostly a low budget group. If you can make a kit for $1000 it will probably sell.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-05-2013).]
... So for a complete kit with all new parts your looking at something in the $1450 range, but DIY people could source basic rotors, machine the hubs locally and find used 88 calipers to keep the total expense well under $1K. Let me know your thoughts.
Dennis, I think for a complete kit the price is very reasonable. Read the rest of his post where he outlines how you can save on cost by gathering some of th eparts youself.
I am also reminded of a quote - i don't know who said it but it rings true.
"~The Bitterness of low quality remains long after the Sweet taste of low price is gone~"
[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 07-06-2013).]
I am well aware of the overall cost reducing potential sales... but there is just so much stuff that has to be replaced when dealing with brake upgrades for the 84-87's vs. the 88's. I probably did "myself' a disservice by itemizing everything that is needed with the estimated total costs. This could easily scare many away via sticker shock, but I would rather by customers know up front what they will be spending vs. selling just the brackets and letting them figure out the total cost on their own.
Knowing that this kit will be expensive to most people, I am looking for options to make it more appealing and to expand the potential market. If I add 1 part to the rear kit, I can use the same 13" rotors as my 88 kit uses. If this works then I can offer an option for providing a matched 13" kit for the 84-87 cars with 88 rear cradles. Also, I am kicking around the idea of designing the caliper brackets with dual patterns so they can be used for the 12" or 13" rotor upgrades. That way they can buy the kit and run 12" rotors (lower rotor cost and smaller wheel requirements) for a while before shelling out the $$$ for the larger wheels needed on the 13" kit. Then when the time comes, they don't have the hassle of selling off the used 12" kit and buying the 13" one... they keep the same kit.
Come tax time (7 months from now) bigger brakes for my choptop is #1 on the list. I keep looking at this and although its a bit pricey the safety factor of not having a hacked together system has its merits. I may just have to pop on this then.
sounds interesting, while i don't need the full kit (sorry i already got a 12" kit), i am be interested in the parking brake solution. keep up the good work. al
Here is a 16ga template for the rear caliper bracket (it can be just a flat piece of steel, I am hoping that 5/16" will fit). Also, note the bolts are LS4 flywheel bolts. They are 11x1.5 and are a direct fit to the rear upright - no need to drill/tap for some other bolt. I also traced the relative shape of my 88 13" bracket so there still needs to be some shaping to clear the caliper piston.
Here is the template bracket installed with the caliper. The rear bracket will be thicker and eliminate the need for the nut/spacers at the upright and shift the sliders inboard on the calipers so they will have proper range of motion. All in all, looks like the template is pretty close, so I will make another template from 1/4".
These rotors are the same 13" rotors from my 88 kit. The lower control arm has built in stops to keep the rear wheels from turning to much in the event the rear tierod breaks. In this picture, the suspension is loaded, but the car is stock ride height. If it was lowered, the tangs would continue inward and make contact with the rotor. They will need some clearance modification.
Here is a pic with the rotor and caliper installed (yes, I know the rotor is backwards):
Then it was time to satisfy a curiosity I have had for quite some time. A couple years back when I was looking into a solid rotor upgrade for the 84-87, I noticed that the mounting flange on the 84-87 front upright was very, very close to the same bolt pattern as the 88 caliper, but that it was located about 1/2" closer to the axle centerline than the 88's were. The 1/2" dimension was the interesting part, as it would suggest that the brackets I use for the 88 13" kit might work for the 84-87 12" kit. I threw away the 84-87 upright before getting a chance to check it, so it has been a curiosity for some time.
Well it does indeed fit! Here is one of my 88 brackets installed on an 84-87 with the C4 front rotor and 88 caliper (rear).
Most 84-87 front brake kits using 11 1/4" and larger rotors bolt the caliper bracket to the non-machined side of the upright. Sometimes with works OK other times it causes non-parallel issues between the caliper pads and rotors. For consistency you must use the machined side (inboard side) of the upright, and that is what I have done here.
People familiar with 88 calipers should be able to pick off the simple trick I used to keep my bracket on the machined side of the upright...
I have some 1/4" wall steel tube coming to turn the needed spacers (the mockup nuts are just close), as well as a new set of 88 brake pads, and I want to get an 88 front caliper as well so I can check clearances, room for wear and any interference to the shock. If everything pans out, then I could supply these front brackets for the C4 12" set (since I already have plenty of them in stock) and then make new ones that are about 1/2" larger for the 13" rotors.
I am interested in your brake kit. I'm tired of dealing with caliper problems. Latest thing is leakers; I've had a few that start leaking from the plastic plug in the piston. The last one failed at less than 5000 miles! I've checked this thread some time ago, but I have to say that the possibility of using 12 inch rotors with dual pattern brackets is what really has made it appealing to me. Are you still considering the dual patterns?
I've checked this thread some time ago, but I have to say that the possibility of using 12 inch rotors with dual pattern brackets is what really has made it appealing to me. Are you still considering the dual patterns?
I did some testing of dual pattern brackets with my 88 kit, the problem is that unless I clock the two patterns differently, there really isn't much material between the two holes (especialy since one set is countersunk). The mock up brackets I am using in the front are the prototype 88 dual pattern ones.
The dual pattern function is a possibility on the 88's because there is room at the upright to slide the bracket closer to the center for the 12" pattern. There isn't room to do this on the caliper side, so it must happen at the upright. This is where dual patterns becomes a no-go for the 84-87 rear. The rear upright does not have sufficient room for the bracket to slide towards the center at all. So the rear bracket will have to be different between the 12" version and 13" version. I haven't looked too closely at the front yet, but suspect there is room for a dual pattern bracket, but it may require clocking the caliper up (which may be needed anyway for caliper to shock clearance).
Now what I could do for the 84-87 rear brackets is add the set of holes that would allow them to also be bolted to the 88 rear uprights using the same rotors. That way if you buy the kit and then swap to an 88 rear cradle, the same brackets will work and all you would need are the two 88 specific parking brake cable parts.
I'm kinda / somewhat interested but not interested in using the '88 stock calipers, my preference would be Camaro calipers, many other 84-87 owners already have these LeBaron upgrade, much bigger pads, etc. D52 style,
The '88 pads are tiny
[This message has been edited by rourke_87_T-Top (edited 07-17-2013).]
The reason for the 88 calipers is they have the same piston diameter as the 84-87 and avoid the hassle/expense of purching more parts (master cylinder and brake bias adjuster).
The surface area of the pad has zero impact on overall braking force, the only reason for the larger surface area is to improve wear life of the pad.
I really like your approach Using the 88 calipers to keep factory bias Using the machined side for mounting
I had brackets made that also rotated te caliper up on te front to provide increased clearance when turning to lock, you may consider this.
I am interested in your solution for the parking brake for my setup using C4 rotors.
Costs are very good. Anyone needing to replace parts should understand. Wanting to improve at such reasonable prices makes the decision easier. The replacement parts should last the lifetime of the car, and keep the performance very high.
Thanks for continuing to push new ideas for this community.
