I spoke with my contact at the Heritage Center today. the 1990 is still in inventory and has not been crushed. don't know where the info came from that it was crushed!
Historian Indy owner #305
[This message has been edited by paced84 (edited 06-24-2013).]
I spoke with my contact at the Heritage Center today. the 1990 is still in inventory and has not been crushed. don't know where the info came from that it was crushed!
Historian Indy owner #305
I am sure it was a random posting on the web some place.
I think GM has thinned most of the older cars and I do not expect much more selling of these models. Now the newer ones may show up at some point if deemed not important enough to keep.
I really would like to know the status of the Team TA GMC camper. It was set to be restored but then the Chapter 11 came and Pontiac went and I have lost track of it as have my GM contacts.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-24-2013).]
I spoke with my contact at the Heritage Center today. the 1990 is still in inventory and has not been crushed. don't know where the info came from that it was crushed!
Historian Indy owner #305
Hey Ron, can you talk to your contact tomorrow and see how much that car will cost me?
What is/was the Team TA GMC camper? Some sort of customized GMC motorhome used by Pontiac?
It was one of those GMC six wheel campers painted up in Pontiac and Trans Am like trim that traveled around the country with a group of Trans Ams and did driving clinics and promotions at events.
It is seen in the background of the 1990 coupes that was taken years ago.. There was a move to restore it but I have lost track of it nor have I seen it restored. It was in pretty good shape on the outside but unsure of the drive train and interior.
I don't have time right now but if you google it there may be some photos out there. It was used a lot in the late 70's.
I have a picture of my car and the body panels at the Pontiac Motor Sports camper that Bob Birchmiere used to drive. I wonder if that is the same one. When I get home tonight I will post a pic of it. Rick B
I have a picture of my car and the body panels at the Pontiac Motor Sports camper that Bob Birchmiere used to drive. I wonder if that is the same one. When I get home tonight I will post a pic of it. Rick B
Not the same as the Team TA camper was still in the Trans Am markings back 8 years ago.
I saw the 1990 at the 25th Anniversary event in Detroit. I agree with Fastback's comments - it was most disappointing; it did look like a sawed off Firebird and totally without the spirited look of any of our previous Fieros. Glad they did not crush it, but my opinion is that they would have sold very few if ever it went into production.
Back in the day we thought this things was amazing as we had no Old Firebird to compare it too. You have to keep in mind that the styling was carried over to the 4th gen F body and that the Fiero came first. Today it may look like a old Firebird but back in the day it looked like a exotic car.
The Fiero even if it were not killed was going to sell in less numbers as there is no way a 2 seat car could have sustained the pace the Fiero had in the early years. In fact it hurt it more then helped it. The two seat market is a limited market and if you flood it for several years the demand will dry up. This is why most two seat cars seldom last long outside the Vette and Miata.
Keep in mind the Miata has only averaged like 14,000 units yearly in North America. Mazda like to keep the sales limited to keep demand up. But even then they are struggling to keep it going. They are going to share a platform with Alfa now to save cost. It is easy to build a $250,000 low volume sports car but it is very difficult to build and sell a cheap low volume sports car. Even the big names like RX7 and MR2 peaked and dies an early death.
If it were easy to sell a low volume cheap sports car every company would have one.
Here is the shot in case it was the old camper PMS used. My car is tot he left. Rick B
It looked similar to this. I would have to see the other photo again but I thought it had the TA name on it yet. It could be the same of they may have had more than one too. They could have taken two or three teams on the road to cover the country.
But that is pretty much how it looked accept for the wording.
They may have changed out the sticker on it which would have been simple. But I am betting they had plenty of them running around. I had a feeling it was the same style.
Also maybe it said Trans Am on the one side and it looks like it says Pontiac Sporting Events on my picture for the other side. It may be the same camper. Rick B
[This message has been edited by SuperchargedV6 (edited 06-26-2013).]
Here is a shot of the Trans Am I would like to know where it went. On the left is my car and on the right is the Car Craft car. All three Pontiac, Pontiac Motor Sports cars. Rick B
I saw the 1990 at the 25th Anniversary event in Detroit. I agree with Fastback's comments - it was most disappointing; it did look like a sawed off Firebird and totally without the spirited look of any of our previous Fieros. Glad they did not crush it, but my opinion is that they would have sold very few if ever it went into production.
Uhg, again it did not look like a 4th gen firebird the 4th gen firebird looked like it. I honestly don't understand why people keep saying that. The 4th gen firebird didn't come into production until 5 years after the fiero went out of production. The 90 prototype, if it had went into production, would have preceded the 4th gen firebird by 3 years. Seriously, that's like saying my Dad looks like me...
Uhg, again it did not look like a 4th gen firebird the 4th gen firebird looked like it. I honestly don't understand why people keep saying that. The 4th gen firebird didn't come into production until 5 years after the fiero went out of production. The 90 prototype, if it had went into production, would have preceded the 4th gen firebird by 3 years. Seriously, that's like saying my Dad looks like me...
I think it may be difficult for the new comers as many of us saw it years before the Bird and just have it right in our minds as we know what came first. The newbies just know what they know and the first thing that comes to mind is the F body as that is all they knew till later.
I agree with you but I do not expect many to really grasp it if you has learned of the car the other way.
Do you realize my car was a copy of the 1982 Fiero Race car? Yes 1982 build Do you realize how many years ahead the car was designed? You really do not believe that the Firebird body style was only invented after the 1989/90 Fiero? Did you ever look at how much the 1984 Corvette looks like the Fiero? They always swapped out ideas from the design team. Hell many of the designs were under other cars names. I think the 1961 MonteCarlo was a Pontiac that turned into the GTO. Fieros design team probably had the 89/90 Fiero design on the books many years earlier. It is a mess once you start to see some of the neat stuff they had many years beofre they actually produced a car like the oringal designs. Rick B
The 1990 Fiero was done in and around 1985 to lock in the styling. They were already building mules at the time they killed the car.
While that was going on the 3rd gen F body was being converted to the GM 80 platform and was going to a space frame, plastic body and yes FWD. This is well documented and was the plan. In 1986-87 GM killed the GM 80 program as the engineers did not want it and the fact that Ford changed the FWD Mustang to the Probe name and retained the Fox Platform.
The GM 80 was set to be built in the same plant as the Fiero and help contribute to the Fiero demise as it left the plant well under capacity and gave Chevy just one more reason to present why the Fiero should be killed.
Now John Schinella was the man responsible for the Fiero design from inception to the 1990. John loved the car and is the reason we still have the 1990 GT yet today as he protected it. He stated publically that the Fiero died and he needed a new design for the 4th Gen F body and needed it fast. He stated the styling of the Fiero GT was too good to waste and made the call to reuse it for the 1993 F body. Note that the Fiero and GM-80 were 5-6 years before the Gen 4 came out and was more than enough time to rework the design to a RWD Front Engine platform.
The GM 80 also had roots in the GTO show car that was FWD and AWD that was only show limitedly. There are rumors the GM 80 based GTO show car is still in hiding at the tech center by some but no one has seen it since the late 90's.
The fact is the 90 GT design was recycled for the Gen 4 F body and the head of design saying so is good enough for me. I was there when he stated it and I heard it first hand.
Another thing that gets lost is that the mid engine V6 design and space frame came form GM engineering in the mid 70's as a proposal to Chevy for the new Corvette. It was rejected and shelved. When the Fiero team wanted to lower the cowl they were offered the proposal the GM tech staff had done and the Fiero team took it and used the concept.
This statement was stated Inside the Corvette by Dave McClelland the ex lead of the Corvette team. He said the Fiero's Mid Engine roots came from this proposal.
Many ideas GM uses are often ideas presented before or saved till the time is right. Many things are never thrown away.
Back in the day we thought this things was amazing as we had no Old Firebird to compare it too. You have to keep in mind that the styling was carried over to the 4th gen F body and that the Fiero came first. Today it may look like a old Firebird but back in the day it looked like a exotic car.
Yeah I remember in 1993 when the 4th gen Firebird came out I thought the styling was AMAZING!. Had that style come out in 1990 as the Fiero it would have been revolutionary. It's hard for young newbies to appreciate that, but look at some pictures of what other cars looked like in 1990 and you begin to understand.
Here is one of the GM 80 Firebirds. This was what was planned to be FWD V6 and built with the Fiero. It was canceled right before the Fiero program was stopped.
GM at this time was wanting all the cars FWD but the engineers did not. They help run up the cost on the program to help get it killed. They then tool the platform they had modified it to fit the new styling taken from the 90 Fiero and adapted it to the new updated car. It was bad we lost the Fiero but if the GM 80 came out we would have lost the Trans Am too as I would have expected this car to fail. The GTO version looked better but not much and it was a prototype anyways.
Now here is a good example of the two cars together and how
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-28-2013).]
Yes but as I said the FIrebird had the 89/90 design 1st and I can see Buick Reatta on the back end of that car. I would love to have the concept cars in my barn Rick B
Yes but as I said the FIrebird had the 89/90 design 1st and I can see Buick Reatta on the back end of that car. I would love to have the concept cars in my barn Rick B
Rick no offense but I am only going by what John Schinella stated at a public speaking engagment that I attended.
Seening that he may have an inside edge over either of our opinions as the guy who over saw the design of the Fiero and F body for years so I will have to yield to his opionion.
He stated clearly that the 93 F body was the redo of the 1990 Fiero. He stated he loved the design and said he would not let it go to waste.
Note the above photo's of the GM 80 above that is what GM was working on when the 1990 Fiero was also in the works. It was canceled in 86 and the F body was in limbo till around 1988-89. This is when the work on the new 4th gen started and the Fiero styling was free to be used at that point.
All of the GM 80 program was well documented and the history of the F body also is well documented and the 4th gen came after the Fiero's death.
I understand Scott but you even showed the Firebird in the 89/90 design style built for the Firebird in 1986 as the photos show and stated clay was 1984. I have learned and so have you that they tend to mix up dates 30 years later and other facts. I have had John Callies and Bob Birchmier realize on quite a few facts that they were mixed up. Bob swears my car was the 1st T-top for example and they did it for free to see fit. The guy at C&C "doesn't" even remember my car and acted funny about it. He told me to call back and ignored me after that. Was he mistaken? Was something up with my car that he wanted nothing to do with? How can you forget the DGP car???? If it isn't in writing we forget and above you show the Firebird concept body being made while the Fiero was being built. Heck John refused to believe Fred's Pace car was one of the 3 from the track until he seen the way it was put in and John knew it was his baby. I have him on tape stating this and more on why it isnt the car. Just saying a grain of salt is needed sometimes. Rick B
[This message has been edited by SuperchargedV6 (edited 06-29-2013).]
I understand Scott but you even showed the Firebird in the 89/90 design style built for the Firebird in 1986 as the photos show and stated clay was 1984. I have learned and so have you that they tend to mix up dates 30 years later and other facts. I have had John Callies and Bob Birchmier realize on quite a few facts that they were mixed up. Bob swears my car was the 1st T-top for example and they did it for free to see fit. The guy at C&C "doesn't" even remember my car and acted funny about it. He told me to call back and ignored me after that. Was he mistaken? Was something up with my car that he wanted nothing to do with? How can you forget the DGP car???? If it isn't in writing we forget and above you show the Firebird concept body being made while the Fiero was being built. Heck John refused to believe Fred's Pace car was one of the 3 from the track until he seen the way it was put in and John knew it was his baby. I have him on tape stating this and more on why it isnt the car. Just saying a grain of salt is needed sometimes. Rick B
Stop over thinking this Rick.
Schinella was still fresh of mind and was still working on the 4th gen f body when he made these statements around 92-93.
The Fiero was not that old and the F body was just coming on line so he knew what he was saying and knew what was going on. I also heard it first hand.
Just stop trying to make it something else and take the facts as they are and when they were given when the events were taking place back in the day. There was a room full of people there that also heard them too.
This was not just one project spoken of years after and John had a love greater for the Fiero than just about anyone at GM. If it were not for him the 1990 may not still be around from what Fred has found out about the cars history. He was one of the few that were with the program from start to finish. He fought GM to save the car and he still owns one yet today out of the many cars he designed and was in charge of he kept his Fiero.
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