So... before the shitshow starts, here's the goal: Build a mid engine car 1/2 as good as a Lotus Elise at 1/10 the cost.
So I took the plunge, and bought a fiero, drove it home. The next day put about 30 miles on it before spinning a bearing, the next day rod knock and that night, threw a rod through the side of the block.
That's right folks, I destroyed the Iron Duke.
So I pulled the motor, and went to the junkyard and bought a F23 from an accord. Planning on getting ARP rod bolts and head studs along with H22 head and tranny to build an G23. Also plan on adding boost once its all together and has proper suspension. (Yes I am aware Held motorsports makes kits, but I have a TIG and confidence I can fabricate tubular control arms to accomplish the same goal for much lower costs.)
Also removed the rear "trunk" space to create room for a rear diffuser as well as flat bottom the entire length of the car (my friend designed the aero for the Factory Five 818 racecar)
Hey Frank this is Darksyde from NYSpeed. Over here you have nothing to worry about with your decisions. You wont catch flak for it. I just mentioned your thread in our WNY thread here.
I love to see out-of-the-box engine swaps. What transmission are you using? The F23 engine spins counter-clockwise so I'd think it would have to go the other way around in the engine bay. Could make for some extra fabrication to make it work.
I always thought the honda 3.5L from a Saturn vue would be a good transplant. I really like the way those go. 250hp stock with a 5 speed automatic that always seems to be in the power band.
You won't catch any crap for swapping in a Honda motor around here. Most people on PFF on very open minded. A couple have swapped in VW motors and BMW Motors. I have always thought a Honda motor swap would be an interesting swap.
Originally posted by BHall71: I always thought the honda 3.5L from a Saturn vue would be a good transplant...
This! We have the same engine in an Odyssey, and even THAT pig will get out of its own way. And since it came in a Saturn, it means that it CAN work in a GM, in some form.
Frank... No grief from west GA. I always like to see new stuff. Especially when it works out. Please keep us posted. (I'm "honda ignorant". How much power will the F23 Honda make, when you're done?)
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
Nvr been a Honda guy, but once he posted this I started looking around. A good N/A G23 can push 250-350 with the right build out from what I have read.
^^^ What he said. Right now since I'm a bit strapped for cash the plan is ARP rod bolts, and head studs. OEM main bolts, and plastigage the bottom end bearings to ensure they are within spec. Ideally, if I can find a rear-ended H22 prelude I can use the head, transmission and shifter linkage and assembly from inside the car. If the track width is close enough I might just try and modify that subframe to fit into the rear of the fiero, If not I'll just cut and weld until I can make the stock fiero subframe mount to the new engine/tranny. Probably going to stay low compression N/A for the spring, with Hondata S300 and adding boost via ~.50 trim turbo in the summer/fall. Should be quite a blast with my final goal of 300hp/300tq which is completely doable with this setup. Also, considering the block and head are aluminum it should be significantly lighter than the iron duke. Anyone know off the top of their head how much the stock setup weighs??
They say the duke weighs about as much as a modern aluminum V8. The only number I have found anywhere was around 300+lbs. However I have no clue if that is accurate.
I will be watching this build closely. I have a friend (91 accord H22 swap) big into hondas and have thought about a honda swap. I was trying to find a cr-v with a k24 as a write-off. Althought the h22 is a relly good motor why not go with a k or a j motor. Only reason i ask is that with both these motors you can start with 200 or +with the J hp stock. I cant wait to see you get started on this and hope you get it finished. Good luck.
I will be watching this build closely. I have a friend (91 accord H22 swap) big into hondas and have thought about a honda swap. I was trying to find a cr-v with a k24 as a write-off. Althought the h22 is a relly good motor why not go with a k or a j motor. Only reason i ask is that with both these motors you can start with 200 or +with the J hp stock. I cant wait to see you get started on this and hope you get it finished. Good luck.
At least, the NSX drivetrain wouldn't be a bad swap. I wouldn't bother with the old F series though. Would be easier to just get a full H motor. The new F out of the S2000 might not be a bad swap either, but might not be so fun in the low RPM ranges.
The new F out of the S2000 might not be a bad swap either, but might not be so fun in the low RPM ranges.
The couple of dyno charts I've looked over seemed to have the torque figures pretty close what the Duke was originally rated for. Though, most of those charts didn't list anything below about 4k RPM so.... May be pretty close until you get that sucker to scream. Now you've got me thinking about stuff again.
Originally posted by skuzzbomer: The couple of dyno charts I've looked over seemed to have the torque figures pretty close what the Duke was originally rated for. Though, most of those charts didn't list anything below about 4k RPM so.... May be pretty close until you get that sucker to scream. Now you've got me thinking about stuff again.
Yeah, but the duke is still about a half liter larger, and doesn't really get the Fiero moving too quickly. Though maybe if you bolt it up to a K series transmission out of one of the Type R platforms it could get moving with the ratios there. The 07+ Civic Type R apparently has a 5.062 final drive, with 3.266 first gear.
Yeah, but the duke is still about a half liter larger, and doesn't really get the Fiero moving too quickly.
That's kind of what I was leaning towards - if someone swapped one, it'd likely behave similarly to a 4spd duke until you hit about where it would normally run out of steam, then you'd have some fun.
quote
The 07+ Civic Type R apparently has a 5.062 final drive, with 3.266 first gear.
Also what about air management into the engine compartment? The car was designed to put air into the bottom and out the top vents to keep under hood temps in check. Have you figured that in?
I recently bought a 7th gen Celica for fun, as I always liked them and one came around at a good price. You can start the car in 3rd, and even in 6th you're turning nearly 500rpm per 10mph. Not quite as short as S2000 gearing, but close. I've been trying to teach my girlfriend to drive a manual with it, and I keep having to explain, "In most cars, you don't have to shift this often." :lol: Thing scoots right along though - 180hp, short gearing, and 2500lbs.
Also what about air management into the engine compartment? The car was designed to put air into the bottom and out the top vents to keep under hood temps in check. Have you figured that in?
I have, in fact. However, I believe you're slightly backwards. Take for instance leaves blowing around in the back of a pickup truck. Same idea with a notchback. Fast moving air above the roof, goes DOWNWARD through the hood vent (where I will be putting my LARGE top mount intercooler once I boost it) and ends up under the car where more high velocity airflow is.
Also, I'm going to use an H series tranny for the short ratios.
[This message has been edited by Frank2 (edited 10-14-2013).]
I have, in fact. However, I believe you're slightly backwards. Take for instance leaves blowing around in the back of a pickup truck. Same idea with a notchback. Fast moving air above the roof, goes DOWNWARD through the hood vent (where I will be putting my LARGE top mount intercooler once I boost it) and ends up under the car where more high velocity airflow is.
Also, I'm going to use an H series tranny for the short ratios.
Take my word that the air come from under and out the top in the vents. Back in the 80's when my 1985 notch was my daily driver I saw it first hand. I drove it 3 winters and you could see the heat and air come out the top and melt the snow off on each side of the deck lid directly back of each event. I even would see the snow on the wing melt on both sides but not in the middle.
For get the pic up theory.
Now a little snow would blow off the roof and swirl on the rear window but the air was a steady stream back out the vents. I have seen where people disrupt this and the under hood temps would sky rocket.
Note too the red PPG driving team car had a turbo on the V6 and they added an extra Chrysler Lebaron Turbo hood vent to the center of the deck lid to evacuate the air out the top. The Team manager said before the opening in the top to vent to the top they were seeing oil temps near 300 degrees plus in street driving.
I would suggest you check it out and not just assume as it may save you a lot of grief. GM spent a lot of time sorting out the air flow on the engine of this car and there was a method to their madness.
I think you will find the air over the roof is like air over the top of a bottle and it creates a low pressure area and in reality enhances the air flow that is pulled up from under the car. The air just does not make a 90 degree bend down as it flows back over the top and tapers done to the rear.
Also I assume the rear diffuser is just for looks. To make it really work you have to plant the car on the ground which is not practical in a street car. This is even pointed out in a recent magazine on styling FX that are just that Styling.
Not trying to pick a fight but I just sense you may not know what I have experienced and what I learned from GM people who played with these cars back in the day. Just trying to help.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-14-2013).]
Originally posted by Frank2: I have, in fact. However, I believe you're slightly backwards. Take for instance leaves blowing around in the back of a pickup truck. Same idea with a notchback. Fast moving air above the roof, goes DOWNWARD through the hood vent (where I will be putting my LARGE top mount intercooler once I boost it) and ends up under the car where more high velocity airflow is.
The air coming off the roof creates a vacuum for air to come out of the vents and flow out of the engine bay. It does not flow into the vents.
It is sort of like a pickup truck, because the air does not flow off the roof and straight down the back of the cab, as you seem to think. It breaks off the cab, and flows to the rear. If you notice trucks with the sliding rear window, it is for air to vent out of the cab, not into it. As the air flow breaks off the roof and flows away from the cab, a low pressure area is created at the rear window, and it pulls air out of the cab when the sliding rear window is there.
Watch how the strings in this video don't get sucked down into the vents, but rather show a bit of lift:
As anyone who has ever been in, or behind, a Fiero that blew a coolant hose can attest, the circulation is up, and out through the vents. Almost nothing comes out the bottom.
I blew an A/C compressor hose a couple of months ago. All of that R134 and compressor oil went up and out the vents. It was pretty spectacular, I might add.
------------------ Raydar
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-14-2013).]
Originally posted by dobey:It is sort of like a pickup truck, because the air does not flow off the roof and straight down the back of the cab, as you seem to think. It breaks off the cab, and flows to the rear. If you notice trucks with the sliding rear window, it is for air to vent out of the cab, not into it. As the air flow breaks off the roof and flows away from the cab, a low pressure area is created at the rear window, and it pulls air out of the cab when the sliding rear window is there.
Indeed! Somewhere on the internet is a video of this in a wind-tunnel-esque scenario, where someone was dispelling the myth that running with the tailgate down is better for fuel economy than running with the tailgate up. With the tailgate up, a bubble is created in the bed that helps deflect air over the cab right over the tailgate. With the tailgate down, or with a tonneau cover installed, that bubble doesn't form and instead the low pressure area behind the bed acts on that airflow behind the truck and increases drag. In either case, though, what is behind the cab is always going to be low-pressure, just like it is on a Fiero.
Is the shift linkage going to be easy? The shift linkage in my hondas are all "front engine only" type linkages, basically impossible to ever operate from in fron of the motor.
In the Fiero, the air moves from under the engine and then out the vents on top. That is true.
The Elise/Exige is the same. The flat bottom of the Lotus has 3 strategically placed NACA ducts to allow air in.
Also, maybe of interest to you, on the supercharged Exige, the scoop on the roof doesn't get much airflow. Many people increase the air volume to the intercooler with extra hoses from the side scoops to keep heat soak at bay.
Originally posted by Darksyde: I'm shocked to see you guys here giving him more **** for this build than the guys on the other board we are on. Never would have thought.
You clearly haven't seen all the previous threads/attempts at similar swaps, with people giving the person a bunch of guff for it.
I expected this, It's not a V8 swap, and its not done yet, so they have just cause to hate. However, they don't know me or my skill set/education/dedication so they don't comprehend that this project will be finished, with more attention to detail than most. I looked through build threads on here and threw up often. Everything other than the tube chassis race car was rather laughable.
Originally posted by Frank2: ...I looked through build threads on here and threw up often. Everything other than the tube chassis race car was rather laughable.
No. No you didn't. And no they weren't.
But that's okay. Many of us understand. I still wish you success. I want to see it completed and want to listen to it scream.
