Feds Told GM To Drop Pontiac Or No Bailout, Ex-GM Exec Says
When General Motors shut down Pontiac, it left a lot of enthusiasts wondering why. It was primed with a lineup of powerful, rear-wheel drive models, and seemed like it had a bright future ahead of it. It turns out that GM killed it on government orders, according to former GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz.
Pontiac, A Eulogy: Excitement No More
Welcome, friends. We're here today to bid farewell to GM's Pontiac. Once a re-badged middle ground between Chevy and Buick, it attempted to … Read…
When General Motors shut down Pontiac, it left a lot of enthusiasts wondering why. It was primed with a lineup of powerful, rear-wheel drive models, and seemed like it had a bright future ahead of it. It turns out that GM killed it on government orders, according to former GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz.P
Friend of Jalopnik and west coast editor for Autoweek Blake Rong had an interview with Lutz today, and from what Rong is putting out on his Twitter feed, it's full of plenty of bombshells. None bigger, though, than this one:P
Get Sad Because Bob Lutz Says Pontiac Was Going To Make A New GTO
I'm a big fan of the last-gen Pontiac GTO, the boring-looking Australian captive import with a not-at-all boring pair of LS V8 engines. That one … Read…
If true, it's a big revelation of the scope of power that the government held over GM during the worst days of the recession. Power and threats like that are often spoken of, though rarely in such explicit terms. Even still, there's not much of an explanation yet as to the specific objections the feds had about Pontiac. The division seemed to be heading in the right direction after years of wayward stumbling. The Pontiac G8 was receiving rave reviews, and a new GTO in the pipeline.1P
Auto scribes are rarely the creative type and we're all easily led to follow the storyline laid out for us by the car companies. In the case of… Read…
Lutz went on to tell Rong that Pontiac was intended to have an all rear-wheel-drive lineup, and that the new Pontiac G6 was supposed to share a platform with the fairly excellent Cadillac ATS.P
It's amazing what could have been, and we may never know the exact internal discussions the government had when it decided to shutdown the storied brand. Something tells me Lutz knows more of the story.P
UPDATE: It turns out Bob Lutz was speaking at an event at the Petersen Museum in Los Angeles, and expanded on his comments more in a Q&A. Lutz is asked about Pontiac around the 2:14:10 mark here:P
The Feds basically wanted to get GM down to Cadillac and Chevrolet. They said "you don't need all these brands. You need one prestige brand, and one mass-market brand." And we said "well we can't get rid of Buick because Buick is important in China, and if Buick becomes an orphan in the United States then the Chinese are no longer gonna be interested in it." And the Feds said "Fair enough, but everything else goes." We said well we'd also like to keep GMC. They said "well, GMC is basically just like Chevrolet," and we said "that may be true, there may be a lot of shared components, but GMC has an entirely different image, a different customer base, and people are willing to pay different prices for a GMC, and here's the profitability," and the Feds said "whoops, okay, keep GMC."
So now we had Buick, GMC, Cadillac, and Chevrolet, and then, I wanted, badly wanted, to keep Pontiac, because Pontiac was on its way back, and it had been mismanaged for a number of years, you know, with 'rebuild excitement,' and the excitement was only in the plastic body cladding, mechanically there was nothing about pontiac in the 90s that would make your heart beat faster. And with the solstice and solstice coupe, and with the Pontiac G8, which was a great car. We were embarked on a strategy of making pontiac different from the rest of GM in that pontiac wouldn't get any front wheel drive cars, they would all be rear-wheel drive, and the next G6, was going to use the architecture of the cadillac ATS, it was going to be a 3-series sized rear-wheel Pontiac, with basically the cadillac ate de-premiumized, obviously, a lot of the cost taken out, but still fundamentally that architecture.
That was going to be the next G6, and I think we could've moved pontiac away from every other American volume brand and really started positioning it as attractive US alternative to some of the, and obviously at much lower prices than the european rear-wheel drive cars, but the Feds said "yeah, let's just, how much money have you made on pontiac in the last 10 years?" and the answer was "nothing." So, it goes. And, when the guy who is handing you the check for 53 billion dollars says I don't want pontiac, drop pontiac or you don't get the money, it doesn't take you very long to make up your mind.
But I think it is a shame, Pontiac was on its way back, and it was killed before it, before the plant could really sprout blossoms, you know, it was well on its way. So, I agree with you, I think Pontiac was a great, wonderful history, mismanaged for a number of years in the 80s and 90s and it was clearly on its way back, and we were starting to see a very good customer base in solstices and especially in the G8, which was favorably compared in a lot of road tests to the BMW 5-series, people would say dynamically the car is as good and it's more powerful and way cheaper, but that was too bad. but you can't go through chapter 11 without some really harmful effects.
I understand what this is about. Pontiac was a good tag-line, plus all the cars that made many folks happy with driving one. They made many interesting cars including the fiero.
The big 3 are comming out with old car names from the past with newer vehicules. I like that fact that they think and take the time / effort for those cars that made history. I only respect those cars that they make that come with an engine, not small 4 bangers. Look at the Challanger, that was a big hit. Charger too. At least they came equipped with a decent V8 engine. The Pontiac GTO was a hell of a muscule car back in the day. The last model was a disgrace. That thing was a big miss. No excitement there.
Personally, I think GM should come out with a new Fiero. Ok, many might dis-agree. At least their mistake was engine fires in the beginning. They should come out with something that would "detour" the engine fire reputation so the public won't have a chance of thinking of that issue when they came out. Its all how you design the car, market the car, and present the car. They could make a serious model, a GT model, and a smaller displacement economical model fiero. Puting an engine that would perform with the Corvette, LS series engines, aluminum chassis, use of carbon fiber components, 350 and up HP. GM could make this car sell like hot cakes again. Anything is possible.
Back in the day (80s), the Corvette and Camaro was around. Same division. Now that Pontiac is gone that may be hard to get the Fiero back. Just because of the division brand is gone, that may complicate things.
Unless GM makes a replacement model from the Fiero (like other japanese, or American makers did)
Its always a try...but I don't think that day will come.
The Pontiac GTO was a hell of a muscule car back in the day. The last model was a disgrace. That thing was a big miss. No excitement there.
As a Monaro owner I have to call crap on that. That car could do things no old GTO ever could have imagined and was exciting to drive. When it came out there wasn't many cars in its price range that had the performance and fun factor it had. Watch Clarkson drifting one and tell me that is not an exciting car. I can only assume you have never driven one.
As a Monaro owner I have to call crap on that. That car could do things no old GTO ever could have imagined and was exciting to drive. When it came out there wasn't many cars in its price range that had the performance and fun factor it had. Watch Clarkson drifting one and tell me that is not an exciting car. I can only assume you have never driven one.
I think he (fierogt28) and alot of Americans just feel that way about the newer GTO's is because it doesn't look like the older classic GTO's. Like GM did with the new Camaros, which is based off of the Vauxhall VXR8. The newer GTO doesn't look like the GTO's of the olden days, but it is still a bad a** car and it is a muscle car in every aspect. A Blue 2005-2006 GTO with Blue Leather Interior and a 6 speed is on my list of cars I have to own. You just have to drive one. I got excited right when I turned the key, that 400HP V8 just rocked the car when it roared to life.
[This message has been edited by craigsfiero2007 (edited 10-27-2013).]
Originally posted by Old Lar: Pontiac ceased in 2010, who was president in 2010? It was his fault, not Bush's.
Because clearly it's the President's fault, and not GM's or anyone else's.
Pontiac ceased because it wasn't making enough money, and for the bailout to succeed, it needed to go. It's that simple. Blaming the government, or any president, because GM failed as a company, is stupid.
Also, the bailouts were started under Bush's regime, even if they didn't get implemented until after he was gone. Presidents sign things into law all the time that won't take effect until after they have left office. And Congress does the same when making laws. They often create bills, and may get voted out of office, before the bills even get passed into law, or before they take effect, after having been passed.
The only people at fault for Pontiac (or any other division of GM) being shut down, are the people running GM. If it wasn't for the Government helping them, all of GM, Chrysler, and Ford, would have been shut down, their assets sold off, and all their employees left without jobs. Or at least, they would have gotten sold off for cheap to the Chinese government, or maybe VW or Fiat.
Pontiac ceased in 2010, who was president in 2010? It was his fault, not Bush's.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
From Wikipedia: "On December 2, 2008, General Motors announced that it was considering eliminating numerous brands, including Pontiac, in order to appease Congress in hope of receiving a 25 billion dollar loan. On February 17, 2009, GM originally proposed the elimination of its Saturn division, the sale of Saab, and either the sale or elimination of Hummer, depending on whether a buyer could be found quickly. In the original plan GM also clarified that Pontiac would have begun to focus on "niche" models aimed at the "youthful and sporty" segment, but did not provide specifics. Pontiac was to trim its number of models to four, although there was talk of retaining only one model. By April 2009 several automotive websites and business publications were reporting that GM was doing a study suggesting it might eliminate the brand altogether, along with sister truck brand GMC. On April 23 a report was published stating the company would be dropping the Pontiac brand while preserving the GMC truck line, as well as the Chevrolet, Cadillac, and Buick brands. The decision to eliminate Pontiac was made primarily due to the increasing threat of a bankruptcy filing if the June 1 deadline could not be met. On April 27, 2009, GM officially announced that Pontiac would be dropped and that all of its remaining models would be phased out by the end of 2010."
Pontiac ceased as an automaker at the close of the 2009 model year, but for the history books(also from Wikipedia): "The last Pontiac, a 2010 G6, was built in early 2010 when GM restarted the Orion Assembly Line to manufacture one final 2010 Pontiac G6, after the earlier G6 line at Orion and the Wave/G3 line in San Luis Potosi were shut down in November and December, 2009 respectively. This was most likely done purposely so GM could show that the final Pontiac ever manufactured (and the only one ever manufactured in 2010) was at an American plant."
Neither the current nor previous president of the US had any direct involvement that resulted in this outcome. The loss of Pontiac was the result of many years of mis-management of General Motors by the GM board. While I am personally sad that Pontiac has become a thing of history now, there are many other people who likely feel the same way about Oldsmobile, Plymouth, Mercury, Saturn, and even Hummer.
There are a lot of ideas on why they killed or should have kept Pontiac but in the end it was the condition of Pontiac and the changes in the market as we have it today.
Lets get some facts on the table and let them play out Keep in mind I am a life long Pontiac owner and fan so I say this with conviction of honesty not hate.
1 Pontiac was severely damages as a performance division. We had a performance division that other than the last minute additions of Lutz in the G8 and Solstice no real performance cars. Just look a the G3-G4-G6, Torrent and Vibe and none were true performance cars. I even had to go to a Chevy t get a Turbo Ecotec.
2 The market has changes and there are no need for 5-6 divisions in a company anymore. Generally most modern automotive companies thrive on 2-3 divisions.
3 To fix GM with only 4 North American division as it is will take billions of dollars and no less than 10 years. Even then more work will still need to be done. Look now they are still using pre chapter 11 designs for cars like the Malibu as they are still working on the post Chapter 11 version.
4 The 800 pound gorilla in the room China. The Chinese buy a lot of Buicks and so GM will continue to merge Opel and Buick to create a global model.
5 Holden is not linked to Chevy much like Buick is to Opel and Vauxhall. What is Chevys will be Holden's and what is Holden's will be Chevys.
6 Part of what killed Pontiac is the fact one that they were not understood by many at GM and even then they really had no money to do it right. Pontiac post Fiero was pretty much a fancy Chevy with red dash lights. There is nothing that Pontiac did in the last 20 years that Chevy could not do better with proper funding on one car vs. spread out over two cars. Those with 4th gen F bodies do you know why your window cranks fail an the interior is so cheap. GM did not have the money to finish them as needed by the time they did the drive train and suspension. This came from he lead F body manager himself.
7 Pontiac lost many die hard fans in 1979 when they dropped the Pontiac V8. You take the heart and soul of what really made a Pontiac a Pontiac you kill it. I did not understand this for years but looking back I now understand. I think I am a Fiero fan as it is really a Pontiac and was not shared with any other division. Even the 4 was a Pontiac engine. The GP, Grand and Trans Am were just re bodied Chevys for the most part.
8 like it or not Chevy can do anything Pontiac could or should have done and at this point they will be better funded to do so. Did anyone ask why the 2004 GTO did not have hood scoops or a duel exhaust? Because GM could not afford to do it till the next year. People have to keep in mind the GTO was a great car but you were not going to get a major make over from Holden body wise as Pontiac had no budget or money for the car. It was only due to Lutz doing a perfect Hail Mary that got the car here. He looked and said we have a performance division with no RWD? Why did it take him and no one else at GM to figure this out. What about a Turbo Eco in the G4? ETC. If Bob Lutz had gotten here 10 years earlier Pontiac may have had a slight chance but they were beyond saving and even he knows that today.
9 There really is no market for a Fiero today. Also if you look at the history of many low priced 2 seat cars their lives are limited. MR2, RX7 280 Z etc. all had limited lives. The two that buck the trend are the Corvette and Miata and other than that they are low profit short lived cars. Even the Solstice would have died in the near future even if Pontiac had lived.
10 Do not hold your breath for Pontiac to come back. While we are now getting the replacement G8 in a Chevy SS and the Firebird lives on in the Camaro as well as the Torrent is now what it should have been in the first place a GMC the spirit of Pontiac lives on but in a more economical and globally efficient global market package. From this point on GM is not just an American car company it is a true global company. What is here will be there and what is there will be here. There are going to be some major changes yet to come with the passing in the near future of the Zeta platform and the rise of the Alpha and Omega platforms.
11 Performance is far from dead at GM as the spirit of what was Pontiac is in many cars and we have yet to really see the new Buick yet as they are still living on the old platforms and the new are a couple years out yet. The Regal GS is a hint to what you will see. The fact is GM has $15K-$100K covered in models and products to fit nearly each niche of any segment with volume. They are moving Cadillac up in scale and price to make room for Buick and also let Chevy stretch out a little more. The reality is the average price of a car in 2013 is $37,000. Many said if you killed Pontiac and Saturn GM would fail but to be honest take a look a the numbers they have increase market share and profits since the turn around.
12 The fact is Pontiac had to go as well as Saturn as there really was not sound reason to keep them other tan the small segment that were still buying them that most of which went to other GM brands. Yes most Pontiac owners went to Buick and Chevy just as I did as they found they really were the same cars and were not fooled by the red dash lights and cladding. I did like the styling on the G8 better than the SS but it is what it is. Look for the SS to be replace soon with a Alpha based sedan that will have more options and a V6 in a few years. The Gen 6 Camaro and the SS sedan I expect will share many things while being two different cars. Also read up on the CTS and ATS on the Alpha and see what the first new post chapter 11 platform has to offer vs. the old outdated ones that serves us well.
I have been at the Pontiac nationals every year since they closed Pontiac down and there are few there that are upset. As many see it there the brand and the models they were producing in the late years damaged the Pontiac image more than help it. We all have our old Pontiacs and they can never take away what they are or stood for. We as Fiero owners should be proud as the truth be said we truly own the last real Pontiac. They were the last Pontiac only model, they had a Pontiac engine available and they were built in Pontiac Michigan. How much more Pontiac can you get than that. That is something no Solstice, G8 or GXP owner can claim.
I recommend reading these books to get a handle just on how dysfunctional GM really was.
On a Clear Day You Can See GM by John Delorean
Bean Car guys and Bean Counters by Bob Lutz
I also recommend just to better understand the car industry and how screwed up it can be.
Icons and Idiots by Bob Lutz The book is on leaders from all automakers Lutz has worked for
Guts By Bob Lutz as it spells out what he also faced at Chrysler.
There are some other good books too on GM but these are my favorites and most honest ones on the market. Uncle Bob smashes some toes but still shows his passion for GM.
One more book Chevy Racing? 1957-1970. It is about how they had to back door all their racing due to GM leaderships ban on racing in the 60's.
Being informed on this topic can put a whole different light on it. It is easy to think with your heart and emotion but that is not what fully runs companies. Too often passion unbalanced buy a good business plan will kill even the strongest company. Todays markets are changing fast and we have yet to see the last automaker fail. I would recommend watching Chrysler as Fiat is broke and Chrysler is only really making money with the trucks. Note that the name change from Dodge to Ram will make it easier to remove the trucks from Chrysler should they fail.
If running a auto maker was as easy as many of us including myself make it sound there would be no issues making money. The trouble is when you get to the details away from designing and loving cars that the difficulty factors in.
Also I am no fan of the president or the government but GM put themselves into this trouble. The only reason Ford avoided this issue is they failed a few years before when they could get bank loans. GM's issues cam on the tail of the bank bail outs and there were no loans to be had. Ford may not own the government much but they still owe the banks and leveraged their plants on it. They fail to pay the loans they lose he company. While they are well on the way to pay the loans they still need to remain profitable or they could still fail.
No matter who was in office we could not let the out makers fail. the truth is the government could not let GM fail. The reasoning there was mostly jobs not just at GM but also the suppliers of parts. Also national security. GM has the most and largest plants in the country and if time comes like WW 2 they can be called on to make what ever is needed. This is one thing that is lost in England today as they has so little MFG anymore.
This is just not some simple issue with only a few facts that need to be considered. I am sorry for being so long but even here I only touched on some of the major points in a general form.
As for the 04 GTO we got the best they could offer and while the styling was old for here it was fairly new down under. They had no money to re body the car more than they already did. It was a better car then the F body ever was. It sold in the end like it was expected too in low volume. The dealer pricing did more to hurt it than anything else. Today low mileage used ones are selling for high prices so it must not have been all that bad over all.
We have to keep in mind what is old here at times was new down under. Since there is a lot of space between GM often over the years reused styling cues on cars for Holden that worked here. It has paid off over the years as Holden has always been a strong company. Today they are fighting the imports just as we did years ago and the infusion of the smaller Chevys should help to keep them competitive and help hold cost down while sharing engineering and part suppliers.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-27-2013).]
As a Monaro owner I have to call crap on that. That car could do things no old GTO ever could have imagined and was exciting to drive. When it came out there wasn't many cars in its price range that had the performance and fun factor it had. Watch Clarkson drifting one and tell me that is not an exciting car. I can only assume you have never driven one.
The Monaro was a fantastic car. The failure of the "new" GTO wasn't mechanical - it was marketing. The new front grill was too much "Grand Am" and not enough "GTO" and most people wanted a retro-GTO. Pontiac tried to capture on the retro name with a modern car and it didn't work. I don't think anyone who has ever driven one could honestly say they weren't good cars. I still hate that we never got the Ute. The "G8" front styling on the Ute looked really good. If the GTO had that more aggressive type of styling, it might have sold better.
I really thought they should have scrapped the rest of the Pontiac line and started selling Holdens as re-branded Pontiacs, like Vauxhall does in Europe. G8, Ute, and bring back a real fire breathing GTO with the Coupe 60.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 10-27-2013).]
Originally posted by AusFiero: I begrudge them calling the Monaro boring when our HSV GTO version was far from, and looked heaps better than the USA GTO. ...
GM made a logistical error, marketing the Monaro as a Pontiac in the first place. Everyone that I know who has an opinion always likens Holden to Chevrolet. (Hell... there is at least one version of Holden SS. Commodore. Maybe others?)
I think that if GM had badged the Monaro as a Chevy, and called it "Chevelle SS" that they would have sold all they could import. The detractors even complained that it looked like a Chevy. Why? Because it DID!
To the original topic... This just puts it down in black and white. I've heard rumors that that was the reason for killing Pontiac, since it happened.
That the gummint demanded it? No surprise there. The thugocracy continues.
It will be interesting to see what happens once the US govt sells off its remaining 7.5 percent share of GM. Yes, I believe it is just a matter of time and Pontiac will be back. A Buick/GMC channel would be much stronger with a higher volume Pontiac part of the mix.
If people would actually read the entire article, they would see what Bob Lutz is talking about was conditions the Obama admin gave GM for the pre-packaged bankruptcy. Yes bailouts started during the Bush admin, but nothing to do with the bankruptcy conditions were done by the Bush admin, that was all Obama admin and his Car Czar. I tend to believe words from Bob Lutz's own mouth over a wikipedia entry.
I realize its fun to blame everything bad that has happened throughout time on Bush, but give it a rest already.
Another point that Lutz makes is that Pontiac was on its way back. It would have had an all rear wheel drive line-up including a replacement G6 based on the same platform as the Cadillac ATS. If you look at the used car demand/prices for G8's and Solsitices, you can see people still want what Pontiac was trying to build.
[This message has been edited by mrfred8 (edited 10-27-2013).]
In all the auto industry brand blunders, the seeds for destruction are sown about 10 years before it actually happens. The public perception of Pontiac was awful, just as Bob Lutz described, and the more recent good products cannot save it. The government did not force GM into bankruptcy. The government may have wanted to change a bunch of things at Ford, but would be powerless to do so because Ford management was not begging for mercy. Rick Waggoner had to go, and a bunch of decisions had to be made when GM management was incapable of making them. How they got out of all that with a pickup truck that has 2 brands is beyond logical. Dumping Pontiac may be arbitrary, but the decision was primarily GM's. The Guv just looks at the bottom line and the right people for their decision.
[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 10-27-2013).]
Dumping Pontiac may be arbitrary, but I the decision was primarily GM's.
Did you read the article? Is Bob Lutz lying when he said
"And, when the guy who is handing you the check for 53 billion dollars says I don't want pontiac, drop pontiac or you don't get the money, it doesn't take you very long to make up your mind"
Bob Lutz is a colorful character. He offers a lot of insight into the industry, but you would be foolish to think that there was not more than one GM authored proposal on the table, and the only one that makes sense financially is the one that drops Pontiac. So is that the government's fault? Is Bob Lutz lying? No.. it's just the way negotiating works, and the way Bob writes about it.
If people would actually read the entire article, they would see what Bob Lutz is talking about was conditions the Obama admin gave GM for the pre-packaged bankruptcy. Yes bailouts started during the Bush admin, but nothing to do with the bankruptcy conditions were done by the Bush admin, that was all Obama admin and his Car Czar. I tend to believe words from Bob Lutz's own mouth over a wikipedia entry.
I realize its fun to blame everything bad that has happened throughout time on Bush, but give it a rest already.
Another point that Lutz makes is that Pontiac was on its way back. It would have had an all rear wheel drive line-up including a replacement G6 based on the same platform as the Cadillac ATS. If you look at the used car demand/prices for G8's and Solsitices, you can see people still want what Pontiac was trying to build.
Sorry there was never any replacement for the G6 and when GM went into the chapter 11 there was no Alpha program or ATS at the time.
Basing your Pontiac comeback on the Solstice and G8 premature as if you look at he supply of the how many were built it was very low. Now the SS is on USA soil it will drop G8 prices.
Stock gets sold there still will be no Pontiac.
I have a friend who was a Pontiac Dealer and is now GMC only. GM is working to get him a Buick franchise but there is no Pontiac in his or GM's near future.
As for Lutz comments pay close attention to the dates as he tried to save Pontiac early on but in time realized there was no way to do it.
Once GM solves and fixes all their issues and gains the number one slot globally we can talk Pontiac again.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-27-2013).]
In all the auto industry brand blunders, the seeds for destruction are sown about 10 years before it actually happens. The public perception of Pontiac was awful, just as Bob Lutz described, and the more recent good products cannot save it. The government did not force GM into bankruptcy. The government may have wanted to change a bunch of things at Ford, but would be powerless to do so because Ford management was not begging for mercy. Rick Waggoner had to go, and a bunch of decisions had to be made when GM management was incapable of making them. How they got out of all that with a pickup truck that has 2 brands is beyond logical. Dumping Pontiac may be arbitrary, but the decision was primarily GM's. The Guv just looks at the bottom line and the right people for their decision.
The reason GM got out with two trucks is if you want to be profitable you do not kill a high profit division like GMC.
Rick was not the problem. He did make mistakes buy not making some hard choices but he for the most part was the guy that just happened to be in charge after decades of mistakes.
Of anyone Fiero owners should be the ones most aware of some of the issues inside GM. Just look at the mismanagement and the infighting of GM inside itself. GM did not have to worry about Ford or Toyota as they did enough damage themselves between divisions.
Originally posted by hyperv6: The reason GM got out with two trucks is if you want to be profitable you do not kill a high profit division like GMC.
Thank you for making my point. If profitablity was the overriding factor there would be no Chevy pickup now, and all the GM loyal customers would be driving GMCs much to the glee of GM corporate bean counters, but we all know it does not work like that. Chevrolet division was carrying most of the costs and GMC was getting the gravy customers. Both brands survived because of less tangible reasons having to do with dealers and internal politics, and there was not enough money there to change the corporate bottom line. GMC profits (or loss) would find their proper level if there was no Chevrolet pickup....so it's an internal bookkeeping trick. Advocates for Pontiac did not have the same cover.
Aus, the Monaro was a great car. The trouble with the US GTO was it ended up nothing like the Monaro. It lacked everything from the GTO name (and Monaro). It looked like every other cookie cutter GM junker. They put a fast motor in it, and even that wasnt enough for it to live up to its rep. Just looked like a higher end trim kit for the Grand Am to me...I was never impressed. The only thing they did right....that Dodge didnt do with Charger...was make it a 2 door. They should have followed trends and made some visual semblence to the original...like Camaro, Mustang, Challenger. It just didnt spark any excitement.
Thank you for making my point. If profitablity was the overriding factor there would be no Chevy pickup now, and all the GM loyal customers would be driving GMCs much to the glee of GM corporate bean counters, but we all know it does not work like that. Chevrolet division was carrying most of the costs and GMC was getting the gravy customers. Both brands survived because of less tangible reasons having to do with dealers and internal politics, and there was not enough money there to change the corporate bottom line. GMC profits (or loss) would find their proper level if there was no Chevrolet pickup....so it's an internal bookkeeping trick. Advocates for Pontiac did not have the same cover.
Come on this is no grassy knoll issues here.
It is simple the trucks share many parts and the development cost is spread out over both brands for the most part. The key here is Chevy is very profitable but GMC is even more profitable as they sell at a much higher exchange price than the Chevy. Also it gives GM the ability to offer a profitable line for Buick to sell while they rebuild. This is just simple business and it is called making money.
If you axed off GMC it would dent the profits and market share with the numbers they sell.
Let put this simple. Premier GMC in Rittman Ohio was a Pontiac and GMC dealer. Today they are GMC only. Gee losing Pontiac you would think that would finish a dealer off. On the contrary they are now more profitable than ever as they have gotten more GMC products and are able to sell them at a much higher profit.
Their key is the SUV market as the Terrain and Yukon and Acadia and then add the trucks they are now averaging right at $60,000 per unit sold at the dealer. Add this to the volume they do since they are the only GMC dealer for miles around and they are doing just fine. In fact they can even afford to re do the dealer in the new style with out pinching pennies. GM wants them to have a Buick line too but they will make it with or with out the cars.
Note too that sales numbers of Pontiac in the last years and that the profits were meager. In the large picture all those that predicted GM would lose market share after killing Pontiac, Saturn, Saab and Hummer were wrong as they gained market share and even have had record or near record profits.
Sorry but it is more about making money and if Pontiac had been making a good profit with more market share they would still be here. They were not and the fact of the matter they had no global market just made it worse. For them to have lasted they would have had to take the place of Buick that is mega profitable in China and Pontiac would have had to merge with Opel in sharing models and engineering on a global scale.
It is simple GM is now global and we will not just have a North American division of any models anymore. Everything is going to be sold here and outside the states less just a couple local models that better fit small and local markets. Case in point the Acadia or Traverse is not going to be sold in Europe nor is some of the small minivan like Opel's will be sold here.
When Pontiac died there was only one real car that would have been nice to have planned and that was a second Gen GTO. It never got past the drawing stage as pointed out by Lutz. They never got close to production with it. The Solstice was going to die in a year or two and the G8 lives on at Chevy now as they are just now hitting the shores.
When you look at the G3 can you say with a straight face that Pontiac was not damaged beyond belief?
There is nothing Pontiac could offer that Chevy and Buick will address in the next few years. We have a lot of product coming that you have not even heard of yet as GM stopped telegraphing their moves 5 years in advance. From what I do know there is some cool things coming and some folks will be surprised at the changes.
The only Buick that is post Chapter 11 so far is the Encore. All the other models were pre chapter 11 and are not fully the direction Buick and Opel will go. Chevy and Cadillac got the attention first and now Chevy is working on replacing the Cruze and Malibu as they are pre Chapter 11 Cars. The new money has not hit on the FWD cars yet and we only got the one RWD platform with a second on the way.
Have to agree with the grand Am look. They should have used HSVs GTO version and put a new front with a slimmer GTO inspired grille and maybe even twin headlights. Trying to find a GTO version I photoshopped years ago. I think it looked better than what GM did with it.
Marketing as a Chev probably would have worked too.. Seeing Commodores are sold as Chev models around the world already.
I think he (fierogt28) and alot of Americans just feel that way about the newer GTO's is because it doesn't look like the older classic GTO's. Like GM did with the new Camaros, which is based off of the Vauxhall VXR8.
Have to correct that. The new Camaro was a joint effort from Australia and USA designers using the Holden Commodore as the platform. The Vauxhall is a Commodore. I remember seeing photos of the Camaro test mules being on the streets of Australia during development and hoped they would release them here. They almost did, along with Cadillacs but canned selling the USA models here.
Apparently you are a GM employee? You have lots of information there, and a rosy outlook. Anticipating good things in the future has always been a strength of GM all the way back to the days of Billy Mitchell and the Motorama. Hope you are right, but.... GMC could not survive without Chevrolet, and is therefore by definition redundant; either division could sell the entire line of hardware....GM wanted to save it to keep those extra dealers you are talking about, and perhaps it's the right move, but it did not help Pontiac.
Originally posted by hyperv6: Come on this is no grassy knoll issues here.
It is simple the trucks share many parts and the development cost is spread out over both brands for the most part. The key here is Chevy is very profitable but GMC is even more profitable as they sell at a much higher exchange price than the Chevy. Also it gives GM the ability to offer a profitable line for Buick to sell while they rebuild. This is just simple business and it is called making money.
If you axed off GMC it would dent the profits and market share with the numbers they sell.
Let put this simple. Premier GMC in Rittman Ohio was a Pontiac and GMC dealer. Today they are GMC only. Gee losing Pontiac you would think that would finish a dealer off. On the contrary they are now more profitable than ever as they have gotten more GMC products and are able to sell them at a much higher profit.
Their key is the SUV market as the Terrain and Yukon and Acadia and then add the trucks they are now averaging right at $60,000 per unit sold at the dealer. Add this to the volume they do since they are the only GMC dealer for miles around and they are doing just fine. In fact they can even afford to re do the dealer in the new style with out pinching pennies. GM wants them to have a Buick line too but they will make it with or with out the cars.
Note too that sales numbers of Pontiac in the last years and that the profits were meager. In the large picture all those that predicted GM would lose market share after killing Pontiac, Saturn, Saab and Hummer were wrong as they gained market share and even have had record or near record profits.
Sorry but it is more about making money and if Pontiac had been making a good profit with more market share they would still be here. They were not and the fact of the matter they had no global market just made it worse. For them to have lasted they would have had to take the place of Buick that is mega profitable in China and Pontiac would have had to merge with Opel in sharing models and engineering on a global scale.
It is simple GM is now global and we will not just have a North American division of any models anymore. Everything is going to be sold here and outside the states less just a couple local models that better fit small and local markets. Case in point the Acadia or Traverse is not going to be sold in Europe nor is some of the small minivan like Opel's will be sold here. When Pontiac died there was only one real car that would have been nice to have planned and that was a second Gen GTO. It never got past the drawing stage as pointed out by Lutz. They never got close to production with it. The Solstice was going to die in a year or two and the G8 lives on at Chevy now as they are just now hitting the shores.
When you look at the G3 can you say with a straight face that Pontiac was not damaged beyond belief?
There is nothing Pontiac could offer that Chevy and Buick will address in the next few years. We have a lot of product coming that you have not even heard of yet as GM stopped telegraphing their moves 5 years in advance. From what I do know there is some cool things coming and some folks will be surprised at the changes.
The only Buick that is post Chapter 11 so far is the Encore. All the other models were pre chapter 11 and are not fully the direction Buick and Opel will go. Chevy and Cadillac got the attention first and now Chevy is working on replacing the Cruze and Malibu as they are pre Chapter 11 Cars. The new money has not hit on the FWD cars yet and we only got the one RWD platform with a second on the way.
A former general manager of mine was on the GM Commercial Dealer board and confirmed GMC is one of the most profitable divisions. Also Buick dealers would not have survived with out GMC. Case in point most of the Buick dealers sales around here just plain stink! They are surviving on GMC sales!
Now you seem to like Chevrolet, sorry but when I sold Pontiacs it was easy to sell them over chebys! Chevy products are just so darned plain. Personally as a long time past Pontiac sales person and long time member of the Pontiac Oakland Club International, when Pontiac went away, so did GM vehicles in the drive way(with the exception of Fieros). My wife gets a new car every 3 years. GM has lost out on 2 so far and her lease on her current car is up this summer. I pick the cars for her to drive. So there is a 99% chance it will not be a GM vehicle. I am looking at Ford, Dodge, Fiat, VW, may be another German car and Mazda. Cruze is just plain chevy ugly. Buicks are to expensive! You can get a better German car for less.
[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 10-27-2013).]
Apparently you are a GM employee? You have lots of information there, and a rosy outlook. Anticipating good things in the future has always been a strength of GM all the way back to the days of Billy Mitchell and the Motorama. Hope you are right, but.... GMC could not survive without Chevrolet, and is therefore by definition redundant; either division could sell the entire line of hardware....GM wanted to save it to keep those extra dealers you are talking about, and perhaps it's the right move, but it did not help Pontiac.
If we ever meet I'll buy you a beer.
I am not a GM employee I am just informed with what is going on and have read and followed accurate information. I work in the performance aftermarket where over half of my business is GM related to it is in my vested interest to know what in the hell is going on and not have the fantasies that many on the web like to have.
No GMC would not survive is there was no Chevy line. But GMC per unit sold goes for a much higher exchange price with each customer and that translates into more profit. If you want to take the next step the Cadillac SUV's would not be around if it were not for the Chevys either. But the fact it the most profitable Vehicles GM sells are the Cadillac SUV models.
The frosting on a Cadillac is much less than the price paid per unit by a long shot. You should see how much they make on these models.
The fact is the only thing that could have saved Pontiac is if they could have sold more cars in China than Buick. And since the last emperor did not own a Pontiac but he did own a Buick the Chinese hold them in very high regard. China saved Buick and there were just not enough North American sales for Pontiac and no global sales so it was DOA even before the bail out. GM knew it was going to die before they went to the Government for money.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-27-2013).]
A former general manager of mine was on the GM Commercial Dealer board and confirmed GMC is one of the most profitable divisions. Also Buick dealers would not have survived with out GMC. Case in point most of the Buick dealers sales around here just plain stink! They are surviving on GMC sales!
Now you seem to like Chevrolet, sorry but when I sold Pontiacs it was easy to sell them over chebys! Chevy products are just so darned plain. Personally as a long time past Pontiac sales person and long time member of the Pontiac Oakland Club International, when Pontiac went away, so did GM vehicles in the drive way(with the exception of Fieros). My wife gets a new car every 3 years. GM has lost out on 2 so far and her lease on her current car is up this summer. I pick the cars for her to drive. So there is a 99% chance it will not be a GM vehicle. I am looking at Ford, Dodge, Fiat, VW, may be another German car and Mazda. Cruze is just plain chevy ugly. Buicks are to expensive! You can get a better German car for less.
I was a Pontiac fan first and always but the reality is in effect here.
As John Schinella of GM said Chevy sells more cars so Chevy get more say on what happens.
Sorry if you by a Fiat. The reality is the Pontiacs of the last so many years were Chevys with cladding and some changes to the styling. The G6 was a Malibu, the G4 was a Cobalt etc.
I hate to tell you but if Pontiac was still around they would be the same price as a Buick as if they were cheaper they would be priced with Chevy so why duplicate a price segment? The truth is all the cars are too much but that is just the way it is today.
If you want to defect that is fine as most did not. The reality is Pontiac left but they did not lose market share nor profits at GM like many predicted.
GM is a work in progress and in time we all will see where this is going. I think the proof of the post chapter 11 cars like the CTS, ATS and Corvette are proof of where this is going. The fact that they rolled the GM Performance Division people from a segregated division fixing old car to integrating them into the new product lines from the start are paying off with the handling on the most recent cars. Owning a GMPD car my self I know first hand what they can do. Just look at what they did with the old Zeta Camaro and just think what they will do with the Alpha Camaro less 500 pounds from the present weight.
This is a big picture thing and in the end with a lot of work, investment and luck things should work out.
GM dropping Pontiac is like Nestles dropping WillyWonker they still sell candy GM still sells cars. If the name is dropped long enough a revival will be huge event. No point having that huge event in current climate. There will be another Pontiac your kids will make certain of it and they will pay big bucks for it when it returns.
Pontiac actually spoiled it's own brand by badging a full range of cars as a Pontiac it should have been dedicated to muscle not commuting family hatchbacks wagons and the range.
[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 10-28-2013).]
Like I said in the OT thread - Pontiac or Saturn could've made a US version of this, and I would place an order the moment I heard they'd be available.
[This message has been edited by Dburger (edited 10-28-2013).]
" The government did not force GM into bankruptcy. "
Giving them ultimatums was the same thing. .....Do this or else we dont give you bailout money.... The govenment directly was responsible for many profitable dealers getting closed down and thier employees going to the unemployment lines. If you dont believe that, you drank Obumas Kool-aid too. I personally know a few local dealers who were closed completely by the bailouts. One had been in business for over 100 years and opened as a family business selling Conestoga Covered Wagons in the 1800s. They were doing just fine selling the number of cars they wanted to. They were told by Chrysler Corp they would get no more new Dodge vehicles from the manufacturer because of Der Fuerers proclamations related to their bailout. Now I have to go 20 miles to get parts from the closest dealer. I also did maybe $4000-$5000 worth of work for them a month, so it hit me hard too.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: " The government did not force GM into bankruptcy. "
Giving them ultimatums was the same thing. .....Do this or else we dont give you bailout money.... The govenment directly was responsible for many profitable dealers getting closed down and thier employees going to the unemployment lines. If you dont believe that, you drank Obumas Kool-aid too. I personally know a few local dealers who were closed completely by the bailouts. One had been in business for over 100 years and opened as a family business selling Conestoga Covered Wagons in the 1800s. They were doing just fine selling the number of cars they wanted to. They were told by Chrysler Corp they would get no more new Dodge vehicles from the manufacturer because of Der Fuerers proclamations related to their bailout. Now I have to go 20 miles to get parts from the closest dealer. I also did maybe $4000-$5000 worth of work for them a month, so it hit me hard too.
The Gov't should have never bailed out GM or Chrysler, and shouldn't have given 25 billion to Ford in DOE loans, either.
Businesses that make bad decisions should fail. There is no such thing as "too big to fail."
The only people responsible for dealers closing, are those dealers and the manufacturers they are dealing for. Blaming Obama is just stupid. He has had almost nothing to do with the bailouts. They were started under Bush's time in office, and were all managed by Congress. The only thing the President had to do was sign or not sign legislature.
If you want to ***** about Obama, at least pick something worth bitching about, like war crimes being committed with drone attacks, extensive spying of US citizens, indefinite detainment, etc… and do it in TO/T where it belongs. It doesn't have anything to do with Fieros. The Fiero got cut from the lineup over 25 years ago. Obama had nothing to do with it.
....repeating myself....from the words of that dealers owner directly to my face...
They were doing just fine selling the number of cars they wanted to. They were told by Chrysler Corp they would get no more new Dodge vehicles from the manufacturer because of Der Fuehrer's proclamations related to their bailout
How do you know he didnt have anything to do with Fieros demise ? He was old enough and he was born a citizen right ? He is SOOOOOOO bad at everything, I wouldnt put anything bad thats happened in last 25 years out of reach of his meddling.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 10-28-2013).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: ....repeating myself....from the words of that dealers owner directly to my face...
They were doing just fine selling the number of cars they wanted to. They were told by Chrysler Corp they would get no more new Dodge vehicles from the manufacturer because of Der Fuehrer's proclamations related to their bailout
How do you know he didnt have anything to do with Fieros demise ? He was old enough and he was born a citizen right ? He is SOOOOOOO bad at everything, I wouldnt put anything bad thats happened in last 25 years out of reach of his meddling.
What does Hitler have to do with anything. You are an idiot. You are praising the government for keeping Chrysler around at all, and in the same sentence, blaming the President (who had almost nothing to do with any bailouts, be they car makers or banks), for your own personal problems.
Repeating myself… local conservative republican dealership franchise owners blaming the black guy for their problems, isn't uncommon, and is exactly all that is. If it wasn't for the bailout, there'd be no Chrysler left at all, and where do think those dealership owners would be then? Sure as hell not selling Chryslers, Dodges, or Jeeps, that's for sure. If you want to talk politics, take it to TO/T where it belongs. It's nothing to do with the Fiero.
Like I said in the OT thread - Pontiac or Saturn could've made a US version of this, and I would place an order the moment I heard they'd be available.
There may be plans to bring this in as a Buick in the near future. Beware though the sales of the Fiat 500 have not lived up to what was expected long term and the dealers are not happy. This could affect this Adam if the little cars do not sell. The IQ at Toyota is also going away.
GM said they had not plans but that means little as they have said the same on the Colorado and a few other models too. Keep in mind anything Pontiac could have had will be in the Chevy and Buick line up at some point. They are far from fully rebuilding yet and we have many new models to come.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-28-2013).]
Pontiac actually spoiled it's own brand by badging a full range of cars as a Pontiac it should have been dedicated to muscle not commuting family hatchbacks wagons and the range.
Funny how someone not even in North America has a better understanding of what some of the problems were than many who live here. Keep up the keen insight.
It matters little who was in office as who ever was would have helped and the opposing side would have countered what they did.
As to what the government demands were there were little to no major changes other than who was in charge as they did force out Rick. As for product the government really did not get involved here and if they did do you think they would be building all the trucks and large SUV's. Both sides have made it clear the products were left to the companies and if that were not true someone that was let go would have already talked. You know no one keeps secrets when they are pissed off.
As for Obama one of the things he did get right was to bail them out but as I said no matter who was in office they would have done the same. No President could have handled the job losses that would have happened with the economic down turn. Also he had nothing to do with the Fiero there is enough major issues going on you do not have to make this one up. If you want to nail on him you have enough ammo with all the scandals that are in play now and according to the White House he was never told about Libya, NSA taps, IRS, Health Care sign up failures etc. He either is lying or he is so out of touch with those that are working for him that he has lot to answer for. I find it very concerning that so many real issues are in play and the leader of the country had no idea of any of them and on top of that he will always look into them but never holds anyone accountable or removes them.
Pontiac actually spoiled it's own brand by badging a full range of cars as a Pontiac it should have been dedicated to muscle not commuting family hatchbacks wagons and the range.
Yup, that was really the issue. Now, I have no problem with them having hatchback wagons, etc..... as long as they were true pontiacs. But they were just the same as every other GM vehicle, except for the badge. I usually owned Pontiacs, and that was because they came with more features than Chevys. Well, that is pretty much not an issue, as you can load up a Chevy, and most base models come with nice options anyway. We are not talking about manual windows and no AC in a chevy vs power windows and ac in a pontiac. Those days are gone. Pontiac's time was limited. They should have kept the line for a special group of cars, but when your back was against the wall and you needed to increase quality, and sales... sometimes you have to trim the product line to get focused (yeah.. Focus is a Ford)
