Why are you comparing crank HP ratings? Are you asking about faster than 90% of the cars? Or more HP than 90% of the cars? 140 HP also isn't a low figure for modern cars. Chevy Cruze is ~138 HP and about 2900 lbs. Sonic is about the same HP, and a bit lighter. Not sure how much the Spark has, but probably around the same. Honda Fit is right around there as well, as is the Civic and CRZ. Plenty of other small cars are equally as unpowerful.
I'm not really comparing HP ratings. Just throwing that out there. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that newer cars have the combination of weight, horsepower, torque, and suspension that makes them comparable if not outright BETTER performers than a Fiero GT. None of us can deny that the Fiero is a parts bin car that was marketed as a commuter. When it has serviceable suspension bushings and a good alignment, it corners like a sports car. It does not accellerate or brake like a sports car without upgrades.
I guess it is difficult to put a percentage number on a stat and say that is where I want to be. To put it in simple terms, if I were challenged and chose to act on it, I would not want to be embarrassed. I'm no street racer and I have no interest in such things but it is nice to have great passing power when you need it. How many times have you needed to pass some idiot and when you try, they gun it? In most cases, that is the end of the stock Fiero's campaign for lead vehicle status. I want the option to put him in my rearview mirror safely, and without much effort. Usually, a little show of power like that will deter him from further road-hogery.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 11-06-2013).]
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I guess it is difficult to put a percentage number on a stat and say that is where I want to be. To put it in simple terms, if I were challenged and chose to act on it, I would not want to be embarrassed. I'm no street racer and I have no interest in such things but it is nice to have great passing power when you need it. How many times have you needed to pass some idiot and when you try, they gun it? In most cases, that is the end of the stock Fiero's campaign for lead vehicle status. I want the option to put him in my rearview mirror safely, and without much effort. Usually, a little show of power like that will deter him from further road-hogery.
In most cases, it usually happens that the idiot guns it when I go to pass, and there's a car in the other lane that I just switched into to pass, so 150, 300, or 600 HP isn't going to matter. I'm going to have to hit the brakes to avoid ramming the person in front of me. And all too often, the person in front wants to be an idiot and slow down too.
If you don't want to be embarrassed, then ignore the idiots trying to challenge you on the road. You don't know what they have, so even if you do swap in a 3800 and turbo it, there's a chance they've got something as well. And only idiots drive around "challenging" others on public roads to race them. Plus, you never know when a cop might be nearby, waiting for that idiot to challenge someone, so he can nail two cars at once for racing. And if some idiot is generally being an idiot on the road, you blowing by isn't going to deter that idiot from continuing to be an idiot.
That said, it's been extremely rare that I've had any trouble passing someone in my stock Fiero GT.
I'm still kicking around the idea of selling all my Fiero stuff and picking up a Porsche 997 GT2. I found a 2008 that is in my budget.....but I think I still want to keep one of my Fieros though. Dave
Not a 997, but I gotta believe a 996 is up there for cheapest+fastest. That car had its issues, but it was and is still a great performer, These days, they're cheap. Used Corvette cheap.
Personally, I'm not convinced that a stock Fiero of any year is Top 10% of fastest cars on the road. 27 million cars really starts crumbling when you've got to beat out - really - any exotic (Ferrari, Lambo, etc.) ever made, most semi-exotics from mid '80s onwards (Porsches, Corvettes), most of the sportier Europeans from the '80s onwards, surely all the sportier Asian entries from the '90s onwards (MR2s, Supras, Zs), all the pony cars from the '90s onwards, and probably a significant part of all cars made in the last 10 years. Modern cars are very good, even the bad ones would be able to handle most '80s cars. Consider BMW has sold over two million 3-series in the past fifteen years, and ANY >E36 3er is an easy Fiero beater. GM has sold about six million Corvettes in the past fifteen years. All of them are Fiero beaters. Granted, not all of those cars are still on the road, but a good many of them are - especially the Corvettes. Even if half of them are dead, that's four million Fiero beating cars in just two models from two brands.
I really dig my Fiero, but it's honestly one of the slowest cars in my driveway. Sure, they can be pumped up with engine swaps and brake upgrades and all that, but so can any car. My 1985 Saab has schooled a number of more recent, more expensive cars at Infineon, Thunderhill, and Buttonwillow - and it's got a quarter of a million miles and I'm honestly not that great of a driver! A little boost, a little intercooler, sticky tires, nice shocks - $5,000 competition for $40,000 cars.
My top five cars that are the intersection of fast and cheap:
1. Porsche 996 - $25k, 0-60 in <5s, quarter mile in the mid 13s, .9x g 2. Corvette C5 Z06 or C6 - $25k, 0-60 in <5s, quarter mile in the low 13s, .9x g 3. Lotus Elise - $25k, 0-60 <6s, quarter mile in the high 13s, >1 g 4. Nissan 350Z - $15k, 0-60 <6s, quarter mile in the high 13s, ,9x g 5. Mitsubishi Lancer EVO IX - $20k, 0-60 in <4.5s, quarter mile in the low 13s, .9x g
Of course, for $15k-$25k you could probably build a killer Fiero, or M3, or S4, or F-Body, or Toyota Camry ffs... but these are cars you can pick up of Craigslist and go whale on virtually anything on the road or the track. There just aren't a lot of cars that turn in better numbers than these, period. There's not a lot of room to physically do it!
FWIW, #5 there is the giant killer. The Evo is a weapon, pure and simple. Bone stock it will keep pace with 99% of production cars. With a few upgrades, it'll demolish them and take multi six figure cars, no worries. Tires and boost will push it to 60 in under four seconds, get you into the 12s, and approach or exceed 1g on the skidpad. If you want to go ridiculously fast for not a lot of coin, buy an Evo.
Originally posted by cam-a-lot: Being faster than the next guy really means nothing..
This summer I had some kids riding my ass. I gladly pulled over & let them pass me. I didn't put all of this work into this thing to wreck it trying to show off.
Originally posted by thesameguy: Personally, I'm not convinced that a stock Fiero of any year is Top 10% of fastest cars on the road. 27 million cars really starts crumbling when you've got to beat out - really - any exotic (Ferrari, Lambo, etc.) ever made, most semi-exotics from mid '80s onwards (Porsches, Corvettes), most of the sportier Europeans from the '80s onwards, surely all the sportier Asian entries from the '90s onwards (MR2s, Supras, Zs), all the pony cars from the '90s onwards, and probably a significant part of all cars made in the last 10 years.
That 27 million is 10% of only cars registered in the US. If you're going to include "any" car ever made, it's going to be a hell of a lot more than 27 million. And don't overstimate the performance of many of those cars. A lot of them are sporty, but they're not particularly fast and don't handle that well. Yeah, a worn out Fiero with sloppy bushings is going to have problems, but so is a worn out Ferrari. Not that the 80s Ferraris were particularly fast, either.
The stock Fiero GT/Formula/2M6 might be right at the edge over 90%, but I'd bet if the full data was available, it would be there. 27 million is one hell of a lot of cars.
All can be built for under 100k and yet rival the performance of a Hennessey Venom GT, Veyron, Koenigsegg, SSC....Best part is they all share the same LS platform for power so getting power will be "Simple" on a budget.
Those are about as close as to "being faster than 90% of all cars on the road" with exceptions of 1000+TX2k cars, race cars and so on that you are going to get.
You can't get top notice performance from a regular production car without spending at least six figures or more..... Even if its a Nissan GTR, Corvette ZR1/Z06, Viper, Supra and so on.
[This message has been edited by VF1Skullangel (edited 11-07-2013).]
Originally posted by dobey:That 27 million is 10% of only cars registered in the US.
I know. The numbers I quoted were US sales, not worldwide sales. BMW has sold WAY more than 3m 3ers worldwide. I still don't buy the Fiero is 90th percentile, but if we're debating 90th and not 91st or 92nd, we're probably splitting hairs. As for Ferraris, my favorite kill story (how old am I? 16?) is a friendly race into the mountains against a 328GTS in the aforementioned Saab. No worries. But both of them would handily school a Fiero. *Any* '80s Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. is more than a match for a Fiero given both are stock, in equally well-maintained condition.
My Fiero is quite quick to 30 or 40mph - thanks to a mountain of torque and great launch characteristics - but there isn't much on the road I tangle with beyond that for fear of being embarrassed. Typical '80s American-think. In the Jag, Saab, XR4Ti , Audi - yep, I'm going to assert myself in that merge and there isn't much most other cars on the road can do about that. In the Fiero, I'm going to fit where I fit. So, Boostdreamer, I sympathize with your plight. But, I'd offer you this - like others have said, no matter how many cars you get in front of, you're still going to ultimately find yourself stuck behind the same Camry everyone else is. Fighting for position on the road is fun in the moment, but it's not going to win you anything. Unless you earn points with your gas card, and then you'll be earning a lot of points. Trust.
What the V6 Fiero brings to the table even in its stock form is a pretty fantastic combination of low-speed responsiveness, fit anywhere size, and go-kart proportions that make you feel like a race car driver when you're still doing the speed limit. My XR4Ti makes more than double the Fiero's power and weighs the same or less (I tend to add lightness) but I'm already well in excess of the speed limit in 3rd gear and everything it can do can't be done on public roads, except making cool turbo sounds at people. As the saying goes, it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow - and with 300-400hp on tap everything feels slow. That is, quite literally, why I bought the Fiero. When I do my daily commute, I more or less always grab the FIero keys. I think it accomplishes GM's original mission with aplomb - it's a kickass commuter. (Frustrates the crap out of my boss when we go to lunch, though - "You bought that nice Jaguar and you make me ride around in this!" Yes. Yes I do. Because it's awesome.)
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 11-07-2013).]
Truthfully, a stock Fiero isn't really competitive with many modern cars from 0-60, or in the 1/4 mile. My wife's '11 VW Golf 2.5L (cheapest and most basic VW sold in the US) has 177 ft-lbs of torque, 170 HP and hits 0-60 in just under 7 and a half seconds. A new Chevy Malibu can do 0-60 in about 7 and a half seconds. When new, an '88 Fiero GT took a bit over 8 and half seconds to hit 60 mph. The cars I listed are average cars sold in America, and the Fiero can't keep up. Sure there are slower cars, but I would be willing to bet the Golf and Malibu are better sellers than the Honda Fit and other cars in its class.
Someone else mentioned 300 WHP from the Mazda Speed 3, but that's not true. According to Mazda's own website, the Speed 3 has 263 HP at the flywheel. Sure, it's a great performer at its price, but let's be honest when we're bench racing.
Originally posted by thesameguy: I know. The numbers I quoted were US sales, not worldwide sales. BMW has sold WAY more than 3m 3ers worldwide. I still don't buy the Fiero is 90th percentile, but if we're debating 90th and not 91st or 92nd, we're probably splitting hairs. As for Ferraris, my favorite kill story (how old am I? 16?) is a friendly race into the mountains against a 328GTS in the aforementioned Saab. No worries. But both of them would handily school a Fiero. *Any* '80s Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. is more than a match for a Fiero given both are stock, in equally well-maintained condition.
Any single car might be, but comparing two cars doesn't make a top 10% number. There is always something faster out there, and there will be someone better at driving who can maybe embarrass you, even if they're in a somewhat slower car.
Then there's the complete lack of data in this thread. Those 27+ million cars that are the top 10% for performance on the road in the US, aren't going to be what you might think they are. And a lot of those older cars have been lost, buried, wrecked, crushed, or worse. All the ones that were produced or sold, aren't out there. The only way to say for certain what that top 10% is, would be to get a list of all registered vehicles in the US, get all the weight, gearing, and factory power/performance specs (including dyno, skid pad, slalom, and braking data), and come up with a comprehensive list. And it'd still be a guess as to what falls where, given the number of modifications available and in use, and the complete lack of any documentation in the vehicle registration process as to what modifications are installed.
Some of these cars are extremely rare for a reason. ALL (not sure if the production numbers I found are USDM only or worldwide) new Nissan GT-Rs produced in the last 6 years is about 3.5 thousandths of a percent of all registered vehicles in the US. You could probably lump all the exotics registered in the US, and it could still be less than the top 1%. And most of those are probably only Jay Leno, where he has to pay someone else to drive them just so they don't fall apart sitting in his garage/museum doing nothing.
Well, the best selling car in America is the Toyota Camry (which is why you're always stuck behind one). Even in its cheapest four cylinder version it packs 178hp and 170lb ft and scoots to 60 in under 7 seconds...
Originally posted by dobey:Then there's the complete lack of data in this thread. Those 27+ million cars that are the top 10% for performance on the road in the US, aren't going to be what you might think they are. And a lot of those older cars have been lost, buried, wrecked, crushed, or worse. All the ones that were produced or sold, aren't out there. The only way to say for certain what that top 10% is, would be to get a list of all registered vehicles in the US, get all the weight, gearing, and factory power/performance specs (including dyno, skid pad, slalom, and braking data), and come up with a comprehensive list. And it'd still be a guess as to what falls where, given the number of modifications available and in use, and the complete lack of any documentation in the vehicle registration process as to what modifications are installed.
I suppose you can defend a car with an 8.5 0-60, a 16 second quarter mile, an .8x skidpad, and a 60-0 of ~120 ft however you'd like, but I'd encourage you to pick up a few magazines from the last ten years and start making a list of cars that are actually slower than this. Hint: A 2013 Suburban can do most of this. About the only cars you'll find that cannot are the true econoboxes - base model Aveos, Civics, Accents, etc. The bulk of cars sold in America - mid size sedans - have been knocking out 7.x second 0-60 runs, 15 second quarter miles, .8x skidpads, and sub-120' 60-0 distances since the late '90s or early '00s. I assure you that of the 27+ million cars still registered, the vast majority of them are Camrys, Accords, Fusions, and Impalas and each and every one of them turns in demonstrably better numbers than a Fiero. So do most of the minivans, for that matter. 8.6/16s/.8x/120' haven't been "quick" for 20 years. I wouldn't race my mom's 4-cylinder Fusion for pinks.
Originally posted by thesameguy: I suppose you can defend a car with an 8.5 0-60, a 16 second quarter mile, an .8x skidpad, and a 60-0 of ~120 ft however you'd like, but I'd encourage you to pick up a few magazines from the last ten years and start making a list of cars that are actually slower than this. Hint: A 2013 Suburban can do most of this. About the only cars you'll find that cannot are the true econoboxes - base model Aveos, Civics, Accents, etc. The bulk of cars sold in America - mid size sedans - have been knocking out 7.x second 0-60 runs, 15 second quarter miles, .8x skidpads, and sub-120' 60-0 distances since the late '90s or early '00s. I assure you that of the 27+ million cars still registered, the vast majority of them are Camrys, Accords, Fusions, and Impalas and each and every one of them turns in demonstrably better numbers than a Fiero. So do most of the minivans, for that matter. 8.6/16s/.8x/120' haven't been "quick" for 20 years. I wouldn't race my mom's 4-cylinder Fusion for pinks.
I'm not defending the car. But this is a forum about that car, not about Nissans or whatever. And it isn't a thread about sales numbers for different manufacturers over the last 10 years. And there are 270 million cars registered, not 27 million. The 27 million was the 10%.
But obviously nobody on this forum actually cares about FIeros any more. So just go buy a Miata, drop an LS1 in it, and call it a day.
But obviously nobody on this forum actually cares about FIeros any more. So just go buy a Miata, drop an LS1 in it, and call it a day.
I wouldn't say no one here cares about the Fiero, in fact, most of us are obsessed with the little cars. What I will say is some of us are being realistic. Is the Fiero fun to drive? Absolutely. Is its performance in the top 10% of cars on the road in the US? Absolutely NOT. It was an above average performer when it was new in the '80s, but there were many cars that outperformed it, even then. The "average" performance of a car has improved drastically since the '80s. Look at the Camaro, its top of the line IROC-Z in '86 only had 215 HP, a base Camaro now has a 323 HP V6. As much as I love Fieros, I have to be realistic and say that their average '80s performance just doesn't cut it when compared to most cars built this century.
Yes, this is a Fiero forum, but when someone asks if the Fiero's performance is in the top 10% of all cars on the road don't get butthurt when someone truthfully answers no.
Originally posted by aircraft_electrician: Is its performance in the top 10% of cars on the road in the US? Absolutely NOT.
Yes, this is a Fiero forum, but when someone asks if the Fiero's performance is in the top 10% of all cars on the road don't get butthurt when someone truthfully answers no.
Then why are you and others getting so "butthurt" as you put it, when someone says it probably is?
Since you're so certain it isn't in the top 10% of all cars in the road in the US in terms of performance, do you have the absolute data to show it isn't? Because you're so certain about it, surely you must have that data?
And why do you have to come up with homophobic insults to try and argue with people on the Internet, when you disagree with them? We all know the Fiero isn't an Enzo. But it's not a Kei car either. Is it really so hard to think that possibly, just maybe, an 88 Formula could be near the bottom of the list of the 27 MILLION most performant (with the assumption of stock trim) cars registered for road use in the entire United States?
Including possible mods, I can guarantee that there's a few Fieros in that top 10%, already. There are a few 10 second 3800 cars out there, and plenty of Fieros with 400+ HP rolling around, with the LS3 swap from Archie. Not to mention a supercharged LS7. Not quite the 10,000 GT-Rs that might be rolling round, but you only need to be one in 27,000,000,000 to make that list.
I think we all agree that a 3800 S/C powered Fiero with a little attention to the brakes and suspension IS IN THE TOP 10% but as far a I read the conversation switched to "Production cars" and NOTHING from the 1980's would be in the top 10% today Hell a 1991 ZR1 can't hang with today's top 10%
I'm not sure what the bickering is about.
[This message has been edited by 1fast2m4 (edited 11-07-2013).]
I owe you an apology. I'm sorry if my "butthurt" comment came across as a "homophobic insult." I didn't intend it as such, it's a common term used in the military to describe someone that's worked up about something. Sometimes I forget terms commonly used in the military can be offensive and I truly did not mean to offend.
However, I did give data that supports my argument. I listed the HP numbers and 0-60 times of VW's cheapest car sold in the US, and the 0-60 time of one of Chevy's most common cars, the Malibu. Both of these are average performers, not even close to top 10%. I listed the HP rating for the bottom of the line Camaro.
The bottom line is the Fiero cannot compete with average cars built in the last 10 years. If it's not even average, how can it possibly be in the top 10 percent? Yes, a Fiero has the potential to be in the top 10%, but not without modifications, usually not inexpensive modifications. The original poster asked about the cheapest way to get a car faster than 90% of cars on the road in the US, and to get a Fiero into that category of performance is not going to be cheap.
My daily driver is an 86 GT. It is my fifth Fiero and I haven't sold any. I guess I still care about Fieros. All but one of my Fieros came with a V6 and I swapped a V6 into that one. I know what I'm talking about when I say that stock Fieros struggle to compete with average modern vehicles except in the handling department.
The topic was to have a very good all around performer on a shoestring budget. I think we would agree that the Fiero is capable of filling that role with a 3800SC, an 88 cradle, and a Grand Am caliper/S10 booster brake upgrade. A combo like that could come in as cheaply as being under $4000.
$500 Fiero with blown engine $800 3800SC $1000 engine swap costs (may be low, don't really know) $250 88 Cradle $300 Coilovers and cradle adaptors kit $150 S10 booster $250 Grand Am brakes (again, just a guess, no real idea) $500 Tires _____________________________________________ $3750 Total for this list
Even if I'm 100% off, that would still put you in a very potent car for under $8000. Throw in $2000 for paint and you'll look good while passing cars costing 5 times as much.
IMO the Fiero wins by default, even if it isn't the fastest thing out there. It was made 5 years, and no mid-engine car (outside the Ford GT) has been built since.
Handling upgrades are available, and even "stock" (I believe aftermarket sway bars, poly rear bushings and I believe fronts as well), I have yet to see anyone around here that will take a curve as confidently. Sure there are cars out there that out-handle it, but it's dang flat in the corners (aside from the understeer) for an otherwise stock car.
Powerplant isn't much of an issue, since so many have been swapped into the F'ros. I have yet to have mine at a track, but it feels very spritely for a 26 year old car with over 157,000 miles. One person comes to mind that I've seen a handful of times, and every time has tried to race me & failed. He drives a 2000-something G6 coupe, looks identical to this (doubt it's a GTP, there are no badges on it): It has a very loud exhaust, so it's clear what kind of rpm it's turning. I know it's no sports car, but for a 20 year age difference, I'd say it's not too shabby... and this is out of a stock Fiero.
I also know it surely won't average it with a swap (unless I drive it 'normally' around town), but my last tank netted around 27mpg (about 325mi to just over 12 gallons), and I don't drive like Grandma if you know what I'm saying... all but about 10 miles was in-town driving also, with a lot of stop lights.
In all honesty, all the Fiero needs to really hang with most of the would-be racers out there (personally I'm taking it this is what it's more geared towards) is some more power, which isn't much of an issue to swap in... and a little love to the suspension.
I think we all agree that a 3800 S/C powered Fiero with a little attention to the brakes and suspension IS IN THE TOP 10% but as far a I read the conversation switched to "Production cars" and NOTHING from the 1980's would be in the top 10% today Hell a 1991 ZR1 can't hang with today's top 10%
I'm not sure what the bickering is about.
Because the question was about the top 10% of cars on the road, not the top 10% of cars made in the last 3 years. There's a huge difference between the two. The latter results in a few thousand. The former is a number of vehicles that is greater than the population of most states in the union.
Originally posted by aircraft_electrician: However, I did give data that supports my argument. I listed the HP numbers and 0-60 times of VW's cheapest car sold in the US, and the 0-60 time of one of Chevy's most common cars, the Malibu. Both of these are average performers, not even close to top 10%. I listed the HP rating for the bottom of the line Camaro.
Those numbers don't exactly support your arguments. HP ratings are almost entirely irrelevant. As I stated in a previous post, you need to compare torque curve (the entire curve, not just the peak number), weight, gear ratios (including final drive and tire size), along with a lot of measured performance data beyond just 0-60 times. You also need the number of vehicles currently registered for road use in the US, for each vehicle and any variances in the model (because they all have lots of different options). The numbers you stated are for a single vehicle. I think you're underestimating just exactly how many cars there are out there; or how many people just don't take care of their cars and drive around crap that is literally falling apart and wouldn't stand a chance against a cared for Fiero, even if it was a faster car when it rolled off the lot. Not to mention most people are not exactly great drivers.
What I said in my original post was that the Fiero was probably right at the cutoff point of the 10%; whether it is above or below 90% is irrelevant. I never said it was definitely in the top 10%. I said it was probably very near it, if not in it. And probably is exactly what I meant. Apparently some people can't read very well, and that apparently annoyed them, to think that a Fiero might be semi respectable.
The simple fact is, just hopping in a car and pressing the gas, you're probably going to be faster than 90% of the other cars on the road, because they're horrible drivers, and are driving cars that have been beat to death.
What OP should have said is "what's the cheapest way to get my Fiero to be faster than the 10% of drivers on the road who are total asshats?"
Then the answer is pretty obvious, and we wouldn't be having people making silly comments like "there's no way a Fiero is faster than a brand new off the lot 2014 Camry, the best selling car in America!" Which is most of the Camrys I see on the road aren't new models, but older ones. And best selling in America isn't saying a whole lot, given new car sales are down across the board, and most of those Camrys are going to fleet sales as rentals and such, possibly more so now that Pontiac is gone, as rental fleets were a bit more balanced between Pontiac and Toyota than they would be now. Not to mention the insane recall Toyota just had for them, due to a chip that could fault and result in the throttle sticking. Side effects may include death.
Cheaper to stick on some air scoops, a bi-level wing, lower it 3", put on 20" wheels with foot wide tires, and $50 worth of performance stickers....oh wait ricers already do all that....
If you don't want to be embarrassed, then ignore the idiots trying to challenge you on the road. You don't know what they have, so even if you do swap in a 3800 and turbo it, there's a chance they've got something as well. And only idiots drive around "challenging" others on public roads to race them. Plus, you never know when a cop might be nearby, waiting for that idiot to challenge someone, so he can nail two cars at once for racing. And if some idiot is generally being an idiot on the road, you blowing by isn't going to deter that idiot from continuing to be an idiot.
Best post yet! Racing for whatever reason on a public road instead of a track is retarded, dangerous, and a sure sign of a person desperate for attention to mask his insecurities.
Passing isn't racing. Racing is not what it is about.
Passing is a part of everyday driving. Your window to make that pass is variable. More often than not, I would feel safer and more confident with more power than the stock 2.8 provides.
I've never driven in Canada and I don't know what it's like where dobey lives but it sounds like from your posts, the only traffic you guys have to deal with are the local farmers hauling their produce to market by horse and wagon. I have done a bunch of driving in South Florida and around Houston, TX and before that, I thought Tennessee drivers were aggressive. Now, not so much.
The driving style in those areas could easily be called street racing in calmer cities. I guess it is what you are exposed to and used to. Your needs may be completely different than the needs of a driver in another community. Like I said, I'm on my 5th Fiero and I have never thought of them as fast. Fun, yes. Fast, no. Top 10% fast? No way.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Passing isn't racing. Racing is not what it is about.
Passing is a part of everyday driving. Your window to make that pass is variable. More often than not, I would feel safer and more confident with more power than the stock 2.8 provides.
I've never driven in Canada and I don't know what it's like where dobey lives but it sounds like from your posts, the only traffic you guys have to deal with are the local farmers hauling their produce to market by horse and wagon. I have done a bunch of driving in South Florida and around Houston, TX and before that, I thought Tennessee drivers were aggressive. Now, not so much.
The driving style in those areas could easily be called street racing in calmer cities. I guess it is what you are exposed to and used to. Your needs may be completely different than the needs of a driver in another community. Like I said, I'm on my 5th Fiero and I have never thought of them as fast. Fun, yes. Fast, no. Top 10% fast? No way.
If you're exceeding the speed limit, and the other guy speeds up to match you in passing, and you get pulled over, what do you think the cop is going to call it? He saw you two racing. Whether you were doing 150, or 80, if you are both trying to pass each other and matching speed, it is racing. Doesn't have to be at 1 AM. You will see racing and reckless endangerment.
And I live on the East coast, and have for some time. It's the same insanity down here in Southern VA as it was when I was in Boston. There is too much traffic, and too many overly aggressive drivers. It might actually be worse here, with a lot of young military people, and a lot of college kids, and people who aren't from the area. But every time I drive, just to go get lunch down the street even, I see and have to deal with idiots on the road who don't know how to drive, or understand that the speed limit drops from 45 to 35 and then to 25 further down the road. I'd have to drive an hour west to find those "country" roads.
I don't know where you live, but it sounds like from your posts everyone has a GT-R, Ferrari, or ZR-1.
What are the chances we can drop "street racing" from the conversation? Let's just assume from this point on that everyone here is a very skilled, courteous, experienced, safe driver.
With that said, and that in mind, there are still frequent situations where you need more passing power than the 2.8 has to offer. In those situations, it is better and safer to make your pass quickly rather than slowly. You don't want to scream past someone and startle them and you don't want make them track you over their left shoulder for five minutes while you inch past them.
I believe that horsepower in a car can be described in the same way an umbrella is: It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
As for drivers in Virgina, they are among the worst I have ever encountered. Of course that could be a result of the excessive law enforcement element on the highways there. IMO
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: What are the chances we can drop "street racing" from the conversation? Let's just assume from this point on that everyone here is a very skilled, courteous, experienced, safe driver.
I believe that horsepower in a car can be described in the same way an umbrella is: It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Can we also stop talking about horsepower then? It's a very useless number if you're talking about the power to overtake another car on the road, in a certain gear. Horsepower is a function of RPM, and if you have an engine which can continually rev higher, without making 0 torque, you can make horsepower. The 2.8 does fall short after ~4300 RPM, yes, but that is generally made up for in gearing. If you're in a manual car and try to pass someone without downshifting, and that person is in an automatic and floors it to box you out, then they are probably going to win, even in the exact same car, because the trans will drop to a lower gear for them where they are applying more power to the road.
If the answer is simply you want more torque and you want to keep driving the Fiero and have more torque in a broader range in more gears, then this thread ended on the first page when it was suggested to swap in a 3800. If the answer is you are looking for a car other than a Fiero, then it's off topic for the forum, because this is Pennock's Fiero Forum.
Given that you want to stick with the Fiero, then you and I, and pretty much everyone else on the forum already knows the answer. Throw in a 3800 swap, maybe lightly modded if you wish, with larger brakes, refreshed suspension and bump steer fix if on a pre-88, and call it a day. There's really nothing left to discuss. The 3800SC is the cheapest and best way to get a broad torque range with 250+ ft-lbs of torque at peak.
If passing speed only is the measure - and we're not talking about slalom times or braking distances or anything else - I'd offer up the notion that you don't really need a lot of power, what you want is a lot of midrange torque. Both will ultimately get you what you want, but for example my Celica makes relatively little torque and ALL passing requires dropping two three gears to get the revs up, whereas with my Saab or XR4Ti it's just a matter of rolling into throttle a little. Back in the day, a turbo Saab offered better 50-75 acceleration than a Ferrari Testarossa simply on the basis it could summon up 250lb ft of torque at any time without dropping gears. To that end, assuming it's not an emissions problem, I'd consider just turbo'ing your 2.8. A mild amount of boost would make a dramatic improvement on mid-range performance, and since we're not talking about big horsepower, you really don't have to worry so much about flow restrictions. Don't know, but I'd bet 5-8psi - which you can run without an intercooler - could yield a solid 50-80lb ft improvement in torque, and with a proper-sized turbo give it to you across a fairly wide swath of the rev range. One thing I really enjoy about the Fiero is the tall gearing (makes the most of the V6's torque), and turning 4th or 5th gear into very responsive ratios would be easy with boost. With a smallish turbo, you'd get that responsiveness and minimize or eliminate lag.
We don't have to talk about HP. Some people are offended by that concept. No need to step on any toes here!
So to sum thingns up, so far we have the option of upgrading the Fiero with better engine, brakes, and fresh suspension bits. That will get us to our goal of being able to run with modern cars and being able to walk away from most of them.
Does anybody know of another platform to begin with that could pull this off as cheaply as the Fiero? The whole thread is about options.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 11-08-2013).]
If passing speed only is the measure - and we're not talking about slalom times or braking distances or anything else - I'd offer up the notion that you don't really need a lot of power, what you want is a lot of midrange torque. Both will ultimately get you what you want, but for example my Celica makes relatively little torque and ALL passing requires dropping two three gears to get the revs up, whereas with my Saab or XR4Ti it's just a matter of rolling into throttle a little. Back in the day, a turbo Saab offered better 50-75 acceleration than a Ferrari Testarossa simply on the basis it could summon up 250lb ft of torque at any time without dropping gears. To that end, assuming it's not an emissions problem, I'd consider just turbo'ing your 2.8. A mild amount of boost would make a dramatic improvement on mid-range performance, and since we're not talking about big horsepower, you really don't have to worry so much about flow restrictions. Don't know, but I'd bet 5-8psi - which you can run without an intercooler - could yield a solid 50-80lb ft improvement in torque, and with a proper-sized turbo give it to you across a fairly wide swath of the rev range. One thing I really enjoy about the Fiero is the tall gearing (makes the most of the V6's torque), and turning 4th or 5th gear into very responsive ratios would be easy with boost. With a smallish turbo, you'd get that responsiveness and minimize or eliminate lag.
Not just passing speed. It is difficult to discuss "performance" without breaking it down into separate measureable parts and discussing it. Passing power was just the most recent tangent that the thread went off on. The original quest was for the cheapest path to a daily driver that performed better than 90% of all cars out there. Those numbers and groups have been picked apart so define it how you like. Currently, it appears that a Fiero with mods is the cheapest way to do this. All opinions and thoughts are welcome.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: dobey, you mad, bro?
We don't have to talk about HP. Some people are offended by that concept. No need to step on any toes here!
So to sum thingns up, so far we have the option of upgrading the Fiero with better engine, brakes, and fresh suspension bits. That will get us to our goal of being able to run with modern cars and being able to walk away from most of them.
Does anybody know of another platform to begin with that could pull this off as cheaply as the Fiero? The whole thread is about options.
Mad? No. I'm not making posts that start with comments like "you mad bro?" or "why you butthurt?"
I am a little tired of repeating the same stuff that people apparently refuse to comprehend because math is apparently too hard, though.
Is it really too much to ask to have a discussion on this forum, that is calm and sensible and doesn't involve people throwing around negative ratings for simple disagreements? Because I'm not seeing a thread about options. I'm seeing a thread about following the herd.
Cheap, High Performance, Comfortable. Pick two. There are plenty of platforms that you can build up for relatively cheap, into fairly fast and well performing cars, but they're also fairly lacking in the way of comfort features. The Fiero is one. Honda Civic and CRX are a couple more.
Mad? No. I'm not making posts that start with comments like "you mad bro?" or "why you butthurt?"
I am a little tired of repeating the same stuff that people apparently refuse to comprehend because math is apparently too hard, though.
Is it really too much to ask to have a discussion on this forum, that is calm and sensible and doesn't involve people throwing around negative ratings for simple disagreements? Because I'm not seeing a thread about options. I'm seeing a thread about following the herd.
Cheap, High Performance, Comfortable. Pick two. There are plenty of platforms that you can build up for relatively cheap, into fairly fast and well performing cars, but they're also fairly lacking in the way of comfort features. The Fiero is one. Honda Civic and CRX are a couple more.
Ok. Good deal. Sorry, I didn't know. You have an angry writing style. I didn't neg you but you DO come across as hostile. Maybe that was enough for somebody.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 11-08-2013).]
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Not just passing speed. It is difficult to discuss "performance" without breaking it down into separate measureable parts and discussing it. Passing power was just the most recent tangent that the thread went off on. The original quest was for the cheapest path to a daily driver that performed better than 90% of all cars out there. Those numbers and groups have been picked apart so define it how you like. Currently, it appears that a Fiero with mods is the cheapest way to do this. All opinions and thoughts are welcome.
Others may, and probably will, disagree, but as the owner of a lot of non-stock cars I would submit that you're not going to save money breaking into the 90th percentile with a built Fiero versus just buying something made in the last decade or so. I think your $3750 3800SC build price is *quite* low for that target, probably by half if not more. I just put $2,500 into suspension, brakes, wheels and tires on mine. No engine work. It's quite good now - not perfect, but good. I think in cornering and stopping it compares favorably to other cars I own. But it's not going to keep up with a V6 Camry, and might struggle with a 4 cylinder one. Based on some other '80s cars I own - a 250hp Saab and a 300hp Merkur - I would want to have a solid 260-280hp on tap in the Fiero to have the straight-line confidence you're looking for. That's not an $800 3800SC. I'd fully expect the build you're talking about - given you already own the car - is going to run in the $6,000-$7,000 range. At that price, you could buy an E36 M3 or a Subaru WRX or a Porsche Boxster or an Audi S4. I'm not saying this because I hate Fieros - I just spent with no regrets two and a half grand on mine - I'm just saying that if you're not made of money and you want the quickest, easiest, most reliable path to that 90th, buy, don't build. The reason to build - why I've got that Saab and Merkur (and Audi, and Volvo....) is because it's a damn interesting thing to do, and the feeling of driving the thing is more important than whether I'm doing it fast or slow.
Well, I have a $23K mile car, straight and rust free that I paid $250 for. I have a 3800SC with the matching factory auto HD trans that I got to drive then pull for $800. I have an 88 cradle that I think I remember paying $250 for that included links, axles, and calipers. I feel like I can make the harness, exhaust, and mounts. I would need computer help. I think I could bring it in under $8K.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Ok. Good deal. Sorry, I didn't know. You have an angry writing style. I didn't neg you but you DO come across as hostile. Maybe that was enough for somebody.
It's not angry. It's direct and technical. I guess some people prefer having all the BS mixed in.
A little boost, a little intercooler, sticky tires, nice shocks - $5,000 competition for $40,000 cars. 
