Okay... so on my way to church today to help with outreach, and to meet up with the guys Im friends with at a neighbor church in another city; this cop stuck in traffic decides to get out of the line he was in to go straight and follow me as I make a turn onto the main road my chuch is on.
He follows me for a good few minutes going past a few intersections staying away from my bumper, but I knew what was about to happen. So I turn into the parking lot where my church is, park in the middle of the lot, and start walking towards church.
The cop stops behind me almost passing by the rear of my car, and watched he me do this, as I also was watching him. and as soon as I look away he yells out "HEY" I look back and the lights are on. "HEY COME BACK HERE" I replied loud and clear saying "I dont have to" and continued walking towards church. The cop then jumps out of his car and runs upto me, and in a commanding tone tells me to go back to my car, and I questioned him as to the reason. "BECAUSE I SAID" and I replied and told him that "lawfully, I dont have to."
(people from church start paying attention because of how loud his mouth was and the tone of which he was commanding me, I had juat reached the door of my church when a pastor from a neighboring city pokes his head out to ask if everything is alright, then the cop commanded me to return to my vehicle and I asked "what I should do?" He says. "well try to talk with him and see what is going on" as I turned away from him he and one of his deciples followed him out to listen in)
The law enforcement officer went on to threaten me with "Do you want to be arrested for OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE?" In reply "How am I obstructing justice?" His answer was "I'm going to arrest you because you arent doing what I say" I asked him why I should even do what he says. and he tells me that I'm trying to flee from a traffic stop. I tell him that I was in observation of him the whole time, and if he wanted to stop me he should have followed procedure by lighting me up first since he had the time to do so earlier, and that lawfully he could not do a thing unless I submitted to him of which by law, in this situation I dont have to.
Anyways his one and only excuse for even pulling me over was that my tail lights had covers over them and were also tinted on my 86 GT (referring to the tail light lens covers and the blacked out pontiac lettering, and being delaminated, but I can see why he would think that) I told him that is how pontiac made them, and suggested him to even google it. because every UNMODIFIED fiero will have tail lights like mine. he then went on as if what I said was irrelevant and then he said that he will arrest me if I continue to disobey him /and argue. I told him "you wont arrest me" and he asked why I said that, and I said "because by law, you have no authority over me; in this situation you are overstepping your boundaries." I then told him if he wants my full co-operation then he will have to detain me first, I then put my hands out in front of me testing him in faith relying on what I've learned about florida traffic law and traffic stop procedures. he takes me up on that and pulls out some cuffs and takes a wrist and twists me around like he's done this thousands of times. with the cuff on my wrist but not clicked
He says "now you are going to do what I say, or do you want me to arrest you?" I said "go for it, I'm not afraid, call your supervisor, just as long as you choose to detain me first." and then he non-challantly released me, and I turned right back around to address him head on, and I said. "If you want my full co-operation, you will have to detain me first, I am not here to fight with you, but I will not submit myself to you when I, by law do not have to follow your instruction for you to wrongfully cite me, and if you have a problem with my failure to comply, then you can detain me, and you can call your supervisor. And if not, then you can wait until I come back out and get in my car when I'm finished here. But right now, I'm going to go to church" (focusing my eyes on, and reaching out with an arm to point directly to the door of my church)
a few seconds of silence goes by after I go back to maintain eye contact with the officer, in wait of an answer to the ultamatum i provided. his reply was "Alright... I can respect that" And I reach out to shake his hand as he looks down towards it, and instead of shaking my hand, he makes his way around me back to his car in defeat.
Pardon me for saying so but you are a complete jerk and a major a##-hole. What would of it hurt to be respectful and to cooperate?
the thing is, I was not going to let this officer and his totalitarian viewpoint and commanding tone intimidate me into submitting myself to him, wherein to all regards of the law I am within my right. and as a knowledgable citizen, I will exercise my rights accordingly.
ignorance of the law is foolish, and ignorance of ignorance is stupidity (what the traffic court judge told someone who didnt know the law, when they were trying to justify thier situation, when it was obvious they were guilty)
its foolish to not know the law in this country... especially when a nice percentage of the police here are using "gotcha tactics" to get in an easy citation to make thier quota. I've had to learn the hard way, what I know now.
@GeMs thank you for understanding the reasoning behind this post.
Not all law enforcement representatives are as personal as this one was, I have great respect for and actually acknowledge anyone/anybody that stays professional thoughout thier duties in thier individual lines of work.
it is because of these ignorant fools who dont know the law that our country is the way it is. and that is how the elitists want it. so they can maintain an easy and unopposed control.
Gotta love that, when you see that cop obviously tailing you. I've had it happen twice in past month, though they never seem to get me for anything even if it involves them following me into a parking lot for me to confirm them following me.
Though, I would have responded a little diffrently, remain respectful and mono tone, no need to get worked up or louder.
Would it have killed you to stop when he first asked? Sounds to me like you were being a d!ck just hoping to get a rise out of the cop. You didn't do anything brave by "standing up to him", you were just being a d!ck. Your actions may have been within your rights but that doesn't mean you can't cooperate with the guy.
Would it have killed you to stop when he first asked? Sounds to me like you were being a d!ck just hoping to get a rise out of the cop. You didn't do anything brave by "standing up to him", you were just being a d!ck. Your actions may have been within your rights but that doesn't mean you can't cooperate with the guy.
YOU don't get it... DO YOU? Police here prey on the ones who are not "self aware" (aka, the ignorant, stupid, and uneducated) and use tactics to get you to (if you aren't aware) unknowingly waive your rights! I AM AN AMERICAN, not a pushover. I may be nice and loving but when its time to get real, it will be hard to find another who is so blunt about the truth as I. and if that makes me out to what you view me as, then that is your problem, not mine.
And I can see that you and at the moment... one other who has posted on this thread see things for the face value. and I urge you and the other to re-evaluate your outlook. because of your ignorance, by the time an "I told you so" moment finds its way into both of your lives however direct or not, it will already be too late to effectively adapt, overcome, and move on for you.
[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 11-10-2013).]
I'm glad that you used your rights. I agree that so many others are oblivious to their rights, and the cops use their "power" to just bully others. Not all cops are that way though. I wish many people would study and know the 4th amendment.
------------------ 1984 White Fiero Sport Coupe (Juliet) in restoration https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089093.html 1988 Red Fiero Standard Coupe (Bella) in restoration 1990 Black Buick Reatta (Noir) 2002 White Chevy Impala base(Haylie)
You might be 100% right but the cop can still shoot you dead and get nothing more than paid administrative leave while the shooting is investigated and eventually upheld.
Me personally I have a dash cam so it's not just my word against the cop's. But in any case I'm going to comply with everything the cops says because "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride". So I win my case and not get shot, I guess you could say it was a good day.
Gotta love that, when you see that cop obviously tailing you. I've had it happen twice in past month, though they never seem to get me for anything even if it involves them following me into a parking lot for me to confirm them following me.
Homeland security has the technology (and already uses it) to read the plates seen on the dashcams recorded feed, and they have charted the streets you were on, which direction you were traveling and maybe even ultimately, where your destination is. (they already have your home address based on your plate registration.)
[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 11-10-2013).]
You might be 100% right but the cop can still shoot you dead and get nothing more than paid administrative leave while the shooting is investigated and eventually upheld.
Me personally I have a dash cam so it's not just my word against the cop's. But in any case I'm going to comply with everything the cops says because "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride". So I win my case and not get shot, I guess you could say it was a good day.
The thing is... I know where my soul is going after my body dies*
EDIT: Its been a great chat on this thread, and I've been honored to know there are others out there that share my understanding. I thank you for your support... and right now I'm going to bed, so I can enjoy my day off tomorrow.
[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 11-10-2013).]
to the OP you were in the right, and its good that you know the laws of your state. most people are TOO SPINELESS to uphold the law when officers overstep their boundaries, they seem to forget they are "to protect and serve" I'm glad you stood up for the principle in the matter, and it prevailed as the officer thought about it and then chose not to waste anymore time and the city's man power when he could be doing something more productive with his time.
The thing is... I know where my soul is going after my body dies*
EDIT: Its been a great chat on this thread, and I've been honored to know there are others out there that share my understanding. I thank you for your support... and right now I'm going to bed, so I can enjoy my day off tomorrow.
OK first of all, you should have just found out what the cop wanted, for all you know he may have just wanted to talk to you for something that had nothing to do with a traffic violation. I have actually been stopped by younger cops who just wanted to look at my Fiero, and 1 older one who had one when they were new.
of course I ain't in my 20s anymore or think that every cop is my enemy or friend, they are for the most part doing their job, for the most part. you could have been into your church and caused less of a scene by just stopping and finding out what he wanted in the beginning when he asked you the first time. I don't care what god you believe in, I really don't because I don't believe in any but if that's what you need great, but no matter what god it is, I would hope he wouldn't care if you were a few min late for church. and I don't care if you were the preacher for that morning.
if you had simply turned around and found out what he wanted in the first place you would have most likely gotten this solved in less time with less hassle and less drama. I have also had guns pointed in my face by cops so don't think I am taking his side, some are just idiots with guns and a badge, but many are just out there trying to do their job.
If you really did just want to defuse the situation all you had to do was when you saw the cop pull into the lot behind you ask him what he needed. or morning officer, is this your church to? sometimes a little honey can defuse a situation a lot quicker and safer than screaming.
just my thoughts as I have been stopped a few times in the last 40 years of driving all over the country with everything from 2 to 18 wheels.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Believe it or not I had the same sort of thing happen to me because the officer thought I had tinted the tail lights. He followed me for several blocks, when I pulled into a service station to gas up he pulled in behind me. In my case he and I both were much more diplomatic . As he approached me I simply said " What can I do for your?" He then said something like "Do you know it is a traffic offence to have your tail lights tinted?" I replied they are not tinted, they came from the factory like that in 1987. I told him to take a closer look and he will se that have not been tampered with. He came over and looked at them closely running his hand over them and was then satisfied that they had not been changed. I told him that I had a friend that had 3 of these cars and we could go to his house so he could see that they were stock items. He said that is not necessary and then asked a few questions about the car. We parted on good terms and shook hand as he left. I think that even if you think the officer is over stepping his authority you should still attempt to be non combative and courteous, you may need their service and it could be him that comes to your aid. Believe me they remember people that they think have been un cooperative. Funny thing was that I had a S&W 45 in a high ride holster under my long shirt tail and he never noticed it, yes I have a cancelled carry permit, I am also an NRA certified pistol instructor and NRA certified range safety officer. Just my 2cents.
Originally posted by jscott1: Me personally I have a dash cam so it's not just my word against the cop's. But in any case I'm going to comply with everything the cops says because "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride". So I win my case and not get shot, I guess you could say it was a good day.
Be careful with that. I was reading that in most states it is actually illegal to record a conversation with a police officer. I wonder why they passed that law...
quote
Originally posted by AL87: I then put my hands out in front of me testing him in faith relying on what I've learned about florida traffic law and traffic stop procedures. he takes me up on that and pulls out some cuffs and takes a wrist and twists me around like he's done this thousands of times. with the cuff on my wrist but not clicked
I agree that people need to stand up to cops, but keep in mind that the cop don't have to arrest you. He can take you into custody and detain you for up to 24 hours without charging you with a crime... All on suspicion of wrong doing. At 24 hours they have to charge you or release you. You may want to think about that before you lose a job while sitting in the pokey being detained...
I also feel that most cops are bullies and here in Ohio we have some of the worst. We have an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper running over a couple on a motorcycle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQDnqnn4mQY . He got a ticket for unassured clear distance (2 points on his license) and nothing else. He was driving over 80mph (speed limit 65mph) and looking down at his computer. He admits that he didn't even know what he hit until he backed up to find out... He is back on duty.
Or these two cops that were off duty and doing almost 150mph in a 65mph zone: http://www.dispatch.com/con...05/gahannacycle.html . They got a slap on the wrist. So did the cop who pulled them over. He turned off the audio recording when he found out they were cops. He actually let them go. It was the dash cam video that got them the tickets...
So, just make sure you are smarter and safer about how you go about it...
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
Even if you were in the right, and it sounds like you were, you might have a cop just waiting and watching you to get a chance to get revenge for being made a fool of in front of everybody.
There was nothing in the OP's story about any screaming.
The OP acknoledged the cop's "request".
If the cop had any intention other than official "business" he wouln't have turned the lights on. He also wouldn't have demanded that he return. He would have said "Can I ask you something about your car?"
If the cop had not been bullying, he would have shaken the OP's hand.
Bullys like that won't wait around for another chance to get schooled. They will move on to easier targets.
Sounds to me, from what we have heard at this point, is that he was respectful and knowledgeable and he stood up for himself and his rights. Nothing wrong with that on any day in America! My only caution is to do this while you can. It won't be America for much longer. You can see the influence right here on this thread.
Be careful with that. I was reading that in most states it is actually illegal to record a conversation with a police officer. I wonder why they passed that law...
Actually I think you got it backwards. Most states (38) are single consent meaning only one person needs to be aware that the conversation is being recorded. Although the wiretapping laws in this country are antiquated for the most part it's legal to record the happenings inside your own car. Most of these laws are written concerning telephone calls, and are ambiguous when it comes to newer technology that didn't exist when the laws were written. Considering that the police use them, I'm only exercising my right to use one as well. I'd rather take my chances with the cam, that without it.
Originally posted by AL87: I replied loud and clear saying "I dont have to"
Sorry to me that sounds like someone who doesn't want to be bothered or a child not getting his way.
sure some cops are bullies, most are not and I know a lot over my 5 decades of life. the lights were on the cruiser when you turned back to see what the cop wanted, showing that you were being stopped , to me anyway that's what that means, and that means you need to find out just what the cop wants. Don't do that and a simple traffic stop can turn into a fire fight. I don't like cops myself for the most part but you and I and all the rest of us have to at least do what is requested of you when you are stopped to a certain point and being a baby and saying "I dont have to" is not a good way to start a conversation with someone most seem to think are nothing but high school bullies who got a job with a gun.
Most aren't, some are but not most, but then I wouldn't know having only had to deal with just a hundred or more cops in states from Maine to Florida to Texas over my lifetime now would I. just how many have those of you who are saying they are mostly just bullies?
first of all until you start a conversation with the cop about why you are being stopped or asked to talk to him, and that's all this started out as now wasn't it, you really don't know what is going on now do you. for all this guy knew in the beginning the cop wanted to talk to him, if he had been just a tad more polite it might have turned out completely different now couldn't it. starting out with a chip on your shoulder with someone you have never met before is not a good way to start a conversation is all I'm trying to say.
I'm sorry that I even replied and started this. And I also think it needs to be taken OT.
First let me say I am sorry that I judged you. I was not there nor do I know what laws your state might have to gives you the rights you claim. I know many states do have laws to help protect you from "bad cops".
That said I still stand by my feeling. I do not understand how being respectful and courteous (and perhaps you were more so then the way I read your story) is giving up my rights. I have been harassed by police more then once for no reason at all. But never has it had to come to the point any kind conflict. And never did I have to parade my rights for me to prevail.
Pretty much this. Call me "ignorant" but being a little prick and walking away from a person with a gun who wants to talk to you doesn't seem like the best way to reach your golden years. As I said before, it sounds like it was in your rights to keep walking and not talk to him but what was the reason you did this? You still didn't answer that from my first post.
I'm sorry that I even replied and started this. And I also think it needs to be taken OT.
First let me say I am sorry that I judged you. I was not there nor do I know what laws your state might have to gives you the rights you claim. I know many states do have laws to help protect you from "bad cops".
That said I still stand by my feeling. I do not understand how being respectful and courteous (and perhaps you were more so then the way I read your story) is giving up my rights. I have been harassed by police more then once for no reason at all. But never has it had to come to the point any kind conflict. And never did I have to parade my rights for me to prevail.
Again, forgive me for judging you.
Hey man, I forgive you. theres a lot of feeling and emotion that is lost in translation reading over the interwebz...
Originally posted by fastblack: Pretty much this. Call me "ignorant" but being a little prick and walking away from a person with a gun who wants to talk to you doesn't seem like the best way to reach your golden years. As I said before, it sounds like it was in your rights to keep walking and not talk to him but what was the reason you did this? You still didn't answer that from my first post.
That was what I was thinking myself and it really didn't work out that well for this guy ether.
Homeland security has the technology (and already uses it) to read the plates seen on the dashcams recorded feed, and they have charted the steets you were on, which direction you were traveling and maybe even ultimately, where your destination is. (they already have your home address based on your plate registration.)
Homeland security does, but does your little peace of dirt in whatever state you live in have it already? see even here our local cops don't even have the ability to read the strip on the back of our licenses. the state police do but not the locals. and taking something for granted that the cops have something because the federal government does is not a good idea.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-10-2013).]
#1 if the cop wanted to just talk to me about my car, he wouldn't have turned his lights on. the unprofessional police here use underhanded tactics, and if I stayed I would have waived my legal right to avoid him.
#2 im sorry to say, but I have a feeling that the police who are "jerks" were the bullies in high school. and I pity them.
#3 I've had the police break into my home to seize me illegally and detain me... more than once. I don't mind being held in the pokey for 24 hours, been there done that, and will live through it. (it is a major annoyance though)
#4 I've had cops just keeping an eye out for me just waiting for me to slip up.
#5 you are right, the tough guys are in jail... the stupid ones***
#6 And I knew I would have gotten at least one ticket... (straight pipes, and 3 of my 4 tires bald, and "covered & tinted" tail lights)
EDIT: I just realized this was posted in the wrong section... even though it does include my fiero... its o/t because the fiero isn't the focus...
[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 11-10-2013).]
Homeland security does, but does your little peace of dirt in whatever state you live in have it already? see even here our local cops don't even have the ability to read the strip on the back of our licenses. the state police do but not the locals. and taking something for granted that the cops have something because the federal government does is not a good idea.
Steve
the homeland security orders that I was reading (when stuck in the back of a police car) was telling the cop to patrol a route along the main roads in circuit. and at the time I didn't know that homeland security intakes data on the plates in reference to who is going where. no further data was released as to why they do this though... makes me wonder...
Most cops are just trying to protect the public with one had tied behind their backs. Most are good but there are a few idiots in all things.
Second People in society are generally good but there is a larger segment of them that are as John Walsh states Scum.
The key to all this is both sides need to cut each other some slack and try to make a better society. I got pulled over when they were looking for a Felon in a car like mine. I co operated with the cop and he was very apologetic when it was over. I made his job easier and he was try to remove a piece of trash from the street to protect my family.
As for the plate scanners. They have been around for years. Most departments only have a car or two with them. They have the Cameras on the deck lid or the roof. While many fear these they show no fear for being dependent on government for income support or health care that controls you even more. On top of that they are working on these autonomous cars where they can control where you go and when you go. It is time for people to wake up as there is a massive take up in your rights of late and once they are gone you are not going to get them back.
The problem is not so much on the local officer level as he is only doing what he is told. The fear should be in the level of the Department of Justice etc. I have friends in the FBI that are not happy with the way things are going and it is very telling. Many want out.
My opinion is you are a smart ass kid who thinks he knows a lot more than he does. You admit you have tinted taillights...The reason the cop said he stopped you.. And pulling into a store or house or church parking lot while you are being followed is what a lot of people do to try and get the cop to leave them alone. It's nothing out of the ordinary for a cop to stop you if you do this. Me thinks you will spend more time in jail with your know it all attitude.
