I discovered this site through a goggle search and it has been fantastic! Without it I would have taken much longer to get my $500 Fiero back on the road. I thank you for this site its a great resource and I hope its around for a long time.
I haven't read all the posts so this may be a regurgitation of previous thoughts. It's a combination of several different things. 2008 was the beginning of the global recession. In any recession, as household $$ dwindles, the first things that take a hit are hobbies. There has been much less disposable income available to almost all of us since 2008, and the same holds true for anyone "new" that might otherwise have taken an interest in vehicles this old.
The other thing is, the # of other brand cars that have come of 'classic' type age since 2008. The F&F movies began in early 2002 I believe, and progressed thru the 2000s decade and into today, and they had a lot of impact on car folks, especially the younger generations, meaning the Asian cars became much more popular.
The # of car forums and websites have increased dramatically in the last decade too. Most people who own enthusiast type vehicles have more than one make and model, and many of those now spend time on forums that have different sections for each vehicle. Pontiac, Hyundai, Ford, Honda, trucks, all rolled up in one big website. I don't care much for those type sites, but many do.
Attrition due to age has certainly been an impact too. As one ages, different things take priority in lives. Been pointed out, that the majority of Fiero owners are over 50 years old. So much changes when you approach old age. Certainly true for me personally. I still love Fieros and PFF, but just don't have as much time for either as I once did. Things that MUST be done take priority over things ya WANT to do.
The global move to higher MPG vehicles also took a toll. While 30 mpg out of a good 3800 or even a 2.5 in good condition is not bad, but there are so many 5 year old or newer vehicles now cheaply available that beat or exceed that and don't have the age on their parts either.
PFF is not "broken" or antiquated at all. It's just a 'victim' of outside influences beyond any of our control. Nor do I think Fieros are a dying niche, but like all things of interest, they reach a peak, then a steady decline till they reach a sustained plateau. I believe we are near that steady plateau now.
To put it more bluntly, it seems the people who used to buy Fieros as cheap beater cars are moving on to other cars. It seems to me that Fiero owners nowadays are more likely to restore them or fix them up. I'm sure there are several factors contributing to this, including the increasing age (and maintenance needs) of our cars, as well as changes in the enthusiast market. And personally, I see nothing wrong with that. Actually, I welcome it.
So I don't think the Fiero market is dying. IMO, it's just settling down. But it is a niche market, regardless.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-17-2014).]
I agree. It seems as if the names and faces of Fiero who's who are dropping off. Not that cool things aren't still happening, but I feel so after the fact. Cliff, it's a great thing that you do, hosting this. You won't see me on the social media sites like twitter and facebook.
Our cars are getting more difficult to care for, due to age, scarcity of parts, and scarcity of vendors. The economy is rough. I personally took a 60% pay cut in 2008. With the arrival of 2 children, priorities change. You know, daycare, school, family time, etc.
I always wanted a father-son project. Somehow, that didn't happen with my father, but perhaps with my son. He shows promise. At 3, he takes an active interest is hiding my nuts and bolts.
I believe that the Pontiac Fiero is a car like many other limited production vehicles that has followed a trend. They haven't been made for 25 years so they now take on classic car status if you can call them that. Fieros were made in small numbers and will never achieve the popularity of a Camaro or Corvette that are still in production. I would say that the hobby enjoys mature status meaning that the Fieros that are out there will still be driven, modified & restored but the new people entering the hobby are fewer in numbers.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
tshark sorry to hear you took such a pay cut, but I hope you have many hours of fun with your Fiero and that it turns into a good father/son activity. You can't put a price on that.
Apologies for not reading past the first page... But I'm young, and don't have the patience :P JK. I was 14 looking for a 80's Camaro as my first car, granted I already did want a cool car but, had limited funds... Searching CL a "Fiero" Popped up, It sounded vaguely familiar, and I thought back to when I was 8 or so and had a Fastback Fiero pass me and my dad, and he told me what it was. I had literally never seen one, let alone upclose. The more I read about the more sold I was, So I bought mine 86 SE for $500 off CL when I was 14 . No one at my school knew what it was, or had even heard of Fiero's... They all thought it was an old sportscar, I liked that. In a sea of Focus's and Taraus's I had the bright red sportscar! Even still I can count all the Fiero's I've seen on one hand, I always look for them out there! So that's by far the biggest reason why theres not many people interested, because no one knows they even existed!!!!
..... No one at my school knew what it was, or had even heard of Fiero's... They all thought it was an old sportscar, I liked that. In a sea of Focus's and Taraus's I had the bright red sportscar! Even still I can count all the Fiero's I've seen on one hand, I always look for them out there! So that's by far the biggest reason why theres not many people interested, because no one knows they even existed!!!!
Very true with younger folks especially. Welcome aboard
Funny thing is, all my son's teenage friends LOVE my Fiero. They ask, "When you going to let me drive it," all the time. I totally believe the "Cash For Clunkers" thing removed many cool cars from being numerous and easy to get. Got to face it, Fiero's are a niche but I don't think dying is the right word. A better way to put it would be, "Exclusive". I don't mean that in a bad way. Dying to me would be people just stop wanting them. That's not it, they are just getting harder to get.
I think it has past the time to change the guard! V8 Archie, Kick Hill farms, closing the doors. Looking for the next person to take over life line for Fieros of used parts. Wayne's World of Fieros would love to sell my entire inventory of parts. Started in 1988 includes 2 GT fastback convertions, hoods, doors, fenders, 1/4 panels rocker panels, bins filled with everything stripped from over 35 Fieros. Too sweeten the pot I will include my own 1988 GT fastback T-top high milage but lots of newer parts, spare engines, trans, 87 GT V6 wrecked in front drives on site, plenty of good parts, 87 SE was a running driving V8 swapped car , rolling with fresh crate 350 motor on the stand. Located in Allentown Pa. Enough cars and parts for anyone interested to have their car run for along time!
I hope that there is a new crop of vendors who step up to the plate. To be honest though they will have to come from within the group of Fiero enthusiasts, like it or not we are a niche group and I doubt that anyone from outside will be interested.
The reason many dont post, is this is a very closed site. I signed up wanting to talk to like minded people about Fieros. Instead I got a mouthful about how anything I thought was wrong, insulted by a bunch of no-it-alls and generally made to feel unwelcome. I still love fieros as does my 16 year old son. But dont look for us much on Pennock. Just to many unfriendly people who want to argue and prove how smart they are. No thanks. Van
Vanet I can see your point. When I first started posting I was called a troll for recommending a product that worked well for me on my 2M4. There are some smart mouths out their that seem to enjoy bashing other peoples ideas, however there are a lot of good and very talented posters too, those are the people that keep me posting.
Actually, compared to other forums I frequent (non auto related), I will say this place is great. The arguments are always technically related, & do not drift from the details about the car. There is an off topic sub-forum for all of the political bs, & I have never seen it spill into the Fiero related sub-forums.
I will also say that for touchy subjects, I just weight both sides to make an educated decision, & walk away with more than I knew before both pro & con. Best is always relative.
As the Fieros get older so do the people owning them. Some owners have simply just got tired of their cars, some retired, some have shifted their focus to getting married and raising a family. On a positive I've noticed that over the years, many people take leave of this hobby or, or take a break to re-surface a few years later.
I have only read the first and last page. There is one thing that may have been noted in the other pages but I did not see it. Pennocks has been great for a number of years and has assisted in maturing the Fiero audience. One of the things it has also done is create local Fiero groups and communities of friends. The people in these communities take the place sometimes of what a site may offer when it comes to answering questions. If you can call someone and have a realtime conversation and maybe even have someone come over to assist you with the problem immediately or the next day, that will also cut down on site traffic.
Another thing I have noticed is that there seem to be fewer Fiero's available on Craigslist this year compared to last year, and in general the prices are higher. Cars without drivetrains don't usually get sold quickly because the owner wants too much, or people that have Fiero's already have spare parts(a matured owner). I am building a 200 sq foot shed, with a loft, to store all of my parts in. I bought my first Fiero back in 1984, sold it in 1990 when my first child was imminent. Last year I bought the ones listed below in a 6 month time period plus 2 more parts cars that I stripped to the bone, and a whole body that was given to me by someone that was building a kit car.
The other thing is that the "HOW TO" post are amazing. They fill in the blanks that service manuals leave empty. So the need for posting is diminished.
Keep up the good work!!!
------------------ 1988 GT, Automatic, running - bought in Illinois and drove to Austin 1986 SE, 4 cyl, 5 speed running - Bought in California and drove to Austin 1988 GT, T-Top - non running - being restored 1986 GT, runs but clutch/issue - Chop-top candidate 1986 SE, runs, Automatic won't shift into gear - Chop-top candidate
"Is the Fiero market a dying niche?" Possibly or it's just going through a state of change right now. I agree Pennocks is not as fast paced as it was 6 years ago. I've been browsing the forum for 14 years now and as you can see by my side profile, I'm not a "post whore" or even have a rating bar yet I browsed for a year before I registered and started posting. There was so much information here about these cars, I didn't need to ask questions at first, just do a search for info I was looking for. Now I know these cars inside out, I still come here just to see what other members are building, selling, Fiero events & catch up with the Fiero community and I bet so many other members do the same thing. This site is so widely known, people don't have to Google it, they've heard the name from word of mouth and come here directly and just read everything they can.
I don't know what other insurance companies are like but mine will not insure a vehicle older then 20 years as a daily driver. I so miss using a Fiero as a daily driver, it handled great in the snow. I trust my own driving, but there are too many idiots on the street I don't trust in Toronto, I won't take the chance anymore using it as a DD, value my vehicles too much. So I see the Fiero going through another change now to classic car insurance & they have their regulations. I've got Hagerty (formally Lant Custom Wheels) and their policy is the car has to be older then 15 years (no issue their) but the driver has to have his "FULL" license for 10 years plus have another vehicle insured in their name as a daily driver. This means the person has to be at least 27 in Ontario to put a Fiero on the road under classic insurance. Any young would be buyer just getting out of high school with their heart set on a Fiero will have a long wait or find an insurance company who will insure it as a DD but get hit hard in the wallet for the cars age and their age. One of the reasons why I don't see too many younger Fiero owners (in Ontario) The people who are buying them are looking for something they can fix up/ restore and enjoy the car. This could mean that the numbers of Fieros left on the road might start to flat line now, the steady decrease might be slowing down and see more resurrections. I rarely see a Fiero now in a junkyard up here, only thing I see in the junkyards are candidates for motor swaps. I even started cleaning out my storage of so many Fiero parts I've been hoarding the past 15 years. Just going down to want I think I need for the just in case emergency repair or possible future motor swaps.
I'm admin for the Greater Toronto Fieros Forum and I've seen a decline on our forums usage. Members who've sold off their cars and moved on, others who had a Fiero for a year or two then the fad was over. The true Fiero enthusiast will always be there though. They might not be on as often as they used to be but be patient, they will show up and hopefully help out with any questions when asked.
many new visitors to this forum have been run off by rude behavior.some of the worst behavior by members on this very thread & the worst offenders hide behind thier computer knowing they will never pay any price but banishment many younger members have disapeared after they recieved un needed punishment. My latest recruit is still using the forum, but now he will never attend a local Fiero meeting but he wants desparately to meet his detractors !!
many new visitors to this forum have been run off by rude behavior.some of the worst behavior by members on this very thread & the worst offenders hide behind thier computer knowing they will never pay any price but banishment many younger members have disapeared after they recieved un needed punishment. My latest recruit is still using the forum, but now he will never attend a local Fiero meeting but he wants desparately to meet his detractors !!
That's pretty rich considering how badly you trash over half the people of this forum in your rants in off topic Wow Not to mention your ruining of post (like mine honoring my Grandfather) saluting and paying homage to our fallen hero's of past wars. I think I speak for the entire forum and can honestly say shut the ---- up hypocrite. I salute the uniform you occupied but not the flesh that wore it. Cliff if you want to improve this forum ban people like this, he sets the standard of what is wrong with our country as a whole and projects the image of hate to the whole world here.
That's pretty rich considering how badly you trash over half the people of this forum in your rants in off topic Wow Not to mention your ruining of post (like mine honoring my Grandfather) saluting and paying homage to our fallen hero's of past wars. I think I speak for the entire forum and can honestly say shut the ---- up hypocrite. I salute the uniform you occupied but not the flesh that wore it. Cliff if you want to improve this forum ban people like this, he sets the standard of what is wrong with our country as a whole and projects the image of hate to the whole world here.
Very well said jetsnvettes2000.....Plus I believe I am the member he is speaking of and I am FAR from a recruit for him.
[This message has been edited by fierogtlt1 (edited 05-26-2014).]
Originally posted by jetsnvettes2000: That's pretty rich considering how badly you trash over half the people of this forum in your rants in off topic Wow Not to mention your ruining of post (like mine honoring my Grandfather) saluting and paying homage to our fallen hero's of past wars.
He pretty much derailed and hurt each of the threads for this past Daytona show as well.
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan: My latest recruit is still using the forum, but now he will never attend a local Fiero meeting but he wants desparately to meet his detractors !!
Could that possibly be because you are at the meetings, and doesn't want to be labeled as your "new recruit" LOL!
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 05-25-2014).]
Could that possibly be because you are at the meetings, and doesn't want to be labeled as your "new recruit" LOL!
Perfectly said JohnWPB. I definitely don't want to be labeled his "new recruit". Plus I don't attend any local meetings anymore because of his bullshit.I confided in him about my depression of having Scleroderma,of which there is no cure for.I don't know how much longer I will live with this disease and he pretty much told me to "GET OVER IT".
We've noticed the dwindling of lots of "clubs" over recent years. Snowmobile clubs, golf leagues, skiing clubs,.....you name it. As someone else already mentioned, the average age of members in these groups is usually 45-55. The club memberships are decreasing because no new, younger people are getting into them. It's more important for them to be involved with the latest social media than to be actively involved in a mutual activity. With the limited income of younger people, their priority is to purchase the latest "instant gratification" rather than commit to a long term investment of a car, golf clubs, ski equipment, snowmobile, watercraft, etc. Over a decade ago, the new kid, Tiger Woods, drew lots of new, young people to golf. Now, he isn't so young any more. There isn't a dominant new young player drawing in the younger crowd anymore, and golf numbers were just reported as being way down the past couple of years. What would draw young people to Fiero's? Just my viewpoint.
Fieros are old cars now. There's plenty of newer cars that attract the attention of younger people, the FRS/BRZ for example, they even have more aftermarket.
but I love my Fiero.
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 05-27-2014).]
I agree, Fieros are old news to many. They're at that age, to young and to old. I have 4 Fieros until I just sold my 85gt to a younger guy ( most are younger then me now) and he was just thrilled to buy it.
I offered my 87GT to my son for graduation or $1000 cash. He picked the car.. it sat for almost 2 years and we talked and he sold it back to me for the $1000. After another year or so I Planned on repainting it to resell but I first asked him if he wanted it back or should I sell it... He said he would like it back so the $1000 swapped hands one more time. We are going to go through it and he can pick the color... Almost 21 and still don't drive.
I find it crazy how many young adults and teens still don't drive. When I turned 15 I had 2 cars and my drivers license. Everyone I knew had a car and drove even the ladies, it was part of becoming a man... Oh well what can you say.
So now I have my 86 V8 GT and my wife has an 88 V8 Formula and that's all for us now. No plans to buy anymore and will be selling off all but a few extra parts and things, but I do plan on building an old school 23-29 Ford in the near future.
I love all my Fieros and each of them have their own personality, I'm glad my son is keeping his so I can take it for a ride now and then. I hated to see the 85 GT go but it was a manual and I don't want to have any cars my wife can't drive in case something happens to me, anyway I have to make room for the old school rod.
Rides: 86 Fiero GT, Blue, V8 " Snapperhead" 2013 Fierorama Best of Show Non-Stock, , 88 Formula White stock soon to be 4.9 met Blue like Snapperhead--- 10 Camaro, 99 K2500 Suburban, 04 Trailblazer
[This message has been edited by Snapperhead (edited 05-27-2014).]
I find it crazy how many young adults and teens still don't drive. When I turned 15 I had 2 cars and my drivers license. Everyone I knew had a car and drove even the ladies, it was part of becoming a man... Oh well what can you say.
Here Here! My nephew, that I raised, is now 21 years old and in the Marine Corp. He STILL does not have a drivers license! I just dont get it, as you said, I was at the DMV the day I turned 15 to get my learners permit, and had my drivers license the day I turned 16.
Originally posted by Snapperhead: I find it crazy how many young adults and teens still don't drive. When I turned 15 I had 2 cars and my drivers license. Everyone I knew had a car and drove even the ladies, it was part of becoming a man... Oh well what can you say....
Vince
I find this to be a common thing nowadays.... This generation of millennials has spent their entire life being driven around in minivans so they don't feel the need to drive themselves anywhere. When I was growing up all we had was mutt and jeff (our two feet) or the bus. We might get to go somewhere in the car once a month if we were lucky. I got my driver's license as soon as I was able to at 16 and bought my own car with money I earned at 18. Today's generation are very spoiled from what I can see.
Ask my parents for a ride to a friends house... LoL, boy I never would have heard the end of it.. My parents pay for gas, a car or insurance.... that's a funnier laugh yet..... Sure they were always willing to help me but I never even would have thought to ask for something like that... If you can't afford to drive then you need to walk, ride your bike or take the bus.
I hear parents all the time talking about how they pay for that kind of stuff.
The reason many dont post, is this is a very closed site. I signed up wanting to talk to like minded people about Fieros. Instead I got a mouthful about how anything I thought was wrong, insulted by a bunch of no-it-alls and generally made to feel unwelcome. I still love fieros as does my 16 year old son. But dont look for us much on Pennock. Just to many unfriendly people who want to argue and prove how smart they are. No thanks. Van
I'm sorry you had a bad experience here. I am a newish member here myself but I have to say, in contrast to your comments, that I have been entirely pleased with the general comments and helpful technical assistance I have received here. As a relative mechanical novice, and as a new Fiero owner, the help I have received here has been invaluable in understanding, maintaining and improving my GT. I have learned so much just from reading other posts and using the search function and when I sometimes do post a bonehead question I have always received a helpful and respectful response.
I love this site and am grateful for all the good spirited help I have received here. I would have to take a couple of weeks off just to get all the projects done that the folks have been kind enough to assist me with!
The reason many dont post, is this is a very closed site. I signed up wanting to talk to like minded people about Fieros. Instead I got a mouthful about how anything I thought was wrong, insulted by a bunch of no-it-alls and generally made to feel unwelcome. I still love fieros as does my 16 year old son. But dont look for us much on Pennock. Just to many unfriendly people who want to argue and prove how smart they are. No thanks. Van
The new members ALWAYS get hazed
Edit....I saw the thread that you are referencing. ANY time you discuss motor options on here I can guarantee that 95% of the time, they turn into an insult/bitching session.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 05-28-2014).]
I found this forum about 5 years ago, and have got a lot of help from people since then. Over the years I have seen some people be hateful to members when it seemed unwarranted. The first couple times it really shocked me cause it seemed like the Pennocks community prided themselves on being friendly and helpful. Overall it's an awsome forum and everyone is extremely helpful! Every now and then I guess people have a bad day and take it out on others on here, but I doubt it would have a big effect on the number of visitors. Thank you Cliff for keeping it going!!
. No one at my school knew what it was, or had even heard of Fiero's... They all thought it was an old sportscar, I liked that. In a sea of Focus's and Taraus's I had the bright red sportscar! Even still I can count all the Fiero's I've seen on one hand, I always look for them out there! So that's by far the biggest reason why theres not many people interested, because no one knows they even existed!!!!
Not to mention your ruining of post (like mine honoring my Grandfather) saluting and paying homage to our fallen hero's of past wars. I think I speak for the entire forum and can honestly say shut the ---- up hypocrite. I salute the uniform you occupied but not the flesh that wore it. Cliff if you want to improve this forum ban people like this, he sets the standard of what is wrong with our country as a whole and projects the image of hate to the whole world here. 
