Yeah I guess I'm trying to solve a non-existent problem. If GMC wasn't profitable it would not have survived the bankruptcy. In this case profit over-rides logic.
Also confirms the world perception that Americans are idiots. In Japan if you want a high end Toyota you go into a dealership and buy a high end Toyota. You don't have to be tricked into buying some car with a computer generated name that sounds more expensive, (Lexus). But in the US people are too silly to realize that a Sierra or a Denali is just a Chevy wearing a fancy suit. I imagine there are GMC owners that would buy Fords if their Jimmys went away. I don't understand it but apparently that's the deal.
GMC is not fooling many as I am sure there are some idiots out there.
GM has a profitable product that they can sell at any non Chevy dealer. They also are working to differentiate it from the Chevy line to make it even more profitable and a step up over the comparable Chevy. This is not any different than the Regal vs. the Malibu. Both cars under the body share many things but in the Regal you can get AWD and many other standard options with different styling. This is where GMC is going. You could get pretty much a similar car in a Malibu and save money. Same for the Lacrosse as this car is the same as the Impala and ATS under the skin but the contents make them different with styling.
There have been a few low end Lexus that share more with the Camry than anything too. They all do it. The Toyota SUV's share much with Lexus and he Nissan with Infiniti and the Lincoln Navigator is just a fancy Ford.
They all do it. GMC for a long while in the past used to be different with their powertrains using Pontiac engines or their own large truck 305 V6. While the frame and engine will remain Chevy the new trucks will move to more different bodies, trims and Options.
GMC pick ups were originally created as when selling fleets of larger trucks they got a lot of request for Pick up trucks from the fleet buyers in the packages. This is where the pick up trucks kind of worked in on a larger truck company.
I have a little different insite on this being my great uncle was one of GMC lead engineers from the late 20's to the early 60's.
GMC was much like Pontiac where they shared much in the later years of GM's mismanagement of the many divisions. But today with the high volume of trucks GMC is still paying it's own way. There are many like me that like the GMC styling a little more and often I find the price is not much or any different if you get a good dealer. My dealer made us a better deal on our Terrain than the Nox.
One thing to note the GMC SUV lines have been expanding. Case in point the Terrain sold only just over 30K units its first year and last year this far down the road it nearly tripled the number. Yes the Terrain has out sold the Camaro. The vehicle is similar to the Nox but the styling sets it apart. There are many who would buy it an not the Nox and that adds up to 10s of thousands of sales.
There are cases where things like this work and don't work. In the end Pontiac really lost their performance and lost what set them apart. They were not making money and it killed them. On the other hand GMC was making money so GM kept them and will invest to repair them.
There have been a few low end Lexus that share more with the Camry than anything too. They all do it. The Toyota SUV's share much with Lexus and he Nissan with Infiniti and the Lincoln Navigator is just a fancy Ford.
They all do it.
The point was, there is no Infiniti, Lexus or Acura in Japan. Only in the US. Elsewhere, if you want a high end Honda, you just buy one. In the US, people will spend more for chromy bits or fake wood trim in the same vehicle because it has a status badge on it. In the US we had the Acura NSX, in Japan it was just the Honda NSX...
The idiocy, in my view, culminated with Chrysler selling both a Plymouth Neon and a Dodge Neon back in the 90s. They didn't even bother changing the names or even the lighting/fascias...
If GM wants to sell the same car here as a Chevrolet and as Opel or Vauxhall in the EU, perhaps as Holden for the Aussies... fine. But to sell the same car through all the makes in one market instead of trying to decide if it would do better as a Buick or a Chevrolet is a waste of money.
Exhibit A: The Buick Encore, whose top trim level starts at $30k, starts at. Seriously, for a car based on a $15k commuter that maxes out at $23k with turbo, auto and leather... and then give it the proportional bubble look of the smaller Spark and that's GM's formula to compete with the BMW X1 and Audi Q3?
GM's platforming/redundancy is one of the things that killed it the first time, and it doesn't look to me like it's getting any better. Cadillac Cimarron anyone?
Exhibit A: The Buick Encore, whose top trim level starts at $30k, starts at. Seriously, for a car based on a $15k commuter that maxes out at $23k with turbo, auto and leather... and then give it the proportional bubble look of the smaller Spark and that's GM's formula to compete with the BMW X1 and Audi Q3?
Yeah, I don't get this vehicle. Too small to be an SUV (heck, cars have more space that this). Overpriced also. My father thought they looked nice until he realized that they were so small.
The point was, there is no Infiniti, Lexus or Acura in Japan. Only in the US. Elsewhere, if you want a high end Honda, you just buy one. In the US, people will spend more for chromy bits or fake wood trim in the same vehicle because it has a status badge on it. In the US we had the Acura NSX, in Japan it was just the Honda NSX...
The idiocy, in my view, culminated with Chrysler selling both a Plymouth Neon and a Dodge Neon back in the 90s. They didn't even bother changing the names or even the lighting/fascias...
If GM wants to sell the same car here as a Chevrolet and as Opel or Vauxhall in the EU, perhaps as Holden for the Aussies... fine. But to sell the same car through all the makes in one market instead of trying to decide if it would do better as a Buick or a Chevrolet is a waste of money.
GM's platforming/redundancy is one of the things that killed it the first time, and it doesn't look to me like it's getting any better. Cadillac Cimarron anyone?
Yeah this was my central point. The Government came down hard on GM for having too many brands and too much badge engineering (which to any logical person seems like a waste of money).
Now maybe at the end of the day GMC doesn't fall in this category because it's profitable. But that is only because silly Americans will spend $10Ks more for the exact same vehicle if you give it a different name.
I could have bought the Cadillac EXT instead of my Avalanche but for double the price is it worth it? Up until 2013 the Caddy came with painted exterior body hardware, looks nicer, but not worth $30K. Now that they are clearing out the parts bins the Avalanche has painted body hardware, almost indistinguishable from the Caddy. Where is the value in paying double for the exact same vehicle? I guess if people are stupid enough to pay it then GM would be stupid not to offer it.
I hope it works out for this this time, but honestly I think that there are still way too many brands at GM. They only need two if that many. A main line brand and a luxury brand. And I'm not even sure they need two.
The point was, there is no Infiniti, Lexus or Acura in Japan. Only in the US. Elsewhere, if you want a high end Honda, you just buy one. In the US, people will spend more for chromy bits or fake wood trim in the same vehicle because it has a status badge on it. In the US we had the Acura NSX, in Japan it was just the Honda NSX...
The idiocy, in my view, culminated with Chrysler selling both a Plymouth Neon and a Dodge Neon back in the 90s. They didn't even bother changing the names or even the lighting/fascias...
If GM wants to sell the same car here as a Chevrolet and as Opel or Vauxhall in the EU, perhaps as Holden for the Aussies... fine. But to sell the same car through all the makes in one market instead of trying to decide if it would do better as a Buick or a Chevrolet is a waste of money.
Exhibit A: The Buick Encore, whose top trim level starts at $30k, starts at. Seriously, for a car based on a $15k commuter that maxes out at $23k with turbo, auto and leather... and then give it the proportional bubble look of the smaller Spark and that's GM's formula to compete with the BMW X1 and Audi Q3?
GM's platforming/redundancy is one of the things that killed it the first time, and it doesn't look to me like it's getting any better. Cadillac Cimarron anyone?
Poor examples as for the Cimarron was a long time ago and all agree was a mistake.
On the other hand the Buick here while bases on the same platform is not identical to the Chevy. For one the options and level of trim are much higher. Also the sound control is much higher. In fact the media who hates badge engineering love this car accept for the lack of power that will soon be addressed. Might also note that supplies are low on the Buick as it is proving to be very Popular.
The idea of this is to have luxury trim in a smaller vehicle that with the seats folded down can carry things a small sedan can not. It has appeal to women who do not want a larger CUV and for older folks down sizing and do not want to pay $50K for a larger vehicle. It is not a vehicle for me but people are buying it because they want and like it. So more power to GM.
Also note the Buick is sold here in the states but the Chevy is not so there is no over lap of markets. If they can sell it cheap in Europe great if they can dress it up here and make a good profit on it God Bless em!
The key to GM's future is to use similar product all over the world and not duplicate much in any one market. So what is a Chevy here may be an Opel there and Buick else where.
As for GM's choices for competing with BMW and Audi you need to look first to Cadillac as a large selection of new CUV and SUV models are coming with at least three new models you have yet to see.
As for why did they come up with Acura or Lexus names? Because Honda and Toyota here were used on cheap economical cars for over 20 years and at the time these cars were introduced the American public was reluctant to play the high price for an upscale Honda. Same for Lexus as no one back in the 80's would have paid $40K for a Toyota.
You have to look big picture and the culture and view of each market as what people think and perceived. Cultures and market have different outlook, taste and perceptions and companies need to do all they can to address and exploit this.
Things are not all so cut and dry here as you like to make it. True in the past there were major mistakes with badge engineering but today much more care is used in it. As I have always said the larger the crowd the lower the collective IQ. Yes people are gullible and often they are victims of their own perceptions. Companies can not dictate what the people think they must look at each market and adjust to what it wants and needs.
Badge engineering is going to remain a part of each company as no one can do with out it to a degree. I agree mistakes were made in the past but if you look to day things are much more carefully planned and adapted. This is why you have a Buick Encore here and not a Chevy Trax.
Even at Chevy today they sell the Equinox and have restricted the Fleet sales. To replace it they have taken a Captiva based on the same platform and used it for fleet sales to protect the owners resale on the Nox. It has worked as Nox resale prices are great.
There is much more I could dig into here as this is not a simple cut and dry marketing case here. If it were this simple we on the web would be running things and I can assure you while many ideas may sound great they seldom play out globally like you want.
If figuring out the public were so easy there would be no issues for any car company. The public is a moving target and you have to try to keep up and gamble billions on what they will want in 5-7 years.
One other thing on the Buick Encore is it is sold in China and doing well. Same as the Verano these were risk GM took to see if people would respond in the states but were covered by sales in China. If they failed here the risk were small and the cost of the programs were covered with sales in China.
This stuff is big picture and you have to look much deeper financially and market wise to see what is going on. There are still risk but you minimize them buy going global.
Yeah this was my central point. The Government came down hard on GM for having too many brands and too much badge engineering (which to any logical person seems like a waste of money).
Now maybe at the end of the day GMC doesn't fall in this category because it's profitable. But that is only because silly Americans will spend $10Ks more for the exact same vehicle if you give it a different name.
I could have bought the Cadillac EXT instead of my Avalanche but for double the price is it worth it? Up until 2013 the Caddy came with painted exterior body hardware, looks nicer, but not worth $30K. Now that they are clearing out the parts bins the Avalanche has painted body hardware, almost indistinguishable from the Caddy. Where is the value in paying double for the exact same vehicle? I guess if people are stupid enough to pay it then GM would be stupid not to offer it.
I hope it works out for this this time, but honestly I think that there are still way too many brands at GM. They only need two if that many. A main line brand and a luxury brand. And I'm not even sure they need two.
Take the GMC and double the profits and you have a Escalade.
Now to be fair the new Escalade is much more than the Chevy Tahoe. If you take a look at it yes they do share platforms but if you want things like the Magnetic ride and higher levels of trim with a standard 6.0 and LED lights. Now yes they could just make a Chevy like this but how many people would shell out $75K for a Chevy truck. Name equity of the Cadillac name adds to this as people like the image of the upscale names. Cadillac is in the process of recovering their name and it is paying off.
It is not just the public in some cases are stupid but they are also vain. BMW cars have their good points but most become money pits and I have see many a customer spend a fortune on a wasted BMW just to say they own one.
My Mother in law can get a Impala that is a very good car but she will pay more for the ATS. Now the ATS does offer a Twin Turbo and AWD but she will just get the 3.6 V6 with FWD and just would want the car for the name and image she feels it projects on her.
Some folks get over this image thing as I have several friends worth millions and both drive old trucks with over 100,000 miles. Image means little to them. But to those who like to go to the club it is a competition.
Either way if people are willing to pay it then be willing to sell it.
In this day and age cars are less an emotional thing but to many it is a image and emotional thing. It used to be a car told people who you were but today it is what cell phone you carry.
Originally posted by hyperv6: There is much more I could dig into here as this is not a simple cut and dry marketing case here. If it were this simple we on the web would be running things and I can assure you while many ideas may sound great they seldom play out globally like you want.
If figuring out the public were so easy there would be no issues for any car company. The public is a moving target and you have to try to keep up and gamble billions on what they will want in 5-7 years.
I'm sure GM's marketing division is way smarter than random people on the internet. Just some things don't make sense to me. Like the Trax would be a cool vehicle in the US, why not sell it? I agree it's a great platform for many, but maybe people want just the regular Chevy one and not the expensive Buick version. Why not just sell the Chevy and offer upscale options for those that want them?
I don't know if the world were run by engineers you would be able to buy any car you want in any trim level with exactly the options you desire. But until custom manufacturing trickles down to cars that's not going to happen. I just ordered a computer on-line. Remember when you could buy a Dell and get it exactly how you want it? Those days are gone, but you can still custom order a computer, have it manufactured in China and shipped here quicker than you can have a Dell sent to you from Texas.
I hope GM does well now because it's just a matter of time before we are buying Chinese cars at the Wal-mart and then Detroit really will be bankrupt.
I'm wondering, thinking about the differences between Honda/Acura-Toyota/Lexus vs GM/GMC/Chevrolet/Buick/Cadillac (and the other US Ford Chrysler companies). Is the structure of the Japanese companies one of a single company with two badges? That is, the new "badge" was created by the original company with a defined hierarchy and coordinated effort. Where in the US case, the "badges" were acquired through acquisition? And with that the remnants of the corporate and brand legacy. It does kind of seem at least with GM there are or were these sub companies within a company almost competing against one another.
I'm kind of with you jscott, if it were me, GMC would mean trucks, Chevrolet would be cars, and Cadillac wold be luxury.
I'm kind of with you jscott, if it were me, GMC would mean trucks, Chevrolet would be cars, and Cadillac wold be luxury.
That's all you need. I keep talking about getting rid of GMC but in reality they have been making trucks twice as long as Chevy, so yeah who needs Chevy trucks and just have a GMC truck division.
But yes GM is a little fiefdom created from individual companies that have been acquired over the years. That's one reason it's not very logical or well thought out.
I'm sure GM's marketing division is way smarter than random people on the internet. Just some things don't make sense to me. Like the Trax would be a cool vehicle in the US, why not sell it? I agree it's a great platform for many, but maybe people want just the regular Chevy one and not the expensive Buick version. Why not just sell the Chevy and offer upscale options for those that want them?
I don't know if the world were run by engineers you would be able to buy any car you want in any trim level with exactly the options you desire. But until custom manufacturing trickles down to cars that's not going to happen. I just ordered a computer on-line. Remember when you could buy a Dell and get it exactly how you want it? Those days are gone, but you can still custom order a computer, have it manufactured in China and shipped here quicker than you can have a Dell sent to you from Texas.
I hope GM does well now because it's just a matter of time before we are buying Chinese cars at the Wal-mart and then Detroit really will be bankrupt.
Bob Lutz has three book and I would recommend each as they all give very good insight to how things work or don't work in a auto company. Car Guys and Bean Counters is eye opening for GM and his recent Icons and Idiots tells a lot on company leaders.
Most times people are smarter than the internet but... A lot of times things do not make sense as you do not use all the facts that go into a decision. Most people leave them out because they just do not know as they are never released to the public. Also some folks leave them out as they are inconvenient to their views on the web.
The problem with the Trax being sold as a Chevy is if it were brought here the selling point would have been right about where the lower end Equinox is selling. GM sells a lot of Nox in this price range. Also it is a very competitive slot with many other vehicles selling there. GM chose to move it up a few thousand and offer a small CUV with more option that had not ever been done. As of now it has outsold what GM had expected and they have been in short supply. Also other MFG have taken notice and they are now considering to move into this segment.
The other issue is the Buick Revival has not started yet. We have yet to see any of the real new Buick products and they were in need of a new model. We should soon see new clean sheet of paper products coming and this will make Buick into a division unlike it is today. The GM turn around in the first step was going to take up to 10 years to touch most models as they do not have the money or man power to do it all at once. This is why some products like the Malibu, Regal and Lacrosse were carry over products from pre chapter 11 GM.
Many do not understand how GM was between a rock and a hard spot with the Malibu. It was pretty much locked down in 208-09 and GM just did not have the money yet to put it on the market. Chevy had to first do the trucks as they bring in the most income to pay for the other cars. They pushed the Bu up as much as they could because they knew the Fusion was coming and they wanted to be out first as they knew the Fusion was going to be good. The update to the Malibu was started even before the sales issues as GM knew they needed to fix these things but to delay the car it would have put them behind the Fusion. The Bu as It is will only be around a couple years and be replaced with a new car already being worked on.
What we don't know also is in styling. On another web site some are complain about the styling of the Volt. But they do not consider how much the styling adds to the range of the car. They did over 1200 tweaks in 200 hours in the tunnel on it and small things like the spoiler in the rear were changed 5 MM to add up to 1/4 mile of range. Also there is a body line that is there to kill the turbulence on the rear of the car that would remove miles of range. Until there is a better or larger battery they have a small box to work in for now. More range will bring more styling liberties. Also why did they shorten the wheel base from the Volt Show Car? Well they had to use a platform that was already built and that was the Cruze. Also the shorter wheel base gave a shorter turning circle. The engine bay was already crash tested and that saved millions of dollars on a car they knew was going to be difficult to keep the price down and sell in low volumes.
Like I said you need to look big picture at the issues as there is always a lot more into it than what the public knows or even considers.
As for GMC and Chevy here is the yin and the yang. Chevy sells more trucks and has more dealers. GMC sells at a higher transaction price and is more profitable. They are like the Siamese twins that can not easily be separated with out some major risk in a segment that brings in big money. In killing Pontiac there was little to lose other than a few customers but there was no profit to lose. In GMC you have good profit for Buick and Cadillac dealers to add and so many other positives it would be difficult to remove them. As for Chevy do you really think changing the name and styling on your best selling vehicle would be a very smart move. GM did not even take a big risk on the 2014 trucks as it is because they did not want to take the risk of any lost sales.
As for idiots every society has them as it is just part of human nature. We have it in car perceptions but other markets do too. China many will avoid cars from japan because o WWII. Europe like the home brands but in countries that were communist they love American products. Each culture has different taste some may be emotional and may be logical.
As for old Elon he will be a foot note in history as even his pockets are not deep enough. His stock is inflated artificially and he really has no real technology that no one else has. He only built a car in a segment the other did not think would work. Well he has sold car and now the other will enter that segment with technology he does not have. I see him at some point selling to a larger MFG and taking the money. He is now talking about doing a cheaper car at starting at $35K to 40K when it needs to be $25K so he will find out what the others have found in this segment.
Elon is the ma master of the web and hype and has used it well. But time will catch up to him. I think we have seen just what a small issue of a fire after an accident has done to the stock. If they ever have a big recall or a major issue it will kill the company fast.
As for China they are not going anywhere fast. Even the people of their own country will not buy their cars. This is why each company doing business in China has to have a partner. One to steal their technology [this is why the Volt is not offered there] and two to use the name of the larger company and make money from them. There is no Chinese cars in the top ten in sales over in their own country. I think it even went to top 15 before you saw one. They know how to copy things but they do not understand global markets and will struggle for a time ahead.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-17-2013).]
Originally posted by hyperv6: Bob Lutz has three book and I would recommend each as they all give very good insight to how things work or don't work in a auto company. Car Guys and Bean Counters is eye opening for GM and his recent Icons and Idiots tells a lot on company leaders.
Most times people are smarter than the internet but... A lot of times things do not make sense as you do not use all the facts that go into a decision. Most people leave them out because they just do not know as they are never released to the public. Also some folks leave them out as they are inconvenient to their views on the web.
I''m sure everything you are saying is true and vetted by inside information... I'm just grumbling as random internet person.
As for the 2014 Trucks it was a huge disappointment to me. I don't know how you can make an all new truck that looks exactly the same as the previous one. I walked past it three times at the autoshow and didn't even realize it was a new model. The interior actually looks worse to me. Looks like pods are coming back. I guess all the kids who grew up with Fieros are in authoritative positions at GM and influencing the design.
I remember the good ole days when new generation cars just made you go "wow!" like the 3rd gen F body was way cooler looking than the 2nd gen and the 4th gen took it up a notch from the 3rd gen. Now a generation happens and you yawn because the only change is a ring of LEDs around the headlights. Maybe I'm just entering the old fogy stage of life where nothing impresses me anymore.
I''m sure everything you are saying is true and vetted by inside information... I'm just grumbling as random internet person.
As for the 2014 Trucks it was a huge disappointment to me. I don't know how you can make an all new truck that looks exactly the same as the previous one. I walked past it three times at the autoshow and didn't even realize it was a new model. The interior actually looks worse to me. Looks like pods are coming back. I guess all the kids who grew up with Fieros are in authoritative positions at GM and influencing the design.
I remember the good ole days when new generation cars just made you go "wow!" like the 3rd gen F body was way cooler looking than the 2nd gen and the 4th gen took it up a notch from the 3rd gen. Now a generation happens and you yawn because the only change is a ring of LEDs around the headlights. Maybe I'm just entering the old fogy stage of life where nothing impresses me anymore.
You are not alone as I too had hoped for more change in the full size trucks. To me there were whole sale changes under the skin that get overlooked because the skin look similar to the last one.
But there again if it ain't broke why fix it. When you have billions involved and you do not need to take a chance then you don't. Ford has done this for years and Ram only took a big chance when they were desperate to move to the newer style that has not changed a lot since from the original boxy Dodge.
I too miss the trips to the dealers in late August to look at the back lots to spy a new model that we have not seen anywhere before. I used to make my dad take me every year. We also normally had a new Chevelle at the dealer in late August that was ordered sight unseen and would have to wait till the release in September to pick it up. We did that every year up till the mid 70's and I just loved it. I think now how crazy it was to see the car you bought for the first time in the back of a dealer in hiding. The 73 Chevelle was my great disappointment. LOL! In Cream too yuck!
The business has just changed and if companies do not change to the new ways they will be gone. The cost of development are so high anymore that you have Ford and GM sharing cost to jointly develop Transmissions. It has gotten to a state everyone needs a dance partner as very few MFG can do it all alone anymore and the smaller ones can't do it alone.
So you are not alone I missed the old days too but they are no coming back. While we have some of the most advanced cars with the most power ever today some other things have to be left in the past. Life moves on and if you don't move with it you get left behind I am sad to say.
Maybe I'm just entering the old fogy stage of life where nothing impresses me anymore.
It's even worse when you work in the Automotive Design Engineering, where you're confined by the Styling Studio. You have to design your parts within those constraints, those parts must be cheap, meet all durability requirements at the same time, and you have to work with a Foreign Supplier who knows very little English. Take my word for it, it's a grueling task that has you pulling your hair out at the end of the day. You have to really love it, or it will eat you up.
Originally posted by hyperv6: GM is rebadging but only in markets the other cars are not sold in. Chevy is not down under and hence we have Holden trim. The key here is the market down there is so small that it has high expenses compared to numbers sold. Last year Holden sold 107K cars and were second in sales. That is less cars than GM sold in California.
While Chevy was not a boost to Europe with the Opel issues and the fact Euro buyers tend to be a little more nationalistic I do not see a major issue in Australia. There will be some pain felt buy some of the diehard Holden fans but for the most part they already know they are getting Chevys.
On GM insider said how the Holden group states it would be devastating to lose the name plate but the Detroit group that went down under to investigate has a large capture of photo's of people with their Holden's wearing gold Bow Ties in the grill.
Chevy has long been a forbidden fruit down under and it has a lot of fans.
I still like the old low budget Australian horror fill Dead End Drive In. The hero is driving a 56 Chevy Convertible with RHD. It played a big part in the movie.
Australia is about were we were in the 80's where the Asian cars are coming in and people are buying them even if they are not home built. To understand a market you need to know the people in it and Australians are closer to American thinking than many old non iron curtain countries. Not most old Iron Curtain countries love American cars like Chevy and they will continue there.
Hmmmmmm. I'm sorry dude, I cannot agree with you.
Holden isn't a trim, it's a manufacturer. Sure there's the little cars that are as of recently all Daewoo based, but the Commodore is as Australian as Crocodile Dundee. The Zeta platform was developed in-house at Holden. The Commodore isn't a Chevrolet rebadged at all - the only North American sourced components are the powertrain, and in the case of the Alloytec/HFV6 models, the engine is manufactured in-house too. This amount of effort in today's day and age is simply no good economically.
If Detroit sent a team who took photos of people with Chev badges on their cars, they weren't paying attention. Search 'Holden Chev Badges' and have a wee read of what people think of the folk with Chevrolet badging. It was common in the 1970s when you'd replaced your Holden Six with a 350, and has somewhat continued ever since with people attempting to brag at the North American origin of their V8, but there's a nice clinical name for those people too... "wankers".
Yes driving a Chevrolet or any other North American machine has a stigma down here, but it's like an exclusivity thing, much like how people get all wound up about having old Nissan Skylines and other JDM stuff in the States. Offer them as a regular thing and that will change.
Just sayin'... don't underestimate the nationalistic thing. We're talking about a country where these large sedans get pedalled around a public road for a full day while people threaten to stab one another for supporting the opposite team while drinking the beers they smuggled in by burying them near where they were going to sit a few days in advance. That and Australasians are not exactly known for being into marque engineering - that doesn't really work outside the US.
But who knows, right? GM's a big firm and things can change any minute, especially with a big shake up like having Mary come on board.
Oh and to keep things kinda Fiero related - when I mention exclusivity there's a grey area where you get ignored. Go to any American car show and it's Impalas, Corvettes and Camaros. I took my '84 with a 3800 to a show after I'd just gotten it finished and tell you what, it's awfully disheartening to hear people's remarks. "Oh it's just a stupid MR2 looking thing, I bet it's Japanese. Ugh, and it's just got a Commodore V6 in it"...
It's even worse when you work in the Automotive Design Engineering, where you're confined by the Styling Studio. You have to design your parts within those constraints, those parts must be cheap, meet all durability requirements at the same time, and you have to work with a Foreign Supplier who knows very little English. Take my word for it, it's a grueling task that has you pulling your hair out at the end of the day. You have to really love it, or it will eat you up.
Here is a guy who know the parts people on the web never consider.
I am sure he could tell stories like some of the people I know tell. It is not any where as easy as many think to build a car and make a profit that makes everyone happy.
Holden isn't a trim, it's a manufacturer. Sure there's the little cars that are as of recently all Daewoo based, but the Commodore is as Australian as Crocodile Dundee. The Zeta platform was developed in-house at Holden. The Commodore isn't a Chevrolet rebadged at all - the only North American sourced components are the powertrain, and in the case of the Alloytec/HFV6 models, the engine is manufactured in-house too. This amount of effort in today's day and age is simply no good economically.
If Detroit sent a team who took photos of people with Chev badges on their cars, they weren't paying attention. Search 'Holden Chev Badges' and have a wee read of what people think of the folk with Chevrolet badging. It was common in the 1970s when you'd replaced your Holden Six with a 350, and has somewhat continued ever since with people attempting to brag at the North American origin of their V8, but there's a nice clinical name for those people too... "wankers".
Yes driving a Chevrolet or any other North American machine has a stigma down here, but it's like an exclusivity thing, much like how people get all wound up about having old Nissan Skylines and other JDM stuff in the States. Offer them as a regular thing and that will change.
Just sayin'... don't underestimate the nationalistic thing. We're talking about a country where these large sedans get pedalled around a public road for a full day while people threaten to stab one another for supporting the opposite team while drinking the beers they smuggled in by burying them near where they were going to sit a few days in advance. That and Australasians are not exactly known for being into marque engineering - that doesn't really work outside the US.
But who knows, right? GM's a big firm and things can change any minute, especially with a big shake up like having Mary come on board.
Umm Dude We all know well about the Commodore. What you left out is this.
One it is off the table as it is going away soon so it is out of the discussion as to Holden's future. My comments were bases on what was left.
Two. The Zeta was a Holden based design with global input. Lets face it in this case old Mick Dundee had a Mum in the outback but dad was from America. This was more a joint venture than many realize or understand. Hell we have to send the engines down to you just to get them back in the cars. Even the head of the program at times has often been someone from Detroit.
The issue is no matter were GM builds or designs a car anymore it has input from all their engineering staffs around the world. These things are now around the clock operations that may be bases some were but they all have a little of their work in them.
As for badge engineering the Cruze already shows that it works down under as they sold nearly as many as the Commodore last year. Changing the badge at first will produce some ill will with some at first but it is similar to our loss of Pontiac here.
If Holden had been making most of their cars and not only two models then the loss would be major to the market and nationalism. But as like Pontiac they only had what one could call two real performance models and when Pontiac left a few grumbled but that was it. Many said Market share would crash well GM market share went up.
Based on the many people I deal with down under some daily and all are car nuts they are more concerned about the possible loss of a RWD car more then the Holden Name. Now to be fair most own a Older Chevy now so they may be more biased but most like many other understand the entire line is based on Chevy now.
So do you just keep the charade up and keep rebadging them or do you just leave the grills as they are most other places? This is just why it is not easy to be the head of a automaker as you have to make the call.
I hope they keep the name but the smart move to do is to change it. Time will tell with what they do or what is right. I believe they have not fully settled this one yet as from what I have heard the argument is still going on.
I just hope they do go ahead with plans to send in the new coming Camaro and or a RWD sedan to sell as the loss of the sedan may not be much in American Volume but it was still 30K units there. That is a lot of cars for a small market.
Its a fact Jack. GMC is more profitable than chevy per unit. Get over it cheby lovers. I being a Pontiac person will not purchase a cheby. They are cheap.
I know the full sized trucks are bread and butter so they aren't going to change them much but they should. The "new" F150 was a disappointment to me too. RAM seems to be the only one making any progress with the Mega cab and also the lock box on the back. I'm not a truck guy but what sold me on the Avalanche is that it corrected many of the deficiencies that trucks have, namely it comes with a bed liner, bed cover and locking storage in the back, not to mention coil springs instead of 1000 year old leaf spring technology. Oh and it's the only truck with a mid-gate. But I will keep my Av forever because the Silverado doesn't come with any of the things I mentioned. By the time I have to add a bed liner, bed cover locking storage and new suspension I might as well get a different vehicle.
To make this Fiero related again, the 1990 Fiero represents everything the industry is NOT right now. The 1990 was the same under the skin, same space frame. But they were going to hang new body panels on it and it would have made all the folks driving 84 and 85 Fieros get excited want to run out and get new ones. The space frame allowed GM to quickly make body changes. But what happened to the spaceframe?? It seemed like the way of the future and now it's gone.
If the Fiero were still in production what would it be like? The spaceframe probably would be gone and it would be unibody stamped steel just like everything else. It would have the same jelly bean shape as everything else, same generic corporate engines as everything else. And changes would be so expensive that the 2014 Fiero 5th Generation Fiero would look just like the 4th Generation Fiero with a ring of LEDs around the headlights. Ho hum, I'm bored just thinking about it. First time I've ever been glad the Fiero is out of production, lol.
Originally posted by jscott1: If the Fiero were still in production what would it be like?
Probably it would be a bigger car? The front wheel well moved forward and a bigger trunk. That low lift trunk.
Or along those what if lines: what if the fiero were to be brought back like the camaro? (the new CEO used to own a fiero?)
To bring the fiero back as originally intended, as a sporty, inexpensive, commuter car, maybe it could come back as an electric, or a plug in hybrid? Like the camaro, keep that original retro styling as much as possible. But yeah, no way, LOL.
Its a fact Jack. GMC is more profitable than chevy per unit. Get over it cheby lovers. I being a Pontiac person will not purchase a cheby. They are cheap.
Well you are correct on GMC being more profitable but you are wrong on the second part.
Chevys are not really cheaper than a Pontiac. In the long past that may have bee a little more true but in the last 30 years Pontiac was really just a restyled Chevy and like GMC sold at a little higher price and enjoyed a little higher transaction price.
But in the later years cars like the G6 really were no better or worse than any Chevy. In fact the Malibu was a better refined G6 since it came out later and many things were fixed that were wrong on the G6. Also you could get the better engines in cars like the Cobalt and HHR with the Turbo Eco engine that Pontiac should have had but never got.
So please do not fool yourself on this topic as while there were some differences they were still much the same.
Even my Terrain less the Denali package is nothing different than the Equinox. They have a different shape and the GMC has red dash lights and some more chrome and that is all.
It is nice to know GM did fool a few people.
Now that there are less models and makes GM can have room to expand and make models much more diverse than in the past.
GM was like a Pizza and like someone asking you how hungry you are. They can cut a 24" pizza into 6 pieces or 12 pieces but the pie is still the same size. Today with less models it will be spread out so they have more room to make each brand a little more different than when they had to cut them into smaller parts of the pie.
I know the full sized trucks are bread and butter so they aren't going to change them much but they should. The "new" F150 was a disappointment to me too. RAM seems to be the only one making any progress with the Mega cab and also the lock box on the back. I'm not a truck guy but what sold me on the Avalanche is that it corrected many of the deficiencies that trucks have, namely it comes with a bed liner, bed cover and locking storage in the back, not to mention coil springs instead of 1000 year old leaf spring technology. Oh and it's the only truck with a mid-gate. But I will keep my Av forever because the Silverado doesn't come with any of the things I mentioned. By the time I have to add a bed liner, bed cover locking storage and new suspension I might as well get a different vehicle.
To make this Fiero related again, the 1990 Fiero represents everything the industry is NOT right now. The 1990 was the same under the skin, same space frame. But they were going to hang new body panels on it and it would have made all the folks driving 84 and 85 Fieros get excited want to run out and get new ones. The space frame allowed GM to quickly make body changes. But what happened to the spaceframe?? It seemed like the way of the future and now it's gone.
If the Fiero were still in production what would it be like? The spaceframe probably would be gone and it would be unibody stamped steel just like everything else. It would have the same jelly bean shape as everything else, same generic corporate engines as everything else. And changes would be so expensive that the 2014 Fiero 5th Generation Fiero would look just like the 4th Generation Fiero with a ring of LEDs around the headlights. Ho hum, I'm bored just thinking about it. First time I've ever been glad the Fiero is out of production, lol.
Well I love the Avalanche as much as anyone but the market grew tired of it. It was a limited segment model as It was part SUV/ Truck. It was the El Camino of the truck segment. It was not enough truck for some and not enough SUV for others and the price scared away many as they were not cheap.
I hope they may bring it back in the mid size market where I think it would do much better. The mid size trucks hurt with crew cabs with short beds that are a waste. With the system on the Avalanche I think they could make them more useful. The real issue is price again as it would not be a cheap model to make or sell.
As for Ford we have yet to see their new truck since it is late. And for Ram they have nothing to lose and need to be aggressive. The Mega cab is just a blip but the compartments on the bed are a nice touch and the smart move was the Diesel in the 1/2 ton. GM will also offer this soon but they are a little slow on that one.
The space frame would have died as it was a nice idea that just would have had difficulty surviving. The first issue was the plastic body parts. There is just no way to gap them as well as a steel or metal panel. You can hear the body move on a hot day on a Fiero. With out the plastic panels there was no need for the space frame. It is much easier, cheaper and stronger to use a uni-body today. They have even gotten the cars to the point the windshield is part of the cars structure and gives it much rigidity.
Lighter weight and aero are important parts of making a car work in todays regulations. To be honest all is not lost as while aero is important the Vette has shown that you can still make a great looking car and still include air management. The box the industry has to work in has gotten smaller with all the government regulation not just here but elsewhere. It is no unlike an airplane where the laws of aerodynamics direct that you have to work in this box.
I think with the many sharp looking sports cars out there GM could have designed a sharp Fiero. The only real trouble is trying to sell a limited volume 2 seat car cheap is nearly impossible. The Corvette and Miata are the only two to do this long term as everyone else has fall aside. The 2 seater market is limited and with the low cost hard to justify building. If it were not for the many years the Corvette Shared many parts with other Chevys it would have died long ago. Also the Miata without limited per market global sales it would have never lasted. The other make up for lack of volume in price and that takes them out of the every day guys hands.
Originally posted by hyperv6: The space frame would have died as it was a nice idea that just would have had difficulty surviving. The first issue was the plastic body parts. There is just no way to gap them as well as a steel or metal panel. You can hear the body move on a hot day on a Fiero. With out the plastic panels there was no need for the space frame. It is much easier, cheaper and stronger to use a uni-body today. They have even gotten the cars to the point the windshield is part of the cars structure and gives it much rigidity.
Alfa Romeo has resurrected the space frame concept for the 4C. Carbon fibre tub, aluminum frame front & rear; covered by SMC panels. North American weight is expected to be similar to Fieros. A beauty, but a low volume niche beauty. http://www.motortrend.com/r...omeo_4c_first_drive/
Alfa Romeo has resurrected the space frame concept for the 4C. Carbon fibre tub, aluminum frame front & rear; covered by SMC panels. North American weight is expected to be similar to Fieros. A beauty, but a low volume niche beauty. http://www.motortrend.com/r...omeo_4c_first_drive/
So has McLaren gone to carbon tub but at what cost?
When I speak it is of a mass produced model not a low volume niche. There are many examples of carbon tubs etc. in the niche segments and none are cheap.
The Alfa will struggle here as it is in a segment where there are many good cars and it will prove to be expensive and lacking in performance to the others. Neat car but a tough segment.
Maybe with the advancements of Carbons getting cheaper to make with new ways to make them less labor intensive we may see a new era of cheaper sports cars.
When we see a Corvette with a all Carbon body it will be a sign that the carbons have gotten cheaper and will be spreading to other models. Tight now roofs and fenders are the limit but I expect we will see more in the C7 later.
When we see a Corvette with a all Carbon body it will be a sign that the carbons have gotten cheaper and will be spreading to other models. Tight now roofs and fenders are the limit but I expect we will see more in the C7 later.
I don't expect Carbon to take over just yet. Engineers that grew up with aluminum can't let go of it just yet, and they don't trust it so they layer it on way too thick. We built an Orion capsule out of carbon just to see if we could do it and they overbuilt it to the point that it weighed more than the aluminum version.
Also disappointed that the C7 ended up weighing more than the C6. They say it's because of the nicer interior and less hard plastic. Maybe, but I don't know how you can have all the weight saving advances and weigh more.
Make it Fiero related, yeah if it existed in 2014 it would be a unibody for sure. Aluminum and carbon fiber? Unlikely at the price point the Fiero was at. Yeah other than the 'vette GM should just give up on two seaters. There is no money to be made in low volume niche cars. And trying to turn them into high volume commuter cars is dubious. Maybe if they made it all electric and somehow cost less than $30K....maybe.
I have been looking at the Buick Encore to replace my "06 Chevy HHR as a daily driver. Chevy doesn't have anything in the HHR size anymore but a Captiva, but it is a fleet car and available only as a used car. I have had a couple of small "station wagons" in my past and they are handy Chevy has the Equinox and GMC has the Terrain, both larger sized "SUV" styles. When pricing those two, there is not much difference in MSRP when both are equipped the same ($24-27K). Maybe $200-400 more for the GMC. Both the Equinox and Terrain come with a base DI four cylinder engine and both have had issues with that engine. Poor mpg, oil consumption, timing issues and various solenoid failures as well as poor dealer service with satisfying results when complaints come in. I signed on the Equinox forum to see what complaints owners have had.
The Encore is built in S Korea at the GM Daewoo plant and the one I'd like is about $27-28K MSRP. Seems too much to me, but the model seems to be in high demand so no real deals out there. The Encore comes with a 1.4L turbo four cylinder engine.
For a Korean made car, I can get a Hyundai Tucson or Kia equivalent for $5-6K less and it comes with a 2.0L or 2.4L GDI engine.
I also have looked at a Ford Escape with a 1.6L turbo engine with an MSRP of $26K. The 2013 models have had a major recall because of engine fires.
I did look at the Sonic hatchback and that was claustrophobic for me.
My HHR has 127K miles on it and runs great and gets an average of ~30 mpg. So GMs new CEO still has some work to do for me to fork over a bunch of $$ for one of their products.
The Encore is built in S Korea at the GM Daewoo plant and the one I'd like is about $27-28K MSRP. Seems too much to me, but the model seems to be in high demand so no real deals out there. The Encore comes with a 1.4L turbo four cylinder engine.
For a Korean made car, I can get a Hyundai Tucson or Kia equivalent for $5-6K less and it comes with a 2.0L or 2.4L GDI engine.
This seems like a non-starter to me. You pay American car prices for a Korean built car. I'd rather just buy the Hyundai or Kia snd save $5K -$6K.
I don't expect Carbon to take over just yet. Engineers that grew up with aluminum can't let go of it just yet, and they don't trust it so they layer it on way too thick. We built an Orion capsule out of carbon just to see if we could do it and they overbuilt it to the point that it weighed more than the aluminum version.
Also disappointed that the C7 ended up weighing more than the C6. They say it's because of the nicer interior and less hard plastic. Maybe, but I don't know how you can have all the weight saving advances and weigh more.
Make it Fiero related, yeah if it existed in 2014 it would be a unibody for sure. Aluminum and carbon fiber? Unlikely at the price point the Fiero was at. Yeah other than the 'vette GM should just give up on two seaters. There is no money to be made in low volume niche cars. And trying to turn them into high volume commuter cars is dubious. Maybe if they made it all electric and somehow cost less than $30K....maybe.
Carbon is closer than you think. The only thing that is holding things up is the labor and time it takes to make it. There is a new process that lets them cut the time and it is a molded process. While the C7 is not going to see tub etc. yet we could see an entire body of Carbon Fiber. Also other items on normal cars like mirrors, doors, fenders and other items will be replaced with it. The entire industry is working with it and expect to have cost under control soon.
Ad for the Encore it is a really nice car. You have to toss out the made in Korea thinking as no matter where it is built it would be to the same standards. The best example Is the Chevy Cruze as it is built here and overseas and the car is the same and to a high degree of quality for what you pay.
Also if you have not driven one you would easily understand where the money is going as it is a very upscale trim and very Buick quiet. Many people underestimated this car as even GM did and supplies are short since it outsold expectations. It is not my kind of car but it is a very good and vertical kind of vehicle.
GM is targeting Verano and Encore at people who want a quiet luxury car but do not want to pay $40-50K for one. Also it is for people who want a SUV like vehicle that gets great MPG. The one flaw of the car is it is very underpowered. GM has a new engine coming to fix this but it does need a little more HP.
Trust me it is a step above Kia and Hyundai in terms of level of luxury don't let the size or origin fool you. Besides GM is leaving Korea due to the risk of war and the unions so it may just end up here built with the Sonic.
In a Global market you have to remember that where a car is built has no effect on the quality of the car. Global cars are built to global standards anymore so there is no lacking in a car built in Korea and Mexico vs. Canada or USA. The quality lies only in the design of that particular brand and model.
If you want to replace the HHR I would at least wait a little longer as there is a new Equinox, Terrain and Buick all on the same platform coming and should give you three price levels and standard of trim to choose from. I have seen the Buick and it looks nice as a mule so it should only get better with the final product.
As for Hyundai and Kia. Often they are cheaper but you also get what you pay for too often. My buddy works at Hyundai and tells me all the messes they see. He can get a discount on a Hyundai but drive Chevy.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-22-2013).]
In a Global market you have to remember that where a car is built has no effect on the quality of the car. Global cars are built to global standards anymore so there is no lacking in a car built in Korea and Mexico vs. Canada or USA. The quality lies only in the design of that particular brand and model.
If you want to replace the HHR I would at least wait a little longer as there is a new Equinox, Terrain and Buick all on the same platform coming and should give you three price levels and standard of trim to choose from. I have seen the Buick and it looks nice as a mule so it should only get better with the final product.
As for Hyundai and Kia. Often they are cheaper but you also get what you pay for too often. My buddy works at Hyundai and tells me all the messes they see. He can get a discount on a Hyundai but drive Chevy.
I'm not knocking cars made outside the USA... Even though I've bought a string of GM badged vehicles, almost all of them were made outside the USA... Mexico, Canada, Japan, Korea, etc. My daily is an Aveo and it has over 100,000 virtually trouble free miles. The thing is I paid Daewoo price for it at $12K brand new out the door. At $20K to $30K I would be a lot less happier with it. In other words I'm cheap.
But I am dreaming about the C7. Other than the Corvette and the Fiero cars are a commodity to me and I can't see paying house prices for a car. I'm sure the build quality on the Buick is better than the Kia or Hyundai, but cheap people like me are not the target audience. I am the person that would pay $12K for the Chevy badged version, so that's why they won't offer it. They would rather push me into an Equinox. But being cheap I'd go the other way into a Sonic. I'm sure the Sonic is a nice car. If I had to replace my Aveo today I'd go with the Sonic, but I'm dreaming of the Corvette as my next daily driver.
Don't make "woman" jokes about it either like I did... Apparently the staff of GMAuthority.com don't find it very funny. I wasn't trying to be hilarious, just crack a couple laughs, but someone got butthurt.
I'm on there right now chatting with one of the admins, of which I find hilariously entertaining in my own opinion. me thinks much fun to be had over the next week or two with GM authority page.
I'm not knocking cars made outside the USA... Even though I've bought a string of GM badged vehicles, almost all of them were made outside the USA... Mexico, Canada, Japan, Korea, etc. My daily is an Aveo and it has over 100,000 virtually trouble free miles. The thing is I paid Daewoo price for it at $12K brand new out the door. At $20K to $30K I would be a lot less happier with it. In other words I'm cheap.
But I am dreaming about the C7. Other than the Corvette and the Fiero cars are a commodity to me and I can't see paying house prices for a car. I'm sure the build quality on the Buick is better than the Kia or Hyundai, but cheap people like me are not the target audience. I am the person that would pay $12K for the Chevy badged version, so that's why they won't offer it. They would rather push me into an Equinox. But being cheap I'd go the other way into a Sonic. I'm sure the Sonic is a nice car. If I had to replace my Aveo today I'd go with the Sonic, but I'm dreaming of the Corvette as my next daily driver.
I think you missed my point. There is not Daewoo per say anymore as it is a part of GM and GM is a part of it.
A Cruze built by Daewoo is the same as one built in Lordstown Ohio. Same for a Sonic built by Daewoo in Korea us the same as one built in Michigan.
Daewoo for the most part is just designing parts of the smaller cars but they do not have 100% input on them. Nor does Chevy have 100% input in all but a couple of their cars anymore. Each branch of GM has skills, duties and abilities that the others do not so they merge to build a platform or model. The Global GM is working as a single company now and not so much as many separate companies building their own version of each platform.
Also you must keep in mind Daewoo Is not the same company as it was in the past just as Kia and Hyundai. I can remember Hyundai used to be the Korean word for walking once the calipers would freeze up on the brakes every 10K miles.
For the most part the design people at the Daewoo end are in the system now and GM is on the way to closing most of the plants. They just can not deal with the unions much more as they are getting very violent and disruptive. Also the issues with N Korea are much worse than what many in our government would like people to know. The guy just off'd his uncle so you can imagine what he feels for South Korea.
Anyways you buy a cheap car it is going to be better today than in the past if you would note the change in the Aveo/Sprint vs. todays Sonic. But you are still not going to get a top line car for that price. Even the Sonic is seen as about the best in class and the others from Nissan and Toyota are found lacking in quality features.
GM really wanted to take Chevy Global but Europe has rejected the name and while they could force the issue the economic climate is just not right to force the issue in such a competitive market there now. As for Holden the name may stick but they will be a Chevy with a Lion.
Buick and Opel will continue to share models and even some may find a way to be come part of Holden.
I hope you can see what I mean. You are not paying Chevy or Daewoo prices you are paying GM prices as it is not a true global company. It is no longer where they make just an agreement to buy a model from another brand and rename it with a few styling tricks as in the past. Daewoo was purchased fully and is now fully integrated into GM just as Chevy Buick and Cadillac. The names are more or less remnants of the past and do not really reflect the true nature of really going on. Note the staff at Daewoo are very capable as they did have part in some of GM best selling vehicles like the Cruze Equinox and Sonic.
Even while some snipe at the Buicks being designed in China you never hear them complain about the Camaro being designed by a Korean Stylist.
Anyways here is some hints to the GM future in a Holden Spot. You may note that the one in the center has a Panamera look to it and could be the Buick Mark Ruess has hinted at with RWD and AWD. The other cars there could also hint at other Holeden and Chevy models. The photos on the wall to the right have a Code R like nose on them only with a Holden bar and not the Chevy bar the Code R showed.
On the pad in front of him is a Coupe. Could this be a Alpha based Monaro based on a Camaro?
Add to this the car in the studio behind the guys head. Not sure what it is. While all of these are just concept drawings it will be interesting to see what comes of this.
What you see there may just be built and sold here as a Chevy or Buick.
Zoom in and check this photo out as it was a little GM gift for Christmas.
To the others who want to snipe let them finish these more so you can really see where this is going these are only hints in drawings and there is a lot more to come yet.
I think you missed my point. There is not Daewoo per say anymore as it is a part of GM and GM is a part of it.
A Cruze built by Daewoo is the same as one built in Lordstown Ohio. Same for a Sonic built by Daewoo in Korea us the same as one built in Michigan.
By the way Merry Christmas Scott!
Thanks, hope you had a good one.
I think I got your point. I'm basically agreeing. I used to be a person that wouldn't even look at a car built outside of Detroit. Now I'm looking for best value. I don't care about badging, so I'm not hung up on Buick versus Chevy. My point is the opposite, I'm not willing to pay more for a badge. I'm perfectly happy with Chevy, it doesn't need a Buick or Caddy badge for me to be happy.
Now let me ask what does GM have in store for the full sized Van market? They are about to be left in the dust with the Fiat/Ram vans coming out and the Ford Transit both as high top competitors to the Mercedes Sprinter. GM will be the only ones without a high top van. Winnebago already has jumped on the Ram chassis. I hope GM is not caught asleep at the wheel and lose the van conversion and cab/chassis market altogether. There must be some profit there as they spend next to nothing to update the vans from year to year. I probably will replace my Av with a Van conversion since the full sized trucks don't appeal to me.
I think I got your point. I'm basically agreeing. I used to be a person that wouldn't even look at a car built outside of Detroit. Now I'm looking for best value. I don't care about badging, so I'm not hung up on Buick versus Chevy. My point is the opposite, I'm not willing to pay more for a badge. I'm perfectly happy with Chevy, it doesn't need a Buick or Caddy badge for me to be happy.
Now let me ask what does GM have in store for the full sized Van market? They are about to be left in the dust with the Fiat/Ram vans coming out and the Ford Transit both as high top competitors to the Mercedes Sprinter. GM will be the only ones without a high top van. Winnebago already has jumped on the Ram chassis. I hope GM is not caught asleep at the wheel and lose the van conversion and cab/chassis market altogether. There must be some profit there as they spend next to nothing to update the vans from year to year. I probably will replace my Av with a Van conversion since the full sized trucks don't appeal to me.
Well GM is well aware of the lack of new vans but they have been delayed and down on the things to do list.
GM has more than a couple vans coming but little info has been given out and also there is not many people working hard to get Spy shots of them since there is not a big call for them.
GM us going to rebadge a Nissan van for a couple years and it will fill the need. The Full size van is still holding it's own for now but will be replaced with a new model in the near future. The Bankruptcy and Refinance has put a lot of things behind and it is just now they are getting on to the smaller projects. They first had to get the trucks done and the Alpha program going. Also the second gen Cruze was a priority and should show up next year.
GM is also going to re enter the mid size heavy truck market as there is a lot of money there and only Ford really has much for it.
There is a hell of a lot going on but since GM got the money they needed there has been little need to leak future plans to keep staggering low stock prices propped up. People will be surprised at just what all will be popping up in the next 5 years. Many of the people I could always go to for hints at future products have all gone dark. Al Oppenhiser is one of the few that still will give a good hint now and then but even he is no where like it used to be.
Just look at the lengths they kept the Z/28 quiet as they even used code names with in GM do other GM people had no clue of the program. Pretty much anymore you see leaks only when GM wants them seen. The one rare acceptation was the Stingray as it was leaked a year early but GM addressed this and that will not happen again at least with that employee.
GM has plans for the tall vans and for the Ford Connect as they have seen where both have made gains in the market. The Connect is more of a worry than any of them. Also the Ford Transit will be the new target for tall vans.
As for the Nissan rebadged van it will just fill the slot till they are ready with the one they have in the works. A couple years should do it.
Anyways the photos above should give you an idea just how diverse the thinking is at GM now as these are all cars that we should pay attention too. It is possible one or two of these may hit the streets and hints from others may just end up in production as part of their styling.
Really listen to Mark Ruess and Al as they both will speak GM talk. They may not say right out what is going on but the hints they have may lead you to where this is going. Also Scott Settlmire or Fbodfather has been one to give hints to what is going on. Often they will give you the puzzle pieces and let you put them together. These guys are the best inside info for GM products.
As for names and what you get GM is getting things back to where you get what you pay for. Chevy will be the value leader with a wide range of product and performance. Buick will be mid priced luxury with freatures that you might find on a Cadillac but not all of them. Cadillac has finally moved up past Lexus and Acura and will target the Benz, BMW and higher end Audi. With each and every new model it will be a much higher level of luxury and performance. Right not they have proven to be able to run with the big dogs and now just need to cultivate the image.
In the past Olds, Saturn and Pontiac really had no space to work and they all suffered for it. Olds was not my fathers Oldsmobile anymore and was just a restyled Buick. Pontiac was more a Chevy with different styling. The real killer was Pontiac used to mean performance in every model and they really only had two real performance models at the end and neither were going to save them. Add to the none of these brands had a global market and it was the end.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-26-2013).]
I'm on there right now chatting with one of the admins, of which I find hilariously entertaining in my own opinion. me thinks much fun to be had over the next week or two with GM authority page.
First there is a bunch of changes coming to Buick over the next 5 years and what she does in major product divisions today will not really show up In product for 5 more years. Besides Mark Reuss will be calling the global products shots.
First there is a bunch of changes coming to Buick over the next 5 years and what she does in major product divisions today will not really show up In product for 5 more years. Besides Mark Reuss will be calling the global products shots.
#1 he gave me current market figures when we're supposed to be talking about the future. #2 buick's main selling vehicle was the new regal, everything else went down. and the regal was the most sold vehicle by GM this year. #3 he is saying the buying demographic for the brand is at the lowest age its ever been at; yet the average is 59 (from 62) #4 the fun and youthful rides are still too expensive for any mere 18-30 year old putting themselves through school while working a job, regardless of if they're living with mom/dad (or both) in this economy. #5 im pretty sure the youth want cheap and fun cars, with some visual appeal that I just don't see in any of GM's current lineups...
(the real main point, and it was a joke because I have no life and troll constantlyl) vvv Maybe I'm being a little biased here but none of GM's vehicles are a Pontiac Fiero
#1 he gave me current market figures when we're supposed to be talking about the future. #2 buick's main selling vehicle was the new regal, everything else went down. and the regal was the most sold vehicle by GM this year. #3 he is saying the buying demographic for the brand is at the lowest age its ever been at; yet the average is 59 (from 62) #4 the fun and youthful rides are still too expensive for any mere 18-30 year old putting themselves through school while working a job, regardless of if they're living with mom/dad (or both) in this economy. #5 im pretty sure the youth want cheap and fun cars, with some visual appeal that I just don't see in any of GM's current lineups...
(the real main point, and it was a joke because I have no life and troll constantlyl) vvv Maybe I'm being a little biased here but none of GM's vehicles are a Pontiac Fiero
Not sure what ground you both covered here but when speaking Buick you need to start in China first. This is where all the money is being made and what ever they sell here is just add on sales. Buick is big there and that is no underestimation.
Second Buick has yet to get any new post Chapter 11 product yet. All the cars they have are just left over Opel of pre Chapter 11 cars. The Is a lot of new product coming and it will make sense once it is here. In other words you ain't seen nothing yet.
As for Pontiac they only had two performance cars and neither were cheap.
GM does need to get some real smaller performance cars out like a more powerful Sonic and even see if they can do an Opel Astra Hatch with the OPC package. But even then anything GM builds with any speed is going to be over $20K as that is where everyone is today.
There just will not be any more 2 seat GM cars other than the Vette in the near future. Even if the Fiero had lived I would have been shocked if it made another 5 years. The market for 2 seats are limited at best and very few last if they are sold cheap.
GM needs a Mini or GTI killer. They had the makings with the Cobalt SS but did not continue it when they finally got the money to invest in a better car. I have a HHR SS now and I just love the thing. With the GMPD Tune it sits right at 300 HP and is still under the GM warranty. It is fun shocking Mustangs when you keep right with them. The only real issue is the FWD as even with launch control it just wants to spin as the weight transfer goes right to the back. I have hit 23 PSI boost and broke the tires loose at over 50 MPH because of the weight transfer.
The first step of the GM turnaround will take 10 years. We still have a lot to see come yet and have only really seen a few of the new models. In time they will get to the more niche models but firs they had to pay the bills with the daily drivers. Toyota make all their money on boring sedans as do most other makers so GM need to get these right first. The new Cruze is near and the Malibu will also get redone in the not too distant future.
While GM will have some fun cars coming the real issue is none will be available to young people because of price and insurance. This is not much that is new as even when I was young I would get nailed for any new performance model. In fact I ended up with the Fiero as the insure was high but only half of a TA. But afford ability of new cars is an issue for all makers right now.
