I know Cali was goading you with the 165 MPH thing, but I thought it was interesting that you made this statement.
It should matter. It's hard to understand, but the vapor in that picture would be in the exact same position on a stock bodied Fiero GT, with a stock spoiler. The IMSA might be a widebody with a whale tale, but the IMSA has the aero nose, which has the same angle as the stock nose, and it has the stock windshield rake, and the roof line is exactly the same. The whale tale spoiler on the IMSA is very similar to the stock spoiler in the effect it has on air flow. It's just a bit more of the same effect, and over a wider area, given it's a wide body.
I realized what he was doing...
Also like I said, I am realizing how little I know about this topic... the Superbird video you linked crystallized some things for me...
So you also think a rear spoiler or wing on a Kia or 4 cyl Colbalt has an effect too. You have to understand that manufacturers of cars add this type of crap as styling gimicks. Any real data that might show any advange, is so tiny, its not really worth mentioning. Someone do a test for us. drive your Fiero as fast as you can get it, even 5 miles of straight on the freeway. Take the front bumper cover off and do the same thing. Ill bet it barely has any effect at all. You dont need any kind of data to show that a bus will react a lot worse in high wind than any passenger car. If someone shoots you in the azz, you dont need a doctor to examine you and tell you that you have been shot in the azz, lol. Nascar has the old style trunk spoiler now again. Ever notice that a lot of times after a wreck that tears it up, they barely slow down. They lose a few mph and thats at over 150 mph. At legal speed limits, NONE of the ground effects or spoilers do anything but look cool. Some designs may keep the dirt off your tail light lenses and thats about it. Cars of the Fiero period loved sticking spoiler, wing and scoops on everywhere just to look faster. I put a rear old style lip spoiler on my Bullet Mustang, just because it looked like a '68. It didnt go any faster, get any better gas mileage, handle any better at all. It did absolutely nothing except I thought it looked neat.
As for Daytonas, their horizontal wing, was adjustable up and down to give more or less downforce and it did enough to feel it....if you went 150 mph. It was above the roof, so it was directly into the airstream and worked just like the elevators on the tail of an airplane. At 60, you could put it straight up and down if you wanted and do nothing more than opening all your windows would.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-20-2014).]
I'm there with ya attracts lots of unwanted attention... but oh well, seems like its a 50/50 thing on the cobalt boards, but Ilike both cars with the spoilers.
------------------ 3800 SC/IC Formula whines more than your girl... 12.7@113 08 Cobalt SS TC - ZZP tuned, K&N SRI, 6k HID's 13.31@107
[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 01-20-2014).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: So you also think a rear spoiler or wing on a Kia or 4 cyl Colbalt has an effect too. You have to understand that manufacturers of cars add this type of crap as styling gimicks. Any real data that might show any advange, is so tiny, its not really worth mentioning. Someone do a test for us. drive your Fiero as fast as you can get it, even 5 miles of straight on the freeway. Take the front bumper cover off and do the same thing. Ill bet it barely has any effect at all. You dont need any kind of data to show that a bus will react a lot worse in high wind than any passenger car. If someone shoots you in the azz, you dont need a doctor to examine you and tell you that you have been shot in the azz, lol. Nascar has the old style trunk spoiler now again. Ever notice that a lot of times after a wreck that tears it up, they barely slow down. They lose a few mph and thats at over 150 mph. At legal speed limits, NONE of the ground effects or spoilers do anything but look cool. Some designs may keep the dirt off your tail light lenses and thats about it. Cars of the Fiero period loved sticking spoiler, wing and scoops on everywhere just to look faster. I put a rear old style lip spoiler on my Bullet Mustang, just because it looked like a '68. It didnt go any faster, get any better gas mileage, handle any better at all. It did absolutely nothing except I thought it looked neat.
That's right. All those wind tunnel tests have the fan generating 200 MPH winds. That's why the people holding the wands are standing straight up.
Just because you're ignorant of the effects, and unwilling to measure them properly, does not mean the effects aren't there. The tiny lip spoilers on the Cruze and Volt have an effect, just as the lip spoiler on the Corvette ZR-1 does. You don't need to drive 200 MPH to save a few cents every mile you drive, and have those savings make a significant impact on your wallet over several years.
It has nothing to do with believing an effect exists or not. This isn't a religion. You don't need faith in the spoiler, for the spoiler to exist. It is simple fact, that has been proven several times over.
You want someone to test? How about just doing some simple math? You said the "0.4 MPG increase from the spoiler being there" is insignificant. So, we'll assume that is what the difference in MPG is. 87 octane is currently around $3.249, at least in this area. A stock '87 GT in good running condition gets around 22-24 MPG combined city/highway, so we'll 23 as the starting MPG for a car without a spoiler.
If you put 1000 miles on the car every month, then without the spoiler, you will use 43.478 gallons of fuel, which will cost $141.26. With the spoiler, and an 0.4 MPG increase as a result of the lower CD, you'll use 42.735 gallons of fuel, which comes out to about $138.85; a savings of $2.41 in that month, $28.92 for the year, and $144.60 over 5 years. For an old rich white dude like yourself, it might not matter. For some other people, saving $30 over a year can be significant. And this is all assuming the 0.4 MPG increase is the correct and accurate figure, and that the price of fuel doesn't change. For all we know, it could be a 10% increase, which would be 2.3 MPG for the given 23 MPG average combined. Such a change would be $12.84 saved per month, or $154.08 per year, $9.48 more than the 5 year return on the assumed 0.4 MPG increase. Someone who drives very consistently and in a manner to optimize fuel economy, can probably do even better than that.
You may not like the looks of the spoiler on the car. You might be some rich old white dude who doesn't care about fuel economy. That's all fine and dandy, but making ignorant claims that all spoilers on cars are purely for styling, and they have absolutely no measurable or significant effect on the vehicle, is just asinine. Please stop trying to push your personal preference by making such statements that have absolutely no supporting scientific evidence at all. Your lack of ability to feel the change, or drive consistently, or measure it in a proper manner, does not equate to the statement you made, as being fact. Far from it, rather.
And no... with 25" tires, a top gear of 1.0 and final drive ratio of 3.33... not to mention the fact that the TCC unlocks at WOT... I have not had it up to 165 MPH.
Here are some interesting numbers in the March 2014 Motor Trend: The 2015 Nissan GT-R Nismo fascias, side sills & wing provide 220 pounds of downforce. The 2014 Jaguar XKR-S GT wing, dive planes, spats & splitter: 320 pounds of downforce. Both quoted at 186 mph.
I had it up over an indicated 100MPH before... but knowing what I know now about the condition of some of the components I've replaced since then... that was a really stupid idea.
Its not of any consequence to me if it costs $138 or $142 to drive a car for a month. That difference barely buys you a sandwich. Again, while technically its a benefit, the amount of the benefit isnt worth mentioning. If your 20' boat is really only 19' 10" do you really feel cheated ? No matter if you have the official data to back up any of it, it still really dont mean anything in reality. My old gf who drove 20 miles and used $5 worth of gas to save $1.00 on soap powder uses your math too.
Why dont you put on an even larger wing and just glide between hilltops and save a lot more gas....? Im sure mathmaticly you could come up with the area of wing that would lift it. You just dont want to face it that the wing is there for looks and barely anything else. The engineers now mount all windshield and back glass flush, without the moldings they used to, to save gas. Figure out how much that actually saves and get back to me.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-21-2014).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Why dont you put on an even larger wing and just glide between hilltops and save a lot more gas....? Im sure mathmaticly you could come up with the area of wing that would lift it. You just dont want to face it that the wing is there for looks and barely anything else. The engineers now mount all windshield and back glass flush, without the moldings they used to, to save gas. Figure out how much that actually saves and get back to me.
Yay hyperbole!
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-21-2014).]
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Its not of any consequence to me if it costs $138 or $142 to drive a car for a month. That difference barely buys you a sandwich. Again, while technically its a benefit, the amount of the benefit isnt worth mentioning. If your 20' boat is really only 19' 10" do you really feel cheated ? No matter if you have the official data to back up any of it, it still really dont mean anything in reality. My old gf who drove 20 miles and used $5 worth of gas to save $1.00 on soap powder uses your math too.
Why dont you put on an even larger wing and just glide between hilltops and save a lot more gas....? Im sure mathmaticly you could come up with the area of wing that would lift it. You just dont want to face it that the wing is there for looks and barely anything else. The engineers now mount all windshield and back glass flush, without the moldings they used to, to save gas. Figure out how much that actually saves and get back to me.
Why don't you put on mittens and try to type? The random characters might make more sense.
It's not my math. It's standard math to calculate MPG and cost of fuel. Anyone over the age of 6 should be able to do the math. And that doesn't calculate the reduction in emissions over the span of the month or year, that results from using less fuel. The benefits add up. The more people using less fuel, the better.
If I do put a larger "wing" on my car it won't be because I'm trying to save gas. It would be more to troll idiots like you.
Nobody cares if you think it does nothing. What you think and what is fact, are not always the same thing. The OP asked for information, not opinion. You don't know the OP's financial needs. Maybe saving $5-10/month in fuel costs is important to them. Maybe it's not. That's for them to decide, not you. Presenting the actual data and facts allows that person to make an informed decision. If they choose to remove it because they don't like the looks, then that's their decision.
The benefit may not be worth mentioning to you, but it is worth mentioning and documenting as a reference for those who would like to use all the factual information there is, to make an informed decision about their car.
Although I think the Fiero wing is one of the best looking factory wings out there, I like it even better with Stealth Wing Stands.
Does anybody know anything about how this mod changes down force, wind resistance, drag coefficient, or gas mileage?
Thanks, Jonathan
The spoiler isn't designed for down force, so there will be no useful change to that with or without the spoiler, with or without stealth wing stands.
I don't think there's any data for stock spoiler with stealth stands, or the IMSA style spoiler on a stock body, or the lip spoilers. However, given how all three spoilers are designed, I'd expect them all to perform similarly in a wind tunnel test, and thus have the same CD reduction of 0.01 as the stock spoiler has on the car.
I'd love to see wind tunnel testing of all the different spoilers and other body mods available for Fieros though. Especially if they could be done in this tunnel:
Wouldn't down force be more of a product of the PLACEMENT of a factory wing? I mean if you took a factory wing and stuck it up into the air stream and got it set to an advantagous angle, wouldn't it produce down force?
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Wouldn't down force be more of a product of the PLACEMENT of a factory wing? I mean if you took a factory wing and stuck it up into the air stream and got it set to an advantagous angle, wouldn't it produce down force?
Jonathan
I guess if you tilted it forward a bit and put it on 26" tall stands, maybe you'd get some down force. But it wasn't designed to be that high or used for making down force. It was designed to control air flow around the rear of the vehicle behind the decklid, and provide a stylish look that fit with the body lines of the car. You sure wouldn't be using stealth wing stands to get that. And you probably wouldn't want to use the factory spoiler. More likely, you'd use an aluminum race spoiler that was designed for that purpose.
Wouldn't down force be more of a product of the PLACEMENT of a factory wing? I mean if you took a factory wing and stuck it up into the air stream and got it set to an advantagous angle, wouldn't it produce down force?
Jonathan
yes it would....and it would increase with speed. Lower speeds would be pretty ineffectual, high speed...yes.
Why don't you put on mittens and try to type? The random characters might make more sense.
It's not my math. It's standard math to calculate MPG and cost of fuel. Anyone over the age of 6 should be able to do the math. And that doesn't calculate the reduction in emissions over the span of the month or year, that results from using less fuel. The benefits add up. The more people using less fuel, the better.
If I do put a larger "wing" on my car it won't be because I'm trying to save gas. It would be more to troll idiots like you.
Nobody cares if you think it does nothing. What you think and what is fact, are not always the same thing. The OP asked for information, not opinion. You don't know the OP's financial needs. Maybe saving $5-10/month in fuel costs is important to them. Maybe it's not. That's for them to decide, not you. Presenting the actual data and facts allows that person to make an informed decision. If they choose to remove it because they don't like the looks, then that's their decision.
The benefit may not be worth mentioning to you, but it is worth mentioning and documenting as a reference for those who would like to use all the factual information there is, to make an informed decision about their car.
Talk about calling the kettle black. So what if I might hit a random unwanted letter or two...i have a touchy keyboard. Sue me idiot. Saving a dollar a week wouldnt even have much meaning to a homeless person. Im not rich, but I throw away that much a month in loose change. Id say if you went out in my driveway right now on your hands and knees you would probably come up with that much. Unless you make $5 @ week, $1 is nothing. What, are you living off the school lunch money mom gives you ? My local bank pays me interest on my checking account balance....it usually amounts to .07 (cents) a month. Ill save that up for a new car.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Talk about calling the kettle black. So what if I might hit a random unwanted letter or two...i have a touchy keyboard. Sue me idiot. Saving a dollar a week wouldnt even have much meaning to a homeless person. Im not rich, but I throw away that much a month in loose change. Id say if you went out in my driveway right now on your hands and knees you would probably come up with that much. Unless you make $5 @ week, $1 is nothing. What, are you living off the school lunch money mom gives you ? My local bank pays me interest on my checking account balance....it usually amounts to .07 (cents) a month. Ill save that up for a new car.
I wasn't mocking your spelling. I was mocking your incessant nonsense.
You must have a lot of experience being homeless and having absolutely no money, too though. It's right up there with all your aerodynamics knowledge from all your experience driving a Fiero with no spoiler on it. $1 is totally of no benefit to all those homeless people either. Or all the starving people all over the world.
And yeah, my mom gives me a six figure lunch allowance. It's why I'm so fat and act like the entire world revolves around me, because my personal opinion about the Fiero spoiler, and my own lack of value in the dollar, are the only thing that matters in this thread.
attracts lots of unwanted attention... but oh well, seems like its a 50/50 thing on the cobalt boards, but Ilike both cars with the spoilers.
