I have a 85 gt notch back with the stock spoiler an I just don't see that it help's any thing but set there an look bulky. Even when I'm running down the freeway an its raining I can see water just siting on it at 70 mile's an hr. So what do you all think? Jump in an tell me the pro's or con's.... thank's
Believe or not that spoiler helps minimize any air backwash coming up the rear of the vehicle. It works very different than you would expect it to. Is it a critical item, no it isn't, but it does do a little good.
The Whale Tail IMSA type on my car manages the air even more, in the same way (back draft air), keeping air flow around the rear of car cleaner, reduce drag, and lift.
You're going to hear a lot of opinions on this, but I'll tell you how I ultimately feel about them;
They're essentially a large chunk of oversized body work. They're pretty big; bigger than what was thrown on GM F-bodies during the 80s. It ultimately amazes me how much people WITHOUT them always seem to WANT them, since in all honesty they're bulky, pretty ugly, and don't really provide any sort of downforce on street driven Fieros. Plus most Fieros look WAAAAYYYY better without them - especially fastbacks. With all the Fieros I've owned that have had spoilers I've removed the spoilers and stashed them away. My Formula looked super great without it. My fastback GT looks fabulous without it.
Remember that you actually have air that travels both over and under the vehicle. Air travels over the car normally, but air also travels under the car and up through the decklid vent area. In a way, the air coming up through the vents pushes the air traveling over the car upwards (creates a sort of 'negative' air space around the window area). Originally the spoiler was installed on the 1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car with the Super Duty to supply some rear aero downforce on the car. The pace car replicas picked up the styling, the '85 GT would later pick up the spoiler, and then of course a whole lot of Fieros after that got the spoiler.
However people have ran plenty of 'aero tests' with the spoiler and it has shown to have some effectiveness on Fieros, but for me I just see it as causing unnecessary rear blind spots and not adding any sort of downward force as I rarely get above 70 MPH sustained speeds.
Unfortunately just removing the spoiler can cause some issues with Fieros equipped with them. The decklids on both notchbacks and fastbacks with spoilers have a higher tension load on the decklid springs to hold the decklid open with the weight of the spoiler. If you remove the spoiler the decklid - when opened - can swing upward with tremendous force. It essentially means that at the very least if you have the decklid release option you will need to disconnect it, as you can snap the entire decklid in half if it flies open a few times (it can happen if you've never seen it happen before, and it's VERY ugly when it does happen...).
Conversely, adding a spoiler to a car without one can add the opposite effect. The tension load on the decklid springs are so low they cannot support the weight of the spoiler. The easiest remedy is to add a decklid strut.
[This message has been edited by Fiero84Freak (edited 01-12-2014).]
You're going to hear a lot of opinions on this, but I'll tell you how I ultimately feel about them;
...
Conversely, adding a spoiler to a car without one can add the opposite effect. The tension load on the decklid springs are so low they cannot support the weight of the spoiler. The easiest remedy is to add a decklid strut.
Ultimately it boils down to looks. Yes, the Fiero probably had the largest production spoiler since the Superbird. But I took a stock spoiler added taller wings stands and extended the wingtips. Yes it's gaudy, and yes I have TWO pneumatic struts to hold it open, (kind of).
I think the same that my 85gt notch look's better with out it. An my deck lid open's nice an stay's up with no push rod. Also by takeing it off my car droped 6 or 7 pound's. Thank's for all the input, keep the rubber on the ground...
Opinions on Fieros with or without spoilers will vary. My two GT have them and I like the looks better with them, without the spoiler, the car looks naked. They are not functional at normal highway driving.
I agree that fastback Fieros look better without the rear wing. Even so, I can't bring myself to remove the one from my own GT. I think they are one of the best looking factory wings out there! I prefer all my notchbacks to have them. I really like the stealth wing stands, too. For anyone who doesn't like thier rear wings, Corvette guys will happily take them off your hands.
My opinion, Fastbacks have a nice flow where the wing sort of breaks it up in the rear. I like that constant flow without the wing. Notchies, on the other hand, look liitle bare in the rear and I think look better with a wing. All Fieros are beautiful and eveybody has there own opinion, mine is usually right.
The rear wing doesn't provide any meaningful downforce. It does clean up the airflow at the back of the car, though. It has to be on the pedastles to get high enough to be in the airflow enough to work. As you noticed the air under the wing is pretty stagnant. Without it, you get a lot of turbulence behind the rear window.
It's primarily cosmetic, but it was designed to have some level of function. It might make the car a bit more stable a very high speed.
The rear wing doesn't provide any meaningful downforce. It does clean up the airflow at the back of the car, though. It has to be on the pedastles to get high enough to be in the airflow enough to work. As you noticed the air under the wing is pretty stagnant. Without it, you get a lot of turbulence behind the rear window.
It's primarily cosmetic, but it was designed to have some level of function. It might make the car a bit more stable a very high speed.
Both the Factory Wing/Spoiler and the IMSA (coupe and fastback) were developed in GM's Wind Tunnel. All Manage Air Flow better than vehicle without the wing/spoiler. I think of them more as a Spoiler as the term Wing just confuses people in the way it works. I agree with a lot of people that these Spoilers do not offer much of a benefit at posted highway speeds. However if you push above 125 mph with a car that's in really good shape, the car should remain very stable, if not hug the road better. My Yellow GT with IMSA Whale Tail feels more glued to the road the faster I go above 125 mph, I've always lifted off the gas at 165 mph, but that doesn't mean it couldn't go faster. The Factory Spoiler at 165 mph, car still felt good, but not as planted as with the IMSA.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 01-15-2014).]
From my reading the Fiero spoiler serves mostly to assist the detached air coming off the roof over the deck-lid, reducing drag by splicing the updraft from the rear surface with the air flowing over the top...
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-13-2014).]
I have an 86 fastback GT with a wing. I discovered my engine oil leak because of the droplets all over my rear bumper and deck lid. Needless to say, the air currents at the rear of a Fiero can do strange things.
From my reading the Fiero spoiler serves mostly to assist the detached air over the deck-lid, reducing drag by splicing the updraft from the rear surface with the air flowing over the top...
The way I understand it (as you cannot see it unless in a Wind Tunnel with smoke screen nozzle), it reduces back wash uplift air that comes from underside of rear quarter panels, and primarily along back of vehicle. That type of turbulent air currents causes parasitic drag as well as lift, the air can also flow high enough that it affects what I call the jet stream coming off the roof top. So it addresses 3 issues that do take place with the vehicle design. Most of the rear deck lid area in a negative pressure zone, which naturally draws air currents to it. Again, it's not a critical item unless you press past legal limits on the road.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 01-13-2014).]
If you're looking for more than just opinions, Car & Driver Magazine (Feb '86) stated that the rear wing by itself lowered the coefficient of drag (Cd) from 0.35 to 0.34 on the GT, which is not insignificant in the world of aerodynamics.
If you're looking for more than just opinions, Car & Driver Magazine (Feb '86) stated that the rear wing by itself lowered the coefficient of drag (Cd) from 0.35 to 0.34 on the GT, which is not insignificant in the world of aerodynamics.
So the main question is: What speed was used to establish those numbers ? Drag increases with speed.
At speeds approaching 175MPH, it's nice to know that the wing will keep my tail end down!!
In all honestly, it doesn't do anything that I'll notice, but I do like the look on the notchies. I was always partial to factory spoiler's. It's the aftermarket sky scrappers that make me cringe.
This subject has been covered repeatedly over the years. A forum search should turn up a few threads (from several years ago) with actual aerodynamic tests and stuff.
I prefer the luggage rack on the notchbacks - it's really handy for pulling the cars backwards in the barn... Aerodynamic effects might be measurable over 200 kph... Bloozeberry?
I've been looking at my '84SE for almost 30 years now so a Fiero without the rack seems to be missing something. My '86 coupe has it too - it was a basic coupe but the optional luggage rack is on it (along with other optional items I've added).
The standard wing on my Formula seems a little oversized, but not as much as a Porsche 911 whale tail or the Plymouth Road Runner Superbird. Wikipedia: For nearly 30 years the mathematic formula used to determine the exact height of the enormous wing was thought to be a highly guarded Chrysler secret. However, in the 1990s a retired Chrysler project engineer admitted publicly that the height was determined in much simpler fashion: it was designed to provide clearance for the trunklid to open freely.
If you refer to Brookland's Fiero 1984-1988 The technical analysis indicates that - a bare bones 1984 Fiero has a 0.460 coefficient of drag -addition of the aero nose dropped the Cd to 0.370 -addition of the rear wing and extending the rocker panels reduced the CD to 0.350
Originally posted by FieroTony: In all honestly, it doesn't do anything that I'll notice, but I do like the look on the notchies. I was always partial to factory spoiler's. It's the aftermarket sky scrappers that make me cringe.
You'll notice the MPG difference over time if you remove it, and find you're spending more on fuel, if you keep track of it before and after.
Lets just put it this way, On most fieros no, ones making a lot of power yes... But, the fiero spoiler is for looks, way to flimsy for high speeds.
Wrong. But whatever you're expecting it to do may not be what it's doing.
You don't need to be making a lot of power to have your car benefit from lower drag coefficient. As already stated a few times in this thread, and many times in other ones, the spoiler does help with air flow in the rear of the car and lowers the CD. This won't result in a huge increase of downforce that one might need in an F1 car, but it does help with fuel economy, and vehicle stability.
In the real world, its not much more than a decoration. While I grant (due to some test results) it does improve some numbers a bit. None of those are enough to make any kind of difference to anyone. ie/ is it really a big deal to get + .4 of a mile in gas mileage ? If its a daily winter driver, it does give you something to tie a ski rope to.
The Official Pontiac stance back in the day the wind improved the air coming off the car in the back. To you and me it helps keep some of the dirt off the back of the car is about all we would notice. There is no down force here on this one.
As for most other factory spoilers they do not work much or at all on most street cars at the legal speeds and only some become functional as speed increases.
Today cars like the Ferrari 458 and even the C7 Corvette have extensive air management over and under them today that can help in down force.
In the Fiero the most functional thing you can do for the street is put a chin spoiler on the nose of a coupe or a vented hood. The Standard nose will generate lift as it is not a good aero design what so ever. A vented hood will help keep the nose more stable at 80 MPH plus.
But even the duck spoiler on the back of a stock Fiero would see limited results as it creates more drag and really adds little down force for the speed a stock Fiero can reach.
The funny thing is some of the best drag and aero improvements are just small things. Just the sharp edges on the rear bumper of the Volt add a noticeable amount of range to the electric mode.
Street cars are not race cars so much of what happens on the track just does not translate to the street.
In the real world, its not much more than a decoration. While I grant (due to some test results) it does improve some numbers a bit. None of those are enough to make any kind of difference to anyone. ie/ is it really a big deal to get + .4 of a mile in gas mileage ? If its a daily winter driver, it does give you something to tie a ski rope to.
Or a projectile to high my neighbor as mine almost did lol
Wax your car really well and take it for a drive in the rain. Notice the rain drops pretty much stay motionless on the spoiler? It does jack monkey squat.
Wax your car really well and take it for a drive in the rain. Notice the rain drops pretty much stay motionless on the spoiler? It does jack monkey squat.
GM should hire you to solve all their aerodynamics needs. Your overwhelming superior knowledge of fluid weights and viscosities is vastly greater than all the wind tunnel testing they pay for.
GM should hire you to solve all their aerodynamics needs. Your overwhelming superior knowledge of fluid weights and viscosities is vastly greater than all the wind tunnel testing they pay for.
Its just common sense, you should try it sometime.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Its just common sense, you should try it sometime.
Just because ignorance is common, doesn't make it sensible.
You're making an assumption, and not building a set of data to determine any scientific fact from. What you think you see is not necessarily what is true.
First of all, any water that manges to bead up on a freshly waxed spoiler is not going to rest on the spoiler of a moving car, simply due to the basic laws of motion described by Newton, even if there were not aerofoil interaction to have air push it away.
Secondly, the design of the spoiler is to control air on the rear of the vehicle, not on top of the spoiler.
Just because you glanced in the rear view and saw some water on the spoiler, then did so again a few seconds later, does not mean you are seeing the same water that was there before; especially when driving in the rain. Go take a Fiero that's warmed up to running temp into a wind tunnel, and watch the flow of colored smoke above, under, and around the car. You'll see it doesn't do nothing.
Just because ignorance is common, doesn't make it sensible.
You're making an assumption, and not building a set of data to determine any scientific fact from. What you think you see is not necessarily what is true.
First of all, any water that manges to bead up on a freshly waxed spoiler is not going to rest on the spoiler of a moving car, simply due to the basic laws of motion described by Newton, even if there were not aerofoil interaction to have air push it away.
Secondly, the design of the spoiler is to control air on the rear of the vehicle, not on top of the spoiler.
Just because you glanced in the rear view and saw some water on the spoiler, then did so again a few seconds later, does not mean you are seeing the same water that was there before; especially when driving in the rain. Go take a Fiero that's warmed up to running temp into a wind tunnel, and watch the flow of colored smoke above, under, and around the car. You'll see it doesn't do nothing.
LMAO! I'll tell you what, when you can discuss this without being insulting, try again. Maybe you will learn something, maybe you wont. I can tell you your abrasive behavior does not encourage any sort of intelligent conversation.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: LMAO! I'll tell you what, when you can discuss this without being insulting, try again. Maybe you will learn something, maybe you wont. I can tell you your abrasive behavior does not encourage any sort of intelligent conversation.
LOL. Stating that you are making an assumption, and explaining directly, why it is an assumption and you don't have all the data, is abrasive?
Maybe you should find the engineers who were working in the wind tunnel where the Fiero was tested, and tell them how something added to the car which creates a measurable decrease in CD, does "jack monkey squat," because your spoiler stayed wet while driving in the rain.
Sorry, but that is not common sense. It is ignorance. If you think calling it as it is, is somehow a personal insult to your person, then that's your own problem. Those engineers would call your assertion as a result of your limited observation, a statement of ignorance as well.
Calling it ignorance is not an insult. Everyone on the planet is ignorant of something. If you think otherwise, well, you're ignorant.
LOL. Stating that you are making an assumption, and explaining directly, why it is an assumption and you don't have all the data, is abrasive?
Maybe you should find the engineers who were working in the wind tunnel where the Fiero was tested, and tell them how something added to the car which creates a measurable decrease in CD, does "jack monkey squat," because your spoiler stayed wet while driving in the rain.
Sorry, but that is not common sense. It is ignorance. If you think calling it as it is, is somehow a personal insult to your person, then that's your own problem. Those engineers would call your assertion as a result of your limited observation, a statement of ignorance as well.
Calling it ignorance is not an insult. Everyone on the planet is ignorant of something. If you think otherwise, well, you're ignorant.
I don't need the engineers at Pontiac to tell me what my eyes can see. I mean c'mon, Pontiac NEVER slapped on scoops, wings, ground effects or other bits that had no significant value outside of eye candy. If you know how a spoiler works, you'd know that the picnic table GM nailed to the decklid is too low and too far forward to provide any real benefit. Its eye candy and nothing more. However, if you are fond of them I have several setting in my shed I will sell you.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I don't need the engineers at Pontiac to tell me what my eyes can see. I mean c'mon, Pontiac NEVER slapped on scoops, wings, ground effects or other bits that had no significant value outside of eye candy. If you know how a spoiler works, you'd know that the picnic table GM nailed to the decklid is too low and too far forward to provide any real benefit. Its eye candy and nothing more. However, if you are fond of them I have several setting in my shed I will sell you.
If you'd use those eyes to read the OP then you'd see that the question was about the notchback, where "too far forward" is not true. Also, you only think it's too low and too far forward, because you think it looks that way. I'm sorry, but your eyes are not valid scientific instruments for measuring airflow. The scientific data that is available clearly shows a reduction in CD from the addition of a spoiler. Your eyes are lying to you.
Stop expecting the spoiler to provide any huge change in air flow, drag, or down force. The factory spoiler doesn't do that. It does however also not do nothing. It provides a very small change in air flow, and a very small reduction in drag. It's not enough to provide a huge gain in fuel economy, but it does help.
I do agree the factory spoiler doesn't look so great on a fastback, and a lip spoiler looks a whole lot better, and might even provide the same aerodynamic change from no spoiler that the factory spoiler does (it would need to be properly measured though).
The OP wasn't asking if others personally think they are ugly, and it should be removed, or whether some people think it doesn't do anything. The OP asked if it does anything at all, and to list pros and cons.
Pros: Slight reduction in CD == slight increase in MPG Cons: Weighs a few pounds
Those are really the only factual and accurate statements that can be made. Any preference on aesthetics of the spoiler or similar are purely personal opinions.
Lets see some quantifiable data. As I said, the spoiler really does nothing outside of providing eye candy. You can agree or disagree as to whether or not my very simple observation of rain drops on the spoiler indicate the lack of airflow. You could opine as to what was it you claimed? Oh yeah, it "enhances fuel economy and vehicle stability". You should note the claimed reduction in cd was due to the combination of the extension of the B pillars and rear spoiler. As to the extent of how much each change affected the overall cd, I'm betting it was primarily the B pillars.
So I will say it again, the rear spoiler does jack monkey squat. There is NOTHING to be gained as it relates to vehicle stability, economy etc with the addition of the factory spoiler.
I will go one step further and say its better to rip the spoiler off and benefit from the minor weight reduction. A street car will benefit more from weight reduction in far more ways than an insignificant change in cd.
I think all of you guys are wrong! when I had the wing installed on my car it gained over 100 hp on the dyno or was that due to the chrome . its just a matter of taste and To each their own
Lets see some quantifiable data. As I said, the spoiler really does nothing outside of providing eye candy. You can agree or disagree as to whether or not my very simple observation of rain drops on the spoiler indicate the lack of airflow. You could opine as to what was it you claimed? Oh yeah, it "enhances fuel economy and vehicle stability". You should note the claimed reduction in cd was due to the combination of the extension of the B pillars and rear spoiler. As to the extent of how much each change affected the overall cd, I'm betting it was primarily the B pillars.
So I will say it again, the rear spoiler does jack monkey squat. There is NOTHING to be gained as it relates to vehicle stability, economy etc with the addition of the factory spoiler.
I will go one step further and say its better to rip the spoiler off and benefit from the minor weight reduction. A street car will benefit more from weight reduction in far more ways than an insignificant change in cd.
Thank you for the different approach btw.
The notchback did not get "extended B pillars" nor are fastbacks the only Fieros that ever had spoilers. Actually read the thread if you want quantifiable evidence. It's been presented multiple times:
As you can see, very small reduction in CD can make some quite important benefits to the fuel economy of the vehicle. The "stability" I mentioned, is perhaps a little confusing. I wasn't talking about down force, but the spoiler does help stabilize some air flow at the rear of the vehicle, which reduces the CD, which in turn does help stabilize the vehicle a tiny bit. None of this is going to make any noticeable difference in stop and go city traffic, no, but it does help at speeds in excess of 45 MPH (aka highway speeds).
The weight loss from the spoiler only is going to make no difference at all. What does it weigh? 5lbs? One's body weight can fluctuate that much throughout the day. You'll get that 0.01 CD back, and your car won't accelerate any faster.
