I think they look good. I'm sure the brushed effect is easier to see in person. Did you wrap them yourself? I've been considering trying my hand at vinyl wrapping.
Ehhh... ... personally I'm on the barbed wire side of the fence. I feel body color or black works best with mirrors. Or at the very least maybe a faux carbon fiber wrap.
I like no mirrors and using cameras myself. You can buy some really small (less than 1 inch square) and hide them in a small fairing where the mirror was. Ive done some of those setups on Lambos for customers.
I'm not really feeling it. I don't normally life to post negative comments, but you asked. I prefer mirrors to be body colored. Anything else looks less factory and aftermarket.
I like no mirrors and using cameras myself. You can buy some really small (less than 1 inch square) and hide them in a small fairing where the mirror was. Ive done some of those setups on Lambos for customers.
There are at least a half dozen reasons why I think this is a bad idea and pretty sure it's not legal, (driver's side anyway).
Suffice to say that a flat piece of glass has more resolution than any video screen yet devised, (including 4K).
My motorhome has video cameras...only way you can see behind you. Real details arent necessary...you only need to see a vehicle is there. Mine even has lines to mark the sides and distance behind you in feet and its clear enough to see what make of car or how many people are in it Even lower resolutions arent a big deal at nite...the headlites are easy enough to see in the monitor no matter how dark it is. The Lambos I did worked fine and never had any complaint from the owners. I dont know that any law says you have to specificly have a glass mirror on the outside. Even if it got to court, I think any ticket you got by having cameras instead would be thrown out. You only have to have them to know if a vehicle is behind or beside you, not if you can read their licence plate in it. Some cars and trucks even have the rear view monitor inside the glass rear view mirror on the windshield (maybe 1 1/2" square).
What glass outside mirror is flat ? All Ive seen are convex mirrors, and they are impossible to relate distances to. They even have a warning right on the glass that image is distorted and not able judge distance.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-23-2014).]
I love brushed metal if it is uniform. Swirl marks are going to kill the look. I worked with brushed stainless for years and getting the grain correct is hard on a flat piece but with multiple angles it would be hard to keep the flow but if you pull it off I think it would look better than black or body color. Had good luck with this link putting a grain in some out of the way parts that you cant get close to but for the mirrors it would probably not work as good. Flapper wheels would also work but they cost more and in my experience the smaller diameter wheels are harder to keep straight.
I like the deeper brushed look, for fine grain you can Scotchbright wheels, thicker the better as thin wheels will flex. Have some old mirrors and some pads, perhaps I will try my hand on a couple and see how they look. Thanks for posting.
I love brushed metal if it is uniform. Swirl marks are going to kill the look. I worked with brushed stainless for years and getting the grain correct is hard on a flat piece but with multiple angles it would be hard to keep the flow but if you pull it off I think it would look better than black or body color.
My mirrors are wrapped in vinyl and are body color underneath. The vinyl has the structure of brushed metal, too.
What glass outside mirror is flat ? All Ive seen are convex mirrors, and they are impossible to relate distances to. They even have a warning right on the glass that image is distorted and not able judge distance.
Driver's side outside mirror is flat...all of them are that way. Except in Jurrasic Park the movie, (where they did it for comedic effect) you will never see that warning on a dirver's side mirror. And when I'm about to merge left I want a high resolution 3D image in glass, not some fuzzy 2D video screen.
Mirror laws vary by state so I'll show you the Ohio law. I suppose your Lambo owners can pay the ticket, but you should at least be aware you are breaking the law. And I'm certain your motorhome has an outside mirror on the driver's side.
quote
4513.23 Rear view mirror.
(A) Every motor vehicle, motorcycle, and trackless trolley shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the operator a view of the highway to the rear of such vehicle, motorcycle, or trackless trolley. Operators of vehicles, motorcycles, streetcars, and trackless trolleys shall have a clear and unobstructed view to the front and to both sides of their vehicles, motorcycles, streetcars, or trackless trolleys and shall have a clear view to the rear of their vehicles, motorcycles, streetcars, or trackless trolleys by mirror.
(B) Whoever violates this section shall be punished as provided in section 4513.99 of the Revised Code.
Effective Date: 01-01-2004
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-25-2014).]
Wow, never heard about that before! New technology? Do you have to wear goggles?
No just two eyes. Walk into your bathroom and look in the mirror, the image is in 3D. Reversed, but it is a 3 dimensional image. When you look in your rear view mirror the image is a reversed but 3D image, you can not only judge distance accurately but as you shift your head from side to side the image changes as your perspective changes. A video screen can't do either of these things.
The mirror is a two-dimensional object but the image seen in the mirror is a three-dimensional image. We perceive 3D image because we have two eyes, each of this sees a slightly different image. The image appears just as real and three dimensional as any in the real world. Amazing that a casual search on the web and on Physics forums and people don't understand this. But home designers have known this for centuries. A full length wall to wall mirror will make a room appear twice as big. Next time you are at the gym and the have one of those workout rooms in which the entire wall is a mirror note that the image in the mirror looks just as real and 3 dimensional as the real world.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-25-2014).]
I didnt realize till I looked that drivers side is flat. I stand corrected there. The disadvantage of that is you dont get a wide angle view of the drivers side. Both of my Corvettes and Mercedes SLs had convex drivers mirrors...but I remembered I added them from aftermarket sources. While the Ohio law you quoted does say 'mirrors', it also says ' provide a clear view', which dont mean necessarily a mirror. I still say you could argue that in court. My motorhome (as most) has absolutely NO rear view at all unless theyre 100 yards or more behind me. The camera view is clear enough to park between lines and stop within inches of where I want. I dont have to be able to read their licence plate or see their face. All you need to see is a vehicle where your looking. Even the worse camera will show you a clear enough view of an 18' vehicle beside you so you know its there. At nite all you need to see is a headlite. Id like to see a cop try and give me a ticket for backing up using my camera sometime. Side mirrors are for seeing beside you, inside mirror is for seeing behind. The Lambos I did had an inside mirror...my motohome has none from the factory because all it would show is the face of the fridge. Some motorhomes do not have outside mirrors at all because they have side view cameras. So I guess those factory motorhomes are all illegal ???
That may be true, but Video screens have legally substituted rear view mirrors in Motor Homes, Big Rigs, Box Trucks ect.
I am not sure inside rear view mirrors (type attached to the glass in most cars) is required. Side mirrors seem to be required, at least on the driver's side.
Outside view has been required on both sides for years. I dont recall when that specificly started, but in the late 60s/early 70s, passenger side mirrors were always options. My Superbee only had a drivers side. They apparently felt looking over your shoulder to the right was OK and not good for the left side. I still look over my shoulder and seldom use the right mirror except to back out of the garage. I cant quote anything, but pretty sure you also have to have a rear view (inside). Side mirrors are supposed to be adjusted to look off your quarter panels into adjoining lanes...not to see behind you. Way too many people adjust them to look at the side of their car, not beside them...and they end up changing lanes and running into people they dont see. The Lambos I did cameras on had a view from the side of the car to almost straight alongside you, much wider than any mirror. My rear camera on my motorhome lets me see almost straight out both sides too (almost 180*). I have to be carefull because if I leave it on, I almost forget to look out the side mirrors when I change lanes because the camera loses them when they get alongside.
The mirror is actually quite amazing for being just a simple flat piece of glass...
But like I said mirror laws vary by state so I can't make a blanket statement that applies to everyone, but in general a side mirror will outperform any camera screen combination yet devised. For RVs, yes a rear camera is better than no view at all. But every RV I have ever seen has huge side mirrors. Maybe there are some million dollar rigs with side cameras and no mirrors, but I have never seen one like that and it would be illegal in Texas, where at least one mirror has to be present.
Interestingly the Texas law does have a loophole that if you have an inside mirror you don't need side mirrors so you could do the side cameras legally but as I stated earlier I would not want that until they have goggle-less 8K three dimensional screens.
I like my cameras better than any mirror, so I guess its your choice. I dont need to be able to read a magazine cover or see stone chips in it. I only have to see a 18' vehicle. In the Lambos, I put both monitors together under the rear view mirror inside. You didnt have to move your head to see all 3 areas...I call that safer. If you look at your right mirror, you could get hit on the left side because you dont see it coming. One of the owners lives in Cinncy, where they have mandatory Highway Patrol annual inspections. Hes obviously passed it at least 10 times.
JScott, can a mirror see in the dark. An infared camera can.
As far as Tesla, the govenment seems hell bent on trying to kill it. They currently have a fight going on in Ohio trying to limit how many dealers they can have. Isnt that breaking a federal law on restricting trade ? Who has a right to say how many dealers you can have if you want them. GM has 50 dealers just in the columbus area. Tesla is limited to 3 in all of Ohio according to the news.
Since this has taken OP thread way off topic, this is the last one from me. Ill keep installing them on peoples cars who want them until someone in court tells me not to. They all want them because they cant use the mirrors the factory installs. Backing a Lambo or similar car using only mirrors is asking for an accident. I have a dealer friend who wrecked the whole side of his Escalade 3 times using mirrors to back into his garage. Since I added cameras, he hasnt hit it once and folds the standard powered mirrors in before he gets to the garage. Ill even go farther and volunteer to pay any fines they get with them if they want me to. It will just give me a reason to get it to court.
I just took these pics. Sorry, your blind if you think cameras are worse than mirrors.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-27-2014).]
Yeah... right.... the government. Did you read the article you posted? It is the auto dealer's association that is fighting Tesla. Remember, these dealers are the ones who donate money to candidates.... they have some power over the state laws. So, it isn't the government... is just business as usual. The customer suffers as the competition prohibits free market.
Anyway.... cameras are not replacement for mirrors, based on current law and that was the point of my link. Frankly, all it takes is for a little snow/ice to form on the camera.... and you lost your view. I have a backup camera on my one vehicle.. it is pretty useless in winter (snow/ice type of winter) as it is iced over most of time. I guess you could have heated camera housings, etc, but that is what needs hashed out by the auto manufacturers and the law. (unless they make little ice scrappers for cameras)
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
As far as Tesla, the govenment seems hell bent on trying to kill it. They currently have a fight going on in Ohio trying to limit how many dealers they can have. Isnt that breaking a federal law on restricting trade ? Who has a right to say how many dealers you can have if you want them. GM has 50 dealers just in the columbus area. Tesla is limited to 3 in all of Ohio according to the news.
I'm not really feeling it. I don't normally life to post negative comments, but you asked. I prefer mirrors to be body colored. Anything else looks less factory and aftermarket.
This. But if you like it then that's what matters.
[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 03-27-2014).]
If YOU read the article, it has to be approved by both houses of Ohio Congress...government. It was only brought up by the dealers assn. Ohio isnt the only place fighting with Tesla...I think their still fighting in the Carolinas too, and other things I dont remember details on.
My cameras are aimed downward, ones I install are in tube fairings outside, or on the inside looking out. They never ice over unless you spray water on them directly from the back. Ive never had mine ice up or soak down with water, or be unusable unless I put tape over the lens. You never seen an iced over outside mirror? People dont even clean the ice and snow off their windows. Tell me how my cam shots above are any different than your mirrors. Use your dumb ass mirrors and Ill use my cameras...thank you. I cant help it if your too dumb to figure out where to put your camera so it dont get sprayed with water and covered with ice. Ill bet you have one of those you just stuck on your licence plate screws. Either that or buy a camera that costs more than your $25 one that doesnt have any seals in it. If you cant do that and have such a weather problem with them, mount it on the inside A pillars (for side view) or at the top or bottom of the back window (rear view)...and you shouldnt have any rain, snow or ice problems unless your car dont have any windows.
Give it a rest dude....the State Highway Patrol approved them on my job...case closed.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-27-2014).]
Got my second mirror back from the company today. What an Odyssey! Reminded me that I live in Miami, northern tip of South America.
After making up excuses and lying to me for almost three weeks I went to their workshop today to retrieve the mirror - and they had covered it in light brushed aluminum wrap! Now I had two differently wrapped mirrors! When I complained, they got nasty...
The lighter color looked TERRIBLE and I tore it off right away, taking some paint with it. Now I have to recondition both of my mirrors tomorrow before going to Daytona on Saturday.
Sometimes I really, really hate the Miami "lifestyle" (and way of doing business)!!!
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 03-27-2014).]
I know what you mean...I hate having to deal with any kind of shop for any reason. Everyone seems to be able to screw up anything no matter how easy it is. Since your tight on time now, just sand and paint them both and figure out what to do later. Good luck.
Wrong, again... But keep telling us it is the "evil government". You want to blame the government for everything. You ignore lobbyist and corruption. Where do you think law makers get their input from? ... hint.... nah... let me just tell you....the Dealers Association. Which is who Tesla is fighting against... which is stated in the article.
Maybe you need to drive in real winter weather, where -10F is the high and ice spray forms everywhere. I know you think you know what I have, but again, you are wrong as I have a FACTORY INSTALLED backup camera. Oh, when when water does get on the lens,which will happen to any lens exposed to the elements, even those pointed downwards (although I am not sure how pointing a camera at the ground would work on a low vehicle like the Fiero), you lose a large portion of the view. Current OEM solutions are not ready as full mirror replacements, yet. As for people cleaning off their mirrors. Yes, they do, or they have heated mirrors.
Install what you want, I really could care less, but the law is the law and currently cameras can not replace side mirrors. That is fact and that is the point of all of this. It isn't the evil government, like you think. Law makers don't care about what you have on your car, they only care who gives to their campaign and the until Tesla (and other manufacturers) start playing the political game, the law won't change. Currently the Dealers Association doesn't want Tesla in Ohio (and other states), so they will fight everything about the car because they don't want the competition... plain and simple for those who don't wear tin-foil hats.
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
If YOU read the article, it has to be approved by both houses of Ohio Congress...government. It was only brought up by the dealers assn. Ohio isnt the only place fighting with Tesla...I think their still fighting in the Carolinas too, and other things I dont remember details on.
My cameras are aimed downward, ones I install are in tube fairings outside, or on the inside looking out. They never ice over unless you spray water on them directly from the back. Ive never had mine ice up or soak down with water, or be unusable unless I put tape over the lens. You never seen an iced over outside mirror? People dont even clean the ice and snow off their windows. Tell me how my cam shots above are any different than your mirrors. Use your dumb ass mirrors and Ill use my cameras...thank you. I cant help it if your too dumb to figure out where to put your camera so it dont get sprayed with water and covered with ice. Ill bet you have one of those you just stuck on your licence plate screws. Either that or buy a camera that costs more than your $25 one that doesnt have any seals in it. If you cant do that and have such a weather problem with them, mount it on the inside A pillars (for side view) or at the top or bottom of the back window (rear view)...and you shouldnt have any rain, snow or ice problems unless your car dont have any windows.
Give it a rest dude....the State Highway Patrol approved them on my job...case closed.
edit to fix typo
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 03-28-2014).]
Wrong, again... But keep telling us it is the "evil government". You want to blame the government for everything. You ignore lobbyist and corruption. Where do you think law makers get their input from? ... hint.... nah... let me just tell you....the Dealers Association. Which is who Tesla is fighting against... which is stated in the article.
Maybe you need to drive in real winter weather, where -10F is the high and ice spray forms everywhere. I know you think you know what I have, but again, you are wrong as I have a FACTORY INSTALLED backup camera. Oh, when when water does get on the lens,which will happen to any lens exposed to the elements, even those pointed downwards (although I am not sure how pointing a camera at the ground would work on a low vehicle like the Fiero), you lose a large portion of the view. Current OEM solutions are not ready as full mirror replacements, yet. As for people cleaning off their mirrors. Yes, they do, or they have heated mirrors.
Install what you want, I really could care less, but the law is the law and currently cameras can not replace side mirrors. That is fact and that is the point of all of this. It isn't the evil government, like you think. Law makers don't care about what you have on your car, they only care who gives to their campaign and the until Tesla (and other manufacturers) start playing the political game, the law won't change. Currently the Dealers Association doesn't want Tesla in Ohio (and other states), so they will fight everything about the car because they don't want the competition... plain and simple for those who don't wear tin-foal hats.
I totally agree with you.
Tesla does not have dealerships, the company sells directly to the public. New Jersey and other states are trying to stop that because of the powerful dealership lobby.
But with regards to mirrors there are valid scientific reasons why cameras are not ready for prime time. The fact that "cameras only" systems are illegal is just the icing. Concept vehicle have been showing them for decades and yes they look cool. But until a camera is better than a mirror you will not see camera only systems, these high end RVs notwithstanding.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-28-2014).]
If you have weather problems, put the camera inside. Ive mounted them on both ends of a dash for a guy who didnt want anything on the outside of a full custom job. You could see everything you can see on a door mounted outside mirror.
It didnt get hardly over 15* for 2 months here. We had record breaking snowfall. That pretty winter to me.
I see you didnt have any comment on the photos that clearly show the cameras work fine. I guess you cant argue with a fact.
Sure all kinds of special interests groups influence government.....BUT ONLY the government makes the law. In this case, the Ohio Auto Dealers cant do anything about anything on their own except whine. Its the libs like you that let the government get away with whatever they want. You put the friggin communist bastard in the white house.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-28-2014).]
No they don't... every one of those stores are owned by Tesla. Dealerships are independently owned. There's the difference. It's as if you went to the Auto show and the GM representative was able to sell you a car on the spot, which they cannot. Funny that you can buy boats at the boat show and RVs at the RV show, even RVs with mirrors. Don't believe me here's the NY Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2014...g-at-tesla.html?_r=0
And I never said cameras IN ADDITION to mirrors is a bad thing, obviously it's better. The Government that you seem to hate will probably mandate rear camera systems at some point. But in my humble opinion no camera only system is as good as a mirror only system. And camera only systems are illegal in the US of A. That much is a fact.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-28-2014).]
Theres where we have another difference of opinion. If you have a showroom and you sell cars, your a dealership to me. Doesnt matter if your a private owner or the manufacturer. If I built a bunch of kitcars here to resell them, Im a dealership as I see it, and also the manufacturer. If I rented another showroom in another city to sell the same cars, thats also a dealership even if I pay someone else to sell them there.
" Currently the Dealers Association doesn't want Tesla in Ohio (and other states), so they will fight everything about the car because they don't want the competition... plain and simple for those who don't wear tin-foil hats."
I completely agree. But the assn cant do anything except work thru the government, so its on them. They can ignore the assn if they wanted. The big problem with the government is they want their claws into everything they can....and they take money given to them from everywhere they can. AND, they usually screw it up. They even had a monopoly with the post office and they managed to foul it up. How do you run a 'company' out of business when its the only one there is?
My camera view I posted is on my camera about 4' up the back and angled down at about 45*. I can clearly see a few hundred feet behind me as well as right behind my bumper. It shows a much larger area than any of my mirrors show. I can even see leaves and rocks on the pavement. Apparently the factory cameras are not too well thought out. If they can make heated mirrors, why not heated cameras? Why not mount them inside like a third brake light ? Out of the last dozen cars ive had, none have heated mirrors. I think one of my Corvettes from back around 12 years ago had them. I can only say anything about my own, the ones Ive installed for others I dont know...prob pretty likely they dont drive them in winter.
I see you didnt have any comment on the photos that clearly show the cameras work fine. I guess you cant argue with a fact.
Those pictures were not posted when I commented, if you were directing your comment to me.
That setup may even be illegal in your state. Here in MI, it is not permitted:
Law: A person shall not operate a motor vehicle that is to be used upon the highways with a television or other similar electronic device that displays a video image that can be viewed by the operator while the motor vehicle is in motion. Statute: MCLS § 257.708b (2008) Penalties: A civil infraction.
I have used video cameras and when you point them towards the sun, or have liquid, or other items on the lens, your image is not clear. And with a camera, you can not just move your head to change the angle/glare. But as I said, do what you want but you ignore a lot shortcomings of of current camera technology and the fact that it is illegal.
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Did you read the article you posted? It is the auto dealer's association that is fighting Tesla. Remember, these dealers are the ones who donate money to candidates.... they have some power over the state laws. So, it isn't the government... is just business as usual. The customer suffers as the competition prohibits free market.
