Not a problem and no harm no foul. I thought I would just generate some talk about these Trans Ams. I did contacte the Trans Am Depot and they are making some lovely machines. If you want one expect the better portion of $85k-$90k complete with T-Tops. A little sticker shock, yes, but the Hurst TA with T-Tops....yummy!
Not a problem and no harm no foul. I thought I would just generate some talk about these Trans Ams. I did contacte the Trans Am Depot and they are making some lovely machines. If you want one expect the better portion of $85k-$90k complete with T-Tops. A little sticker shock, yes, but the Hurst TA with T-Tops....yummy!
I'd probably just wait and order the 2015 Z06 when they announce pricing for it, at that point. So far it's only been said "less than $100K." So you can get a Camaro with some style treatment, or a proper supercar. And the Z06 will have a stiff enough frame that it'll also include the removable top.
As I was typing it out I had thought about changing my wording but I didn't want to take the time and I assumed you were smart enough to catch the drift of what I was getting at. Sorry if I over estimated you.
You keep trying to insult me to make yourself feel smart. You know what you said and you know you were wrong.
An intelligent person would say, "Yes, I worded that poorly. What I meant was pipes on opposite sides of the car." or words to that effect. The uneducated attack anyone who notices their error in an attempt to deflect attention. They just didn't understand what you REALLY meant. We have a president that does that constantly. Nobody buys his BS, and nobody's buying yours either.
Not a problem and no harm no foul. I thought I would just generate some talk about these Trans Ams. I did contacte the Trans Am Depot and they are making some lovely machines. If you want one expect the better portion of $85k-$90k complete with T-Tops. A little sticker shock, yes, but the Hurst TA with T-Tops....yummy!
Tons of cars I like that I cant afford or wouldnt be wise to get, but I still like 'em
Me too! I still think if I could buy any classic muscle car it would most likely be the Daytona or Superbird. I love that llloooooonnng sleek look for some reason. plus, you don't see 1000 of them at every cruise in.
Me too! I still think if I could buy any classic muscle car it would most likely be the Daytona or Superbird. I love that llloooooonnng sleek look for some reason. plus, you don't see 1000 of them at every cruise in.
Thats another one, either you could make from a Charger or Roadrunner but Mopars arent cheap
Not a problem and no harm no foul. I thought I would just generate some talk about these Trans Ams. I did contacte the Trans Am Depot and they are making some lovely machines. If you want one expect the better portion of $85k-$90k complete with T-Tops. A little sticker shock, yes, but the Hurst TA with T-Tops....yummy!
Thanks!
The price is the worst part as you can buy an older TA well optioned with a real Pontiac engine that will only increase in value while these will do like most new cars do and depreciate.
I have the same dilemma with the new C7 Corvette as I love the car but for the same price I could get a pristine 59 and it will only increase in value,
You keep trying to insult me to make yourself feel smart. You know what you said and you know you were wrong.
An intelligent person would say, "Yes, I worded that poorly. What I meant was pipes on opposite sides of the car." or words to that effect. The uneducated attack anyone who notices their error in an attempt to deflect attention. They just didn't understand what you REALLY meant. We have a president that does that constantly. Nobody buys his BS, and nobody's buying yours either.
You blew it. Own it and move on.
Well we agree on one thing our feelings on the POTUS.
I have no issue saying I made a mistake and pretty much admitted that when I started I had second thoughts of rewording it in my post but I was short on time and I did not think you would be so anal on having to make a simple point that I had agreed on. That is not an insult just an observation.
The real trouble with the GTO was Bob wanted a new RWD performance car and wanted it now. The problem was Pontiac did not have many options and had no money to pull it off.
The reason the first year GTO did not have hood scoops and duel exhaust was because they did not have the money to do it in 04. This came from Fred Simmons at Pontiac directly to me.
The reason it had the older Holden styling is they could not afford to change much of the car. The whole thing was done on the cheap with money beg, borrowed and stolen from other programs. Marketing was an issue because there was none. No money for that either.
There was hope for a GTO on the Camaro platform later but it never came as the end of Pontiac was already known internally.
I know that Lutz wanted the Monaro for Pontiac, but I always thought it would have been more "viable" (?), badged as a Chevelle. Most people I know already equate Holden to Chevy. All of the early (negative) reviews said that the GTO looked like a big Cavalier. - i.e. It looked like a Chevy. Hell... Run with it!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-17-2014).]
Originally posted by Raydar: I know that Lutz wanted the Monaro for Pontiac, but I always thought it would have been more "viable" (?), badged as a Chevelle. Most people I know already equate Holden to Chevy. All of the early (negative) reviews said that the GTO looked like a big Cavalier. - i.e. It looked like a Chevy. Hell... Run with it!
So it's the new A-body. Fitting, since the Chevelle and GTO shared that platform originally.
All of the early (negative) reviews said that the GTO looked like a big Cavalier. - i.e. It looked like a Chevy. Hell... Run with it!
And a '66 GTO looked like a small Grand Prix.
Most of the negative reviews I read seemed to be colored by wanting a retro-GTO and remembering the GTO thinking it was a one of a kind style that no other car shared.
Those mid-60s Pontiacs are my all-time favorite cars, but I'm biased because that's what my folks were buying back then. But that's why I objected to the look of the modern GTO. It didn't look Pontiacky at all, it looked like just another 2-door econo-box.
My brother owned one for a couple of weeks and let me drive it. Holy cow, that car was a brute. I got it up to 115 mph and it wasn't even breathing hard. Too bad it didn't LOOK like a GTO, too.
I know that Lutz wanted the Monaro for Pontiac, but I always thought it would have been more "viable" (?), badged as a Chevelle. Most people I know already equate Holden to Chevy. All of the early (negative) reviews said that the GTO looked like a big Cavalier. - i.e. It looked like a Chevy. Hell... Run with it!
Well here is the deal. You have to look at the big picture to really understand the what and why.
Lutz arrives at GM and is put in charge of product.
Problem #1 Pontiac is the performance division but it was void of RWD and really any real performance other than the Supercharged FWD cars. This was seen as a major problem since Pontiac had already lost the Firebird and no replacement was even considered.
Pontiac also was dying fast and it was in need of product now not 5-8 year later. Chevy was looking to do a Camaro again but Pontiac could not wait. The idea was to take the Monaro and convert it to LHD and change the bumpers and fuel system to make it legal for the US market. This was done for pennies on the dollar as GM really had no budget set to do this till Lutz forced it through.
Finally this was only seen as a car for a limited time as they had hoped to put the new GTO on the Zeta as their version of a Camaro. The Idea was to so a little larger car that was a performance car but much more different than the Camaro. They would have shared the platform but they would have been much different than the Firebird and Camaro.
Chevy will not get a Chevelle as long as there is a Camaro as the market is just too tight to do two coupes like this in one brand. Now I do expect a Alpha Coupe at Buick at some point. It will share much with the Camaro under the skin but it will offer things you will not get in a Camaro and it will be a little more up scales. I also expect AWD as an option. This may be a new Regal or could just be called GNX or something of that kind. Just do not expect it to be all black and just for straight lines runs. It will be more Euro flavored and shared with Opel.
The Monaro just used Chevy styling cues as they have in the past. While they never really copies Chevy they have built cars over the years that at times carried a take of the Chevy styling. Lutz would have changed the Sheet Metal if he had the time and money but he had little of one and none of the other.
Chevy would have never agreed to take the car and call it a Chevelle either as the folks there were already working with Lutz to bring back the Camaro. They would only be able to have one RWD coupe and you already know what one they wanted.
In todays market you just can't have it all anymore. The cost are too high and too often the returns are too low.
Now if Lutz had been here 5 years before the death of the F body we would have seen a much different GTO.
Note there are drawings out there of the GTO Lutz had intended. It was a much more squared off car and had a raked roof. I think it would have complemented the Camaro line and not competed with it like the Firebird did. That was their intentions but we will never know.
The challenge of the new GTO that never was would have been to come up with a model that would make everyone happy. Chevy got lucky on the Camaro as this was a difficult car to do. They wanted enough retro to make the traditional people happy but they did not want to go so retro that they would be put into a box where moving forward later would be difficult. Retro only last so long and then it becomes a problem when you want to advance styling or grow the segment to non traditional buyers.
The Corvette faces this too. Note that generally most good new designs had a 50% 50% hate take at first and then 6-8 months later it is a 80% love and 20% hate. Take the loss of the pop up head lights on the Corvette. That was a big controversy at first and today little is said about it anymore. The C7 it was the tail lights but once the track times came in most people forgot about the tail lights. We will see the same on the Z06 as many like to call it a riced up model but the performance times will blow many minds once they hit the news. Many people have no clue this car will lay waste to a ZR1 in a heart beat. They will then love it too.
But with any group there will always be a small minority that will never be happy.
One other issue with the GTO was they expected the mid west to really take to the car. Well it did ok but the West Coast was where the demand was the greatest. They had to move a lot of them around because of the messed up distribution.
Also too many dealer gouged on the prices and that did not help either.
Either way it was a hail mary and even though it was caught it was still not enough to save Pontiac just as the Solstice and G8 were too little to late.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 05-18-2014).]
Those mid-60s Pontiacs are my all-time favorite cars, but I'm biased because that's what my folks were buying back then. But that's why I objected to the look of the modern GTO. It didn't look Pontiacky at all, it looked like just another 2-door econo-box.
My brother owned one for a couple of weeks and let me drive it. Holy cow, that car was a brute. I got it up to 115 mph and it wasn't even breathing hard. Too bad it didn't LOOK like a GTO, too.
I have been lucky as I know and grew up with several major Pontiac collectors. This has given me access to drive many great cars. I have driven and raced many GTO models and have drive at least one of every year. My favorite is still the 64 GTO. I took my buddies out last year and cracking open the tri power just as you shift is a great feeling.
Our daily driver to school years ago was a 63 GP that had a Ram Air 400 installed in it. The car also had a tri power in it too. Even being the size of a large boat this thing would haul.
One we had too I wish I had back was a 428 HO 1969 GP. That car was just a great ride. It would bury the speedo at 130 and keep going. It was not a race car but it was a comfortable and fast ride.
We also had many years of Firebirds to play with and even a 62 Tempest Convertible with a slant 4. It was like a front engine Corvair since it shared some parts with the Corvair. It was odd as the engine was in front and the unibody pan was similar to the Corvair with only a small hump. It used a drive shaft that was like a larger speedo cable to a rear power glide transaxle.
Hell we even had a Jag sedan that the V12 died in and we put a 428 Pontiac in it. The car still runs great and is faster and more reliable than the old 12.
Having owned old and new Pontiac's I can really feel the heritage of the old cars and how they differed from the Chevy lines early on. The little details and extra engineering was always there in the 60's but that faded as time went on.
The real thing about the Pontiac's was the torque. That is what really set the apart as this is what throws you back in the seat.
Originally posted by Quad Raider: Those mid-60s Pontiacs are my all-time favorite cars, but I'm biased because that's what my folks were buying back then. But that's why I objected to the look of the modern GTO. It didn't look Pontiacky at all, it looked like just another 2-door econo-box.
My brother owned one for a couple of weeks and let me drive it. Holy cow, that car was a brute. I got it up to 115 mph and it wasn't even breathing hard. Too bad it didn't LOOK like a GTO, too.
Yeah, they should have put 4 doors on it and called it a Tempest instead. Some of the later 2nd gen F-bodies, and the 3rd and 4th gen versions, didn't [i}look{/i] like Camaros/Firebirds either. The "doesn't look like a Pontiac" argument is a bit trite as well, given the things Pontiac has produced in the last 30 years. Some of the body and interior differences in the new GTO could have been done much better, but the original GTO was a high performance grocery getter, and the 04-06 GTO certainly fits that bill exactly. Most people who wanted the GTO to be brought back had their expectations set way too high. The F-body had just gone out of production. The only rear wheel drive V8 car that GM was selling in the US was the Corvette. And GM was grasping at straws to save itself, the Pontiac division even more so in that respect. Everyone likes to complain about the new GTO, but at least it wasn't a Montana, Aztek, Sunfire, Sunbird, Torrent, or Grand Am. The new GTO was probably the most Pontiac of any Pontiac that has been produced in the 20 years prior to its short life.
Originally posted by dobey: The new GTO was probably the most Pontiac of any Pontiac that has been produced in the 20 years prior to its short life.
What was really sad is that the GTO/Monaro is a really great car. People who didn't get the retro-GTO they wanted were turned off by the looks and never gave the car a chance. I've said before I think what Pontiac should have done is discontinue most of the US market cars and start importing the Holden line and sell them as Pontiacs.
The G8 was fantastic, but too late to help. Imagine a lineup of a Holden 60 or G8 coupe based GTO, G8 sedan and sport wagon, plus the Ute. Maybe add the "Caprice" version of the Commodore platform as the luxury Bonneville.
All great cars that would fit with the Pontiac image, and aren't direct copies of other US GM models. GM realized how good a car they had with the G8, which is why it's now sold as a Chevy Caprice.
Originally posted by Formula88: What was really sad is that the GTO/Monaro is a really great car. People who didn't get the retro-GTO they wanted were turned off by the looks and never gave the car a chance. I've said before I think what Pontiac should have done is discontinue most of the US market cars and start importing the Holden line and sell them as Pontiacs.
Indeed. I test drove one and almost traded the Mini Cooper I had at the time for it. But more debt and lower fuel economy were not something I needed at the time. The LS2 and 6 speed was a great combination in that car.
What I need: A 7.5 Liter, 8 speed manual Sport Utility that handles like a 911 with T-Tops and vented leather seats that gets 86 mpg and 0-60 times in the 3 second range.
What I need: A 7.5 Liter, 8 speed manual Sport Utility that handles like a 911 with T-Tops and vented leather seats that gets 86 mpg and 0-60 times in the 3 second range.
What I need: A 7.5 Liter, 8 speed manual Sport Utility that handles like a 911 with T-Tops and vented leather seats that gets 86 mpg and 0-60 times in the 3 second range.
Build something that gets goood mileage and put a few turbos on it. That seems to be the way.
What was really sad is that the GTO/Monaro is a really great car. People who didn't get the retro-GTO they wanted were turned off by the looks and never gave the car a chance. I've said before I think what Pontiac should have done is discontinue most of the US market cars and start importing the Holden line and sell them as Pontiacs.
The G8 was fantastic, but too late to help. Imagine a lineup of a Holden 60 or G8 coupe based GTO, G8 sedan and sport wagon, plus the Ute. Maybe add the "Caprice" version of the Commodore platform as the luxury Bonneville.
All great cars that would fit with the Pontiac image, and aren't direct copies of other US GM models. GM realized how good a car they had with the G8, which is why it's now sold as a Chevy Caprice.
The problem there is Holden was getting wound down at the same time.
If you look at their line up most of it is Chevy bases and the plans were in place even back then to move them more in line with Chevy. There was a point they almost took the Holden name and removed it but I think the failure of Chevy in Europe saved the name. As it is now the only cars Holden the VF line is shutting down in 2017. The cars will be replaced with a Alpha bases sedan from Michigan and either the Camaro or a variation of the Camaro renames a Monaro. There has been a debate at GM on if the Camaro name would be used by Holden or not. The final out come is not really known yet.
The Ute is gone but there may be a chance for a Chevy bases SS wagon. Mark Ruess has hinted about a fun wagon and with the failure of the CTS wagon to return Chevy may be in line to get one that they could share with Holden.
The real issue with Pontiac and Holden is they would have only accounted for just over 300,000 units per year for both divisions. That is not much in todays terms anymore where Toyotas sells that many Camrys.
The truth is it is difficult to do niche divisions and models unless it is shared with someone else on a greater scale or if it cost a lot more like Cadillac.
I would look for a SS Alpha and a possible Caprice model too with a V6 the next go around. The new car will be so very refined bases on the investment by Cadillac already in the Alpha. They spent money Chevy could not have spent and then Chevy can put their money in things like the interior etc. This is why the new Impala is as good as it is because of the investment in the XTS that fixed things the platform needed.
GM is in the midst of a great global realignment right now but Holden will see mostly Chevy models and a couple Opel/Buick models added to their line up to give them more range. Also I expect Cadillac to go down under at some point too.
The Caprice already has the 3.6 V6, but in the US it's only available as a PPV, and not for sale to the general public.
Yes that could change. The only thing in the way is the Impala but the RWD Caprice could open the door for more sales as it would be made available as a PPV and the Public as it would not longer be limited or imported.
The Imported status has created sales issues with some departments. If it was made outside North America sales were limited at some departments. We had several local here that had to go to the Ford or Dodge because of these laws.
Yes that could change. The only thing in the way is the Impala but the RWD Caprice could open the door for more sales as it would be made available as a PPV and the Public as it would not longer be limited or imported.
The Imported status has created sales issues with some departments. If it was made outside North America sales were limited at some departments. We had several local here that had to go to the Ford or Dodge because of these laws.
Same here. I've seen a couple Caprices, but a lot more new Fords, for the local department.
Same here. I've seen a couple Caprices, but a lot more new Fords, for the local department.
A couple departments have gotten the rule changed to buy the Chevys but many have had to go else where as the rules are not worth the hassle. The cars are priced near each other.
Many are going to the SUV models anyways from GM and Ford. I have a Sheriff Explorer beside my house no that my neighbor drives on patrol. He loves it.
