I have spent most of my time in Fieros (almost 20 years) driving primarily 88 Formulas (with limited time in pre-88 Fieros. Since 2012, my primary Fiero is an 85 SE 2m6.
I have decided, I absolutely HATE the brakes. I suppose it is possible I have just become spoiled by modern cars ABS/EBD/TC and other electronic aides which assist in stopping and car control. However, it just seems to me that this Fiero takes a lot more ground to come to a stop than I am comfortable with these days, and that it is difficult to modulate the brakes without locking them in an emergency situation. Both way worse than the 88's I have spent years driving. (Yes, I am aware the 88 brake system is upgraded).
Are there any realistic options which would greatly improve brake feel, modulation, and stopping power without having to go all out to a big brake kit that would necessitate larger wheels (bigger than 15's, I am running GT style lace wheels on it and do not want to go bigger)? I know about the Grand Am upgrade, but does that feel/drive like a viable upgrade? Would a different master cylinder, or anything help?
Thoughts?
[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 05-30-2014).]
I did the "$100 Brake Upgrade" that can be found in The Mall. I did an evaluation of it in the thread that is linked in the first post. I recommend this upgrade.
anything is an improvement over stock unless you remove the pads If cost is an issue then the Grand Am upgrade should be your best option unless you are handy at machining and fabricating parts.
I second the "$100 Brake Upgrade" big difference. I redid the whole system on my formula and added the bigger booster as well as my friends formula without the booster upgrade. It is a night and day difference. And by whole system I mean lines, hoses, master and calipers on both cars. Well worth the money.
I second the "$100 Brake Upgrade" big difference. I redid the whole system on my formula and added the bigger booster as well as my friends formula without the booster upgrade. It is a night and day difference. And by whole system I mean lines, hoses, master and calipers on both cars. Well worth the money.
I will add my name to list... "$100 Brake Upgrade" big difference!
I think I have the LeBaron calipers and S-10 booster. The vented rotors help. I'm going to be upgrading to a big brake kit in the near future. Keep an eye in the mall for my old setup (minus the booster)
Tires, Suspension especially shock/struts, and brakes parts all affect brake performance.
I have stock 87 brakes that I restored w/ Wagner TQ pads. I have no fade problems and stop distance is good. Better that any semi-metallic pads.
"Fade" and some other problems in normal driving most always mean pads are wrong for application or calipers w/ problems. Example wrong for application: "Racing" pads often have problems in normal driving because pads never get hot enough. You need best pads design for use in normal driving which Wagner TQ and others are.
By restoring I mean just that and often not cheap. Like many, I had problems w/ rear calipers cause low pedal. Beside Wagner TQ, I use rubber hose but newer SAE j1401 type hose. Often sold as "Pro Grade" hose assembles, like Raybestos PG Plus. Preforms better OE w/o problems for SS. Other parts... 4 New rotors, New Front bearings/seals, Rebuilt rear w/ GM kit (No longer available). Parts Cost was ~$500-600 total. ~$110 just for Raybestos PG Plus hoses.
See my Cave, Brake Service If you read section in past, reread again.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I think I have the LeBaron calipers and S-10 booster. The vented rotors help. I'm going to be upgrading to a big brake kit in the near future. Keep an eye in the mall for my old setup (minus the booster)
LMK when you upgrade... my Indy needs better brakes. I'm doing Grand Am in the front, but for rear I want to go seville calipers. I assume that's what you have?
It would be nice if someone made a list of all the brake upgrade options along with vendors/ part numbers.
On my 87 GT N* I used the vented upgrade kit from TFS with upgraded master cylinder. This was an improvement, but the big improvement came with the "$100 upgrade" (bigger brake booster) in the mall. Greatly improved the pedal feel and braking. I would start there first. My car is on the heavier side of Fiero's at 3063 lbs and for normal street use it has no problems stopping now...
[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 05-31-2014).]
On my 87 GT N* I used the vented upgrade kit from TFS with upgraded master cylinder. This was an improvement, but the big improvement came with the "$100 upgrade" (bigger brake booster) in the mall. Greatly improved the pedal feel and breaking. I would start there first. My car is on the heavier side of Fiero's at 3063 lbs and for normal street use it has no problems stopping now...
This is exactly what I'm doing, but note that a turn key booster set up for Fiero is a lot more than $100.
I have spent most of my time in Fieros (almost 20 years) ...
I have decided, I absolutely HATE the brakes.
Better late than never I guess
quote
Originally posted by Fformula88:
Thoughts?
I'd recommend to do the larger booster and master cylinder described in the $100 brake upgrade thread although, as Jon posted, it will cost you more than $100 . Also use the Wagner Thermo_quiet pads - REALLY nice stuff and reasonable price. These are the easiest things to start with and you can add the upgrades later if you feel you need to. Actually, this IS what i did (and feel no need to add anything else).
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-31-2014).]
Im with you all the way. I hate all the 'aids' of new technology. EVERY accident ive had (at fault or not) was due to ABS brakes. If possible I disable them on every car I own that I can. I drove for 40 years without any ABS brakes or traction controls and NEVER hit anything. Only aid I do like is positraction. Even when I got the new Magnum, I pulled all the fuses for ABS and traction control.
How easily can you lock your brakes? Does it happen at a lower-than-expected pedal pressure?
Sounds like the booster upgrade is the consensus choice for the place to start! I will look into that, and follow it with at least a pad upgrade (maybe as a start with the hardware).
Thanks for all the good feedback!
I was never a fan of ABS, or traction control either. However, I have found that some manufacturers are a LOT better at executing those aides than others. When properly executed, I find them nice to have.
I installed the 12" rotors on my 88 and I'm happy with the feel of them. I still use the stock calipers, just the 12" vette rotors and kit from WCF. However, I am in the process of upgrading to the 13" Wilwood kit from AMS. Since part of the kit is to install a larger master, I may also install the larger booster at the same time. So, I may not be able to provide much info on the new system, since i'll end up replacing the whole thing, (not sure what one part of the system was better, because it all will change at the same time).
I have also heard good things about the $100 upgrade.
The feeling you get having to make a panic stop with ABS is just as bad as the one you get when the pedal goes all the way to the floor. You KNOW your not going to stop and just brace for the impact thats sure to come. I know how your SUPPOSED to use them too, hold them down hard and dont let up. So far thats never worked out. Its always another object that makes the stop. Your better off to keep off the brake and relax so you dont get a broken foot when you do hit.
LMK when you upgrade... my Indy needs better brakes. I'm doing Grand Am in the front, but for rear I want to go seville calipers. I assume that's what you have?
It would be nice if someone made a list of all the brake upgrade options along with vendors/ part numbers.
I think they are still stock rears and only upgraded front cal/rotors. I'll give you first dibs when they come off.
I think you all do overkill...but its your thing, your car and what you think. Personally Ive found all my Fieros OEM brakes...in proper condition....are more than adequate, even for high speed or panic stops. You want really scarey, try a 6 ton RV and someone cuts in front of you and has to slam on brakes. Ive had to slide past them on the berm. It does have anti lock too, but I havent figured out if its possible to turn them off since the brakes work off the power steering pump instead of a vacumm booster.
I did the "$100 Brake Upgrade" that can be found in The Mall. I did an evaluation of it in the thread that is linked in the first post. I recommend this upgrade.
It would be nice if you could post some links instead of sending everyone searching. I did find the "100 brake upgrade" however there is no link to an evaluation that you did in the first post than I can find.
It has been a long time ago, so a lot of this is just by memory. When working on them back in the 80s there were little options except for what you had. The rear calipers are not that bad if you understood how they worked. They do require more than normal maintanence. Went through a lot of pistons. We also had these little flyers that would come out. Kind of like Tool Box talks that you see in the construction industry. Not the safety oriented ones but the "hey we been seeing this" flyers. One of the things I remembered was GMs fiddling with the proportioning/metering valve arrangements. The 84s would be a little rear heavy and would let go when the rear comes up. Heavy braking turns, panic stops. This was all hear say, but the 85s went a little too far the other way. Were heavy in the front and would let go on hard stopping turns or hard stopping when wet. Seems that they had it better in 86-87 and they just changed it all anyway. Of course this is all affected by care, tires and options. They should have left the rear heavy and used a height metering valve for each rear wheel. Like are used on light trucks and vans. When the rear unloaded so would the brakes. Anyway, be prepared to have to change things around, when doing mods. You might find you have to fix/mod something else to make up for changes. Some of the differences can be unexpected.
My Fiero has stock rebuilt calipers all around and uses professional grade Wagner "Thermo Quiet" Pads. The master cylinder has also been recently rebuilt and the brake system flushed. With a meticulous brake bleed the braking action is acceptable. It would be nice to have better brakes but the security of having the eBrake is something that I do not wish to give up. I've had situations where I've had to use it, one recently on my truck where the brake lines rusted through and the system bled out. This also happened to a friend of mine and also to my son Doug,. Three incidents that I know of. It has proved the importance of the eBrake to me.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
It would be nice if you could post some links instead of sending everyone searching. I did find the "100 brake upgrade" however there is no link to an evaluation that you did in the first post than I can find.
Too much of a pain to add links when posting from my phone. You linked the correct thread. Look on page 8.
Stupidest ebrake and brake system GM ever built. 
