1. if the parts on the car don't reflect what's on the RPO code sheet, then it's not stock;
2. if it's not the original engine, then it's not stock regardless who replaced it;
3. If a mod was done by a GM dealer before the car was first sold, and there is documentation to that effect (original purchase contract / order sheet) then I would consider it stock;
4. a Mera is not a stock Fiero, it can be a stock Mera though; and
5. I'll look in my records for a definition of option group 3.
If painted with correct paint code and type, it is considered stock but not "Original". Same with the engine. If it is replaced with the exact same engine it is still stock but not original.
[This message has been edited by GTMN (edited 09-02-2014).]
Are you asking, in terms of what it means per random person's opinion, or as per regulations for entering a car into a show in the "stock" class, for example?
Because those can be quite different things.
I would consider a car built entirely of stock-optioned parts (even dealer options), to be stock, for example. But class regulations for shows or such might require matching RPOs, VIN stickers on body parts, etc…
1. if the parts on the car don't reflect what's on the RPO code sheet, then it's not stock;
2. if it's not the original engine, then it's not stock regardless who replaced it;
3. If a mod was done by a GM dealer before the car was first sold, and there is documentation to that effect (original purchase contract / order sheet) then I would consider it stock;
4. a Mera is not a stock Fiero, it can be a stock Mera though; and
5. I'll look in my records for a definition of option group 3.
I agree with all here but 3 and I leave it as a gray area.
Case in point most cars are considered stock if they are as delivered to the dealer by GM. correct type engine, paint color etc.
But the gray area is as such. My car was delivered in 1985 to me by the dealer with the GT wing on a 2M6 SE. The First Formula you could almost say. Now here is the catch the SE was never offered with the wing from the factory and it was a deal by me and the dealer to swap deck lids from a GT on the lot. So while my wing is factory installed on the deck and the dealer installed it on my car and it is documented on my bill of sale I have a hard time considering it stock. While they are stock parts there was no option code either for this model. I would love to consider it stock and if everyone agrees I would be more than happy to say stock but I do not thing most would agree.
Now here is the other issue. I have the T tops installed as a dealer option. Pontiac declared the T top option from 84-87 as a dealer installed option. This means the dealer can have the roof installed by a Cars and Concepts installer and sell the car as new with the full warranty intact. Many dealers here in Ohio were doing this and C&C even installed most of them just as they did with the 88 models. So in the eyes of Pontiac it was an approved dealer option even with out a code and you could enjoy the roof with no far of warranty issues. So I do call this a stock item just clarified as a dealer option.
Generally in the car hobby most recognize that stock is as factory delivered. It can be a replaced engine but it has to be a engine of the same spec to be stock.
In a Fiero small changes are not often challenged in a Corvette it is a major argument on some items.
Are you asking, in terms of what it means per random person's opinion, or as per regulations for entering a car into a show in the "stock" class, for example?
Because those can be quite different things.
I would consider a car built entirely of stock-optioned parts (even dealer options), to be stock, for example. But class regulations for shows or such might require matching RPOs, VIN stickers on body parts, etc…
Yea.
Also I think in general the term "stock" literally is like "stock the shelves"..means an off the shelf in stock part from the factory / dealer. IMO
My Fiero has decals on the rocker panels and wing tips. I purchased it used this way. I've never seen another like this. Based on age, these were installed long ago. But I don't know. I don't see an RPO code that I can identify these on. If they're factory & unique, I have a different opinion of them than if they're common, or not original.
Originally posted by tshark: I'm asking for purposes of discussion. As in, my stock car does such and such. Rather than say, ”my modified car does....”. Mine has some modifications, to be sure, but if I am calling it stock, I don't want to be wrong. Although, I have a holley throttle body or whatever it is that the air intake connects to. I didn't think it was stock when I saw one at the bone yard, because the holley side scoop isn't stock; however, when I got home, both of my Fieros had it. I checked a bunch of pictures of other Fieros, all of which had it. Still not sure, so when the question came up, I just said mine had it when I purchased it, which is true, but the person insisted that I had modified it. I requested that the person show me what was supposed to be there. He told me whatever I took out. I don't know, because I didn't even replace that part.
I just say "my car does" instead of trying to qualify it as stock or modified.
As for the Holley throttle body, all V6 Fieros had them. There's nothing special about it. If someone tries to insist otherwise, they don't know what they're talking about. The side scoop was an optional accessory, and I think could be purchased and installed at the dealer, when buying the car new.
My Fiero has decals on the rocker panels and wing tips. I purchased it used this way. I've never seen another like this. Based on age, these were installed long ago. But I don't know. I don't see an RPO code that I can identify these on. If they're factory & unique, I have a different opinion of them than if they're common, or not original.
What decals? Picture?
Option group #3 contains RPOs:
1SC Option group #3 (1988)AO1,N33,CD4,C60.TR9,D34,K34,AU3
- A01 Window, deep tinted all, Soft Ray - N33 Steering column, tilt type - CD4 Wiper system, pulse - C60 Air conditioner, front, manual controls - TR9 Lamp group - D34 Mirror, visor vanity - K34 Cruise control, electric - AU3 Power door locks
Originally posted by hyperv6: My car was delivered in 1985 to me by the dealer with the GT wing on a 2M6 SE. Now here is the catch the SE was never offered with the wing from the factory and it was a deal by me and the dealer to swap deck lids from a GT on the lot. So while my wing is factory installed on the deck and the dealer installed it on my car and it is documented on my bill of sale I have a hard time considering it stock.
I see where you're coming from, and I agree: I wouldn't consider the wing "stock" in your case because while it meets my "condition 3" criteria, it fails condition 1. When I wrote condition 3 above, the types of things I had in mind were things for which there are no RPO codes such as mud flaps, a decal, or perhaps a nose bra.
Stock = The way the car rolled out of the factory. However that car was optioned. Adding options, or dealer upgrades make the car no longer stock. Replacing original parts with exact manufacturer recommended replacement parts (AC Delco ignition coil, not an MSD coil) makes it still stock.
My Subaru is stock, except for the JDM armrest and fender badges I added to it. Even though they are genuine Subaru parts, they didn't come with the car originally.
Originally posted by tshark: My decals are on the rocker panels and the wing tips. They have a gradient fill. The rocker panel decals run from behind tge front tire to the rear tire. The wing decals have the Fiero logo. The rocker decals have the trim designation.
The dealers usually put that type of stuff on. If it was indeed put there when the car was new, by the dealer, I consider it "stock dealer added". Some people dont. But if it was put on before sold then it is a cool original thing that makes it unique. I think people care too much about stock. Then you have the guy who argued with you about the holley TB, which is stock and he didnt even know that, yet basically called you a liar. He probably thinks the factory sold a V8 version too The term "factory" to me, would apply more to what the car had on it when it rolled off the line.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-03-2014).]
But the gray area is as such. My car was delivered in 1985 to me by the dealer with the GT wing on a 2M6 SE. The First Formula you could almost say. Now here is the catch the SE was never offered with the wing from the factory and it was a deal by me and the dealer to swap deck lids from a GT on the lot. So while my wing is factory installed on the deck and the dealer installed it on my car and it is documented on my bill of sale I have a hard time considering it stock. While they are stock parts there was no option code either for this model. I would love to consider it stock and if everyone agrees I would be more than happy to say stock but I do not thing most would agree.
Also something of note, if it had been a later model year you purchased (when they applied factory VIN decals to panels), the VIN decal on the decklid would not match. Though spoilers dont have VIN decals and could have been swapped... Your purchase also resulted in someone buying an 85 GT without a wing. That car may also now be a dealer "option delete"? I'm not sure if you could factory option delete a wing on an 85 GT?
Many cars just need to be referred to as I bought it new this way. Any inconsistencies would be blamed on the dealer. Unless there is an RPO code (if it is a change that has an RPO code). IMO
I have heard of dealers selling Formulas without door stickers applied, they would hand the stickers to the new owner, who may have chosed not to put them on. Same with 84 Pace Car decals.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-03-2014).]
Originally posted by Khw: Would that disqualify the 84/85 Fieros that had the recall engine swap from being stock?
Well to be clear, in my own opinion the words "stock" and "original" are synonymous. So from that perspective in my mind an '84-'85 with a recall engine swap would not be stock, but I understand not everyone would agree. The reason I believe it would no longer be stock is because '84 Fiero's were built with flawed engines or were maintained with flawed instructions regarding the amount of oil required. A true factory original/stock car would still have the original engine.
Does it diminish the value of the car? Not in the case of the Fiero at this time. But perhaps in some parallel universe or in the very distant future where the Fiero became a highly-prized collector car, then I'm sure most would agree that an '84 car with the original engine would be worth more than one with a replacement engine, even if it had been replaced under the recall. In a crazy world like Bloomington Gold, even removing factory overspray from the underside of a panel diminishes a car's authenticity and value.
Originally posted by tshark: The decals on the wing (as well as the paint on the wing) are in poor condition. Am I doing a bad thing if I restore the decals and paint? I can't figure out how to reuse the decals when I paint the wing, and am not willing to try painting the wing without removing the decals.
Yes, some people assume since something is outside their range of experience, that it's OK to call others liars with impugnity. I really don't know how anyone other than the seller can have a valid opinion on what was or was not on the car when I purchased it used.
You probably won't be able to save the decals if you paint. If you want to paint and retain the decals, you'll most likely need to find new ones to replace them with, after painting. If they are simple single color decals, you can probably get a vinyl shop to create reproductions for you, in the right size.
I found a (very expensive) place that claims they can do these; however, if I replace them, they no longer are whatever they are now. I mean, they were on the car when I purchased the car used. I don't know if they are aftermarket or dealer. Aftermarket is no big deal. My aftermarket is as good as someone else's aftermarket. If it came from the dealer with these decals, I can't replace that.
The prior owner was just a temp owner, and didn't seem to think the previous owner would be any help. The seller (to me) didn't seem to recall seeing decals like this before, either.
I see where you're coming from, and I agree: I wouldn't consider the wing "stock" in your case because while it meets my "condition 3" criteria, it fails condition 1. When I wrote condition 3 above, the types of things I had in mind were things for which there are no RPO codes such as mud flaps, a decal, or perhaps a nose bra.
See that is the trick to this. The truth is there several definitions out there and just depending on the car or group is what one they go by,
Shelby and Corvettes have their own considerations and then you get to other cars where things can get more liberal.
Generally I see it as delivered by the factory and then any dealer options are left to special consideration. Case in point you take a Yenko. A Yenko is not factory stock but can be dealer stock with the addition of modifications the dealer did add to the COPO car.
The bottom line is you can get to splitting hairs but if a car is as in delivered condition or has factory approved modifications it is stock. So yes the replacement blocks would still be considered stock. Now then you get into stock vs. factory original or modified.
In the end it will matter little to the Fiero market as generally the collectors are not going to get this anal on our car as they do with most other cars. The cars they do get this way are more limited in scope and in those cases they look more for original unrestored like a Corvette or a COPO car as there are so few of them left as most were used up and restored.
In todays collector market so many muscle cars are over restored some collectors will pay a max premium for original cars. I had a 82 Camaro I was playing with last year and it had under 10,000 miles. I took it to a show and it looked like crap because it was sitting next to cars of the same year fully restored to a level higher than the original. The one I had was always stored inside and never saw rain but the pain and trim fit of a 1982 Camaro sucked. But on the other hand we sold it for $15K even though it was just a based car with no options but a posi with a V8 and 4 speed. One forgets how bad cars were in the late 70's and early 80's since so many are not original anymore.
Just one other observation. My Fiero is half original paint and nearly perfect. But yet I gigged on orange peel. The parts that have orange peel are the panels with the 30 year old GM paint. These guys have no clue it is original and gig me for it every time.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-03-2014).]
Which is why my car will be parked far away from the show cars. It's a Fiero. What you see is what it is. If you get far enough away and it's dark enough, it looks as good as many other Fieros. I'm only making a representation of it as a Fiero.
My center console is now glued back in some semblance of less warped. Still stock?
Originally posted by tshark: The decals on the wing (as well as the paint on the wing) are in poor condition. Am I doing a bad thing if I restore the decals and paint? I can't figure out how to reuse the decals when I paint the wing, and am not willing to try painting the wing without removing the decals. .
Its all up to you and what you want to do. I doubt dealer added decals will add any value, you would replace them because you wanted to replace them. Honestly its more about sentimental value than investment value.
My center console is now glued back in some semblance of less warped. Still stock?
In my opinion re-glueing factory parts is still stock parts. I suppose I'd look at it like changing the oil or antifreeze. Your questions actually highlight how silly some of the hardcore rules can be, but I suppose in collector car markets when silly can equal more $ it matters.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-04-2014).]
Unless you are entering a concourse judged car show, the difference between stock and original are a moot point. Unless you find an original low mileage Fiero, there will be some changes done to the car. A new distributor cap will probably not be a grey one that was originally in the car.
Its all up to you and what you want to do. I doubt dealer added decals will add any value, you would replace them because you wanted to replace them. Honestly its more about sentimental value than investment value.
That's like the Jeep I used to have. It had one of those decals that says "JEEP" across the top of the windshield. It was probably some sort of Jeep accessory product since it had the full-color AMC logo on it also. People used to ask when I was going to scrape that ugly thing off, but I kind of liked it since it was "retro" with this being long after Chrysler bought AMC. Much better than some sort of "APC" or "Oakley" decal or something like that.
Unless you are entering a concourse judged car show, the difference between stock and original are a moot point. Unless you find an original low mileage Fiero, there will be some changes done to the car. A new distributor cap will probably not be a grey one that was originally in the car.
That is not as much a factor any loner either as most of the big shows are now inviting custom, hot rods and even race cars now to their events. They are looking for cars with interesting histories and one off non stock cars are becoming very popular if they have a interesting history or construction.
In fact it may just help you at a show.
I have see this at all the top shows including Pebble Beach where they have added classes for Hot Rods now.
To put a period on this, those who,saw the decals in person seem to agree that the decals are aftermarket--not dealer options. I don't know how long the decals were on the car, but my guess would be from early in the car's life, as the decals have about the same age and wear.
o I have the original Pontiac on my windshield that came from Pontiac and Motorsports Design. The decal is the very same one that they used on the GTU cars and prototype car back in the day. I got the order form from the Pontiac Motorsports display at the IMSA race I went to. Motorsports Design is the company that makes much of the NASCAR graphics and other racing decals.
I almost took it off years ago but left it on. I am glad I did now as it is more period correct for the 80's now.
