I have already made a decision on going with a 3.4 PR engine from a 93-95 Camero/Firebird, but I'd love to hear from your personal experience with the engine. How long did it take to complete the whole thing from beginning to end? What kind of HP/Torque are you getting? What kind of mods did you use? What was your overall cost? What is your average MPG?
I ask because I want around 200HP out of this engine and plan to make the car look like it just came off the lot. I want people around my area to understand why I drive a fiero,I also want more power to put those ricers in the dust
------------------ Every fiero has a story, It's our job to keep that story alive.
[This message has been edited by zzzhuh (edited 10-10-2014).]
I know the 3.4L engine really well. It is basically an upsized 2.8L with a stronger block and DIS which most people convert back to the 2.8L distributor (it fits right in) . The 3.4L is a nice upgrade and a very easy swap for 160HP . To get this engine to make 200HP extensive modifications or a turbo would be needed. These mods place you in an area where cost vs power becomes a concern. With head porting , a free flow intake system, a good cam/kit, and an improved exhaust might get you close to your goal. If you want 200 horsepower, without any mods, the later 3800 N/A will give you that at a reasonable cost.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I was feeling just like you about 5 years ago when my 36k mile all original GT spun a bearing. I wanted to keep the stock look but at least have the power to pass my wives SUV. I went with a 95 camaro 3.4 rebuilt with a 272 cam, ported tb, lower and middle intakes and sprint headers. I think it cost around 3k to complete and the car ran like a new car when done, I would guess around 170hp at the wheels. The car wasn't very fast but it had more pep then the 2.8, It wasn't going to beat most rice burners or even my wives SUV but it was a clean reliable swap. That picture was before the headers but you can see it was clean, anyway I wasnt satisfied with the power so I started looking into a turbo setup. I never wanted a race car I just wanted respectable acceleration at least comparable to the look of the car. Long story short 5k later and tons of time and labor. Precison turbo and wastegate, frozen boost water to air intercooler, meth injection, 3" stainless exhaust and complete 7730 ECM swap with dis and a 4T60 transmission. All said and done I don't think it had the power of a stock 3800sc, and it cost just as much or more depending what route you go. I heard from all the 3800 guys that I was making a mistake and the 2.8/3.4 is a boat anchor. At the time I didn't want to hear it, but in the end it was a waste of time and money, although it is a strong setup it's not this. I love my new setup and could never compare the two. If you were happy with the 2.8 power then get yourself a 3.4 and you'll be happy again but if your looking for more don't bother, start collecting all the 3800 parts and do it yourself. I'm no mechanic but I went from 3.4 to 3800 in 30 days complete. Then I took it out again to add some more goodies lol.
[This message has been edited by JCircs (edited 10-11-2014).]
I have had a 3.4 PR in my car for about 3 years. It has a Darrell Morse ported throttle body, and port matched intake manifold opening, Rodney's stainless vacuum lines, Rodney's idler pully, Rodney's power pulleys, ported stock exhaust manifolds, 17 lb. injectors, 1.6 ratio roller tip rockers on a stock 3.4 cam, performance timing chain and gears, and a high volume oil pump with brazed pick up. It is noticeabley stronger than the stock 2.8 but I don't think it is putting out 200 horsepower. I am going to pull it and install a 3.4 DOHC because I want the additional RPM range this engine puts out. My current engine will be for sale. PM if you are intersted. If I were to freshen it up, I would replace the cam and lifters with a more agressive grind, port the heads, and do the "Dawg" modification to the stock intake manifold.
I love my new setup and could never compare the two. If you were happy with the 2.8 power then get yourself a 3.4 and you'll be happy again but if your looking for more don't bother, start collecting all the 3800 parts and do it yourself. I'm no mechanic but I went from 3.4 to 3800 in 30 days complete. Then I took it out again to add some more goodies lol.
Beautiful set up! I would love to do a 3800SC but the time/money ration just doesn't seem to work for me. Thank you and every one else for chiming in. I guess hitting 200HP in a 3.4 isn't as easy as I'd hope. I do plan to also do the 'true cold air intake' and a dawg modified plenum as well.
I went with a 95 camaro 3.4 rebuilt with a 272 cam, ported tb, lower and middle intakes and sprint headers.... The car wasn't very fast but it had more pep then the 2.8, It wasn't going to beat most rice burners or even my wives SUV but it was a clean reliable swap.
I picked up a 5-spd '88 Formula last year (to daily drive and autocross), and I'm not going to compare the acceleration to what my '67 Chevelle SS396 had years ago, but I find the basically stock 2.8 to be quite peppy in this car.
I wonder how much of your disappointment with the 3.4 was due to the fact that you were running a slushbox/automatic transmission?
I wonder how much of your disappointment with the 3.4 was due to the fact that you were running a slushbox/automatic transmission?
Excellant question, I was wondering that myself. The forum member who purchased it is planning on mounting a 5 speed to it, I can't wait to see the outcome.
My 88 had a 3.4 crate engine installed years ago. I must have 60,000 miles on the engine. It also had a used 460t installed. I use the car as a cruier, no a race car. It made the Hot Rod Power Tour in 2005 and 2010. I've had no real issues, although I had a new rebuilt 460t installed last year. I have used Amsoil in the car, except for the last oil change and went to M1. (Amsoil distributor retired).
I did the progression as well. stock 2.8, then the 3.4 with 260 cam, dawg plenum, ported exhaust, larger TB, and added a 4T60 to boot. The motor wouldn't have taken too long to do (once the cradle bolts were cut off and the rear cradle bolts were out after cutting a hole in the frame) the transmission added some time. really didn't add up the costs but it ran nice and the 4 speed was worth whatever I spent. But wanted more. sold it when I came across a already swapped SC3800 that wasn't running. prefer the SC3800, although wonder how much more I'd like a turbo. I'd probably still have the 3.4 had I not found the SC3800. Plenty of threads on what it takes to get 200 hp and you get so close to the cost of a SC3800 you might want to wait and do the SC.
not nearly as clean and fancy as Jcircs, when Jcircs does a project he pays attention to the details.
------------------ 1986 Fiero GT fastback SC3800 3.4 pulley, LS1 TB 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee with "big boy" 5.9 motor 1983 Honda Goldwing 1100 Interstate
Honestly, I think with the amount of money you will have to put into a 3.4 to make 200hp, you would be better off to put towards a 3800sc.
I use to get kind of mad every time I posted about improving the performance on my 2.8 and people would jump in and say save for a swap. But now that I own a 3800 car and I have to say I agree with them. Granted the 3.4 is slightly better than a 2.8, not by much. I would hate to see you invest a bunch of time and money into something that you may not be all that happy with in the end. Unless you are really set on a stock looking engine bay I wouldn't go that route.
I own a hopped up 2.8 still that was Blueprinted and balanced Darrel Morse throttle body, intakes and exhaust manifolds, bigger injectors, mild cam, ported heads, different Springs, 7730 computer with a 4t60, and it runs great and seems decently quick, but after driving the 3800sc car, it feels like it can't get out of its own way.
I own a hopped up 2.8 still that was Blueprinted and balanced Darrel Morse throttle body, intakes and exhaust manifolds, bigger injectors, mild cam, ported heads, different Springs, 7730 computer with a 4t60, and it runs great and seems decently quick, but after driving the 3800sc car, it feels like it can't get out of its own way.
I see a common denominator you share with JCircs and his 3.4 engine... that slushbox.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
I wonder how much of your disappointment with the 3.4 was due to the fact that you were running a slushbox/automatic transmission?
I suspect it sucks up a lot of the go factor. Well actually, I more than just suspect it. I have an '86 GT with the 3-spd auto, and an '88 Formula with a 5-spd. There's no comparison in performance. I also find my '84 duke with a transplanted 5-spd more fun to drive than the automatic '86 GT.
I suspect it sucks up a lot of the go factor. Well actually, I more than just suspect it. I have an '86 GT with the 3-spd auto, and an '88 Formula with a 5-spd. There's no comparison in performance. I also find my '84 duke with a transplanted 5-spd more fun to drive than the automatic '86 GT.
My 86 GT with the 4 speed muncie can get up to 40 pretty quick. I was able to beat a brand new audi up until about 35 and then his turbo's kicked in. Obviously he didn't know how to get off the line, but it was impressive to say the least. I think a 3.4 will give me plenty of horsepower/torque, even if I end up getting around 180HP I will be happy.
Let's not forget, a fiero when it is brand new is only pushing about 115 HP to the wheels. Being able to have that car get an extra 65HP with more torque is a pretty good deal considering your keeping it "stock."
I see a common denominator you share with JCircs and his 3.4 engine... that slushbox.
Ehh I don't know if I would agree 100%, mine has a fresh 4t60 which is a lot better than the stock 3 speed. I'm running the same trans and computer he is for his turbo setup. It's good off the line and low end grunt, but like passing someone on the highway, I usually manually drop it out if overdrive first, then when you put it down in passing gear and you can really tell it runs out of breath in the upper rpm. And on that same token, my 3800 is a slush box as well, it has no problem passing people.
I'm just saying $ for $ for the amount of money that the previous owners sunk into my 2.8 they could have had a 3800. The receipt from the performance shop that Blueprinted it and built the motor was $3,200. Then later the 4t60 and the 7730 computer was like another 2 grand.
[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-13-2014).]
I'm just saying $ for $ for the amount of money that the previous owners sunk into my 2.8 they could have had a 3800. The receipt from the performance shop that Blueprinted it and built the motor was $3,200. Then later the 4t60 and the 7730 computer was like another 2 grand.
There isn't a chance I'd put that kind of money into a 2.8/3.4, so I agree with you there. I guess I'm just perplexed when someone states that their 2.8 can't get out of it's own way. It's certainly not a powerhouse, but when running properly and coupled to a manual tranny, it's more than adequate to enable a Fiero to pass other cars on the highway.
One thing I'll say is that the average 2.8 sounds a whole lot nicer than most 3800's. I don't know how or why such a well designed engine sounds so bad (usually).
There isn't a chance I'd put that kind of money into a 2.8/3.4, so I agree with you there. I guess I'm just perplexed when someone states that their 2.8 can't get out of it's own way. It's certainly not a powerhouse, but when running properly and coupled to a manual tranny, it's more than adequate to enable a Fiero to pass other cars on the highway.
One thing I'll say is that the average 2.8 sounds a whole lot nicer than most 3800's. I don't know how or why such a well designed engine sounds so bad (usually).
I will agree with you on the sound. The 2.8 and 3.4 are a very nice aggressive sounding engine. It's too bad the trueleo intake and headers are no longer available because I've read that those really woke up these motors, especially the 3.4 because it's even more choked by the fiero intake than the 2.8.
The 2.8 isn't bad and I would say it's peppy, when I said it felt like it couldn't get out of its own way I was just comparing to having just got out of my 3800 lol.
[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 10-13-2014).]
I have Jcircs' 3.4 Turbo engine now and it is a work of art...should be in my 328/ReMera build within the month:
But with that said...I also have a 3800-SC (daily driver) & DOHC (blast to drive around town)...they are all different engines and drive differently!
I like to have options, but I would have to agree with some above. The best matched engine for the Fiero IMHO is the 3800-SC matched with a Getrag 5-Speed & SPEC3+ clutch!
Don't forget to improve your brakes...larger master cylinder, bigger brake booster and bigger brakes to match that 3800-SC if you go that route.
Do you have a 3.4L fiero with a manual? I only ask cause you seem to point out the fact that most of the people use slush boxes instead of the manual set up. My fiero seems rather 'peppy' as you stated in 1st-2nd and then looses that torque after 3rd. If so, do you think it can run in the 14's? I know an 88 Formula stock could run a 15.7 in a quarter but the GT does carry a bit more weight.
Do you have a 3.4L fiero with a manual? I only ask cause you seem to point out the fact that most of the people use slush boxes instead of the manual set up.
No, my 5-spd Formula which I've had for a year has a "stock" 2.8 engine. (I say "stock" as it has a slightly lumpy idle but goes great, so I sometimes wonder if this engine has been tweaked with a cam etc by a previous owner.)
The reason I posed the slushbox/automatic tranny question earlier is because it seems to me that most people who complain of the performance of the 2.8/3.4 do not have a manual tranny. I think an automatic simply sucks up too much of the available power of a 2.8/3.4 engine. Even when I've driven a buddy's 4.9 Fiero with a 4-spd automatic, I've been completely underwhelmed by it's performance. I'm positive my Formula would walk all over it. Not to say it would beat all 4.9 Fieros with automatics by any means, but a larger engine doesn't guarantee better performance.
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:
My fiero seems rather 'peppy' as you stated in 1st-2nd and then looses that torque after 3rd.
When I merge onto the freeway, I can stretch it up to about 60-65 MPH in 2nd gear, and then 3rd gear still pulls strong. However, considering that the freeway speed limit here is 60 MPH, I don't get much of an opportunity to really open her up and see what each gear will do.
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:
My fiero seems rather 'peppy' as you stated in 1st-2nd and then looses that torque after 3rd. If so, do you think it can run in the 14's?
No idea. I'm into autocross, and have never run a car (Fiero or otherwise) at a drag strip.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-13-2014).]
When I merge onto the freeway, I can stretch it up to about 60-65 MPH in 2nd gear, and then 3rd gear still pulls strong. However, considering that the freeway speed limit here is 60 MPH, I don't get much of an opportunity to really open her up and see what each gear will do.
I would easily say that your car had to of been modified. 2nd gear for me can reach up to about 40 and then it needs to be shifted into 3rd. I would consider that it could just be because of the 5 speed, but I doubt there is that much of a gap between the muncie vs the getrag.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
No idea. I'm into autocross, and have never run a car (Fiero or otherwise) at a drag strip.
I like the idea of auto crossing more so than straight line racing as well. It's just an easy justified way to figure out how fast a car can get.
Oh, I understood why you probably asked. I was just disappointed I couldn't supply you a figure.
One more thing, weren't you the one suggesting a tool that can port the manifolds in about 10 seconds? I could be confusing you with someone else, but if so what tool is it? Any link to where I could buy this tool at?
Originally posted by zzzhuh: I have already made a decision on going with a 3.4 PR engine from a 93-95 Camero/Firebird, but I'd love to hear from your personal experience with the engine. How long did it take to complete the whole thing from beginning to end? What kind of HP/Torque are you getting? What kind of mods did you use? What was your overall cost? What is your average MPG?
I swapped in the 3.4 because my 2.8 blew up, and I needed the car back on the road ASAP. The 3.4 swap was accomplished in a few days, and didn't take much custom work. I used a GM Perfomance PArts crate engine, because I didn't have time to find and rebuild a junkyard engine. And I liked the idea of having a brand-new engine.
The 3.4 V6 in my Fiero currently has the SSI stage 3 camshaft (roughly equivalent to Crane H272), Trueleo headers, and Trueleo intake custom-made to fit a 59mm throttle body from a Buick GN. It also has 19 lb/hr fuel injectors, and a GM '7730 ECM. The headers dump into a custom-built 2.5" exhaust. I never did get around to putting it on a dyno, but it's got some pep. And it sounds like a hot-rod. The engine "wakes up" around 2500 RPM, and pulls hard all the way to the red-line (6000 RPM). Average fuel economy is around 19-20 mpg (mixed city / hwy). The fuel economy would be a little better if the ECM were tuned for economy, but I tuned it for aggressive driving.
That said, after this engine wears out, the next engine will probably be a 3400 or 3500 V6. A stock 3500 V6 should be close performance-wise to my modded 3.4, and would only get better with upgrades. Plus, the aluminum heads are more boost-friendly.
One more thing, weren't you the one suggesting a tool that can port the manifolds in about 10 seconds? ...what tool is it? Any link to where I could buy this tool at?
Yes, it was me... but it was about ten seconds per port, not per manifold. The post is below. Shouldn't be difficult to find a kit similar to the one I used.
My buddy has a Hole Saw kit (similar to what's pictured below) which includes a cutter which is the exact same size as the inside of the manifold ports.
You may not wish to hear this, but it takes about ten seconds per port to do a perfect job! I'm not kidding. I'm surprised more people don't use this method.
A stock 3500 V6 should be close performance-wise to my modded 3.4, and would only get better with upgrades. Plus, the aluminum heads are more boost-friendly.
I changed over from my '84 duke to my '88 Formula at autocross, and I love the extra power, but I can tell there's more weight in the rear end. It affects the handling and I'd prefer to have it lighter back there again.
I'm curious how the weight of the 3500 compares to the 2.8/3.4 engines? I imagine the aluminum heads must help in that regard.
EDIT: I found This thread which discusses engine weights, but there's so much dissent I don't know what to believe.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-14-2014).]
It goes without saying that the alloy heads weigh less than the iron ones. However, the 3x00 engine blocks have some added material to beef-up the lifter valleys, plus the trigger wheel on the crankshaft, and a little extra material in the bottom end (beefier main bearing caps with cross-bolts, and a steel windage tray). So the overall weight difference may not be very dramatic. The CG may be ever-so-slightly shifted downward... not sure if you'll notice that.
...the 3x00 engine blocks have some added material to beef-up the lifter valleys, plus the trigger wheel on the crankshaft, and a little extra material in the bottom end (beefier main bearing caps with cross-bolts, and a steel windage tray). So the overall weight difference may not be very dramatic.
Good points.
I seem to recall that there are alloy heads from the 3.1 which would fit the 2.8/3.4 engines (but that the compression ratio would be messed up because the tops of the pistons are different between the 3.1 and 2.8/3.4 engines). Do you know anything along those lines? Obviously where I'm going with this is that it would be great to be able to bolt alloy heads onto the 2.8/3.4 for some weight reduction.
EDIT: Blacktree, I found you in This thread, so I suspect you know a thing or two about what I was wondering about. Is there such a thing as a production alloy head which would retain the same compression ratio (or at least still allow the use of regular gas) without having to change pistons when bolted to a 2.8/3.4 engine? I realize if nothing else that exhaust manifolds and the intake system would need to be swapped as well.
Or would this all be a complete waste of time, effort and money for a few pounds of weight reduction?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-14-2014).]
Do you have a 3.4L fiero with a manual? I only ask cause you seem to point out the fact that most of the people use slush boxes instead of the manual set up. My fiero seems rather 'peppy' as you stated in 1st-2nd and then looses that torque after 3rd. If so, do you think it can run in the 14's? I know an 88 Formula stock could run a 15.7 in a quarter but the GT does carry a bit more weight.
My 3.4/Getrag is a nice driving combination. It is noticeably stronger in the top gears. I can pull a 5000 ft mountain pass in 5th where I need to downshift to 4th with the 2.8. I did this swap to over come the addtional weight of the Mera bodywork on my car. My stock 2.8 88 GT 5-speed would outrun my Mera with the same engine/trans combo. After installing the 3.4, the Mera was faster than the GT, even with the additional weight of the body. Also the 3.4 retains the nice European exahust sound of the 60 degree V6's. Depending on your altitude you might be able to run a high 14 with a stock 3.4 and a Getrag.
I am also running a 3.4 push rod engine in a Mera. However, I did cheat a bit and added a turbo to go with it. This is not an exceptionally high powered vehicle but handles nicely and jumps a bit when I put my foot into the throttle. Maybe some day I will get a dyno run and see how this vehicle rates wrt torque/HP. This was my first engine swap and the last one using a 3.4. I think that you get more HP for your money with a 3800 SC or a V8 but still enjoy my turbo car.
My 3.4/Getrag is a nice driving combination. It is noticeably stronger in the top gears. I can pull a 5000 ft mountain pass in 5th where I need to downshift to 4th with the 2.8. I did this swap to over come the addtional weight of the Mera bodywork on my car. My stock 2.8 88 GT 5-speed would outrun my Mera with the same engine/trans combo. After installing the 3.4, the Mera was faster than the GT, even with the additional weight of the body. Also the 3.4 retains the nice European exahust sound of the 60 degree V6's. Depending on your altitude you might be able to run a high 14 with a stock 3.4 and a Getrag.
I would love to know what you put in your 3.4. I wanted to swap in a Getrag while I was at it, but I've read that the muncie is a stronger transmission, tho I've heard the gears seem a bit out of place.
I am also running a 3.4 push rod engine in a Mera. However, I did cheat a bit and added a turbo to go with it. This is not an exceptionally high powered vehicle but handles nicely and jumps a bit when I put my foot into the throttle. Maybe some day I will get a dyno run and see how this vehicle rates wrt torque/HP. This was my first engine swap and the last one using a 3.4. I think that you get more HP for your money with a 3800 SC or a V8 but still enjoy my turbo car.
Nelson
Im surprised two people own Mera's commented one after the other. I would love to know what Torque/HP you are getting. I don't plan on turbo charging my car but I don't have the time or the skill to swap a 3.8 or a V8 in my car. Even if my swap comes out to be close to a 3.8SC, it won't take nearly as long
The thing about the 3.4 swap is you can not get the look from any other engine swap. I LOVE how the Fiero intake looks.
I agree. I plan on doing the DAWG modified plenum. I am also going to do the "true cold air intake" set up as well so it breathes better. I will also be utilizing your build thread to complete mine. Be prepared for me to ask you a million questions in the future
The 2.8l was giving me problems and just said screw it. Sure I could have done another swap - but I still wanted to retain the stock look. Is it better? Well it does have more go than the original, but then the original was tired so not a fair comparison. On a recent trip nailed 34 mpg with the stock 3-speed auto.
I agree. I plan on doing the DAWG modified plenum. I am also going to do the "true cold air intake" set up as well so it breathes better. I will also be utilizing your build thread to complete mine. Be prepared for me to ask you a million questions in the future
If you'd really rather have the 3800SC which makes 240 HP stock, versus the 160 HP stock of the 3.4L, then don't waste your money doing the 3.4 swap. Do the cheap/easy mods to your 2.8 now, so it's a little more fun to drive, and save up the money to do the 3800.
If you're thinking of throwing a cam in the 3.4 as part of the mods, be warned that doing so can escalate the cost quickly. You'll have to replace a bunch of gasksets, cam, lifters, front cover seal, any vacuum lines you break in the process (30 year old plastic and rubber can be brittle and come apart easly), etc… You might find that $500 swap you were thinking of doing quickly becoming a $1000 swap, and with a little patience and hunting skills, you can find a 3800 cheap enough to do the swap for less than that.
Don't know if you found this thread yet, but I found it very helpful doing the 3.4. Lots of pictures with prices of things. many would say spent too much, but that was his call. very friendly. I'm sure he'd respond if you pm'd him questions.
LOL, just realized you posted on that thread so you already have read it.
The post is below. Shouldn't be difficult to find a kit similar to the one I used.
