I know, I know, for years we asked for more sub-forums, but the appeal of PFF over other forums was the vibrant discussion and near instantaneous answers to questions. Since the forum traffic has slowed down drastically, maybe it's time to go back to the way it used to be with GFC, Technical, and the Mall as the three main areas?
Just a thought and it might make your job moderating a little easier.
Regardless, thanks for over 15 years of an awesome forum!!
I'd rather have it stay the same as it is right now. It's user friendly (except some people can't figure out PIP.) Plus it looks better than most other forum sites.
Originally posted by zzzhuh: Why change what isn't broken?
But it is "broken" in a sense. People very often tend to post in the wrong forum. The overall look and feel of the site has not changed in literally 15 years. A whole lot has changed in the world since then. It might be possible to use the site on mobile browsers as it is, but it's pretty annoying at the same time, as the site is not designed with aspect ratios and input methods in mind, that are core to how touchscreen phones work.
There are parts of the forum that are completely unrelated to Fieros at all, and arguments that happen there bleed over into the rest of the Forum, through arguments between people, and through the rating system, which doesn't understand the concept that humans are generally horrible judges of character, particularly when they've never actually met the other person.
You yourself also noted another point of pain with the site; PIP. It's not just that people don't understand how to use it, but that it also quite often just doesn't function. It's a noble idea to want to have everyone upload their photos to a place where they are archived along with the threads, so they never end up msising, but due to all the issues that have existed with PIP over the years, and simply because there are so many other solutions for image hosting that people already use, it doesn't work in practice, because it's often not functioning right, and people just don't use it.
The site is also not secured by TLS, so everything is sent over plain text HTTP.
It uses the embed tag for the "new PM" sound, which requires a plug-in, which is insecure, to be run in the browser. It should instead use the HTML5 audio tag instead, at this point.
I'm sure if I wanted to take the time to do so, I could find plenty of other things as well.
I like the different sub-forums. I see no advantage to lumping various ones together.
I like PIP. It works just fine here for those of us who use a Windows computer to post images. In all the years that PIP has been available, it has screwed up very infrequently. Problems are usually at the member's end.... they can't follow simple instructions, and/or their own firewall is the problem.
I can't address potential issues when using phones to post here as I have no experience online with a phone.
There is probably a reason other than the dwindling Fiero population for the slowdown in Forum traffic. Most people have gotten spoiled by Facebook and Instagram, not to mention Twitter, (I admit I don't understand Twitter). But I miss the old days when GFC was a fun place to be. Now I check in about every three days and the same ole threads are there on page one with not much going on.
When I got back from a Fiero show in Abilene I was going to post some pictures but I didn't feel like going through all the work to resize them and deal with the hassle of posting them. On the other hand I often post to Facebook in real time from my phone during an event because it's so much easier. I know Pennock's has a Facebook page but not much is happening there either.
When I got back from a Fiero show in Abilene I was going to post some pictures but I didn't feel like going through all the work to resize them...
Using the batch resizer in a (free) program like IrfanView makes it very quick and easy.
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
...and deal with the hassle of posting them.
Is it actually any more of a "hassle" now than it used to be? If so, what's changed?
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
On the other hand I often post to Facebook in real time from my phone during an event because it's so much easier. I know Pennock's has a Facebook page but not much is happening there either.
Maybe it's easier for you to post images from your phone to Facebook, but who's going to see these images the following day... or the following year? No one.
Let's be honest... if you want to look something up about Fieros, are you going to scroll through some Fiero page on Facebook , or are you going to look here?
I spent a grand total of about ten minutes at one of the Fiero pages on Facebook, and that was enough for me. It sucked big time and I won't go back.
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
I miss the old days when GFC was a fun place to be. Now I check in about every three days and the same ole threads are there on page one with not much going on.
No offence, but when people decide it's too much "hassle" to post images etc, then sure, there's going to be fewer new threads. It's up to individual members to step up and make the forum active.
I can remember back at the beginning of PFF that I used to read every thread. I was familiar with every member. More threads doesn't necessarily mean more "fun".
I vote for quality over quantity.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-17-2014).]
There is probably a reason other than the dwindling Fiero population for the slowdown in Forum traffic. Most people have gotten spoiled by Facebook and Instagram...
Quoted for emphasis. Forums everywhere are down, some way down. I could make a list as long as my arm of forums that were busy just 2-3-4 years ago and are now ghost towns. All kinds of subject matter, not just cars. I think Facebook is where most of the traffic went but not being a member I can't verify that.
Originally posted by css9450: Quoted for emphasis. Forums everywhere are down, some way down. I could make a list as long as my arm of forums that were busy just 2-3-4 years ago and are now ghost towns. All kinds of subject matter, not just cars. I think Facebook is where most of the traffic went but not being a member I can't verify that.
Not just Facebook, but it just went everywhere else. The world outside of forums has advanced, while forums have stayed stagnant. StackExchange and YouTube are probably even bigger reasons why forum participation is down across the board. YouTube has all kinds of random "HOW TO" videos, and SE is a pretty great place to just ask a question and get an answer, without all the crap you get on forums of people arguing about personal preferences, and negging each other nonsensically, as the rules and site structure are built around having objective answers to objective questions.
Forums also tend to be pretty insecure for the reasons I already mentioned. Granted, Facebook is nothing more than a billion dollar platform to allow people to make bad decisions and violate your privacy, but they tend to work pretty hard to keep the site relatively secure so that they are the only ones violating your privacy; outside of any bad decisions you might make on the site, such as making all your personal information publicly visible, of course.
There's also a lot less permanence on other sites. If you make a drunk/enraged/stupid post on Facebook, and realize 30 seconds later what an ass you were, you can just delete it. On a forum, the best you can do is edit it and insert some nonsense apology or such. On Facebook you can delete your account and everything you've ever posted all in one gone and it will pretty much be gone (save of course for any screenshots anyone else might have taken or such). On forums, there is no way to ever delete your aco****. You will always be there and have existed on that forum. It may not seem important, but it's actually a very important feature in the modern world.
Originally posted by Patrick: No offence, but when people decide it's too much "hassle" to post images etc, then sure, there's going to be fewer new threads. It's up to individual members to step up and make the forum active.
I vote for quality over quantity.
And no offense, but if people think it's too much hassle to post images or use the forum, then that's a problem with the forum. It might have been fine 15 years ago when everyone on the forum was using Windows PCs and nobody cared about privacy or security, but the world isn't so naive any more.
And 'quality' can be a bit subjective too. There are a lot of good threads on here, and a lot of good information, but there's also a lot of meaningless BS, especially with the non-Fiero forums as part of the site, that one has to wade through, to get to the quality posts. And then there's no good way for newcomers to really determine which posts are fact or BS. They're just there and you have to make a personal decision on which ones you think are good posts or not.
Originally posted by dobey: ..one has to wade through, to get to the quality posts. And then there's no good way for newcomers to really determine which posts are fact or BS. They're just there and you have to make a personal decision on which ones you think are good posts or not.
But it is "broken" in a sense. People very often tend to post in the wrong forum. The overall look and feel of the site has not changed in literally 15 years. A whole lot has changed in the world since then. It might be possible to use the site on mobile browsers as it is, but it's pretty annoying at the same time, as the site is not designed with aspect ratios and input methods in mind, that are core to how touchscreen phones work.
There are parts of the forum that are completely unrelated to Fieros at all, and arguments that happen there bleed over into the rest of the Forum, through arguments between people, and through the rating system, which doesn't understand the concept that humans are generally horrible judges of character, particularly when they've never actually met the other person.
People that post in the wrong threads aren't paying attention, that is not the site's fault. If you have issues with a mobile phone, than use a computer I feel like your last comment was directed towards you getting in arguments with other people, and thus they give you a bad rating. That is a personal conflict, not an issue with the site.
Originally posted by zzzhuh: People that post in the wrong threads aren't paying attention, that is not the site's fault. If you have issues with a mobile phone, than use a computer I feel like your last comment was directed towards you getting in arguments with other people, and thus they give you a bad rating. That is a personal conflict, not an issue with the site.
People posting in the wrong place isn't just because they aren't paying attention. That sometimes happens, sure, but it is not the main reason for it. And even when they do, the only real moderation on the forum, is Cliff. He can't go through and move every thread that was posted in the wrong place, to the right place. And we shouldn't expect him to do so either.
Telling people to use a different device is a horrible answer to the problem of the site not being designed to work across a wide range of screen layouts and input methods. That will only result in what we've already seen happening, and what jscott1 raised as an issue; less and less activity on the site.
And no, I avoid the OT section. The ratings system is a generally poor design, and it relies on humans who use it poorly. The only thing it's particularly good at, is quickly banning new people (or spam bots) that join the site just to troll and such. I wasn't necessarily talking about the ratings system with that comment, though it is affected by the same problem. I was talking about when people bring personal dislike of other people, or certain political/etc… leanings, and bring that crap into otherwise decently objective technical threads. It quickly deteriorates the thread, and the poopsmithing is left as an exercise for the reader when it's all done. Then 6 months or a year later, someone will find it and start things up again.
I hope not to offend anyone, but if there are certain sub-forums that someone is not interested in, then simply do not read or post in that section; problem solved. The alternative is to remove the sub-forum, all pictures, posts and items that are of interest to other members.
As for PIP, I think many know how I feel about it! The fact that a 3rd party application, that only runs on windows none the less is needed to post a photo in a forum is ludicrous these days. I am not sure what people are supposed to do if they use a Mac, Linux, an iPhone, Android phone or an Apple iPad, or android tablet.
Even thought that I use windows, having to email the photo to myself from my phone, and then post it with PIP is a pain. On other forums I simply post the pictures right from my phone.
Let me stress again how much I appreciate this forum, Cliff and just about everyone here. This is an amazing Fiero resource, and even with PIP the way it is, I stick around and deal with it
For people that really are not on other forums, here is how using PIP compares to other forums:
PFF Forum:
Take Photo
install and run some sort of program to Resize the photo and save it
Run PIP, and browse for photo and upload
PRAY that it uploads, and does not time out, error out or crash
post in a forum
Paste the code from PIP into the post
Submit Post
When the page reloads, PRAY that it worked. (80% of the time I upload fine with PIP, and even then the image is a 404 not found, I have to upload the photo 2-3 times to get it to work)
All Other forums
Take Photo
Make post and click "Insert picture button" This opens the browse for file dialog box on your computer
Browse to directory and select photo (Photo is resized automatically for the particular forum rules)
I have to say that I miss the old days when every day there was always a full page of new threads and posts to look through. It is kind of disappointing how much forum traffic is down these days. I don't see how reducing the number of sub-topics would help much though. I personally have never even used those. I always just go through General, Technical, the Mall, and the Construction Zone and check out everything that's new. I am almost never on my computer anymore because my computer is a few years old and my phone is so much faster and more convenient. I have an android phone and use the photobucket app to upload my pictures and it seems to work fairly well. Only issue is that if I close my photobucket account or remove the pics they disappear from the forum. There probably are some things that could use updating, but it is easier to use than some other forums I have been on before.
I would agree that facebook has definitely hurt forum traffic. I have nothing against the facebook groups out there. I think they work great if you have a quick question that you need an answer to since you get notified right away and can usually converse back and forth with the person that commented in a more timely manner than on here, BUT the facebook group is useless as far as trying to find an old post or information on anything. I know I have tried to find a facebook post that I had seen hours earlier in the same day and it's so far buried just plain gone that it is very frustrating.
I can't count how many times this forum has helped me learn how to do something, or figure out a problem, or just get more information about what I was wanting to do or know. I think we all need to make an effort to keep posting new information here. It is a great place for information, with a lot of knowledgeable people.
I left the Facebook group a while back. Pretty sure it's full of people that are too lazy to use the search function here. I'm a firm believer that anything that will ever happen to a Fiero in the future has already happened to somebody else and there is a thread about it here.
As for the sub-forums, the only one I don't like is the "Other Cars" forum. It's a ghost town in there and usually takes months to get an answer on a problem. If I have a problem with one of my other vehicles I'll break the rules and ask it in O/T and will have my answer a lot quicker.
I honestly have never had a problem with PIP so I can't say much about it. Yeah it would be nice just to have an "upload" button on the reply screen for pics but I get by.
I used pip years ago without problems but use mobile photobucket now because pip is not a option.
I'd like to see features added that make the forum better on mobile devices but other than that this forum is one of the best and should be left alone. If forums are failing, let it die as a forum not another social media site.
I don't mind how many forums and sub-forums there are here, this has got to be the best source of Fiero info out there IMO. Areas that I have no interest in I stay out of for the most part. I'm ol school and remember when there was no internet forums and a car collector could spend his entire lifetime hunting for a fender emblem or a hood ornament for a 49 Nash.
Pennocks Fiero Forum is a god-send. It's the link that keeps us together and its available 24/7 at no cost to us.
The thought of seeing "Page Not Found" one day would be a terrible loss.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Make post and click "Insert picture button" This opens the browse for file dialog box on your computer
Browse to directory and select photo (Photo is resized automatically for the particular forum rules)
Submit post
The local Fiero club forum has a "modernized" interface where there is a button to click on to upload an image directly from one's hard drive when posting. (And a different button to click on if linking to an image at another site.)
Simple, right?
Fool proof, right?
WRONG.
I'm sorry, but some people are just unbelievably hopeless when it comes to following instructions... any instructions. I see the same people month after month at the club forum totally screwing up when trying to post an image using the "simplified" interface.
PIP is not the problem. People are.
Having said that, I'll acknowledge that there may be a need in this day and age to allow non-PC users (Windows or otherwise) a way to effectively post images here.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-18-2014).]
Having said that, I'll acknowledge that there may be a need in this day and age to allow non-PC users (Windows or otherwise) a way to effectively post images here.
IMO, the forum can stay the same... part of the charm is like it's going back in time to the old days of forums when coming here. I frequent Reddit and the like quite often, and I find it rather enjoyable to come here... It's a time machine, per se.
The one thing that really ticks me off a little bit though is that the header image of the Fiero, or the PFF emblem doesn't bring you back to the home forum page. Most forums or websites now a days all have that feature and it throws me off every time! :/
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
No offence, but when people decide it's too much "hassle" to post images etc, then sure, there's going to be fewer new threads. It's up to individual members to step up and make the forum active.
I can remember back at the beginning of PFF that I used to read every thread. I was familiar with every member. More threads doesn't necessarily mean more "fun".
I vote for quality over quantity.
Well we can only hold onto the 90s for so long. A batch resizer like Irfanview? Pulesse. Does that run on Android? What's changed is that I can post my pictures to FB from my phone, without having to resize them, without having to copy and paste and use the IMG tag. And every picture I have ever posted is still there in the cloud. And if FB goes out of business, no problem, my pictures are backed up in the cloud. PFF is one of the few reasons I still turn on my PC.
The IT world has changed since 1999, and Forums in general have not kept up. My biggest pet peeve is when I read a thread I like I'm looking for the "like" button or thumbs up, but nothing. The forum just doesn't feel "modern" like it did 15 years ago.
There was a time when I would have needed full blown rehab if PFF went away. But now the slowdown in traffic has killed the joy I once felt on PFF. I love what Cliff built and wish it was like it used to be, but I'm grasping at straws on what would make it better. Having a bunch of fragmented small ghost forums doesn't seem like it's helpful to me. I'm not suggesting Cliff shutdown and we all go to Facebook version of site, but that might not be the worst thing in the world.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-18-2014).]
What's changed is that I can post my pictures to FB from my phone, without having to resize them, without having to copy and paste and use the IMG tag.
That's terrific for all the people who'll see your pictures (at a Fiero FB page) immediately after you post them. However, the next day, the next week... not so much.
If Cliff could institute a similar method with which to post images here, great... if not, it makes little difference to me. I usually crop and/or tweak my images before posting them anyway, so an added step (to post each image) that takes an extra ten seconds or so is not an issue for me.
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
My biggest pet peeve is when I read a thread I like I'm looking for the "like" button or thumbs up, but nothing. The forum just doesn't feel "modern" like it did 15 years ago.
For a lot of us that use FB for non-Fiero stuff, the "like" button seems rather pretentious. Where's the "dislike" button... that's what I want to know.
Everyone is different. Perhaps sites such as Facebook now suit you better than PFF. That's no knock on you, or me. It's possibly just the way it is.
Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less if Facebook disappeared tomorrow. However, I'd miss PFF very much if it was no longer here to poke around in. It also helps that I have several Fieros, all in need of attention.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-18-2014).]
I like PFF because it isnt like facebook. I think PFF members using facebook instead of PFF are a lot of the reason PFF is slower. We can have a Fiero show these days and no one even posts pics. If they do, its to a facebook link. I'm not sure if its a mentality that is just looking for a bunch of instant likes rather than a conversation over a period of days, but to each their own. If PFF doesnt play well with smart phones (mobile) then that should be number 1 on the priority list I'd say.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-18-2014).]
As for the sub-forums, the only one I don't like is the "Other Cars" forum. It's a ghost town in there and usually takes months to get an answer on a problem. If I have a problem with one of my other vehicles I'll break the rules and ask it in O/T and will have my answer a lot quicker.
.
I dont even think thats breaking a rule, another car is OT because it isnt Fiero related or Fiero technical.
I like PFF because it isnt like facebook. I think PFF members using facebook instead of PFF are a lot of the reason PFF is slower. We can have a Fiero show these days and no one even posts pics. If they do, its to a facebook link. I'm not sure if its a mentality that is just looking for a bunch of instant likes rather than a conversation over a period of days, but to each their own. If PFF doesnt play well with smart phones (mobile) then that should be number 1 on the priority list I'd say.
And hey, check this out... it's a facebook pic!
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-18-2014).]
Originally posted by 2.5: We can have a Fiero show these days and no one even posts pics. If they do, its to a facebook link.
Exactly! There in lies the problem! Recent studies are showing less and less people are using PC's for routine tasks. Tasks such as email, Facebook, twitter and tons more, they are using smart phones and tablets. Posting a picture from a smart phone (Or even a computer) to PFF right now is just not directly possible.
Look at the two options below, which one do you think is easier?
To post a car show picture to Facebook on the phone 1) In the face book app, Snap picture 2) Post.
. .
To post a car show picture to PFF: 1) Snap picture 2) wait till later, some times days if at a distant show, to get to a windows computer (If you are not using a Windows PC, skip the rest, as you can not use PIP. You will need to use a 3rd party service, and the image will probably disappear from PFF in time. 3) Open your email program on your phone, send an email to yourself, choose attach file, browse the phone for the picture and send. 4) Now, seated at your Windows Computer, Open an email program or browse to it in your web browser and then log in 5) Weed through the emails for the one you sent yourself with the picture attached and then save it to your hard drive 6) Launch another program to resize the image, browse the hard drive for the file, load it, resize the image so it is Ok to post on PFF. Save the reduced image back to the hard drive. 7) Fire up PIP and browse the hard drive again, and select the file you saved above, and then click upload. (and keep your fingers crossed that it works to upload the photo). 8) Finally, open a web browser and navigate to the forum and log in. Now browse to the section you with to post in. 9) Create a new post, and then paste that link from PIP into the message. 10) Post
Most people choose option #1, and thus traffic on PFF goes way down.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5: If PFF doesnt play well with smart phones (mobile) then that should be number 1 on the priority list I'd say.
Exactly again, re-read above
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 12-18-2014).]
I am ok with the number of forums, but I never care for PIP - I wish it was more 'built in' like some other forums where there is a button on the message posting page that you can click and upload images directly.
I am somewht out of touch with mobile electronics. Until Cliff improves the picture posting ability, (if and when) would it be easier to upload to something like photobucket from your mobile device?
7) Fire up PIP and browse the hard drive again, and select the file you saved above, and then click upload. (and keep your fingers crossed that it works to upload the photo).
John, you're laying it on rather thick.
I agree that having a way to simplify posting images from a "smart" phone would be great for members here who rely on them, but that doesn't negate the fact that Facebook is an inferior site compared to PFF in regards to categorizing and presenting and accessing Fiero related material.
For anyone who feels their Fiero related uploads are valuable enough to be seen more than a few hours after they've been posted, PFF is the only way to go. IMO, the added "hassle" is well worth the extra few minutes.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-18-2014).]
