I noticed the mobile phone's seems to be a big issue. A great way to improve it is to have a mobile version of the site, or simply make it an application on the app store, or google play (like facebook, instagram, ect.)
Some have stated that they wouldn't "necessarily' miss PFF being gone, but I would!
I get on this site every day to read about people's fiero (and ask questions.)
I wasn't on the site yet to see it "booming" like it was 3-4 years ago, but this site is 10X more reliable than any other site referring to fiero's.
One thread I have noticed "die down" is the build thread.... Seems like no one is doing anything brand new which is unfortunate. I love watching people swap engines and doing different transmissions.
https://www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin/fiero/pdaMain.cgi We have a mobile site but it was meant for slower less capable devices. Too dumb for the mobile devices run now. It doesn't display right, doesn't display enough and didn't have enough features.
To give you an idea about the current mobile site it's called "Pennock's for PDA" Now anyone old enough to remember PDAs knows that a PDA and a smart phone are very, very different things.
I started out talking about sub-forums as a problem/ solution... but overall the issues with forums in general are at the root of the issue, (if there is an issue).
The picture posting thing is really cumbersome. When I get back from an event I just don't feel like going through the hassle to post.
quote
Exactly! There in lies the problem! Recent studies are showing less and less people are using PC's for routine tasks. Tasks such as email, Facebook, twitter and tons more, they are using smart phones and tablets. Posting a picture from a smart phone (Or even a computer) to PFF right now is just not directly possible.
Look at the two options below, which one do you think is easier?
To post a car show picture to Facebook on the phone 1) In the face book app, Snap picture 2) Post.
. .
To post a car show picture to PFF: 1) Snap picture 2) wait till later, some times days if at a distant show, to get to a windows computer (If you are not using a Windows PC, skip the rest, as you can not use PIP. You will need to use a 3rd party service, and the image will probably disappear from PFF in time. 3) Open your email program on your phone, send an email to yourself, choose attach file, browse the phone for the picture and send. 4) Now, seated at your Windows Computer, Open an email program or browse to it in your web browser and then log in 5) Weed through the emails for the one you sent yourself with the picture attached and then save it to your hard drive 6) Launch another program to resize the image, browse the hard drive for the file, load it, resize the image so it is Ok to post on PFF. Save the reduced image back to the hard drive. 7) Fire up PIP and browse the hard drive again, and select the file you saved above, and then click upload. (and keep your fingers crossed that it works to upload the photo). 8) Finally, open a web browser and navigate to the forum and log in. Now browse to the section you with to post in. 9) Create a new post, and then paste that link from PIP into the message. 10) Post
Most people choose option #1, and thus traffic on PFF goes way down.
Yes facebook threads are hard to find, days, weeks, years later, but here's what I do. I create an album for any event that I'm interested in. I post all pictures to that album, and if you are my friend you have zero difficulty finding that album days, weeks, years from now. Yes, the search and archive ability of Facebook sucks compared to PFF, but the real time chat ability is better.
We all have our likes and dislikes and desires for an improved and/or updated forum (not that PFF isn't appreciated in its current form). It only stands to reason that we might approach this from multiple angles.
Originally posted by zzzhuh: I noticed the mobile phone's seems to be a big issue. A great way to improve it is to have a mobile version of the site, or simply make it an application on the app store, or google play (like facebook, instagram, ect.)
An app isn't really feasible, as PFF doesn't provide an API for an app to use. Native apps are also not great for forums, because it then also means people not using the platforms the app is available on, still lose out. The best solution would be to fix the web site to scale properly across a full range of screens and input devices. It's easier to do, and will preserve accessibility across platforms.
Could Cliff edit PFF to support whatever? Very likely Yes. Cliff wrote the software it runs on. Does Cliff have time to do that? Likely not. Example: Cliff still haven't fix � because PFF Templates are HTML version 4.x but missing 1-2 tags in the header that says version and charset. All Current browsers default to charset=UTF-8. PFF needs charset=ISO-8859-1.
Why? Because Cliff doesn't make money for PFF. He's told people many time the ads here just reduce the cost of PFF operation. PFF is a hobby and a money pit and when whiners are too much bother expect PFF to shut down.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Could Cliff edit PFF to support whatever? Very likely Yes. Cliff wrote the software it runs on. Does Cliff have time to do that? Likely not. Example: Cliff still haven't fix � because PFF Templates are HTML version 4.x but missing 1-2 tags in the header that says version and charset. All Current browsers default to charset=UTF-8. PFF needs charset=ISO-8859-1.
Why? Because Cliff doesn't make money for PFF. He's told people many time the ads here just reduce the cost of PFF operation. PFF is a hobby and a money pit and when whiners are too much bother expect PFF to shut down.
I agree with what The Ogre is saying here. We should all be very grateful we have this forum and there aren't pop-ups everywhere and ad's in between every post and a million different sub-forums. Maybe if some of our more tech savvy members would offer some help to Cliff he may be accepting and some changes could come. Don't hurt to ask right?? While you're at it, you could "Buy him a beer"
Could Cliff edit PFF to support whatever? Very likely Yes. Cliff wrote the software it runs on. Does Cliff have time to do that? Likely not. Example: Cliff still haven't fix � because PFF Templates are HTML version 4.x but missing 1-2 tags in the header that says version and charset. All Current browsers default to charset=UTF-8. PFF needs charset=ISO-8859-1.
Why? Because Cliff doesn't make money for PFF. He's told people many time the ads here just reduce the cost of PFF operation. PFF is a hobby and a money pit and when whiners are too much bother expect PFF to shut down.
Then open source the forum software, put it on github, and let other people help improve it.
Ogre, my comment was more in regards to the fact that the discussion hasn't degenerated into hissy fits and insults. Everyone has been acting very responsibly... like adults!
I've made it clear that I like PFF the way it is. However, IMO it doesn't hurt to hear people expressing a "wish list" for the forum in a mature manner. Chances are that Cliff can't make all the changes required to keep everyone happy, but a thread such as this at least lets him know which way the wind's currently blowing.
Then open source the forum software, put it on github, and let other people help improve it.
This is cliffs baby and it's good enough without updates or anyone else's touches. Why do you think we have one moderator? There is no need for them by design, cliff has it set up the way he wants it and it really doesn't matter what we want unless he also thinks it's necessary.
This is cliffs baby and it's good enough without updates or anyone else's touches. Why do you think we have one moderator? There is no need for them by design, cliff has it set up the way he wants it and it really doesn't matter what we want unless he also thinks it's necessary.
Times change, and so do the needs or desires of people. If Cliff doesn't have the time or energy to invest in the forum, moderate it, and implement the changes, then by not allowing others to advance the forum, the only thing that will happen is it will wither and die. The world isn't the same today as it was 15 years ago, nor is the Internet, despite the fact that gasoline prices have fallen almost to what they were, 15 years ago, across the country.
I appreciate Cliff's position, and his original goals with the forum and software, and where it's at today, but 15 year old code that only one person has ever looked at is not the best situation to be in; especially in the present day.
If it belonged to us we could have a say, but it doesn't, if cliff decided to pull it down tomorrow he could and should. You may have thought you where investing in something that belonged to all of us when you post but it still belongs to cliff and he will do what he wants with it. If this was a money making venture he might be interested in bringing people in.
If it belonged to us we could have a say, but it doesn't, if cliff decided to pull it down tomorrow he could and should. You may have thought you where investing in something that belonged to all of us when you post but it still belongs to cliff and he will do what he wants with it. If this was a money making venture he might be interested in bringing people in.
Of course we all have a say. And of course Cliff could turn the site off tomorrow.
You seem to act like you're speaking for Cliff. You are not Cliff. Cliff can reply himself to any suggestions made in this thread if he wants to. He doesn't need you to try and speak for him.
Getting back to the roots of this personal project called PFF, funded by private time and money, might help us be a little less critical of the way it runs. Most of us already know that it's very unlikely Cliff will invest much more of his time and money into chasing after new formats when he's already expressed doubts about his desire to keep this platform running. Criticizing the forum's format and Cliff's management of it isn't going to influence him in a positive way, IMHO. If people want change, they have to step up like Cliff did 15 years ago, and stop counting on others to foot the bill.
I for one am thankful that someone had the motivation to create the forum, maintain it, and make it popular for so long in its current format. I still believe that it is the best repository for Fiero related information out there, bar none. I also accept that everything has a life cycle that ebbs and flows. But I won't abandon this site just because someone somewhere said that forums are no longer the flavour of the month, or because I might save a few clicks of a mouse to upload a photo. IMHO it's time to support the forum, rather than knock it, as a way to thank Cliff.
Of course we all have a say. And of course Cliff could turn the site off tomorrow.
You seem to act like you're speaking for Cliff. You are not Cliff. Cliff can reply himself to any suggestions made in this thread if he wants to. He doesn't need you to try and speak for him.
I'm just saying the way it is. I did message cliff years ago about a feature I thought we needed and was told things he can say for himself.
Originally posted by Bloozberry: Getting back to the roots of this personal project called PFF, funded by private time and money, might help us be a little less critical of the way it runs. Most of us already know that it's very unlikely Cliff will invest much more of his time and money into chasing after new formats when he's already expressed doubts about his desire to keep this platform running. Criticizing the forum's format and Cliff's management of it isn't going to influence him in a positive way, IMHO. If people want change, they have to step up like Cliff did 15 years ago, and stop counting on others to foot the bill.
But if he doesn't want to invest more time and money into it, why not open source the code and let those of us with the skills to make the changes, make them? Or at least give some of us a way to contribute changes to it if he really doesn't want to make it open source for whatever reason. And why not let some additional people moderate?
It's hard to step up when there is no access. Building a completely new site isn't terribly difficult, but it wouldn't have the people and all the information that has been placed on here, from those 15 years.
Is wanting the forum to be a bit more accessible and usable by everyone really such a horrible thing to ask for?
I myself used PIP for years with few problems....so I knew exactly how to set it up and use it. One day it simply stopped working. Not being real computer savey, I didnt feel like spending 18 hours trying to get it working again. So many others also have problems with it, also with years of using it before. It would not even install on my next couple of new computers. I simply found another place to post pics from that was just as simple. You never have to resize anything ever. Picturetrail automatically resizes any picture for going directly into a forum. If I remember, you had to resize a picture to use PIP. You dont have to type anything at all, just go to your photo and click copy, come to the forum and click paste....works everytime.
Originally posted by dobey: Is wanting the forum to be a bit more accessible and usable by everyone really such a horrible thing to ask for?
No one's saying not to ask. But remember we're only allowed to use this space and the wealth of information in it at his pleasure. It's exclusively his forum, with his name on it, so referring to the site as archaic, or that you'd rather post your pictures using someone else's site isn't going to win any brownie points. He owes us nothing and some of us have lost sight of that. I don't know anything about Cliff, but I'd entertain private offers of real, tangible volunteer work to make the site better, far sooner than I would act on Joe-Blow publicly using my site to voice his unhappiness with me.
Edit: typo.
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 12-19-2014).]
As a noob who joined 4 years ago this month, I feel qualified to offer some input on this topic. I would not have bought a Fiero if this forum did not exist. I have used it at every step as I slowly swap a Quad into my Fiero. It's an irreplaceable resource. I'm amazed that Mr. Pennock makes it available as a hobby. I hope it lasts forever, or at least until I get my Fero on the road.
I haven't noticed any drop off in activity, but I'll take your word for it. I offer two opinions, one as a noob and one as someone whose day job is managing content for a news web site. One, I would post more photos if the process were simpler. I take a lot of pictures of what I'm working on. I hardly ever post them because I'm lazy. Two, in my job I'm convinced that our policy of posting photos with our stories is a crucial part of our success. More photos=more page views..
I love this forum. I like seeing what everyone is working on or talking about. Even the arguments are usually interesting. Optimizing the photo upload process and making the site mobile friendly are wishes, but I'll still use and love the site even if they don't come true.
I use PFF on my Android all the time and don't mind the current non-mobile format. Sure I have to zoom in/out to read and select things, but I really like that it has the same feel as when I am at my laptop. Several other forums (like LS1 Tech) are setup to be more mobile friendly, but the viewing experience is completely different (might as well be on another site) and the pop up ads block 90% of the screen until you click them gone on nearly every page you access - so which is more intrusive: zooming to size, or closing ads on every page so you can read it? I have long stopped viewing LS1 Tech on my android.
Traffic on PFF is certainly down from its peak (same could be said for almost every forum), as there used to be a time when a single day's posts would exceed page 1 in GFC, now you can have 3-4 days worth of posts on the 1st page. So posting is certainly down, but there are still a lot of cool build threads going on, information being shared, and help being given.
Speaking of those build threads... what makes PFF great is the information and supporting pictures with explicit details on how our cars work and what can be done to them. So while facebook might be easier to post picture to, the posted info is more about pics (easy), less about text (less easy), and sharing info (typing on a smart phone isn't as fast as a real keyboard). Its more like "here is what I did", where as on PFF, its more likely to be "here is what I did and how you can do it too".
PFF is Cliff's baby and his creation. Adding moderators or using others to add features is like having a girlfriend/boyfriend move into your house. While that person is just a visitor in your house, your living room layout and furniture is just fine. After they are moved in for a while, suggestions start about moving things around, replacing some of the items, etc.. until one day you walk in to the living room and notice that there is nothing left or "your living room", its "their living room" in "your house". So I can understand and fully support Cliff wanting to keep PFF under his exclusive control.
Originally posted by fieroguru: I use PFF on my Android all the time and don't mind the current non-mobile format. Sure I have to zoom in/out to read and select things, but I really like that it has the same feel as when I am at my laptop. Several other forums (like LS1 Tech) are setup to be more mobile friendly, but the viewing experience is completely different (might as well be on another site) and the pop up ads block 90% of the screen until you click them gone on nearly every page you access - so which is more intrusive: zooming to size, or closing ads on every page so you can read it? I have long stopped viewing LS1 Tech on my android.
PFF is Cliff's baby and his creation. Adding moderators or using others to add features is like having a girlfriend/boyfriend move into your house. While that person is just a visitor in your house, your living room layout and furniture is just fine. After they are moved in for a while, suggestions start about moving things around, replacing some of the items, etc.. until one day you walk in to the living room and notice that there is nothing left or "your living room", its "their living room" in "your house". So I can understand and fully support Cliff wanting to keep PFF under his exclusive control.
Nothing about improving the site design to work better on mobile would require adding full screen ads, or have a particularly different experience when using a laptop versus a phone.
And that is a horrible comparison. Having a properly managed open software development model, or decent moderators, is nothing at all like having a partner move in and start bitching about all the things you're not doing. But if you own a house, sometimes you might need to hire a plumber/roofer/electrician/whatever though, to improve part of your house.
We can all sit and speculate all day long with Cliff this and Cliff that, but in the end, this is a site about the community. And a community isn't a single person. If Cliff decides to just throw full screen ads up on every page, then more and more of you are going to stop using it, and there will be several months worth of posts on the first page, no pictures or information will be shared, and the forum will wither into obscurity. That isn't a healthy community.
Originally posted by dobey: That isn't a healthy community.
Perhaps not your definition of one, but I would much rather see a smaller site dedicated to Fiero ownership, maintenance, and modification, than one with 10 times the membership who spend most of their time bickering in Off Topic subjects. Where's the health in that?
I like the forum formatting just like it is. The picture thing is a bit of a PITA, but it's not a show stopper.
My main complaint about PIP is that when I upgraded my computer from XP to Win 7, all of the PIP "history" links were broken, since it refers back to where they are on the original computer. (And of course, all of those images are in different places/folders, comparing XP to 7.) If that happens to everybody, there are a lot of duplications on Cliff's image server, since people will invariably just re-upload the image.
With all of that said... Facebook could die tomorrow, and I would still miss it. I would miss all the contacts that I have re-established and new friends that I have made. But I would get over it.
If the Forum were to go away, I would be lost. This is, without a doubt, my favorite place on the web. It has been for 15 years. I very seldom post to the Fiero groups (and there are a bunch of them) on FB. They're just too fragmented and... transitory? I would never count on being able to refer back to anything that is posted on Facebook. When I want my Fiero fix, I just come here.
I think that any discussion in which people respectfully express their opinions is a good discussion.
One interesting thing, in the past any thread directed personally to Cliff would be answered by him in the thread. He either doesn't want to responds or is too busy to even notice it.
Don't get me wrong, I thanked Cliff in my original post, this is not meant to be a whining complaining thread. I love what he has done and few others have been posting for 13 years as I have...
But on the other hand, could it be just a little better, with just a little effort? Maybe...maybe not. I personally think that the amount of forum traffic, (which is way down as reported by Cliff himself) would be better served with fewer forums. The issue with posting images is a bit of a side issue. Not the jist of my original post.
Originally posted by Raydar: My main complaint about PIP is that when I upgraded my computer from XP to Win 7, all of the PIP "history" links were broken, since it refers back to where they are on the original computer. (And of course, all of those images are in different places/folders, comparing XP to 7.)
You can fix the history.dat file... Assuming you save all pictures in same folder is very easy... because the history.dat is simple txt file. Short version: Copy old pictures to new local. find old history file (xp used c:\Documents and Settings\USERNAME\Application Data\PIPData USERNAME=you user name on the computer.) open a copy in wordpad highlight the old picture folder and hit ctrl-h fill in new local in replace with and click "replace all" save to replace current file. (should be in C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\PIPData)
if needed You can merge two files too using simple copy from one and past in the other in wordpad.
Like need to show hidden files etc And uncheck hide extensions for known file types in folder options, view tab, in my computer. MS default to hide extensions is a big security problem. I leave that off all the time.
But if he doesn't want to invest more time and money into it, why not open source the code and let those of us with the skills to make the changes, make them? Or at least give some of us a way to contribute changes to it if he really doesn't want to make it open source for whatever reason. And why not let some additional people moderate?
It's hard to step up when there is no access. Building a completely new site isn't terribly difficult, but it wouldn't have the people and all the information that has been placed on here, from those 15 years.
Is wanting the forum to be a bit more accessible and usable by everyone really such a horrible thing to ask for?
There are other Fiero forums. They have open source code and multiple moderators. Feel free to seek them out. You may like them better. Some people probably do and that's part of the slowdown. I've visited other sites but always come back here because I prefer the way Cliff runs his site.
Originally posted by theogre: Could Cliff edit PFF to support whatever? Very likely Yes. Cliff wrote the software it runs on.
Sorry, but this is just not the case. The forum software is called phpBB and is used by many sites on the net.
quote
Originally posted by dobey: open source the forum software, put it on github, and let other people help improve it.
It already is open source software. Normally on a phpBB forum, there is a "Powered by phpBB." at the bottom of the forum pages with a link back to their site when you can get the source, and download the software. For some reason the link is is not at the bottom of the PFF pages. There are tons of plugins for phpBB from integrating Facebook, uploading images, file posting / hosting, liking posts, polls, advanced WYSIWYG post editors and tons more.
He may not have written the forum software, but Cliff has most certainly put this all together to create the best Fiero Forum on the Internet. This is an indispensable source of information I know I personally could not do without!
You can checkout and download the phpBB software at https://www.phpbb.com/ (It is currently down, as they had a hacker get into their database and are working on recovering and testing everything)
It is a pretty powerful piece of customizable software, Here are a couple other forums that use it:
Originally posted by JohnWPB: It already is open source software. Normally on a phpBB forum, there is a "Powered by phpBB." at the bottom of the forum pages with a link back to their site when you can get the source, and download the software. For some reason the link is is not at the bottom of the PFF pages.
The link isn't there because PFF is not running on phpBB. It is not even written in PHP. PHP doesn't use cgi scripts hosted in the cgi-bin directory.
PFF is custom software that Cliff wrote (I think in PERL or C/C++) and has never released to the public.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: Sorry, but this is just not the case. The forum software is called phpBB and is used by many sites on the net.
Maybe current software... Or Not. Do PFF search. Cliff has made statements said otherwise... Cliff was in "trouble" writing his version w/ original authors because First version of PFF was on limited free version of paid software called The Ultimate BBS. (Cliff may have deleted the thread.) Long before open source. I don't know the end result of complaint... just that PFF is still here. Some PFF pages still have:
Strange.... Cliff had told me in a PM a long time ago when we were chatting about finding a way to upload pictures when you are posting. (I looked, I no longer have the PM) that PFF was run on phpBB. I then looked it up, and bookmarked it under the "Fiero" bookmarks with a note "this is the software PFF runs on". I could not remember the name off of the top of my head when I posted above, and had to search my bookmarks to find it.
regardless, it is still the best Fiero Forum on the net!
OT feels like an extended family to me and like all families we have disagreements. Please don't consider taking it down. Since I have pretty much finished my builds and have nothing more to add I rarely post in the other forums but I always check them to see what other people are up to. Lots of valid points here and I've had my problems with pip plus I recently switched to a macbook after getting fed up with virus attacks on my windows laptop. I welcome any improvements but I have absolutely no right or interest in pressuring Cliff. It could turn out to be killing the goose who laid the golden egg and PFF is really a golden egg to us Fiero fans.
Originally posted by theogre: Maybe current software... Or Not. Do PFF search. Cliff has made statements said otherwise... Cliff was in "trouble" writing his version w/ original authors because First version of PFF was on limited free version of paid software called The Ultimate BBS. (Cliff may have deleted the thread.) Long before open source. I don't know the end result of complaint... just that PFF is still here. Some PFF pages still have:
I remember that phpBB discussion thread as well Ogre. I won't go in to it, but there was a disagreement about the format and code used for the forum quite a few years back.
I also remember, when there were fewer forums, and quite often, the "spirited conversations" from any one forum (example-The Mall) spilled over into all the rest (GFC-Tech-and OT) . It wasn't pretty.
Originally posted by maryjane: I remember that phpBB discussion thread as well Ogre. I won't go in to it, but there was a disagreement about the format and code used for the forum quite a few years back.
I also remember, when there were fewer forums, and quite often, the "spirited conversations" from any one forum (example-The Mall) spilled over into all the rest (GFC-Tech-and OT) . It wasn't pretty.
Don't want to discuss phpbb too much either, but am glad the forum isn't running on that. It's notoriously bad in terms of security. And it's PHP.
As for discussions spilling over, they still do sometimes, unfortunately. I don't think having more forums necessarily helps that (or at least, not any more, it might have helped back in the day when we had 20K people actively posting on the forum).
I have no problem with it as it is. I'm sure Cliff's been doing this forum out of his love the cars and not for the money don't generate; stop bitchen people or volunteer your time to make the supposed changes need.
I have no problem with it as it is. I'm sure Cliff's been doing this forum out of his love the cars and not for the money don't generate; stop bitchen people or volunteer your time to make the supposed changes need.
My post asked a question... not sure that qualifies as bitchen.
the forum is fine as it is... I was just wondering if there is a way to make it a bit more dynamic like it used to be.
This thread reminded me that I had never donated to the website in all the years I've used the site, so $10 went cliffs way. I recommend this to anyone who appreciates the forum and wants to contribute. Maybe if you donate enough money and beg cliff will add a forum feature for you.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 12-30-2014).]
