On 17 October I paid a mechanic who's supposed to be good with Fieros to swap in a 4T60 and a 3.4L pushrod from a Camaro into my 1987 Fiero GT. Instead of putting in a 4T60, they put in a 4T60-E (I have no idea how you make that mistake), but I let it go because I trusted they knew what they were doing. Well, it's 29 January, and as of two weeks ago the engine was in the car but still not running.
My question to you guys of the Fiero community - how long would it reasonably take a professional to put in a 3.4 pushrod and a 4T60-E? Am I being impatient expecting it to be at least running after 4-5 months?
one problem getting the 4t60e trans to run is going to be a chore. Now I did a 3.4 with a 4t60 in about a month and i'm not a professional i.e working 8 hrs a day on it. That swap on your 87 can be done in about a week.
I've done a 3.4 pushrod swap before and I had it completed in about 6 weeks just working on it on the weekend. My swap still used the stock TH125 transmission though but I did have a shift kit put in. Eventually I'd like to do a 4T60 swap sometime. I'm not a pro at transmissions but I think the hold up on your project is the fact that your mechanic installed a 4T60-E and there is no way the Fiero ECM can shift that transmission. He would have to find a way to wire two ECM's together and to work together which isn't something that he's likely to accomplish. You're better off pulling the 4T60-E and swapping a 4T60. It will be frustrating to have to do that I'm sure but trying to get a 4T60-E to work will be more frustrating in the long run.
------------------ 87 Fiero GT 3.4 Pushrod with 7730 ECM & DIS 88 MERA #8013 85 Fiero SE with 3.1 pushrod 86 Fiero SE 2.8 stock http://www.youtube.com/LostNotForgotton
If you ignore the use of an incorrect transmission, this swap is one of the easiest ones possible. You do have to relocate the starter (drill and tap two holes in the block) but the rest is just assembling the parts from the 2.8 and 3.4 engine with new gaskets. With a professional mechanic and equipment this swap should not take more than two weeks. IIRC Ed parks at the old Fiero Factory used this figure as his standard swap time for the 2.8 to 3.4 push rod swap. If you elect to clean up the frame, powder coat, paint, or other cosmetic/performance improvements, the number is obviously going to be higher.
If it has been four months, the mechanic may not be putting much time at all into this work and may be working on it only when he has otherwise slack time. This should be discussed with the mechanic if you want to know why the swap is taking so long. BTW, I do have a swapped 3.4 push rod with a turbo so I have some personal practical experience with the process.
If all of the parts are in-hand, a 3.4/4T60 can be done (without cleaning/painting/etc.) in a couple of days by a competent mechanic. It is nearly bolt-in, and requires minimal fabrication/modification. Allowing extra time for sourcing brackets/mounts/axles/VSS head also comes into play if the parts were not in-hand when starting the swap. How is he planning on controlling the 4T60-E? The Fiero ECU will not work.
On 17 October I paid a mechanic who's supposed to be good with Fieros to swap in a 4T60 and a 3.4L pushrod from a Camaro into my 1987 Fiero GT. Instead of putting in a 4T60, they put in a 4T60-E (I have no idea how you make that mistake), but I let it go because I trusted they knew what they were doing. Well, it's 29 January, and as of two weeks ago the engine was in the car but still not running.
My question to you guys of the Fiero community - how long would it reasonably take a professional to put in a 3.4 pushrod and a 4T60-E? Am I being impatient expecting it to be at least running after 4-5 months?
Looks like the problem is in your first sentence. You paid "Hopefully not in full" for a job before it was started. He's got your cash and now he may have no incentive to get the job done not to mention not having all the parts/materials to start it.
Perhaps a written contract signed by both parties would of worked better. Set the price & payment terms. Never pay with cash!! Itemize the work to be done and major components needed. Set a start date and a completion date that you both agree on. All parts should be acquired before work begins. A signed contract with down payment can cover major parts. A contract could also go as far as providing a Certificate of Insurance "from the mechanics carrier" just in case his shop burns to the ground in the middle of the night. And then the "what if" factors should be specified. ie; he put the wrong tranny in and can't get it to work and he can't return it for a refund.
Hope you can get this worked out.
As kirk once said "I take it the odds are against us and the situation is grim?"
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
He said he's going to use a separate computer to control the transmission, but since the car won't start because of a bad harness, there's no way to tell if it is working or not.
As Nelson said, I highly suspect he's not considering my car a priority, especially since his build threads on PFF get more pictures and updates than I have gotten about my car. And recently my calls haven't been returned.
I paid about 2/3rds of the cost upfront, with an itemized contract, but I overlooked a completion date, which I feel stupid about. I paid with a credit card on PayPal with descriptions of reasons for payment, so I'm covered there. But it's far from a professional contract, so I'm hoping he eventually delivers without lawyers getting involved - we both lose in that case, though right now I'm out a car and $1800.
As Nelson said, I highly suspect he's not considering my car a priority, especially since his build threads on PFF get more pictures and updates than I have gotten about my car. And recently my calls haven't been returned.
I paid about 2/3rds of the cost upfront, with an itemized contract, but I overlooked a completion date, which I feel stupid about. I paid with a credit card on PayPal with descriptions of reasons for payment, so I'm covered there. But it's far from a professional contract, so I'm hoping he eventually delivers without lawyers getting involved - we both lose in that case, though right now I'm out a car and $1800.
Any business deal requires a certain amount a trust. One person has to either perform the work and expect to get paid or the other person has to pay and expect the work to occur.
The Fiero lansdscape is littered with broken trusts, usually by vendors who accept more work than they can handle...or they fall behind on their bills or both. So they accept more work and fall even further behind and they accept more work to pay the bills, and the cycle repeats.
If you expect Paypal to help you then you are mistaken. They did exactly what you asked and that was to transfer money. Your transaction is not going to qualify for any kind of money back guarantee, (only certain transactions on eBay will qualify).
Your only hope is to convince your guy to finish as soon as possible, or cut your losses and get your car with a flatbed before it's too late. If all you lose is $1800 consider yourself lucky. Many on here have lost 10 times that amount.
I've been consulting with a lawyer, I'm aware of what Paypal can and can't do. The important thing is that when you make payments through paypal, always document on the payment what the money is going toward fulfilling. Whether it's a bill, contract, service, etc. If it comes to it I am fully prepared to use every legal means to get back as much of my money as the courts will allow.
That being said, I'd much rather have my car back and running.
EDIT: I also have audio recordings of every conversation we've had regarding the car, which my lawyer assures me is a good thing. It helps to be paranoid sometimes.
[This message has been edited by BabyEating Dingo (edited 01-30-2015).]
If he's a member of PFF, posting build threads and did some reading on the 3.4 and 4T60 swap before he started then there is a problem. it's well documented how to do both swaps and it's been clear the electronic version is not plug and play.
It's good you have a lawyer involved as I think you and he/she will become pretty good buddies by the time this is over. 4 months, cutting off communication, excuses.................I take it he's too far away to show up at his shop every Friday to see progress? In any event, hope this works out for you and you get a completed car sooner rather than later. the 3.4/4T60 combo is a great to drive. you'll enjoy it a lot.
If you found a fiero mechanic in SA, I would love to know who it is. I have lived there for 15 years and could never find anyone outside of AAFO, who was even remotely interested in doing a swap. I do all the work myself with the exception of needing specialized items like A/C or alignments. The best place to go for that stuff is Goodyear off of Bandera road and mainland. Fieroseblack used to be the manager there until he retired, the mechanics know the cars pretty well there. I have 11 months left in Abilene then im moving back to SA and the club will be set-up again. Feel free to contact me anytime for anything fiero related.
... Instead of putting in a 4T60, they put in a 4T60-E (I have no idea how you make that mistake), but I let it go because I trusted they knew what they were doing. Well, it's 29 January, and as of two weeks ago the engine was in the car but still not running.
Yup - sounds like it didn't go as easy as planned, and now they figure the time to make it work is costing THEM money unless they do it in their "free time" Of course, it will now be a "low priority" on their "to do list" and they'll always manage to be too busy to finish up with the project. Months from now - you may still be in the same predicament (they could hold your unfinished car for "ransom").
I don't know this guy at all, but his "MO" is just like all the others before him...
broken promises, delays, and excuses...and meanwhile your car sits in the weeds with a tree growing through the engine compartment. Seen it a thousand times. My advice is take your lawyer to his shop and get your car NOW! Settle the money aspect later, but the longer your car sits, the less likely he will ever finish it.
It is not just Fieros either. Back in 1996 I bought a 1970 Jaguar XKE off ebay. I drove to South Florida from the Ocala area and met the seller at a storage warehouse, gave him the cashiers check and got the title and started driving it up the turnpike, ( they had assured me it ran perfectly). I got about 20 miles when the engine started making an awful knocking sound. I called the seller and he offered me a refund or the choice to have his mechanic repair the car at no cost ( I should have taken the refund!) To make a long story short it took three months to get the car back and when I did they had taken off the original triple carb setup and replaced it with dual carbs and the engine was leaking oil out of every possible gasket. I had to spend a few thousand with a trusted local mechanic to get the engine right.
Unless you are reasonably wealthy , do not pay people to work on your hobby car .If you can't do the work your self , there are very few reputable shops that can be depended on in the Fiero swap world . It is a sad tale that keeps repeating itself .Forget the lawyer , go to the shop with a tow truck and get your car and cut your losses .You have already paid up front , so he can't claim you owe him more money .
Unless you are reasonably wealthy , do not pay people to work on your hobby car .If you can't do the work your self , there are very few reputable shops that can be depended on in the Fiero swap world . It is a sad tale that keeps repeating itself .Forget the lawyer , go to the shop with a tow truck and get your car and cut your losses .You have already paid up front , so he can't claim you owe him more money .
I agree 100%.
Even more reason is that when, (not if) the car needs service very few mechanics are going to want to touch it let alone understand what is wrong with it because it's all custom. You need to understand the wiring and the mechanicals so that you can affordably repair it.
I recommend that you get the car from his shop asap. If it gets confrontational and he is forced to finish the car I can't imagine him doing a good job. You can still take legal action after you have the car back but IMO unless the attorney is working for free you will be wasting money on legal bills. There is also the chance that if you turn it into a legal battle the shop will start collecting exorbitant storage fees. Best of luck.
I talked to him this morning, and he says he's confident he can have the car done once he gets in some part or other. I appreciate all the advice from the collective Fiero mind, but it's still far to everyone's benefit if I can get my car back completed, in any condition, than if I have to take it back, get lawyers involved, and sort out the mess of what's left of my car. He isn't being confrontational and he doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who'd do something petty like damage it. Seems like a decent guy who got over his head. We'll see though - if it's not running in another two weeks, I already have another guy lined up to finish the job. And all the legal paperwork that may be necessary.
If all of the parts are in-hand, a 3.4/4T60 can be done (without cleaning/painting/etc.) in a couple of days by a competent mechanic. It is nearly bolt-in, and requires minimal fabrication/modification. Allowing extra time for sourcing brackets/mounts/axles/VSS head also comes into play if the parts were not in-hand when starting the swap. How is he planning on controlling the 4T60-E? The Fiero ECU will not work.
I agree.
I'd accumulated basically all the parts needed for my Fiero's pushrod 3.4L engine swap. However, ensuring the parts are the correct ones sometimes is no small task. Why not? The mechanics with whom I currently do business are quite competent, but sometimes the parts suppliers and parts repackagers are not. For example --- regardless of what the part number says on the outside of the parts package --- sometimes the part number of the inside of the package is not the correct one.
Conversely, there was one time when the part number on the outside of the package didn't match the one on the inside of the package, but the latter actually was the correct part number.
The primary differences between the swap olejoedad mentioned above --- versus mine --- were my 3.4L engine swap employed the original TH-125 automatic transmission that came with the original 2.8L Fiero engine, but the 3.4L engine was cleaned up and painted.
The "parts-in-hand" installation time was about 3 days, ending the evening of December 31, 2006, delivered to my home.
That was a bit more than 8 years ago, and my 3.4L Fiero still runs strong, perhaps partly because I and the mechanics I deal with routinely understand one another, and don't try to nickel-and-dime each other.
I talked to him this morning, and he says he's confident he can have the car done once he gets in some part or other. I appreciate all the advice from the collective Fiero mind, but it's still far to everyone's benefit if I can get my car back completed, in any condition, than if I have to take it back, get lawyers involved, and sort out the mess of what's left of my car. He isn't being confrontational and he doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who'd do something petty like damage it. Seems like a decent guy who got over his head. We'll see though - if it's not running in another two weeks, I already have another guy lined up to finish the job. And all the legal paperwork that may be necessary.
I hope you are right...
But history is not in favor of this outcome. The vast majority of times the situation is unrecoverable, like a flat spin, and a crash is inevitable. If he got in over his head he is not likely to suddenly get a wad of cash or time to magically finish your car. Your car will always be lower priority to the job that just walked in the door with fresh meat, I mean cash.
If he's a truly honorable guy he will follow through and finish your car. But if he's like most of us and likes to eat and have a roof over his head, he'll continue to accept new work and new money and never get around to finishing your car. Don't ask me how I know this.
Here's a related question about the work being done on my car...
So he said he had to swap in an 88 cradle to make the 4T60E fit with the 3.4 V6. In the first picture it looks like he did the strut relocation (along with painting my previously beautiful engraved intake manifold ).
But this is clearly the factory 87 suspension.
Am I missing something, or is this guy pulling my leg?
[This message has been edited by BabyEating Dingo (edited 02-05-2015).]
Here's a related question about the work being done on my car...
So he said he had to swap in an 88 cradle to make the 4T60E fit with the 3.4 V6. In the first picture it looks like he did the strut relocation (along with painting my previously beautiful engraved intake manifold ).
Actually I don't think ANY of this stuff is necessary - No 88 cradle, No strut relocation. Why not just use the non-electronic trans ? Maybe he's just jacking the work/cost up (?)
I'd stop this immediately ...
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 02-05-2015).]
Am I missing something, or is this guy pulling my leg?
I am serious as a heart attack... GO GET YOUR CAR.
This guy is in way over his head and doesn't have a clue what he's doing. I know you want a running car and think this will have a happy ending. I want world peace and the end of world hunger, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.
Definitely NOT an 88 cradle. You need to post his name on the Forum and go get your car. The vendor has a hard time determining the difference between excrement and polishing compound. This is a SIMPLE SWAP!
Get your car back and if you can't resolve it take it to small claims court. I had a problem with an upholstery outfit and did that. They showed up with all three of them in suits and refused to negotiate. Judge gave me everything I asked for and it's way cheaper than lawyering up. You've already received a lot of the evidence you will need right here. Good luck.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 02-06-2015).]
The guy isn't answering my calls, but I left a voicemail and text, and I'll be sending an email in a few minutes. I told him he has a week to return my car to me or I will take it (lawyer said I have to give him reasonable time).
For anyone interested, the guy doing the work is at this website:
Nice fancy website... too bad he's been a lousy vendor so far.
Anyone that bases their livelihood and starts a business based strictly on Fieros in 2015 has guts. I'll give him that.
But Customer service and actually completing the job are two critical aspects missing here. Him not answering the phone or returning your messages is code for "you've just been robbed" Give him a week or whatever, then get a flatbad and the Constable and get your car.
I think the fantacy part of his web address is pretty accurate. Mating a 4t60E to a 3.4 pushrod is quite a fantacy. I agree with the others in that you gotta get the car out and hope that he's a descent enough person to refund a portion of your deposit. It might save him some sliver of credability. If you are the least bit mechanically inclined you can finish the conversion yourself. As others mentioned it's the easiest conversion to do and I have videos on the 3.4 conversion process you can use as a guide. I haven't done the 4t60 swap yet but there are plenty of people to help talk you through it. You can try and sell the 4T60E to make a little money back. Even if it's only like $50 or $100.
