Cost wise on average which swap would be cheaper between a 3800 sc series II and a SBC chevy? Im rethinking gaining some more power to my car. It has the 2.5l with the Isuzu 5 speed.

'Some power' is an understatement when you're talking about a 2.5L vs a 3.8SC or a SBC.

The 3.8SC is going to be cheaper. Plain and simple. There is more after market support that will help gain HP without paying an arm and a leg.

Usually a 3.8SC vs V8 forum becomes ugly because people feel the need to choose a side. I see it like this:

3.8SC: Common swap, looks good in the car, reliable engine, plenty of information on the swap.

SBC (or any V8): Sounds MEAN, classic for 'american muscle', produces power in a aggressive way, where as a 3.8SC produces power in a 'sophisticated' way.

The cheapest and most foolproof swap would be to a 2.8L. Their are two for sale on craigslist here, one an 88 for $500 and one is the entire V6 , cradle and suspension and transmission for $450. The 2.8 also sounds very nice

The 3800 is going to be cheaper and easier.

Flame Suit On (let the V6 vs V8 wars continue)....LOL

The 3800 is going to be much faster too. Hahaha

It all depends on what you want, and by that I mean when you turn the key forward do you want to hear that V8 sound growling behind you? or would you rather have a supercharger singing away as you mash the pedal and hang on? Either way your car is going to be a way different ride then with the POS 2.5 in it.. Pick your poison... Best way to decide is to take a ride in both swaps and go from there..

I cheated and went and got one of each
the 3800 SC feels faster and the V8 SBC sounds fast.....but I think the 3800 is faster.
I had not got to drive the V8 much due to complications from sitting/storage prior to me buying. I have not tested them to each other yet.....but the 3800 SC is a total rocket with minor mods like 4 in. intake 3 in. free-flow exahust, cold sparkplugs and a 3.4 SC pulley.

heres a look at what finished installs would look like for comparison ......




I soooo love that whine.......
https://mysp.ac/TVAG

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 04-08-2015).]

quote Originally posted by batousai666: I cheated and went and got one of each the 3800 SC feels faster and the V8 SBC sounds fast.....but I think the 3800 is faster.

Your 3800 is almost certainly faster, and depending on what your SBC actually is, probably makes more power and has a higher rev range. Of course, I don't know what transmissions you have in each one, or what tires you have on them either, and both of those also make quite a difference in how fast they are. Old SBCs can be cheap to get as far as the engine goes, but the kit required to install one is quite expensive, and the cheap ones don't tend to be the ones that make lots of power. The Gen IV SBC (LSx) engines are much more efficient at making power.

The 3800SC doesn't require a ~$2000 install kit, so there's that...

That said, coming from a Duke just about anything will be a performance upgrade. A relatively cheap and easy swap would be a 3400 SFI. You'll still get a performance increase. And you could even keep your Isuzu 5-speed, if you go easy on it.

well V8 has a modified Fiero 3 speed auto trans and the 3800 is the standard 4T65E-HD.
no clue on tires......the 3800 has 16" Centerline rears and the V8 GT has 18" Enkei wheels.

the V8 with a "new 3rd gear" because we broke it on the test drive not knowing it when I first got on it on the test drive.
it was late/middle winter on a rain crap day so I could not lean on it anymore and being very wet I did not get past 40.
its been mild cammed

and I bought from this ad.....


the seller modded the car as a engine builder at a well known shop and fixed the transmission free of charge.
also, in the receipts of all the nice performance minded parts he had a time slip for the US 131 Drag Ways that had a 12.86 14 mile......

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 04-08-2015).]

I think you should SELL your fiero and buy a fiat. After 3 years and only 27 posts neither one will get done!

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089073.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089008.html

[This message has been edited by rcp builders (edited 04-08-2015).]

The biggest reason by far I went with the 3800 is that the Fiero is not a muscle car. I love v8's but in the Fiero a smoother, lighter, zippy v6 feels right. You don't want a torque monster in that little sporty car, it doesn't make sense. However I think it's Skiitime who has a short stroke 283? Engine, that would be sick. Otherwise keep it a sixxer, it makes sense.

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1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

I also like both engines and have at least one of each. However, the 3800 SC engine is likely a better match for a Fiero and possibly less expensive.





Nelson

I would have to 2nd what Nelson just stated

3800-SC with ZZP IC and extras is the best matched and fastest STABLE setup I have seen for the Fiero IMO.

quote Originally posted by IanT720: The biggest reason by far I went with the 3800 is that the Fiero is not a muscle car. I love v8's but in the Fiero a smoother, lighter, zippy v6 feels right. You don't want a torque monster in that little sporty car, it doesn't make sense. However I think it's Skiitime who has a short stroke 283? Engine, that would be sick. Otherwise keep it a sixxer, it makes sense.

Skitime had a 3800SC too, in his car. And there are plenty of 3800 swaps making a lot more torque than old SBC swaps do. JustinBart's car makes over 800 lbs-ft, I think. I can't seem to find the dyno video of that on YouTube right now though.

quote Originally posted by zzzhuh:.. 3.8SC: Common swap, looks good in the car, reliable engine, plenty of information on the swap. SBC (or any V8): Sounds MEAN, classic for 'american muscle', produces power in a aggressive way, where as a 3.8SC produces power in a 'sophisticated' way.

I had both at a time and gotta agree with this. Each motor could be different and will feel different (specially the V8s). For a daily driver I would prefer the 3800sc over an SBC (not talking a newer computer controlled LSx engines). At a car show no one looked at the 3800 but the V8 always gets a crowd. I think a good 3800sc will be cheaper to build than a good SBC. If I would do a V8 at this time I would take the whole drivetrain of any of the newer GM LS FWD models and use it as is but that will be price. Overall you should be happier with any of them.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: At a car show no one looked at the 3800 but the V8 always gets a crowd.

Exactly!! up here in Muscle Car Country MI, I always have get questions I cant answer cuz I bought it this way....that's when they walk away.

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 04-10-2015).]

quote Originally posted by batousai666: Exactly!! up here in Muscle Car Country MI, I always have get questions I cant answer cuz I bought it this way....that's when they walk away.

You are lucky. It is a lot cheaper to buy one conversion already done than to do it yourself.

this is not mine but looks like a good deal it s a 88 with 3.8SC
https://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4974760699.html

I agree that the 3800SC doesn't get much love at carshows. Most people think i threw a supercharger on a 2.8L. If money isn't an issue and you have the know how the LS motor/4t65E would be the way to go in my opinion only because the LS motors will have an aftermarket FOREVER. Or do a Turbo 3800. I plan on doing it to mine sometime and make it resemble the Buick GN setup. HotRodders know what that is.

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[This message has been edited by lildevil (edited 04-12-2015).]

quote Originally posted by lildevil: Or do a Turbo 3800. I plan on doing it to mine sometime and make it resemble the Buick GN setup. HotRodders now what that is.

I never understood why people take a Super Charger off to Turbo Charge it. A SC has power immediately while a turbo takes time to spool. I guess it's a preference of Gas Mileage Vs. Power.

However, I've seen Turbo 3800's do 10's where as a SC seems to do 12's. Anyone want to expand upon this?

quote Originally posted by Burly1: Cost wise on average which swap would be cheaper between a 3800 sc series II and a SBC chevy? Im rethinking gaining some more power to my car. It has the 2.5l with the Isuzu 5 speed.

Cost will depend heavily on your fabrication skills. If you can make mounts and splice wiring harnesses, you can do a 3800 with a used engine cheaper than a SBC with a new crate engine. The upside of the "kit" for the V8 is you get everything up front. Also, are you doing a used engine, or do you want a new one?

Here's an old article for a budget V8 build using Archie's master build kit and a new crate engine. You could save money by sourcing parts yourself, getting some used parts or a used engine. The target price for the build with all new parts and engine was $4000.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...040223-2-011753.html

I know people will say they can do a 3800SC for the change found in a couch, but research it and see how much you can do yourself and what you'll have to pay someone to do, then start adding it up.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Turbos can make more power more efficiently. It takes crankshaft horsepower to drive a SC, but the turbo gets it's power from waste exhaust heat. Parasitic loss on a turbo is much less than a SC.

I do understand that, but a Supercharger is having power instantly.

Let's imagine this:

A 3.8SC Fiero is against a Turbo Fiero.

Off the line a SC is gonna have instant power and thus be able to get up to speed faster. Even tho the Turbo Fiero is going to spool up and increase more boost, I would imagine that the SC would be too far ahead by that point. I could be wrong but that seems like a proper analysis. Considering you have mods to both, a smaller pulley SC is gonna produce a lot of boost. Adding a bigger turbo is just gonna take even longer to spool. I'd love to see an official comparison of the fastest SC Fiero vs the fastest Turbo Fiero, both with 3.8's.

I only make this statement because I own a 2000GTP. After adding a ZZP 3.4 pulley on the car, it FLIES down the road. It also has a cold air intake but I can't imagine a turbo GTP beating me. Sorry to the OP for going off topic a bit.

quote Originally posted by zzzhuh: I do understand that, but a Supercharger is having power instantly. Let's imagine this: A 3.8SC Fiero is against a Turbo Fiero. Off the line a SC is gonna have instant power and thus be able to get up to speed faster. Even tho the Turbo Fiero is going to spool up and increase more boost, I would imagine that the SC would be too far ahead by that point. I could be wrong but that seems like a proper analysis. Considering you have mods to both, a smaller pulley SC is gonna produce a lot of boost. Adding a bigger turbo is just gonna take even longer to spool. I'd love to see an official comparison of the fastest SC Fiero vs the fastest Turbo Fiero, both with 3.8's. I only make this statement because I own a 2000GTP. After adding a ZZP 3.4 pulley on the car, it FLIES down the road. It also has a cold air intake but I can't imagine a turbo GTP beating me. Sorry to the OP for going off topic a bit.

lol

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
10.91@133.1

Hp is all about air mass flow and the 3800's SC runs out of breath/efficiency somewhere in the 400-450ish flywheel hp range. Turbos come in all shapes and sizes and most 3800 turbo builds use turbos that are good for 600+ hp. There isn't an easy/simple supercharger upgrade for the 3800, so once you max it out, most go turbo to go faster.

At a drag strip, most 3800 turbos launch on boost so the main benefit of the SC is mostly nullified and then you have 200+ more hp to get down the track. It really is no contest as long as both cars hook.

I don't think any 3800SC Fiero ever broke out of the 11's, but several 3800 turbos have.
All the quick 3800 turbo cars ran supercharged before and everyone of them is posting quicker times with their turbo setup.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Hp is all about air mass flow and the 3800's SC runs out of breath/efficiency somewhere in the 400-450ish flywheel hp range. Turbos come in all shapes and sizes and most 3800 turbo builds use turbos that are good for 600+ hp. There isn't an easy/simple supercharger upgrade for the 3800, so once you max it out, most go turbo to go faster. At a drag strip, most 3800 turbos launch on boost so the main benefit of the SC is mostly nullified and then you have 200+ more hp to get down the track. It really is no contest as long as both cars hook. I don't think any 3800SC Fiero ever broke out of the 11's, but several 3800 turbos have. All the quick 3800 turbo cars ran supercharged before and everyone of them is posting quicker times with their turbo setup.

Very interesting. Thanks for the infomation, I guess you learn something new everyday

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: All the quick 3800 turbo cars ran supercharged before and everyone of them is posting quicker times with their turbo setup.

Okay then, that settles it... I'm pulling off the supercharger and throwing a turbo on the duke. The OP would do well to follow suit.

Ahh just go with a ABZ Audi 4.2 V8 and turbo charge it it will only cost you about $3500 lol really you should do a 3800 and fallow the crowd of cookie cuter cars or do what you like best

quote Originally posted by zzzhuh: I do understand that, but a Supercharger is having power instantly. Let's imagine this: A 3.8SC Fiero is against a Turbo Fiero. Off the line a SC is gonna have instant power and thus be able to get up to speed faster. Even tho the Turbo Fiero is going to spool up and increase more boost, I would imagine that the SC would be too far ahead by that point. I could be wrong but that seems like a proper analysis. Considering you have mods to both, a smaller pulley SC is gonna produce a lot of boost. Adding a bigger turbo is just gonna take even longer to spool. I'd love to see an official comparison of the fastest SC Fiero vs the fastest Turbo Fiero, both with 3.8's. I only make this statement because I own a 2000GTP. After adding a ZZP 3.4 pulley on the car, it FLIES down the road. It also has a cold air intake but I can't imagine a turbo GTP beating me. Sorry to the OP for going off topic a bit.

seems legit

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3800 Turbo

Best 60' supercharged - 1.54. Launch at 12lbs boost, peak boost 15 lbs.
Best 60' turbo charged(so far) -1.49. Launched at 4lbs boost ramped to 18 in 2.2 seconds.

Same type and size tires on both runs.

Supercharged car is only going to get an advantage on a roll race if turbo car doesn't brake boost. Even without brake boosting I can have full boost in under 1 second from a roll, would pass my old setup very quickly.

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10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

interesting now what happens when you put a blower on that is bigger and flows as much air as the turbo like a M122 eaton that is what i would like to know

Bigger blower takes even more hp off the crank to spin, will make more boost in moving more air(roots don't compress air, boost is restriction to flow after blower) making more heat in the air, it's a continuous battle against physics with a roots blower. Turbo is more efficient at compressing air, and takes nothing off the crank. There are less parasitic losses, and a generally cooler more dense air charge for any given boost level.

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10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 04-13-2015).]

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: Bigger blower takes even more hp off the crank to spin, will make more boost in moving more air(roots don't compress air, boost is restriction to flow after blower) making more heat in the air, it's a continuous battle against physics with a roots blower. Turbo is more efficient at compressing air, and takes nothing off the crank. There are less parasitic losses, and a generally cooler more dense air charge for any given boost level.

Now let's not forget one thing tho. A supercharger is generally easier to maintain and is also more reliable.

Not going to argue there. M90 is pretty bullet proof.

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10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

quote Originally posted by zzzhuh: Now let's not forget one thing tho. A supercharger is generally easier to maintain and is also more reliable.

Uh, no, not really.

But it's ironic that people were worried about this turning into a v8 vs v6 thread, but it's become a blower vs turbo thread.

quote Originally posted by zzzhuh: Now let's not forget one thing tho. A supercharger is generally easier to maintain and is also more reliable.

How do you determine that?

I had a slightly modded '87 Grand National back in the day. The turbo lag was actually a benefit. Instead of just blowing away the tires, the power rolled on gradually. We're talking fractions of a second difference here, but enough to make it easier to launch. I could easily control the launch by how much boost I wanted to build before the green light. Once you have that initial boost, it takes very little time for it to ramp up.

quote Originally posted by dobey: ... it's become a blower vs turbo thread.

They both blow. N/A FTW

If anything I'd say a turbo setup is more reliable because your not making boost all the time. Also yes turbo lag is a thing however if you brake boost and spool up at the line, your gone... You can brake boost from a roll too... Instant power. Plus with modern tuning, lag is a thing of the past anyhow... That being said I love superchager whine... But I hate how the power leans off at the top, a Fiero is small enough I want it to keep pulling. That's why I went turbo, plus dollar per dollar turbo gets you more speed with less money.

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1987 Fiero GTX 3800 Turbo... My Build, ST3 Cam, Lowered, Wheels, and pics enjoy!https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

quote Originally posted by IanT720: That's why I went turbo, plus dollar per dollar turbo gets you more speed with less money.

Actually, turbo's cost more:

http://www.topspeed.com/car...hargers-ar98210.html

"Turbo systems are expensive because of the upgrades required to maintain reliability. Usually an intercooler, boost controller, turbo timer, and a wastegate are needed.
On top of that you usually have to worry about the fuel components and all-important tuning. "

A drawback with Turbo's is you can over boost your engine and end up destroying it a lot easier than a supercharger.

As "LFiero" stated, the M90 is extremely well made. Hell, the 3800 won awards back in it's day for being extremely reliable with a good delivery of power.