Ok, to date I have put $12,917.25 into my Fiero in the past 5 years. (I have a full account of all parts, how much and where and who I purchased them from). It seems hard to believe looking back now, but the detailed spreadsheet does not lie. After all of this, the car is still not drivable. Anyone that has followed my build thread, has seen the nightmares I have gone through over and over and over and over again and again.
The latest, is either a cracked head, or a blown head gasket. (Water in rear left 2 cylinders) I am NOT putting another cent into this engine. I am gonna byte the bullet and put a 380SC in it. Hopefully this will make the car a semi "reliable" vehicle
Just about EVERYTHING else on the car is brand new. 100% of the suspension, (bearings, brakes, calipers, shocks, bushings, bearings, addition of heavier front sway bar, and addition of a rear sway bar, new wheels, rotors, tires, pads). Complete new cooling system (all new hoses, metal impeller water pump, all clamps, radiator, heater core, and heater core lines) New interior (Mr. Mike Seats, carpet, custom embroidered floor mats, new gauge cluster with Speed hut overlays, headliner, Dash and Fiero Store dash cap, Fiero Store Speaker door panels custom leather covered, Russ88TTops leather covered arm rests, New Bluetooth stereo, 1,000 watt amp & a 10" subwoofer), all LED lighting (overhead, floor, 3rd brake light, all dash lights) All new Exterior ($3,500 Paint job, full side molding kit from the Fiero Store, I built custom LED strips for the side markers, Fiero Fiberglass 355i front and Series II side scoops, New Fiero Store GT Tail lights, all new sunroof tracks and gaskets and sunroof hardware, Danyel's 60mm quad headlight conversion buckets.
The car really does look amazing, it just will not make it to the end of the driveway, without a good push at least!
I was laid off from a pretty good paying job, and now am just not making near as much, so I am on a tight budget. (like who isn't these days!) So, where is the best place to source a decent 3800SC from? I am no mechanic, and would not begin to know how to go to the scrap yard and pull one out unfortunately. I have done quite a bit of research, and know most of what I need from reading pother built threads and such. The wiring harness is what scares me the very most about doing this swap.
When I pull this stock 2.8 engine, I will offer up the new stuff off of it for either really, really cheap, or some of the stuff for free, just pay postage. The new parts on the engine have less that 500 miles on them. This includes a handful of ICM's, new Distributor cap, rotor, Distributor and pickup coil, new custom built blue plug wires, new metal impeller water pump, new A/C compressor, new TPS, new ICM wiring harnesses, new stock thermostat, new oil pressure sensor, MSD Streetfire Coil..... Those "new" parts, plus the rest of the stuff on the engine will be up for grabs.
If you have extra 3800 parts, please let me know! I am not looking for everything for free by any means, but steep discounts are nice at times I am setting a goal to have the engine in the car to take to Daytona this year. This gives me 4 months to source everything, and then get it installed and up and running I hope.
Also, any tips are certainly welcome! The easiest conversion, from what I have read, is the Series II from my understanding, but a Series III is slightly improved, and has a bit more horse power. At the same time, it is drive by wire, and needs a new throttle body off of a Cadillac is it? I would also like to get the the ... is is the 4T60.... not sure, but the Overdrive transmission to mount up to it. (Not the E (electronic) version of course)
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-01-2015).]
Got my 3800 sc engine and tranny from morad. Sinister did my computer. Injection technology for the wiring harness. All the mounts, brackets, and axles from west coast fiero. Do not i repeat do not use phonedawgz aka red devil river aka timm bacher for your harness and computer. The man stole both of my harnesses, computer, and $200. West coast also does harnesses and the computer which i didnt know at the time. If i had i would have used them for everything.
There are many good vendors on this forum who supply pre-made 3800SC swap parts. FieroRog, IwannaIRM, PurpleReign, West Coast Fiero, Phil Dull/Injection Technology, Sinister Performance and many others. The turn key plug and play approach does increase the price of a swap by about $2,000 but it makes it quite easy. Then you will need a higher capacity fuel pump, new ignition wires, hoses, fuel lines, a custom water outlet, alt belt, new axles (auto) and a custom exhaust system.
Note: At the present time two previous harness sources are not delivering : FieroFlyer and Phonedawgz. I will let other forum members comment on them. One comment is already above.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-10-2015).]
Of all swaps (except a 2.8 replacement) I think this is the easiest. Still not for anyone not mechanically inclined. You can buy pre-made all the key items (mounts, harness, axles, programmed ECM) and that is what I highly recommend you to do for a smooth swap. After all put in place then the final big item will be the exhaust. For that again you can try a pre-made one to see if it fits your tolerances or have a muffler shop do a basic T unit. A good mandrel bent is better but will cost more. On the other hand you will have smaller tasks requiring some fabrication/build such as intake and shift mechanism. Bottom line no swap is easy no mater what anyone here tells you. I have all the tools in the world and still struggled with something at one time or another and you will have those moments when you question your decision. Make a plan, read all threads and go slowly. Good luck.
Thanks for all the vendor info and warnings, I had read about the lost wiring harnesses, and was sorry to see that happen to someone.
Are the Series I, and series II exhaust manifolds interchangeable?
The ports were changed on the series II/III engines so even if the series I manifolds fit it probably would not be the best idea to use them. If you buy a good used 3800 it will come with the proper manifolds. For more flow you can use the ZZ Performance Powerlog Manifold set or just replace the one on the front that is the restrictive one.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by JohnWPB: Are the Series I, and series II exhaust manifolds interchangeable?
No. The spacing is different. The Series II and Series III have the exhaust ports equally spaced. The Series 1 engines do not. Series 1 (Notice the 2 spark plugs between the right most primaries):
Series II and III (Notice the equal spacing and only 1 spark plug between the primaries):
Do not use the harness in your current fiero as a donor for the 3800 harness. If you do, you may carry over some of its gremlins to the new engine swap.
Thanks for the info. The reason I asked, is I have a possible opportunity to pick up a series I that was pulled from a Fiero V8 conversion, that would come with the full exhaust system.
I do not understand entirely, but this particular setup used a Mega-Squirt Computer, and as I understand it, a stand alone system. I was told that it does not attach to the rest of the wiring harness. Again, I do not fully understand the whole thing. I will be asking more questions, and trying to understand the setup better. But as it sounds, it is not as complete as a swap with a converted wiring harness. Not sure how any of the gauges, A/C, cruise control ect would work.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 10-04-2015).]
I have the correct oil filter adapter if you need it. I don't plan on using it any time soon!
Well there is a start Drop me a PM and let me know what you want for it, Thanks!
Also, please post any questions or parts that you would want from my old 2.8 right here in the thread. I have been getting TONS of PM's, some for the same items. Posting in the thread can let others see what has been offered / asked for. thanks!
Do you want to use your trunk? Have some one do an exhaust for you if you want to use your trunk. I have a full trunk and use it! My car is a daily driver. PO did a home made exhaust and it is just to close to the trunk. Used some thermo mats. Do you want your alternator high or low? Where do you want your coil packs? PO did mine on the firewall, which requires make your own or custom made wires. Automatic trans? Is your Fiero manual or auto? If manual and you are going to use the 4T65EHD plan on installing a good trans oil cooler, figure out were you want it and the cost to run lines if up front mount or space and brackets to mount it in the rear. Most will tell you not to put in rear. My car came with a basic Hayden 4 tube cooler mounted in the rear. I replace it with a Derale dual fan cooler. Having owned one for several years I am learning a lot about this configuration. I have found this engine produces A LOT OF HEAT. Keep that in mind. Oh if you don't know you must use premium fuel. I remember when this engine was offered in the Bonneville, I was selling Pontiac's. I made it a point to tell customers to use premium fuel. Do you have to get checked for emissions? Do you want to use EGR or not? You will want to upgrade the fuel pump. Lots to think about. PO of my car left the engine stock and I am happy with that seeing this car is a daily driver. Lot of stuff to research before you do it. From what I have read here on the forum I would avoid series I.
[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 10-05-2015).]
I have gotten a lot more PM's in the past few hours..... wow....
Anyhow, after reading this thread, and reading more and more, I have determined I am just not qualified to do this myself. I will source the donor motor, and what parts I can, and send the car out to be swapped.
After messaging back and forth with Joe (olejoedad) he provided me with a reasonable price to get the job done, turn key. The problem is distance, I can add almost another $1,000 just to get the car to him. I have seen his work, and it is TOP NOTCH! I just would like to find something closer if at all possible.
All this said, I wish I could change the thread title to: "Wanted: Reputable shop in South Florida to do a 3800 swap"
Originally posted by JohnWPB: Also, any tips are certainly welcome! The easiest conversion, from what I have read, is the Series II from my understanding, but a Series III is slightly improved, and has a bit more horse power. At the same time, it is drive by wire, and needs a new throttle body off of a Cadillac is it? I would also like to get the the ... is is the 4T60.... not sure, but the Overdrive transmission to mount up to it. (Not the E (electronic) version of course)
If you want an auto with the 3800, I'd recommend sticking with the electronic version of the trans that comes mated to the engine originally. The 3800 PCM controls both the engine and trans. If you can get a complete cradle drop from a car with the 3800, it'll just make everything easier, and make it cheaper for you when whoever you take it to does the work, if they don't have to source the trans, harness, etc…
The Series III is a better engine, but it's also possible to use the Series II ECM to control it, and a non-DBW throttle body. It's also possible to install the newer supercharger on the Series II L67 engine. Both of those add more time/expense to the swap though. If you really want the Seires III, don't let the DBW discourage you from getting it. There are plenty of engine swaps in Fieros at this point, using DBW engines. Just get a whole dropout with engine, trans, harness, ECM, and gas pedal, and let whomever you end up taking your car to deal with the details of mounting it in the car, disabling VATS, and making it run. I just hope you have better luck this time, than you did with the painting.
@JohnWPB sometimes its better to pay more and not worry about the how to do it correctly... a key in hand always pays off in the long run... I had my 383 done done key in hand.... now I resold it for 200$ more that I paid to get it done and installed... when problems arose the builder fixed it .....
I have gotten a lot more PM's in the past few hours..... wow....
Anyhow, after reading this thread, and reading more and more, I have determined I am just not qualified to do this myself. I will source the donor motor, and what parts I can, and send the car out to be swapped.
After messaging back and forth with Joe (olejoedad) he provided me with a reasonable price to get the job done, turn key. The problem is distance, I can add almost another $1,000 just to get the car to him. I have seen his work, and it is TOP NOTCH! I just would like to find something closer if at all possible.
All this said, I wish I could change the thread title to: "Wanted: Reputable shop in South Florida to do a 3800 swap"
John,
Stick Pony (PFF) is still in FL IIRC and he has done several engine swaps. You may want to contact him and see if he is interested in the swap.
Just out of curiosity which cars came with a 3800 SC III .... thx Danyel
2004-2005 Grand Prix GT, or 2006+ Grand Prix GTP had the supercharged L32 option for Series III. For the N/A L26 2004+ Grand Prix, and 2005+ Buick LaCrosse and Lucerne had it.
2004-2005 Grand Prix GT, or 2006+ Grand Prix GTP had the supercharged L32 option for Series III. For the N/A L26 2004+ Grand Prix, and 2005+ Buick LaCrosse and Lucerne had it.
Originally posted by hnthomps: Stick Pony (PFF) is still in FL IIRC and he has done several engine swaps. You may want to contact him and see if he is interested in the swap.
Nelson
I PM'd "StickPony" (No space) and have been waiting for a reply. He never set up an email address on the forum, so hope he stil checks PM's. Anyone else know how to get a hold of him, or his real name?
Ok, I have done a lot more reading and researching......
I looks like I am going to go with a 3800 SC from a 1997~2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP.
Normally from what I have read, you need a 3800 wiring harness as well as a Fiero harness to manufacture a new wiring harness. This is always what I have heard and read about. The main reason for this being, when the engine is spun around to go into the Fiero, the wiring harness is not long enough to reach the interior of the car. The other option would be to mount the PCM where it would reach, in the trunk. This is a pretty lousy choice, thus why everyone creates a custom wiring harness.
Well, I talked to Stuart (DIY Stu) on the phone the other night for an hour or so. He was explaining that the GTP 3800SC has the PCM mounted behind the passenger headlight (weatherproof). When the engine is spun around to go into the Fiero, this puts the PCM on the drivers side of the Fiero, and can be mounted behind my Fiero Fiberglass Series II side scoop. This will help to keep it cool as a bonus. This way I do not have to rewire any plugs, and there are just a handful of wires that will tie into the existing harness in the arm rest. This includes, ignition power, cruise, instrumentation, and A/C. I am sure a couple that I am forgetting / missing, but that's pretty much the jest of it from what I understand thus far.
What I do not know, as of yet is where / how the OBDII port will route into the Fiero. The removal of it from the donor car would be pretty tough as well I would think.....
Now, are there certain years that are better that others for the GTP? Of course I will try to find the lowest miles possible, best condition engine ect ect. That aside, are there any major differences in the GTP years as far as oil filter location/angle, starter location/relocating ect?
Soon as I determine what years are the best, I will immediately be on the hunt to buy one in the coming weeks.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-01-2015).]
I PM'd "StickPony" (No space) and have been waiting for a reply. He never set up an email address on the forum, so hope he stil checks PM's. Anyone else know how to get a hold of him, or his real name?
FYI, the last time I spoke with Aaron (stickpony) he had relocated to Georgia. Last I spoke with him was april. he uses gmail, stickpony@
[This message has been edited by gen2muchwork (edited 11-02-2015).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: What I do not know, as of yet is where / how the OBDII port will route into the Fiero. The removal of it from the donor car would be pretty tough as well I would think.....
You can mount it in the center console, in the exact same location as the original ALDL port. If you're cutting the Fiero harness at the firewall to retain the connector, you could de-pin the existing ALDL connector, and re-pin the ends for the OBD-II connector, and then rewire on the other side of the firewall to match up the wiring correctly. If you're paying someone to do the swap, they should already know how to do this, and it's not something you need to worry about.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 12-01-2015).]
Ok, I May have found an engine. It's a 2003 Series II from a GTP. It has just under 100,000 miles on it. A little higher than I wanted, but not a deal breaker, as my nephew has 238,000 on his 08 Impala 3800 SC and it is running STRONG. Seems these engines can go pretty strong into the 200 thousand if maintained.
It has a manual transmission buttoned up to it, and a new clutch (under 1,000 miles) from what I am told).
It is a complete package, in a Fiero presently. I will be able to test drive it and hear it running and check it out thoroughly.
The down side is, as mentioned, that it has a manual transmission, and I want automatic. I LOVE sticks, dont get me wrong, just not as a daily driver here in South Florida traffic. What all is entailed on putting something like a 4t65e transmission onto it? Is that the correct one even, I am looking for the one with overdrive. I think the Fiero auto on my 2.8 is supposed to work, as I said I THINK, but I want the overdrive, and not be doing 5,000 RPM at 75 MPH on the highway LOL. I know the computer will not work, does it need reprogrammed, a new prom or a new computer entirely? Are there any other crazy things to worry about swapping out the manual for an auto onto the engine?
Again, this is a pretty much new to me, but this seems too good to pass up at the moment. FAR better than trying to find an engine, build a wiring harness, computer, having to purchase all the motor mounts, adapt the alternator / starter location, create an exhaust system.... ect.... all of this has been done already.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: Again, this is a pretty much new to me, but this seems too good to pass up at the moment. FAR better than trying to find an engine, build a wiring harness, computer, having to purchase all the motor mounts, adapt the alternator / starter location, create an exhaust system.... ect.... all of this has been done already.
If you really must have an auto, and don't want the manual, I'd pass on this. It might be a great buy, if you want a manual, since it's already in a Fiero, and all the work is pretty much done.
You're still going to have to try to find a trans (4t65e-HD is correct), and you'd still need to build a wiring harness (auto and manual aren't the same), have to deal with reprogramming the computer, and if you want different accessories (such as a/c if the car it's currently in doesn't have it, for example, but you must have it), then you might also need to deal with adapting the alternator location. You'll have to deal with mounts too, since the auto and manual transmissions don't mount up the same to the cradle. The starter is already in the right place from the factory on all FWD 3800s, so no need to worry about that.
The best thing for you to find, would be a donor car, or a Fiero swap that is already done with the auto. So my suggestion would be to pass, if you must have an auto trans.
Thanks for the info... Wow..... really disappointing to hear all this actually. I DID find a donor car, just that it happens to have a manual transmission. I had no idea that the mounts can't be used, nor the wiring harness if I switch it to an auto. Wow.....
I was really psyched that I had found what I thought was a decent solution. Now I am stumped, and not sure quite what to do from here.
There are plenty of people in Florida with 3800 swaps. I'm not sure how many are out near you though, versus in Central Florida. If you can meet up with some of them, particularly those that have done the work themselves, and chat with them, I'd suggest doing so. Nothing wrong with being patient and doing the research.
Yeah, the 4t65e-HD that comes with the 3800 is electronically controlled, and wired into the PCM. Manual cars won't need the extra wiring for the trans. Also, the OEM Fiero wiring is slightly different in a couple spots, between the auto and manual cars. The cradles also have different mounts on them.
It'll take a lot of work to get a swap done, and you'll learn a lot on the way. But don't worry, you'll get there.
You can mount it in the center console, in the exact same location as the original ALDL port. If you're cutting the Fiero harness at the firewall to retain the connector, you could de-pin the existing ALDL connector, and re-pin the ends for the OBD-II connector, and then rewire on the other side of the firewall to match up the wiring correctly. If you're paying someone to do the swap, they should already know how to do this, and it's not something you need to worry about.
PO mounted the computer in the center console on my car. The sound deading was removed to help keep it cool. Seems to be working ok. I drive my car daily! Yes all year even though I live in Michigan.
I PM'd him this morning, as he did no make his email address public on PFF. I gave him my phone number and email address, and have not heard from as of yet.. I definitely want to talk this over and see if we can come to an agreement.
going back to earlier comments here's a pretty simple exhaust the PO put in the car I have. and left me with a full trunk. not too loud, not too soft.
That looks like a spin tech. You say it isn't real loud? Is it deafening at expressway speeds. Around 2000 RPM? Does your trunk get real hot? Is it mounted using factory exhaust hangers? Sorry for all the questions. Mine is a flowmaster with full trunk and the trunk gets hot as PO's installation put the muffler next to the trunk. Around 2000 RPM traveling on the interstate it is deafening. Cant hear the radio so I don't turn it on. Neighbor has made a comment about the loudness. LOL Next time a neighbor says anything I will tell them I except donations for a new exhaust system. LOL
it is a spintek. at cruising speeds it's very pleasant but is medium loud accelerating. not deafening at all. I have heard flowmasters are loud. one of the tips in the picture fell off so I replaced them with corvette tips. I think those are a little louder than the hot tips. it has gotten louder lately because the PO that put this together did not use hangers so it's loose where the stock header connects to the pipe facing rear. next year I'll get that welded and have them put on hangers so it doesn't shake so much. I do wonder if the inside of the spintek is burning out a little too. seems when I'm standing next to it and open up the throttle it's louder than it was a year ago. I don't think the trunk gets too hot, but obviously it's pretty warm. I would do this set up again.
it is a spintek. at cruising speeds it's very pleasant but is medium loud accelerating. not deafening at all. I have heard flowmasters are loud. one of the tips in the picture fell off so I replaced them with corvette tips. I think those are a little louder than the hot tips. it has gotten louder lately because the PO that put this together did not use hangers so it's loose where the stock header connects to the pipe facing rear. next year I'll get that welded and have them put on hangers so it doesn't shake so much. I do wonder if the inside of the spintek is burning out a little too. seems when I'm standing next to it and open up the throttle it's louder than it was a year ago. I don't think the trunk gets too hot, but obviously it's pretty warm. I would do this set up again.
I have the corvette tips. I may have to go with a spintech to get it quieter.
Drop me a PM and let me know what you want for it, Thanks!
