quote posted by the ogre: [quote]Worse, Google can/will give more reasons when everyone helps to clean up "Adult Content." Some have guessed correctly many threads are "Full" of "Hate Speech."

I too suspect, that from Google's point of view, that it is not just the single instance of the 2 specific threads mentioned in their notice. Hate speech, 'bullying', jpegs with the f-bomb prominently displayed, videos from youtube with content few here would want their parents or children to know they view, instructions on how to circumvent copyright laws..it's a pretty long list of things they are probably looking for..and finding.
Just throwing a NSFW tag up in the title is not going to even begin to pass muster with them.

I wonder if this is why I can't find my thread of my MRI.

I don't visit often but I'd be willing to pay to keep things as they are. T O/T is a part of PFF and getting rid of it is like cutting off one of your arms. Can I say that or does that violate The Decision?

The frequency that people circumvent the sensor system might have risen a few flags. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/043583.html

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by Cheever3000: Another vote here for wiping T/OT and starting over. The worst thing about that for me is the computer/phone and other tech advice I find here, but even that is obsolete after about 6 months or certainly after a year. I also like the prepper/survivalist/homesteading threads, but... Maybe you could have us submit which T/OT threads we want to be saved, and nuke the rest.

I wholeheartedly agree. I recommend completely deleting the Trash Can. Anything that would go there should just be deleted going forward.
Also wipe T/OT completely and start over. I don't think it should go away because then the OT content would just bleed over into Chat. It does at least give you some segmenting. I would stop archiving T/OT and when a thread would normally archive, it just rolls off into oblivion.

You might also consider archiving the site and wiping the entire site and starting over. Then if there are valuable tech threads, etc. that you want to include, add those back in individually. The tech and construction zone would be a terrible loss to the Fiero community.

I know you've always been against moderators, but it may be time. Meanwhile we must all consider ourselves moderators and immediately let you know of any inappropriate content. I would suggest a PM to Cliff with a direct link to the offending post and title the PM "INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT" so it's easier for Cliff to find them and go straight to them. (don't link to the thread - link to the individual post using the "chain link" icon next to the quote link, like this: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/096651-3.html#p82 )

Cliff if there's anything else we can do, just let us know.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-23-2016).]

I'm also for deleting o/t; just don't delete the forum if possible. I also have a fiero that is still on the road thanks to all the information and ideas on this site. There is no place in the world that I can think of like this forum. This truly is the place to go for all things Fiero! I am all for an annual subscription or whatever you come up with.

I've been here since 2001ish - a little before, just not a member. Over the past year or two the time spent on the forum has decreased drastically. Primarily because of all the vitriol in T/OT... so it is with no hesitation that I say nuke T/OT and start it over. Or better yet, get rid of it all together.

My Fiero will always be my toy, and coming here really keeps the hobby fresh. I'd hate to see the forum's demise because of photos, or post that violate google's terms of agreement for ads.

Wipe O/T.....trash it. If you decide to do so, bring it back.

But there's nothing here that is so earth shattering it cannot be lost. In recent years, it's become more advesarial than anything else anyway.

Kill it. That's my vote.

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-23-2016).]

For the record, I don't like removing all TOT either.
Example: We do have PC and other help threads that help many w/o going to dig around other sites.

Problem is Cliff let allot of threads alone and while Rating System(s) can ban Trolls but doesn't help to clean up Threads.
Most data that got people banned And most "Bad Threads" w/o banning anyone are still on PFF.

All "Political"/"Religion" threads are not bad but Many will trip current "Hate Speech" rules for Google and likely even violate Laws in EU countries. Removing both will reduce threads to clean. If not in the active thread(s) at least in the archive(s). (Saying "EU laws don't matter to me" isn't true... Example: Germany doesn't go after U.S. users posting "Hate Speech" etc but can ban or arrest people from entering the country. US isn't only place w/ "no fly"/"no visit" lists.)

Some threads likely violate "copyright" rules for google too. Several have tried to stop/warn people from posting threads but have no power... Examples:
Copy/Paste entire News and other articles is a "bad thing" but some people do that even after warnings. Search by some users names can find many.
Selling iffy "mods" to get "free" videos, games, etc, can trip Anti-Pirating bots.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: What exactly is a "reset"? If that means deleting everything that was ever posted in O/T... Hell no! Many of us have shared important personal events of our lives in O/T... births, deaths, relationships, pets, jobs, misfortunes, holidays, music, photographs, laughter, sorrow, etc. I've often searched through the archives to find posts (my own as well as other member's) from years ago. Yes, a lot of useless political nonsense has been posted (and I despise it), but there's no need (hopefully) to throw out the baby with the bath water. It would be an absolute shame to lose over 16 years worth of irreplaceable PFF member history.

It would be a shame but losing the whole site is worse. Cliff was pretty clear that the whole site is at risk. Those personal experience that we share will still exist. We can build it back up quickly. I don't want OT gone but I accept that the existing OT content may have to be sacrificed to save the overall site.

Cliff: Administer a reasonable annual subscription fee, enough to cover your costs. I'm quite sure we "Fieroites" can afford this minimal funding. The knowledge and information provided by your Forum saves us much more than the sure to be incurred hired mechanical technician fees.

quote You might also consider archiving the site and wiping the entire site and starting over. Then if there are valuable tech threads, etc. that you want to include, add those back in individually. The tech and construction zone would be a terrible loss to the Fiero community.

Or place the entire current forum in a "members only section", like an archive or Ogres Cave, without the ads. Continue forward under the new Google-friendly rules.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by RPYRAZOO: Cliff: Administer a reasonable annual subscription fee, enough to cover your costs. I'm quite sure we "Fieroites" can afford this minimal funding. The knowledge and information provided by your Forum saves us much more than the sure to be incurred hired mechanical technician fees.

You and others think wrong.
Many can't spend money.
Many won't because they only use PFF only to fix current problem and go away. PFF is just a free Fiero Help Desk to them.
Many to Most readers are lurkers that get ads served to them but never joined. Take # of active users then Multiply that many times over and you get an idea why stopping ads is very bad.

This thread now over 1500 views vs. 90+ replies. Many readers are Lurkers.
Look at # of views for Kathryn's Fiero thread. Nearly a Million views = money to Cliff. A few have register just to post in that thread and left.

Cliff, whatever you need please don't be afraid to ask. I love this site and if you need to do a yearly membership I'm in. Or if you need a donation to help scrub the site. The info on this site and the members here are priceless.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Just throwing a NSFW tag up in the title is not going to even begin to pass muster with them.

Nope.

I've read a lot of posts and have seen a lot of suggestions. A lot of you suggest to completely wipe TO/T and the Trash Can. I agree that I should wipe the Trash Can since it has no added value to the forum whatsoever. It doesn't generate any traffic either. But wiping TO/T is a totally different story. Mind you, most of the threads in TO/T are in compliance with Google's policies. Some are on the edge and some are a bit over, but I don't think those are the problem. So wiping TO/T is like burning down your house to get rid of a mouse.

Also, TO/T gets by far the most traffic on the entire forum and is therefor the biggest source of ad income for me. So getting rid of TO/T means loosing most ad revenue.

People also suggest setting up some sort of subscription fee. Either in the form of a fixed (yearly or monthly) fee, or through voluntary donations. The thing is, these things always start out great only to die out quickly. Ad revenue is a pretty stable cash flow and it keeps the forum free for everyone. In fact, like I said before, not only does it pay for the forum, it also puts some money on the bank. Not a lot, but nowadays I need every source of income to keep my head above water.

I think the solutions is a multi-part one. First we need to seek out the offending threads. And I don't mean every single thread that might be in violation with Google's policies, but the most obvious ones. Perhaps that will be enough to satisfy Google.

In their email, they were only talking about one specific violation:

quote Excerpt from Google's email: Violation explanation Google considers pedophilia to be any content (images, texts, videos, etc.) or behavior that depicts, encourages, or promotes sexual attraction by adults toward minors (i.e., under 18). This includes, but is not limited to: collections of child or baby photos that may contain sexual undertones (model sites) underaged themed sexual jokes (ie jailbait or pedobear content) "fantasy" or "role play" scenarios that depict pedophilia

As an example, they gave me a single link to a thread on PFF. It was the earlier mentioned "Pedoph****" thread. When I deleted that thread and appealed their decision, they declined and gave me another single link to a page in another thread (the funny pictures thread) . The problem there was an animated GIF of a young boy looking at an adult woman and the animation suggested that he was pleasuring himself.

So first and foremost, we need to find such posts for me to delete.

The second step is that I need to put something in place that people can report posts to me.

Hopefully that will be enough for Google to allow ads on PFF again. And as much as you may not like ads, they keep PFF free for all.

Oddly, I thought the system we have works. I've reported 2 threads, and you removed them. That was a year or so ago. I don't remember what the issue was, but not this particular one.

I agree with the auto-expiry of threads in T/OT, and with wiping what's currently there. If there's a T/OT section, get rid of it. Trash is like the people who use Outlook to file emails they want to keep in Deleted Items. Get rid of Trash.

Just my $.02

Oh. Ads aren't on the private message pages, too, are they?

[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: So wiping TO/T is like burning down your house to get rid of a mouse.

Cliff, I'm so glad you feel that way. I hate to see history being deleted... especially if it ends up not serving any higher purpose by doing so.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: ... wiping TO/T is a totally different story ... wiping TO/T is like burning down your house to get rid of a mouse.

Cliff: A less-drastic alternative might be to remove ... or at least quarantine ... any thread in TO/T or its archive that has the word "NSFW" in the title. I count about 150 total threads. If the originator of the thread considers the topic "not safe," it seems highly likely that the content may indeed be objectionable. A more draconian measure would be to target threads with "NSFW" anywhere in the thread.

This is just a suggestion. Please PM me if there's some other way I can help.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Cliff, The following archived thread would probably fit the criteria for total deletion. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-6-067934.html

That was the first thread that came to my mind and I posted about it in the OT version of this thread here. I hadn't found it yet but when I did I found it had been deleted. Considering it's deletion and Cliffs comment above, that was probably the initial thread Google complained about.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by TK: https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/1348688 I think this is their content rules. Not a chance of OT meeting the standard.

Yup, G has become the speech and thought police. Do as they say, think and speak the way they want you to, or else. Sooner or later they could decide that modifying a Fiero to make more power (or even just keep it repaired and running in stock form) is bad for the planet and that'll get the Tech section on the blacklist as well.

My recommendation would be to come up with another way of generating revenue. Because OT is never going to be able to adhere to all those "rules". And even if you can make OT "clean enough" for G, their rules will eventually be amended that will find something else posted on this site that they don't agree with on a political level - and we'll be right back here again sometime in the future.

Sorry to hear the bad news, Cliff. But I'm not surprised they did this to you. You're going to have to make a choice about whether or not you are going to let a big corporation push you around. I don't think you should.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: Please Don't confuse my Cave with PFF... PFF has Links to it but That is all and I get nothing from PFF ads. At the time I started, Cliff was very against any FAQ because many other BBS/Forums tell users to read the FAQ first. Odd how my Cave has become a de facto FAQ for PFF. (Google "see my cave" site:www.fiero.nl returns about 3,080 results, "Ogre cave" site:www.fiero.nl returns about 19,500 results, then add allot of links in others thread w/o exact words.) See Very Short History of The Ogre's Fiero Cave

Your Ogres Cave is like a permanent repository of Fiero knowledge. I have used it many times as such (and I thank you). If the current forum were to be wiped, that knowledge base would be lost. That was the context of my suggestion, that this forum would hopefully be preserved for the information contained.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: I've read a lot of posts and have seen a lot of suggestions...

So there was nothing wrong at the link that I sent you?
I didn't have a problem with the content, but I figured that if Google wanted to nit-pick, they might nit-pick that one.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-23-2016).]

I went to do a google image search (site:fiero.nl gif)
There are a lot of pictures (gifs) that show up in the results
that would not be considered g-rated. Matter of fact some of them
would not be allowed to be display in public view of children w/o a cover.....


I'm sure everyone is using google search option to find items
to remove. I am curious as to how long content cached by
google remains in their system after it has been deleted/removed
from the site.

Has there been any mention of how deep the cleanup has gone so far.

It is a shame that Google can narrow in so tightly on a forum, that is 99% in compliance. They must realize it is virtually impossible to police 100% of an online community. I PM'd a link or two to Cliff to check out. I also PayPal'd a donation, to help cover the interruption (Temporary I hope) of the ad revenue. It would be very nice if others, if you have the ability, to do the same.

Cliff,
I don't know if I am one of the guilty ones or not, but probibly.
If it's easy for you (like just typing in "Boondawg>Delete"), just delete everything I ever posted.
I don't mind, and I'm sure there's nothing there of value to the forum, anyway.

It would be an easy solution if i'm one of the offenders.

Thanx.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If it's easy for you (like just typing in "Boondawg>Delete"), just delete everything I ever posted. I don't mind, and I'm sure there's nothing there of value to the forum, anyway.

Boonie, you're one of the few reasons I stuck it out in O/T as long as I did (...but even you weren't enough to keep me there any longer). I'd hate to see your often thought-provoking posts/threads vanish into the ether.

Much of the "Google" offensive content was posted in a context that may have been misinterpreted. People here likely didn't see it as offensive, more often than not just humorous (such as the stuff in the "Funny Pics" thread). I hope this gets resolved quickly so Google can move on and Cliff gets his Ads back. I stay clear of T/OT now because I don't need to fight with people with polar views, but I would hate to see it dismantled in any way. (admittedly I had an T/OT addiction for a while....hello my name is Neil and I am a T/OTacholic....but I've been sober for more than 12 months.)

Crap! This sucks!!! I'll try to help in any way that I can.

Stupid question probably, but has Google said they're willing to help provide you with any and all links that they find offensive?

Maybe Google can tell you ALL of the offending threads so you can delete them. In parallel is there any appeal we can make to google? At least something that doesn't make it worse.

But do wonder if we can ever meet their their standards.

But it does, get some moderators.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I totally think you should just completely wipe all the previous posts in O/T starting from yesterday or today or whatever. No one here is going to be bothered by it... I can assure you.

Todd, from what vantage point are you able to make that proclamation? You've run an all-inclusive poll that I've somehow missed?

I've already stated I'd be very much against everything being wiped out of O/T. I suspect I'm not the only one.

But the political threads can all be "nuked" if you'd like... which would be ironic justice as I've seen that specific term tossed around in there plenty of times.

Cliff,
It has been brought to my attention that my participation in this https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/114501-2.html#p42 thread might be in "violation".
If you agree, please delete it.

Personally, I think of it as artistic.

P.S. John Wayne Gacy thought he was an "artist", too.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I am SO against censorship & burning books, but if it makes everything alright for everyone else, I'm more than happy to martyr anything I have produced.

Boonie, I don't know why some people are continuing to suggest that the slate be wiped clean in O/T when Cliff himself has stated that this isn't what is required. I can only conclude that certain members have awfully guilty consciences!

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock Here: A lot of you suggest to completely wipe TO/T and the Trash Can. I agree that I should wipe the Trash Can since it has no added value to the forum whatsoever. It doesn't generate any traffic either. But wiping TO/T is a totally different story. Mind you, most of the threads in TO/T are in compliance with Google's policies. Some are on the edge and some are a bit over, but I don't think those are the problem. So wiping TO/T is like burning down your house to get rid of a mouse.

to bad there isn't another ad program running while all this activity
is going on. There is probably more activity going on this weekend
than most others. Ironically, google is missing out on the impressions
that would have been generated by everyone's (multiple) activities as
we search through just about the entire PFF content.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Boonie, I don't know why some people are continuing to suggest that the slate be wiped clean in O/T when Cliff himself has stated that this isn't what is required. I can only conclude that certain members have awfully guilty consciences! [QUOTE]Originally posted by Cliff Pennock Here: A lot of you suggest to completely wipe TO/T and the Trash Can. I agree that I should wipe the Trash Can since it has no added value to the forum whatsoever. It doesn't generate any traffic either. But wiping TO/T is a totally different story. Mind you, most of the threads in TO/T are in compliance with Google's policies. Some are on the edge and some are a bit over, but I don't think those are the problem. So wiping TO/T is like burning down your house to get rid of a mouse.

Unless they keep piecemealing out the violations. Then a wipe makes sense ONLY after they offer him a second chance AND he decides it makes financial sense. We are somewhere between him cleaning to their satisfaction and dust.

But if it makes people feel any better, we made a site Google wants no part of. Now that's good for who?

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-23-2016).]

Well, on my computer anyway, while using Chrome OS, and doing a PFF search for a specific thread title, completely within PFF, I currently see goggle ads on the search results page.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: So wiping TO/T is like burning down your house to get rid of a mouse..

I agree. And like I said earlier, who is to say G won't amend their rules again in the future and find something wrong with something still on your forum that you didn't wipe?

On the other hand, O/T isn't anywhere as valuable to the community as the other sections. So I don't personally think it would be any big loss if O/T got nuked.

But, having said that, if this was my forum, I wouldn't let a big search engine company with questionable political motives push me around, censor free speech, or dictate terms to me about how I was going to run my site. But that's just me.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 04-23-2016).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I agree. And like I said earlier, who is to say G won't amend their rules again in the future and find something wrong with something still on your forum that you didn't wipe? On the other hand, O/T isn't anywhere as valuable to the community as the other sections. So I don't personally think it would be any big loss if O/T got nuked. But, having said that, if this was my forum, I wouldn't let a big search engine company with questionable political motives push me around, censor free speech, or dictate terms to me about how I was going to run my site. But that's just me.

It's about his livelihood. Our bravado doesn't pay his bills or keep this site open.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 04-23-2016).]

Most of the Politics and Religion threads could be wiped without much loss. Sure, there has been some thought provoking discussion but it mostly turns into bickering. Wipe it clean.
The various "Girls" threads probably should go. Most of them are harmless but I remember some fairly risqué images being posted.
Is there a way to disable links to external sites? Or perhaps a White List of acceptable sites to link to? Sharing YouTube videos has become a thing, but YouTube (being part of Google) should be safe.

A one click link to "Report Post" is a good idea. The down side is I don't know of any solution like that that won't end up being abused by those who want to see the forum fail. I can easily see some disgruntled former members spending an afternoon flagging everything. Differing opinions would quickly get flagged (like negging the author). It might be good for a while to help clean up, but after a few weeks you might want to limit that ability only to "verified" members (however you define that).