Here is Little more info and some photos of the intake I am modding. You only see it for a moment in the video
On the left is a 3900 intake. Looks like rams horns. Not in my car. Long thin snout is not good for max power. I scraped it! On the right is a 3500, a better place to start I think. But can look and work better than stock.
Some of the ports are on the wrong side for a Fiero so I cut them out and made fillers
After welding and a little smoothing its time to ball mill the slots
I decided to go down some more just for looks.
This photo is kind of a bleary but I hope you can see it, the ball milling is done. When all of its done I'll paint the slots blue
I have a tube to do the throat and throttle body flange next
------------------ Sincerely George
[This message has been edited by fierogt4e (edited 06-06-2016).]
What that rams horn does is put most of the airflow on the middle intakerunners so that the edge/outer runners aren't starved for air like cylinders 1 and 2 typically are in prior designs...
lou_Dias “What that rams horn does is put most of the airflow on the middle intake runners”
Umm, ya.
“edge/outer runners aren't starved for air like cylinders 1 and 2 typically are in prior designs...”
Yes this is a problem in most intake manifolds. A large open plenum can sometimes help but may lose flow at some RPMs. Something that looks like a racing, equal length, exhaust header tends to work the best but they have limitations of there own. (looks, room...).
For those that are unfamiliar with this manifold it has a divider all the way down the middle, from just beyond the throttle body to the opposite end. The divider has an electronically controlled door that opens and closes to vary the size of the plenum. I believe the 3900 rams horn style was quickly discontinued do to poor performance in favor of the 3500 open plenum type manifold. (no variable plenum) However they have smallish throats also, good for a naturally aspirated engine with only 280 HP max.
Thanks 2.5 ------------------ Sincerely George
[This message has been edited by fierogt4e (edited 06-13-2016).]
Well, no one asked about the rear brakes but I'd like to tell you about them anyway.
Most of the parts that you can see came from Speedway Motors. The only parts I bought lately are the hat and rotor. Every thing ells was built prior to 97 when I had to put all the hobby stuff to the side.
The rotors are speedways own 12.18 OD, .810 wide, vented, cross drilled, and scalloped parts. I then tin/zinc plated them my self.
The hats are Wilwood's for a Subaru.
The main brake is a Howe Racing's aluminum, sliding caliper, unit with twin pistons.
The parking brake caliper is a wilwood part but under there badge it looks like an air-hart insignia. The cables are stock with a clevis from Lokar.
Stainless brake lines.
Stainless hardware from McMaster-Car.
As well as a new hub and bearing assembly.
All the brackets were fabbed by me and welded by a coworker.
At the center top of the picture you can only see a little bit of the McPherson strut mount. The two thick aluminum plates holding the spindle. They are part of a billet strut mount I made around 92 to move the strut in 1 inch for tire clearance, and it has many hard fast miles on it. The tops I moved in 1 1/4”.
I have 12” wide billet Weld Wheels with 315-17 35s on the back and in the fenders. The 12” rimes should have 335-17 on them but there were none in the US to buy from any one at the time.
Well, no one asked about the rear brakes but I'd like to tell you about them anyway.
Most of the parts that you can see came from Speedway Motors. The only parts I bought lately are the hat and rotor. Every thing ells was built prior to 97 when I had to put all the hobby stuff to the side.
The rotors are speedways own 12.18 OD, .810 wide, vented, cross drilled, and scalloped parts. I then tin/zinc plated them my self.
The hats are Wilwood's for a Subaru.
The main brake is a Howe Racing's aluminum, sliding caliper, unit with twin pistons.
The parking brake caliper is a wilwood part but under there badge it looks like an air-hart insignia. The cables are stock with a clevis from Lokar.
Stainless brake lines.
Stainless hardware from McMaster-Car.
As well as a new hub and bearing assembly.
All the brackets were fabbed by me and welded by a coworker.
At the center top of the picture you can only see a little bit of the McPherson strut mount. The two thick aluminum plates holding the spindle. They are part of a billet strut mount I made around 92 to move the strut in 1 inch for tire clearance, and it has many hard fast miles on it. The tops I moved in 1 1/4”.
I have 12” wide billet Weld Wheels with 315-17 35s on the back and in the fenders. The 12” rimes should have 335-17 on them but there were none in the US to buy from any one at the time.
Do you have a part # for those rotors? They look like the "lightened" Wilwood rotors I was trying to look up a couple years back. I think the measurements you mentioned are what I'm using but my hats are 5x4.75". This would be an nice upgrade for my race car to lower my rotating mass... I'm also using 315/35-R17's in the back...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 06-12-2016).]
Here are a couple pictures of that billet strut mount. Each one is carved out of of a single block by me. They grab the cartridge like a fist. And use a cartridge from a Honda I think but I lost the paper to tell me witch one. In the future I'd use a threaded unit I think.
There is a number of things to see here. The powder coated white tubular “A” arms are level with the ground . They were from Ryan motor sports. Now Arraut Motorsports I think .https://sites.google.com/site/motorsportsarraut/
If you look close you can see a red billet cradle mount that has been cut down to raise it so the “A” arm is flat. The front mount is modded to. Roddney's mounts
the Addco sway bar is mounted to the back to maintain ground clearance. It dose not go below the cradle. It was made to go on the bottom.
Oh ya the scag. The tapered body work behind the tire. I made molds to lengthen it about 4” by the tire, 9” at the back.
This is just the first fit up. I'm doing new hats, rotors, and calipers on the front. The rest has been installed a long time but it never got to the streets. I really like these hats with the taper and large scallops for cooling air, however I couldn't get them in the offset for the back. The same rotors but they had to be a little smaller to fit, 11 3/4”. Hats direct from Wilwood. Rotors and calipers are Wilwood, from Speedway.
oo la la
I made spacers in three sizes (1/8, 3/16, 1/4”,) to position the caliper correctly and others to get full thread engagement on the bolts and not protrude beyond the mount toward the rotor
tubular “A” arms, tubular sub-frame, and coil-overs by, then Ryan, now Arraut Motorsports I think. Part of the slalom kit. Sway bar is addco modified be me, and end links I made. ------------------ Sincerely George
[This message has been edited by fierogt4e (edited 06-24-2016).]
Saw your video a couple days ago, nice project ! Come to think of it I remember seeing your rear bumper and decklid a few years ago and wondered what ever happened to this project.
Lou Dias Yes they will replace “normal hats” with 8 at 7inch rotor mounts and smaller OD hubs. The wilwood site is difficult to navigate but will tell you every thing you would need to know. Grab the part number search all your parts sources. Be sure to check delivery times I've seen 6 weeks or more. You my find it for a little less and no shipping. Where do I find your Fiero race car?
Exoticse What happened? In short “life” or perhaps “OH F***” is more like it!!! I like your stuff I'll go back and check it out again.
My Son is working on two more videos coming soon.
The old motor going in until the new one if finished (two years). M19 trans.
------------------ Sincerely George
[This message has been edited by fierogt4e (edited 06-24-2016).]
Lou Dias Yes they will replace “normal hats” with 8 at 7inch rotor mounts and smaller OD hubs. The wilwood site is difficult to navigate but will tell you every thing you would need to know. Grab the part number search all your parts sources. Be sure to check delivery times I've seen 6 weeks or more. You my find it for a little less and no shipping. Where do I find your Fiero race car?
Exoticse What happened? In short “life” or perhaps “OH F***” is more like it!!! I like your stuff I'll go back and check it out again.
My Son is working on two more videos coming soon.
The old motor going in until the new one if finished (two years). M19 trans.
I know about life and the OH F*** part,..i am going thru that right now ! My own project has been on hold for awhile. All we can do is keep plugging away till things smooth out. Best of luck.
[This message has been edited by exoticse (edited 06-24-2016).]
Then I have a lot of racing videos on my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/loudfiero A general search on youtube for Seekonk Speedway Fiero will turn up a lot more.
Originally posted by fierogt4e: I believe the 3900 rams horn style was quickly discontinued do to poor performance in favor of the 3500 open plenum type manifold. (no variable plenum) However they have smallish throats also, good for a naturally aspirated engine with only 280 HP max.
I see you cut the neck off of the intake, what are you doing with it? I cut the net out of my LX9 3500 intake and welded in a 3" diameter pipe.
finished product:
this picture shows how GM attempted to improve air distribution in the LX9's open plenum, see the two broken walls, the come from the throttle body and send air back towards the cylinders furthest from the TB. on the gen 4 60v6, the big "V" notch far away from TB does it by eliminating dead space. I thought about doing the same thing to my intake when I put the neck in.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
ericjon262 I love seeing your work, and the two broken walls, the airs path back to cyl. 5 and 6 (closest to TB) is a long and winding trail.
Its been hard to get rock solid hot rodding info on this engine. I would like to push the NA power limits of this motor “Hard” but do it on a very tight budget.
I think an 80mm throttle body will be needed for the motor I'm planning. Hint; I have titanium LS valves. 70% off!
The tube I have is 3.750 ID. however it may be to big so I haven't moved forward with it. (3.250 ID maybe rite). Your info may be just in time. I've been puzzling over how to remove that inner part of the tube. My plenum has the big “V”. I will keep the top intact and mill it all away from the bottom and… um...lets see...hm.
I wish I could see smoke flow thru a clear top plenum and reel data on a powerful engine
I've only been doing things to the bolt on parts of the engine so far. The coolant crossover is striped of every thing not part of the coolant. Not much of the timing cover is left ether. Pump cut off, coolant lines milled away, cam phaser and housing gone. A removable cover will cover the cam sprocket. Threaded for hose nipple to the remote coolant pump are in place. Not even similar looking.
I have some internal parts I have found at sites that deal in used NASCAR parts and the like, that I intend to use. I was hoping to limit the time the engine was apart by getting parts collected first . Ya dumb I know. But I have lost faith in some of the info I mined with much effort from forums. Even when two or more claim the same thing. so Sunday I will take it all apart and check every thing my self. Every thing. And restart.
First is the block, after a hot tanking at my sons work it will come to mine so I can go over it with a CMM. (coordinate measuring machine), there is conflicting info about cylinder offsets. That I need to settle to my satisfaction!
If both cyl. Are moved away from the cam then the engine is a 63 degree V6 and should be an odd fire engine. 126, 114, 126, 114. Or are the crank throws offset to correct it like a Buick but much less. The crank grinder will need to know and so will I. However I have seen no mention of odd fire or crank offsets,
Anyone???
------------------ Sincerely George
[This message has been edited by fierogt4e (edited 06-28-2016).]
George, I've given lots of thought to your question of the bore offset, and I wish I could give you a straight answer, but I don't know. it's possible that the bores are still at 60* but just offset to the crank, but that would be really odd. I'm looking forward to seeing more of this build, but the looks of things you are ditching the vvt setup, is that so?
the new 99 mm (3.9 in) bore required offsetting the bores by 1.5 mm away from the engine centerline of each bank so yes, some are 6X degrees and others are 5X degrees
my engine rebuilder has one of these LZ4 engines for sale...I almost bought it until I noticed the cam phaser, I was mistaking it for an LX9... for some reason, the wiki links the LX9 engine on the same page as the LZ4 and LZ9... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Value_engine I guess electronic throttle was enough of a change to lump them together...
Originally posted by fierogt4e: My intention is to use a solid roller lifter and cam. So VVT is out. As is the plenum with a door.
You will not want to drive it in a city.
I'm kind of afraid to ask what the cam specs you're planning to use are. Are you trying to spin the thing to 10K RPM?
You're talking about getting peak N/A power, but with a budget, and then go on to talk about custom grind crank and solid roller valvetrain. I'm a bit confused.
the new 99 mm (3.9 in) bore required offsetting the bores by 1.5 mm away from the engine centerline of each bank so yes, some are 6X degrees and others are 5X degrees
my engine rebuilder has one of these LZ4 engines for sale...I almost bought it until I noticed the cam phaser, I was mistaking it for an LX9... for some reason, the wiki links the LX9 engine on the same page as the LZ4 and LZ9...
They are all high value platform engines. Why would one be on a different page?
I'm 99% sure the bank angle is still a straight 60*. I have a transmission support from an LZ4 bolted to my LX9. the support goes from the side of the block to the oil pan, if the angle was changed, it most likely wouldn't sit flush or bolt on like it did.
I see the “the new 99mm (3.9in) bore required offsetting the bores by 1.5mm (0.1in) away from the engine center line” repeated often. (1.5mm =.0590 in)
The bores are at 60 degrees to each other. When the piston are at tdc the rod angel would be more than 60 degrees.
I have never seen any mention of how they compensate for the change in the stock engine.
Some claim the wrist pin is offset “like in the LS motors”. In the LS one bank of pistons have the pin moved 1mm away from center line and the other bank 1mm towards the center line. I have a set. This will increase the difference in geometry from bank to bank when used in the LZ9 if the 1.5 outward is correct.
Should I be using 6 LS pistons all from the same side and turn 3 backwards??? this would reduce pin offsets to .5mm (.0197in) relative to the crank if the crank is ground at 120 degrees. If so I need to throw out 5 of my new Wiseco pistons and buy 3 more of the same side for all 6 to be the same! F***! F***!! F***!!!
Originally posted by fierogt4e: I see the “the new 99mm (3.9in) bore required offsetting the bores by 1.5mm (0.1in) away from the engine center line” repeated often. (1.5mm =.0590 in)
The bores are at 60 degrees to each other. When the piston are at tdc the rod angel would be more than 60 degrees.
I have never seen any mention of how they compensate for the change in the stock engine.
Some claim the wrist pin is offset “like in the LS motors”. In the LS one bank of pistons have the pin moved 1mm away from center line and the other bank 1mm towards the center line. I have a set. This will increase the difference in geometry from bank to bank when used in the LZ9 if the 1.5 outward is correct.
Should I be using 6 LS pistons all from the same side and turn 3 backwards??? this would reduce pin offsets to .5mm (.0197in) relative to the crank if the crank is ground at 120 degrees. If so I need to throw out 5 of my new Wiseco pistons and buy 3 more of the same side for all 6 to be the same! F***! F***!! F***!!!
If you are using offset wrist pin pistons, then you do not want the offset to both toward or away from center on both banks. You want the offset to be toward the major thrust wall of the cylinder (or opposite the crank rotation direction).
Are you using a custom rod with that CH or an OTS set? Ive been looking around for possible OTS solutions for my turbo LZ9 GN build, but haven't found much.
SleevePAPA ; If OTS means “off the self” than yes (mostly) also a little custom too.
http://www.speedwaymotors.c...-6-125-In,38265.html That”s the best picture however Jeg's is a few dollars less. I think I have finely found a new set at $60.00 less . I'll keep looking for 2 more weeks.
6.125 C to C, 2.000 big end, .927(?) small end. The big end needs to be thinned to .860. I can do that. The crank needs to be ground down to 2,000 from 2.250. For lightness. And the stroke reduced to3.290 from 3.307 for.010 above the deck. I haven't found high end thin 3900 head gadgets yet. Anyone?
The Michigan dismantle I bought this 06 motor from for a good price said it was new. That GM dropped it off the test stand. This was the last of 8 he bought years ago. I got it over a year ago. You can see no staining of the pickup screen or windage tray. The witness marks are still on the pump. Every thing inside and out says it's new.
The heads look good also, rockers are 1.7:1. I'll have to change them out for something adjustable. However I don't have a solid plain yet. Modify a set of full rollers (tips roll) to work. Stay tuned for that.
Too many pictures???
------------------ Sincerely George
[This message has been edited by fierogt4e (edited 07-02-2016).]
Wild!
