Ok, I decided to edit the schematic and show exactly what I have hooked up as far as vacuum lines. Hopefully someone will see something that is wrong, and I can correct it. I have not been able to find any vacuum leaks so far. All of the lines are brand new, as well as the tee's & connectors. As of now the throttle body vacuum port on the side is capped off.
number 7 (The port under the super charger snout) in the diagram is where 4 & 5 are connected to.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 01-20-2018).]
That diagram is perfect! The only thing missing that other Fiero swaps might have is the evap. On that topic, I am assuming that the evap solenoid hole on the trunk side of the supercharger is blocked off? Can't quite see it in the pictures. What do you have for the pcv setup? I see that the pcv fitting is capped, so are you running a crankcase breather?
[This message has been edited by Domtech (edited 01-20-2018).]
That diagram is perfect! The only thing missing that other Fiero swaps might have is the evap. On that topic, I am assuming that the evap solenoid hole on the trunk side of the supercharger is blocked off? Can't quite see it in the pictures. What do you have for the pcv setup? I see that the pcv fitting is capped, so are you running a crankcase breather?
Right now the evap solenoid is mounted to the SC. There were no wires on the FieroFlyer wiring harness for it, and I just capped off the vacuum port on it. As for a PCV, I honestly have no idea. I am pretty sure there is no crankcase breather.... at least I never set up something like that.
As I have mentioned, I am no mechanic, by any means. I have muddled through this swap with a lot of questions, and hours of YouTube videos
Edit to add: There is no emission testing in Florida, so I was not worried about not using some of the stuff. If however, there is something I have in place that is not, to make the engine run better, I would put that on for sure.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 01-20-2018).]
I purchased an egr blockoff plate from ZZP for the LIM. This pic shows the location it goes. I don't have a pic of it installed but it is just a rectangular plate.
I purchased an evap purge blockoff plate from a forum member, The location is seen here:
Here is the plate installed:
I also purchased a Crank Case Breather from ZZP seen here:
I am running the stock vacuum tree with stock PCV plate.
Your evap delete could be a minor issue if not accounted for in the tune, but if there isn't an error code for it then I assume it was.
The normal PCV setup has air flowing to the crankcase from after the MAF, but before the throttle plate (measured air, low vacuum). Air/oil vapors are then draw from the crankcase thru the PCV to the high vacuum before the supercharger Your setup is missing the connection from throttle to supercharger (the port pointing straight up), so there is no air inlet to the crankcase. This would cause the crankcase to be under vacuum at all times, you could test this with a piece of paper on the oil fill hole. Most people get around this by replacing the oil cap with a breather, but that means that the air pulled thru the PCV is not metered by the MAF sensor, and the tune should be adjusted to account for the extra air.
That still doesn't explain why your computer is trying to pull fuel.
Originally posted by Domtech: The normal PCV setup has air flowing to the crankcase from after the MAF, but before the throttle plate (measured air, low vacuum). Air/oil vapors are then draw from the crankcase thru the PCV to the high vacuum before the supercharger Your setup is missing the connection from throttle to supercharger (the port pointing straight up),
This is where my lack of mechanic ability shows. I totally understand the concept of pulling the vapors to be taken into the intake & burned off. I do not however, know how it is supposed to be setup. I found the vacuum port that is pointing straight up. Where is the other end of a hose connected to that port, supposed to go? You mentioned from throttle to super charger...... do you mean that nipple on the side of the throttle body, and then that goes to the port that is "straight up"?
I would like to hook this up as intended for the stock engine. I put my oil fill on the front facing valve cover to keep the facing side (towards the trunk) uncluttered. This makes a breather there impossible. So going back to a stock setup makes more sense.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 01-20-2018).]
That port that points up goes straight thru the supercharger and lower intake to the crankcase. On a series 3 it would connect to a special port on the drive by wire throttle that is before the throttle blade, but after the MAF.
On the series 2 throttle that connection was internal. There was a passage in the throttle that connected thru the throttle gasket directly to the supercharger. You appear to have a zzp adapter, which has no provision for a PCV. There are other adapters that do if you want that functionality back.
Now that I think about it... A breather could go anywhere connected to the crankcase, so the port on the supercharger would be a viable location to install one.
Originally posted by Domtech: On a series 3 it would connect to a special port on the drive by wire throttle that is before the throttle blade, but after the MAF.
On the series 2 throttle that connection was internal. There was a passage in the throttle that connected thru the throttle gasket directly to the supercharger.
When I bought the engine from a member in Alabama, he told me it came with a N* TB, and the adapter plate. I assumed this was correct all along, as I do not know the difference looking at them.
I am more confused by the day..... I was later told this was definitely not a N* throttle body, and after sending pictures to Ryan, he says it is a Series II. However it has the vacuum port on the side, and it is not internal. It certainly is not a Series III as it is not drive by wire.
Here is the port on my throttle body. I had a cap on it, and removed it to take this photo.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 01-21-2018).]
Thanks for the pictures, I can definately see the difference from the TB that I have.
So, my TB has the internal vacuum to vent the crank case then? So just keep the port facing up plugged, as well as the one on the side of the Series II TB and all is well?
Originally posted by JohnWPB: So, my TB has the internal vacuum to vent the crank case then?
No, not vacuum since it is pre throttle blade. just filtered air that has been measured by the MAF sensor.
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB: So just keep the port facing up plugged, as well as the one on the side of the Series II TB and all is well?
Unfortunately not. Even though that throttle has the internal passage, the supercharger does not. That's the source of the issue. I found this image on google that shows the difference:
The ebay link I posted above (here it is again) has some good pictures of how people usually plumb it without a breather.
I've been studying your Torque recording from last week, and here's what I've noticed:
No misfires are detected. (but you never really stepped on it)
Coolant wasn't quite up to temp, assuming you hadn't been driving long?
O2 sensor is a hard one to read, but it seemed to bouncing up and down nicely.
Yo fuel trims are whack!
The verdict: The PCM is pulling a ton of fuel, and the engine is running well (enough). This leaves 2 options:
Something was causing there to be too much fuel, but the PCM adjusted it down until it ran well.
The PCM thinks that it should be using more fuel, but it is wrong and adjusted down until it ran well.
Option 1 would mean one of the following:
The fuel pressure is too high.
The fuel pressure regulator is leaking into its vacuum line.
A fuel injector is stuck open. (would cause a misfire)
The fuel injectors are too large and delivering more than the PCM expects. (Tune is wrong)
Option 2 would mean one of the following:
A sensor is tricking the PCM into thinking it needs more fuel then it does. (CTS reading low, MAP/MAF reading high, etc)
There is less air going into the engine than the MAF is reading (I did notice way back in your build thread that you are missing the MAF screen, but it wouldn't make that much difference. IAC value might also be good to look at)
The tune is wrong.
While I definitely trust Darths tunes, that last one actually seems likely.
Because you are running a 99 MAF/throttle body, your engine is essentially the same tuning wise as a 99 series 2 but with a gen V supercharger. And since a Gen V is about the same as a Gen 3 with a .2 smaller pulley, a stock 99 PCM should run the engine just fine, with no tune.
If I were you, I'd find a 99 GTP PCM, plug it in and see what happens.
Sorry, I have not updated the thread in a while. I have not driven the car much for the past month or so.
quote
Originally posted by Domtech: Option 1 would mean one of the following:
The fuel pressure is too high.
The fuel pressure regulator is leaking into its vacuum line.
A fuel injector is stuck open. (would cause a misfire)
The fuel injectors are too large and delivering more than the PCM expects. (Tune is wrong)
The fuel pressure regulator is set to 53 PSI, and shows 53 psi on its gauge. Using a second gauge, I am getting 53 psi on the rail. Fuel injectors all worked well when I cleaned them on the bench with a 9v battery and brake cleaner. The fuel injectors are stock to this engine
quote
Originally posted by Domtech: Option 2 would mean one of the following:
A sensor is tricking the PCM into thinking it needs more fuel then it does. (CTS reading low, MAP/MAF reading high, etc)
There is less air going into the engine than the MAF is reading (I did notice way back in your build thread that you are missing the MAF screen, but it wouldn't make that much difference. IAC value might also be good to look at)
The tune is wrong.
While I definitely trust Darths tunes, that last one actually seems likely.
Because you are running a 99 MAF/throttle body, your engine is essentially the same tuning wise as a 99 series 2 but with a gen V supercharger. And since a Gen V is about the same as a Gen 3 with a .2 smaller pulley, a stock 99 PCM should run the engine just fine, with no tune.
If I were you, I'd find a 99 GTP PCM, plug it in and see what happens.
A sensor tricking it, is a distinct possibility. I have replaced just about every sensor on the engine, and all seem to show good readings in Torque The MAF screen is in place. I put a new IAC on, and it tested to be working flawlessly at startup, then adjusting correctly as the engine ran. The tune is possible.... HIGHLY unlikely, but possible. Darth programmed the PCM to my very specific engine, this throttle body, version 2 of the MAF sensor, the pulley size, gen IV blower ect. This is my second PCM actually. The original was stock, and not running well, so had a new one programmed by Darth. I swapped them out, and there was pretty much no change.
I am not sure where this leaves things now..... other than being very frustrated!
Ok, so when I got the car, it had soft brakes, as in can put the pedal almost to the floor. I replaced the rear calipers with new ones. I the upgraded the front to Grand AM brakes. Still soft brakes. I replaced the Booster with an S-10 booster. Still soft brakes. I changed to Stainless Steel lines on all 4 corners. Still soft brakes. I replaced the master cylinder, still soft brakes. A few weeks ago, it got worse to the point it is dangerous to drive, as the brakes are only working like 50%.
There is nothing on the braking system that has not been replaced....
Tonight, I was able to get the A/C lines hooked up. I pulled a -20 vacuum on the system, and it held for a half hour after turning off the pump. We hooked all the gauges up, charged the system, and I hopped inside and it was blowing ICE cold! 20 seconds later a loud hissing noise..... futzing around and trying to trace it, it was coming from the center of the car. Jacking it up and inspecting, the steel line blew a nice pin-size hole in the center of the car, just in front of the gas tank support bracket.
I mean seriously, who else here has has a steel A/C line rupture under the car? (FYI this is a southern car, and there is NO rust on her anywhere) I am still convinced that this car is some how cursed.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-12-2018).]
While the car sits again for while, as I try to keep repairing everything that keeps going wrong.....
I was toying around with adding some stripes to the car. I started out with just the blue car, then added the American Flag graphic to the back window, and like the whole Red, White and Blue theme.
I did this up in Photoshop to try to get an idea of how it would look using THESE STRIPES FROM AMAZON.
I am torn in what color to do the stripes in, and wanted to get some opinions. I am leaning towards the white, but it seems everyone does white when they add stripes, so I am contemplating the red as well.
What does anyone else think?
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-12-2018).]
Did you replace the front Grand Am calipers like we discussed? I wasn't sure if you just omitted it from the list or you haven't done them yet.
-Van
After we talked, I did buy new Grand AM calipers and brake pads. I prepped them, and painted them to install. My mechanic was here tonight. He said there is no way there can be a vacuum leak caused by the calipers going bad. He did say they could leak fluid with a bad seal ect, but that would be visible. The calipers are dry all around, and there are no stains on the driveway. I will go ahead and change them anyway now that I have them, and have painted them
Hey John, weighing in on the stripe option, I actually like the red. Its a pretty bright red, kinda orangish tint so it looks very good with your orange front marker lights. Secondly, seeing the bright red calipers you will be putting on, I think it will have a nice planned look to it. And also the red on the American flag fits in with it as well. Just my thoughts. The white looks good also, but I prefer the bright red for those reasons.
Also thanks for the detailed info on your keyless entry and push start. Definitely am going to do the same on mine!
Best of luck getting those last few issues sorted out.
You should clamp off all four brake hoses and see if you still have a soft pedal. If pedal is high and hard then take one clamp off each hose one at a time starting from r/r and see at which point the pedal drops at and your problem might be at that wheel. If everything checks out okay you probably have a stuck or bad proportioning valve.
The under-car A/C lines are thick wall aluminum. They are susceptible to corrosion, I've seen many of them fail.
Your brake problem could be caused by... OEM brakes on rear, improperly adjusted e-brake (do you use your e-brake)? Using stock master cylinder with front G/A, rear OEM
Add G/A to rear and install an early 90's S10 Blazer M/C...
I am torn in what color to do the stripes in, and wanted to get some opinions. I am leaning towards the white, but it seems everyone does white when they add stripes, so I am contemplating the red as well.
What does anyone else think?
If you did one of these, for sure the white is my opinion.
When a car is a color, I'm only a fan of eihter black, silver or white stripes. Or a ghost shade of the same color as the paint. But If I were you Id run it a few seasons, see how you like it and maybe do stripes later. A stripe to match your wheel color could look good.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 02-13-2018).]
It's too hard to multi quote posts from my phone so I'll try to address everything all together.
There is no way to clamp off the brake lines, as I have stainless steel brake lines on all four corners. Does anyone know if they make a little nipple that you can screw into the brake lines to block them off for testing purposes? If so what would such a creature be called? Actually that wouldn't work anyway! As soon as I unscrew the line, fluid is going to leak out, and there will be air in the line.
The master cylinder was bled correctly by Andrew, from Minnesota, and myself as far as I recall. I have bled quart after quart after quart of fluid through the system to make sure there's no air in the lines. I have no E-brake on my car.
Not To Doubt what you're saying at all Joe, but I've heard of quite a few people only replacing just the front calipers with the Grand Am, and not having an issue. I just hate to stand back and throw money at the car and hope the problem goes away.:-)
Lastly, what specific year range am I looking for to get the S-10 master cylinder? As soon as someone responds I will go ahead and order it as they're not expensive and will rule that out completely.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-13-2018).]
I used one from a 91. If you have OEM rear calipers, and no Ebrake, your rear calipers have no way to adjust (compensate for pad wear after initial drawdown on to the rear rotor).
When I did my 86, I did the fronts only, had crappy brakes, so the I added the rears and the proper bore size M/C. The brakes will put you through the windshield. I am still using the stock booster.
If you don't have an e brake anyway, you should put grand am brakes on your rear for better braking too, (you use the same front grand am brake parts), the only downside is losing a rear e brake you don't have anyway.
here is a snippet about the grand am swap: "When I took the car for a test drive with the new Blazer master cylinder and the upgraded front brakes (remember-the back brakes have not been touched) pedal travel and effort were similar to the stock Fiero before the upgrade. But, there was still too much front wheel pinch to make me happy with my bride behind the wheel.
So, I decided to go ahead and toss the emergency brake and put the Beretta stuff on the rear too. The backs are a direct bolt-on. No modifications are needed other than twisting the brake hose and storing the handbrake cables.
With new bakes on all four corners, a new master cylinder and fresh fluid, the little red car will stop on a dime. There is only one word to describe the changes experienced. ****AWESOME!!!**** For me, It was worth every penny spent. The overall cost was actually LESS than fixing and replacing the same parts with stock Fiero hardware. It is not hard to do." http://myfiero.oceanmoon.co...-fiero-brake-upgrade
Maybe post some pics of your brake parts on the car to help give us some perspective?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 02-13-2018).]
Ok, I know with 99% certainty that it is not the master cylinder (MC). I had really soft brakes a year or so ago, so I changed to another stock MC and there was no change in the pedal, still went to the floor.
How does that that give me 99% certainty, well I just installed a brand new S-10 MC I picked up at NAPA this afternoon. I watched 4 or 5 YouTube videos on lunch to familiarize myself with the MC bleeding procedure. I picked up the $10.00 syringe, as this seemed much more efficient than pushing the piston in the MC repeatedly while stabilizing the MC itself (Of all the tools I do have, a vise is not one of them).
No change at all in the brakes. I guess I will replace the front Grand AM brakes with the fresh shiny new red ones, paint up the old ones to match, and install them in the rear and see what happens.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-13-2018).]
One person has asked, and I don't see where you responded, unless I missed it, of course. Where are the bleeders on the G.A. calipers? You have to "flip sides" with the Grand Am calipers. In other words the right G.A. caliper goes on the left side of the Fiero and vice versa. Doing anything else will put the bleeders at the bottom, which is exactly the wrong orientation.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-15-2018).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I have no E-brake on my car.
Not sure what this means...
If you have stock Fiero rear calipers w/o the parking brake cables attached to them, then that is likely the problem. W/o using the parking brake, the calipers will not adjust for pad wear over time, so the pads end up being further and further away from the rotor, which takes more pedal travel to make contact, which will feel like a soft pedal until the pads make contact.
You can cycle the parking brake levers on the caliper by hand (with a wrench) and adjust the calipers so the pads are very close to the rotors but not touching or dragging. If you do this, the pedal will likely firm right up.
If you have front calipers on the rear (no parking brake function built into the calipers), then those self adjust for pad wear, which would mean your issue is air in the brake lines, most likely in the rear circuit (rear brakes provide the firmness to the pedal).
THe E-brake delete happened I did my first engine swap........ Swapping a blown 2.8 that my Fiero came with, to a 50,000 mile 2.8. In the process of dropping the cradle, it was determined that the e-brake cable was in the way. The bolt was completely rounded off, and completely rusted solid to top it off. The decision was made to track down the bolt cutters, for an impromptu E-Brake delete
I do have the Grand AM brakes swapped left to right in the front. I am told you can not bleed the brakes if I had the left caliper on the left side.
I totally understand the lack of auto adjusting in the back, I do, but am certain that it not the main problem here. A contributor for sure, and I intend on putting GA calipers on the back very soon. That being said.... Something more is definitely wrong besides the stock rear calipers. I can put my foot ALL the way to the floor, and clearly feel the pedal bottom out with a clunk. With the brake bottomed out, the car just slows down gradually, as if you were making a leisurely, almost rolling stop, at a stop sign. This is how the car is acting now.
Let me get the front calipers off, and the newly painted red ones on the front. I will then clean and paint the ones I took off the front, and put them in the rear. Once done, I can rule out calipers, booster and master cylinder completely, and I will go from there.
I have to assume that the mod to the front brake caliper bracket has already been done for you. The bracket was probably ground down 3 mm so it doesn't interfere with the rotor. Some people do grind down the caliper itself where it comes in contact with the bracket.
Don't forget to install with the bleeders up.You have to flip the calipers from the normal positioning. Install the Right GA caliper on the left side and conversely the Left GA caliper on the right side. Otherwise you will have problems bleeding the brakes.
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I totally understand the lack of auto adjusting in the back, I do, but am certain that it not the main problem here. A contributor for sure, and I intend on putting GA calipers on the back very soon. That being said.... Something more is definitely wrong besides the stock rear calipers. I can put my foot ALL the way to the floor, and clearly feel the pedal bottom out with a clunk. With the brake bottomed out, the car just slows down gradually, as if you were making a leisurely, almost rolling stop, at a stop sign. This is how the car is acting now.
That is exactly what happens when the rear caliper pads are too far from the rotor. All pedal movement is wasted moving the pads to the rotor, pressure and pedal feel doesn't happen until contact is made, and without pressure, you have no brakes. My guess is that if you looked at the pads on the rear brakes, at least one side likely has about 1/8" gap between the pad and the rotor.
Turns out I have a TINY pinhole leak in the SS brake line in the left rear. I never noticed it, as it was angled in such a way that it was spraying the inside of the rim when the brakes were applied. This is why I had no brake fluid on my driveway, as I have a slightly sloped driveway, and barely use the brakes when pulling in. The fluid that did leak, would get "spun off" from the rim while driving.
I have the new calipers on the rear, and I am on hold till I can get a new line. The Fiero store has them for $27, she just happened to have an orphaned single line in the stock room. The shipping is $15 for standard shipping. 2 day shipping would be $28! I LOVE the Fiero Store, and am so happy they are around, but what gives with the shipping charges! She explained that this is what the USPS is doing to them, as a business account. I just do not get it. I shipped a Camaro muffler to a forum member in Wisconsin with UPS. It was about 2 feet long and weight close to 20 pounds. It cost me $12.85 to ship it! That is less than a part that will fit in an envelope, and weighs only a few ounces.
Thinking it over, I Found one on Amazon for $12 with free 2 day shipping.
So, I get the hose delivered here on Friday for $3 less than JUST the shipping cost from the Fiero Store, and wouldn't get it next Tuesday.
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-14-2018).]
Turns out I have a TINY pinhole leak in the SS brake line in the left rear. I never noticed it, as it was angled in such a way that it was spraying the inside of the rim when the brakes were applied. This is why I had no brake fluid on my driveway, as I have a slightly sloped driveway, and barely use the brakes when pulling in. The fluid that did leak, would get "spun off" from the rim while driving.
I have the new calipers on the rear, and I am on hold till I can get a new line. The Fiero store has them for $27, she just happened to have an orphaned single line in the stock room. The shipping is $15 for standard shipping. 2 day shipping would be $28! I LOVE the Fiero Store, and am so happy they are around, but what gives with the shipping charges! She explained that this is what the USPS is doing to them, as a business account. I just do not get it. I shipped a Camaro muffler to a forum member in Wisconsin with UPS. It was about 2 feet long and weight close to 20 pounds. It cost me $12.85 to ship it! That is less than a part that will fit in an envelope, and weighs only a few ounces.
Thinking it over, I Found one on Amazon for $12 with free 2 day shipping.
So, I get the hose delivered here on Friday for $3 less than JUST the shipping cost from the Fiero Store, and wouldn't get it next Tuesday.
USPS is really hurting small business with their prices. I've been saying for a while that TFS should start selling through Amazon as an affiliate. Try to get in on that free 2 day shipping with prime and such. Not sure how involved that is from their end though.
